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freshwest

(53,661 posts)
11. Thanks very much for the excellent OP. I found the LATimes piece and the links from there, great.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 11:52 AM
Apr 2014

Also the Understanding Svoboda piece is very informative on the mindset there that we have not often seen explained. Like the LATimes pieces, these are so much better written, and the media much more rounded than what is presented on American television, that it is heartening to read things spoken with reason and facts rather than emotional appeals and slogans, beating the reader over the head with triggers and dog whistles.

Regarding what is going on in Ukraine and Russia, it is not dissimilar and mentions a generic fascism. When you read closely the history of the Cossacks in the area, I think the roots of what we in the west call backward in our economic push, is a real thing to them and we must remember these are real people living this reality, it is not dead history to them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Cossacks#Imperial_Russia

I don't see much difference in the generic sense of what Koch funded groups who represent the solid red rural areas in our nation and the views that we are taking Russia to task for now. The white supremacist, racist, anti-Semitic, anti-public worker, anti-union, anti-gay, anti-reproductive freedom, anti-science, anti-emigrant and anti-public education, pro-Christianist, cronyism, nepotism and the other anti-democratic ideas they believe define their lives and their success, and the ownership of land to be used however they choose, including factory farming, oil and mining or fracking that urbanites abhor, they see as their right. So they vote for things we despise.

The article from 2008 is in synch with what I learned from Russian nationals I knew in the early years of this century. A lot of the fallout of what we see today came of the aggressive, shredding policy of Cheney. From them I learned that Russia had decided to go its own way after their initial support from 9-11, as they saw a similarity in their view, to what they were experiencing. These views were from those who had lost family in terrorist acts and pushed the limits of the modern social model they thought they would have.

There was a lot of business going back and forth from American oil workers and other business including the aerospace industry during that time. This is only from my extended familial view and friends, who really were not into politics. The people I know in our country were very positive about Russia, with family in Kiev and Moscow both, and for most of their lives they felt there was no conflict looming. They were, and are still, as the article on Dugan says was one of his complaints against Putin in the past, very pro-American, having met many Americans, they have moved here and they love this country. For them, the Cold War is over, and Russia is in their rear view mirror except for concerns about relatives still there.

Others living in Moscow felt that western actions in Kosovo and Georgia were wrong from their point of view and a humanitarian crisis that the West has not been fully informed, from their side. It's a complex relationship that has not been working as it should and they felt they were the victims of the west.

I still think that the USA is a babe in the woods dealing with this ancient part of the world, as there are blood feuds and alliances in that part of the world that have nothing to with our view of the world being divided into nation-states. They see that as a recent invention. It's hard for us, with only a few centuries of history to get a grasp on the connections of the thousands of years of shared histories over there.

It is sad that what could have been a more positive outcome in these events is not what is going on now.

Once again, thank you for bringing so much together from good sources. I was unable to access all of them, but what I saw was better than most information we are getting.

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