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Tommy_Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
96. I do think the US has/had favored and disfavored players in Ukraine.
Tue Feb 10, 2015, 10:51 AM
Feb 2015

I.e. people they would prefer to deal with and people they would prefer not to deal with. And that came out in some of the State Department communications.

However, that said, I do not think they played any active role in changing the regime. I think the US was very encouraged by Maidan because Yanukovych was not a favored player and the hope was that a break from him would be for the better. (Undoubtedly a risky proposition that has not always played out well for us.) But Maidan ultimately succeeded not because the US intervened in it, but rather because of Yanukovych's own efforts to suppress it. And the more Yanukovych pushed, the protesters on Maidan pushed back, to the point where Yanukovych determined he didn't want to be Ceausescu'ed, that he was still a very wealthy man and could live very nicely as a private citizen somewhere else (somewhere else being Russia.) So he literally packed up his bags and left.

But yes, I will admit as far as I think the US had people it would prefer to be running the show, specifically folks who would represent a break from the old oligarch line that you seen in Russia and towards a much more western oriented governing approach. And that's why I think Yatsenyuk struck such a chord with the US. Because while he's by no means your common everyday man off the street, he's likewise not the old oligarch guard, either. He's fairly young, flies regular commercial airlines (as opposed to private jets), stands in line with the commoners to vote, has advocated for financial and governmental oversight, and clearly struck a chord with the people on Maidan still without making himself out to be an ultra-nationalistic firebrand. So it's a no-brainer that he became a favored figure that the US wanted to see rise to the top in Ukraine. Now, what some people mistake as the US State Department "hand picking" Yatsenyuk based on the infamous Nuland-Pratt phone call really didn't amount to anything closely as nefarious. It's best analogy would be that of fantasy football fans picking their rosters to lead their fantasy (read: not real) teams. They simply had no ability to actually pick the Ukrainian government for them, no matter how much some people think.

Interestingly enough, while Yatsenyuk did end up as prime minister, the man who was elected President--Petro Poroshenko--represents something closer to the old guard in terms of Ukrainian government. He is, after all, an oligarch with a lot of wealthy assets. That being said, he has pledged reforms, but it's too early to tell how far he'll go through on them. But you can also say the fact that Ukrainians chose to replace one oligarch (Yanukovych) with another (Poroshenko) runs contrary to the argument that the US was deeply involved in picking Ukraine's leaders, since such a subtle change would arguably not be worth all the trouble.

My fellow comrades remember William769 Feb 2015 #1
Carcetti is good at it. eh? RobertEarl Feb 2015 #3
Care to tell me where I'm lying? nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #10
For starters: ''Robert Parry is a liar when it comes to Ukraine.'' Octafish Feb 2015 #16
He continues to label what happened last year a "coup" when there was no coup. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #21
It wasn't a 'coup'; it was a 'putsch,' spearheaded by the shock troops of KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #99
A putsch is a type of coup. Specifically, one that uses violence in its execution. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #101
I have absolutely no idea what 'video' you're referring to. Frankly, your reference to KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #102
Sigh. It's actually posted here in this thread (Response 62), plus many, many times before. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #103
Here's where I'm confused Ichingcarpenter Feb 2015 #28
They released pictures of artillery in Russian territory firing into Ukraine. jeff47 Feb 2015 #41
link please Ichingcarpenter Feb 2015 #49
. jeff47 Feb 2015 #53
The 'GRAINY' photographs, Ichingcarpenter Feb 2015 #56
They're not going to release the highest resolution to the public jeff47 Feb 2015 #58
the world is not asking for the best Ichingcarpenter Feb 2015 #64
And if "tiny dots" were the reason it was rejected, that would be relevant. jeff47 Feb 2015 #65
+1,000,000! nt. polly7 Feb 2015 #44
redbaiting is so right wing. the "comrade" crap is tired, the cold war is over. m-lekktor Feb 2015 #6
Anyone who believes that "homophobic jackass" is a fool. Cha Feb 2015 #91
Yep, and Putin, former KGB officer, knows that better than anyone. nt stevenleser Feb 2015 #71
His MH17 coverage was a sad joke Duckhunter935 Feb 2015 #2
Why did the BBC remove this so quickly? polly7 Feb 2015 #4
+1000 Excellent find! nationalize the fed Feb 2015 #8
Probably because it wasn't verifiable information. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #9
Ahhh ........... so all those citizens were lying? polly7 Feb 2015 #13
You're talking about two random women. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #14
Watch the video. polly7 Feb 2015 #15
All definitive signs indicate it was shot down by a SAM and Parry's claims are bullocks. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #33
I trust the citizens living there who saw what they saw. polly7 Feb 2015 #36
They saw exactly what happened at 40,000 feet? jeff47 Feb 2015 #42
See the video. They were quite sure what they saw. polly7 Feb 2015 #46
I'm saying their eyes are not 6 feet apart. jeff47 Feb 2015 #54
Interesting. How come there is no final conclusion forthcoming from all the investigations? Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #78
Yes, that's strange, isn't it? polly7 Feb 2015 #80
Puzzling, puzzling, puzzled. I am much puzzled and troubled by the failure of technology. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #81
The truth sometime is bitter OverseaVisitor Feb 2015 #5
I was watching a live video feed of the events in Odessa as they happened. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #12
Then watch this OverseaVisitor Feb 2015 #18
What happened in Odessa last May was tragic. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #24
The Genocide OverseaVisitor Feb 2015 #30
Wow! Thanks. elias49 Feb 2015 #32
Parry completely ignores the fact that prior to the trade union fire and earlier that afternoon.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #35
Let's see where this press conference goes. elias49 Feb 2015 #43
Nice deflection. nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #47
Whatever... elias49 Feb 2015 #50
I don't know. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #52
The video that Overseas Visitor Oilwellian Feb 2015 #69
I really can't comment much about any theories put forth by Storm Clouds Gathering. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #72
Serious problems OverseaVisitor Feb 2015 #77
You didn't really answer my question Oilwellian Feb 2015 #84
I'm implying that for whatever reason, pro-Ukrainian protesters were shot at. That's undeniable. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #85
Hopefully enough wake up OverseaVisitor Feb 2015 #39
Now that's funny. : - ) nt. polly7 Feb 2015 #19
Care to elaborate, Polly? nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #22
Nope. polly7 Feb 2015 #23
You contribute so much to this website. nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #25
Ohhhh, thank you. polly7 Feb 2015 #27
You mean we either believe everything or nothing? treestar Feb 2015 #20
Has the U.S. ever done coups before? That is the first question I would ask, is there dissentient Feb 2015 #7
But the facts clearly indicate there was no coup in Ukraine for the US to sponsor. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #11
Oh, there certainly was. polly7 Feb 2015 #17
What sort of coup is it when the leader takes 3 days to pack up his luxury items... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #26
I've answered you on this at least three times. polly7 Feb 2015 #29
Your mastery of the English language is extraordinary, Polly. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #31
Why thank you. polly7 Feb 2015 #34
Your opinion isn't definitive on things. Words have definitions for a reason. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #37
You can't claim people can't fucking see what's happened with their own polly7 Feb 2015 #40
And yet I can show you a video of a leader calmly packing non-essential luxury items... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #45
He was a lucky man, that he had time to leave the way he did. polly7 Feb 2015 #51
But your going against the "sudden" element of a coup. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #55
Sorry, had to go pull out a backhoe .... polly7 Feb 2015 #66
You certainly know how to beg a question, Polly. nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #67
I don't beg anything, and hey ....... I have videos too! polly7 Feb 2015 #73
You're also quite skilled at cooking up red herring. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #87
show your video then. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #59
Certainly. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #62
Gee, seems like there are a lot of coups where the former head of state has time to get ND-Dem Feb 2015 #57
A big difference, IMHO. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #60
"with no real coordinated scheme to oust the leader" ND-Dem Feb 2015 #61
As to the specific method of ouster, that's a key distinguishing point. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #63
Have coups ever happened without US intervention before? jeff47 Feb 2015 #48
"The US has been responsible for coups before; NuclearDem Feb 2015 #68
O.M.G. 2banon Feb 2015 #38
DU rec for pissing off the Putin boot-lickers...nt SidDithers Feb 2015 #70
DU unrec to SidDithers for his juvenile name-calling, ad nauseum. nt. polly7 Feb 2015 #74
Apparently Chancellor Merkel and President Hollande would be called the same. We have good company. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #79
War, the world just needs more war! polly7 Feb 2015 #82
K&R uhnope Feb 2015 #75
A Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup polly7 Feb 2015 #76
That piece has glaring inaccuracies that render it completely bullshit. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #86
Parry and Cohen have done a disservice to the topic. Jefferson23 Feb 2015 #83
No links? Folks really should have some idea of what you're referring to in snappyturtle Feb 2015 #88
Putting all three of those pieces together, Parry mentions the word "coup" 26 times. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #89
This message was self-deleted by its author snappyturtle Feb 2015 #104
Many use the dreaded "c" word. snappyturtle Feb 2015 #105
Many people repeat the things they hear on Fox News and Rush Limbaugh. Does that make them right? Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #106
We can argue forever about the 'correct' chronology. The fact remains that snappyturtle Feb 2015 #107
We can argue, but the facts are pretty settled, thanks to the video. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #108
Well, I guess Yanukovych read the lay of the land correctly. snappyturtle Feb 2015 #109
He made a calculated decision. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #113
I agree. nt snappyturtle Feb 2015 #114
Oh, and another thing from one of your links: Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #90
Robert Parry is stuck on "coup".. must like that word. Does it get him a lot of clicks? Cha Feb 2015 #92
Well, if anything, I guess he's consistent. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #97
He's tapped into the anti-USA well.. he knows how well it plays and his fans don't seem Cha Feb 2015 #115
Smith Mundt Modernization Act Octafish Feb 2015 #112
K Cha Feb 2015 #93
I think there was a Nuland tape JonLP24 Feb 2015 #94
I do think the US has/had favored and disfavored players in Ukraine. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #96
The next guys in charge did the same thing and more for the Ukrainian revolution protestors JonLP24 Feb 2015 #98
I appreciate the well-stated response, but your timeline is way off. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #100
Kick...nt SidDithers Feb 2015 #95
Robert Parry is a treasure, and he's been proven right so many times it scares polly7 Feb 2015 #110
How exactly has he been "proven right" about anything regarding Ukraine? Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #118
You're the one who's so obsessed with stalking him and polly7 Feb 2015 #119
+1 Blue_Tires Feb 2015 #111
He did some excellent investigative journalism in the 1980s. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #116
Kick...nt SidDithers Feb 2015 #117
kick Blue_Tires Feb 2015 #120
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