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blackspade

(10,056 posts)
84. What, austerity or collapse?
Mon Jun 29, 2015, 01:22 PM
Jun 2015

The other options require outside help, or withdrawal from the EU.
And why the hostility to democracy?

Perhaps you should read up on Argentina, it does seem like a happening place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Argentina

The socio-economic situation in Argentina has been steadily improving. The economy nearly doubled from 2002 to 2011, growing an average of 7.1% annually and around 9% for five consecutive years between 2003 and 2007.[3] Even using higher private inflation estimates, real wages rose by around 72% from their low point in 2003 to 2013.[39] The global recession did affect the economy in 2009, with growth slowing to nearly zero;[3] but high economic growth then resumed, and GDP expanded by around 9% in both 2010 and 2011.[3] Foreign exchange controls, austerity measures, persistent inflation, and downturns in Brazil, Europe, and other important trade partners, contributed to slower growth beginning in 2012, however.[40] Growth averaged just 1.3% from 2012 to 2014.[2]

The Argentine government bond market is based on GDP-linked bonds, and investors, both foreign and domestic, netted record yields amid renewed growth.[41] Argentine debt restructuring offers in 2005 and 2010 resumed payments on the majority of its almost $100 billion in defaulted bonds and other debt from 2001.[42]


And Puerto Rico....You do realize that it is part of the US, not a foreign country?

As for failed leadership, well, that cuts both ways, and thus far only the Greek people are suffering from the "inevitable pain" which has not been delayed at all.
Capitalism has failed. Time for a new model (Socialism). - nt KingCharlemagne Jun 2015 #1
I don't think this illustrates the failure of capitalism FlatBaroque Jun 2015 #10
Distinction without a difference, imo - nt KingCharlemagne Jun 2015 #12
Allows people who don't want to admit/address the problem.... daleanime Jun 2015 #15
My, aren't you bright and intuitive FlatBaroque Jun 2015 #22
It would be nice if I thought so...... daleanime Jun 2015 #36
EXCELLENT analysis Skittles Jun 2015 #119
Hey, you're one post away from 10000! BeanMusical Jun 2015 #121
You are stating that Capitalism as a socio-enonomic system FlatBaroque Jun 2015 #25
If 'private central banking' is failing, then so is capitalism, as the two are KingCharlemagne Jun 2015 #26
EU is a group of capitalist bankers running the economies of all of Europe. Kind of like a small jwirr Jun 2015 #57
OK the failure of unregulated capitalism Vincardog Jun 2015 #110
That's the one I would go with. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #123
same same Vincardog Jun 2015 #131
So why are they looking for money from hughee99 Jun 2015 #27
lulz snort Jun 2015 #45
The failure of an explicitly socialist economy vindicates socialism? Recursion Jun 2015 #55
That's certainly what Breitbart, the National Review, and Bill O'Reilly believe Nevernose Jun 2015 #60
They aren't particularly "capitalist" either Recursion Jun 2015 #67
You call Stalin's purges and China's great famine capitalist propaganda in other threads jeff47 Jun 2015 #93
Test for you: exactly how many died in 'Stalin's purges'? With source(s), please - nt KingCharlemagne Jun 2015 #95
Test for you: Why should I give a damn about your tests? jeff47 Jun 2015 #107
You're just spouting the same old tired anti-Soviet propaganda without KingCharlemagne Jun 2015 #108
According to Alexander Solzhenitsyn it was between 1.6 million and 10 million riderinthestorm Jun 2015 #109
Capitalist propaganda? So it didn't happen, millions of people didn't die... BeanMusical Jun 2015 #122
The problem is, it wont work. cstanleytech Jun 2015 #117
K&R abelenkpe Jun 2015 #2
K&R Starry Messenger Jun 2015 #3
That simple malaise Jun 2015 #4
And the neo-conservative ideology with it. eom Betty Karlson Jun 2015 #7
Both are Con jobs malaise Jun 2015 #9
Quite so. n/t Betty Karlson Jun 2015 #37
What would Goldman think of that? Octafish Jun 2015 #5
just threw up a little in my mouth magical thyme Jun 2015 #24
Greg Palast stares unblinking into the darker corners, doesn't he? GliderGuider Jun 2015 #31
Unfortunately Stiglitz has no seat at the table. pa28 Jun 2015 #90
The voice of reason .. ananda Jun 2015 #6
But Greece has no responsibility. randome Jun 2015 #8
The alternative is much worse Lydia Leftcoast Jun 2015 #13
+1 hifiguy Jun 2015 #16
Other governments own the vast majority of Greek debt hack89 Jun 2015 #86
Countries should NOT have that same option. randome Jun 2015 #18
Excellent Post sub.theory Jun 2015 #33
"Get away with shirking its debts" - care to elaborate on what that phrase means? - nt KingCharlemagne Jun 2015 #127
So are you saying that countries should never be forgiven their debts? blackspade Jun 2015 #68
Then why isn't Greece taking one of those other options? randome Jun 2015 #83
What, austerity or collapse? blackspade Jun 2015 #84
And FURTHERMORE Lydia Leftcoast Jun 2015 #130
Don't forget the N. European bankers who threw money JCMach1 Jun 2015 #125
People are dying in Greece over this fraudulent and mistaken austerity plan. riderinthestorm Jun 2015 #17
What's worse than austerity? I think Greece is about to find out. randome Jun 2015 #29
Or the troika could man up, forgive the debt and help. riderinthestorm Jun 2015 #43
I don't understand this idea that the greedy bankers want to lose all their money. randome Jun 2015 #59
They gambled and.lost. Unless they want the shit in their own bed riderinthestorm Jun 2015 #62
Stupid often is found in the company of greed. nt ladjf Jun 2015 #105
greece is effectively insolvent. we have bankruptcy proceeding for this, not debtors' prisons. unblock Jun 2015 #32
Well, that seems to have some merit to it. Not that I understand economics much. randome Jun 2015 #35
When a ship is headed for the rocks sulphurdunn Jun 2015 #47
The 1% long ago fled their wealth sub.theory Jun 2015 #51
Funny. You were all for forgiving Wall St brentspeak Jun 2015 #73
"Loan" them money, not just give it to them. The U.S. made a profit on much of it, anyways. randome Jun 2015 #75
Did the millions of people who lost their jobs and homes brentspeak Jun 2015 #77
not a bad idea SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2015 #114
Easy to be generous with $300 Billion of someone else's money. nt geek tragedy Jun 2015 #11
Didn't harm the world financial markets for more than a blip Lydia Leftcoast Jun 2015 #14
Why would Greece defaulting create more than a blip then? geek tragedy Jun 2015 #21
The matter of physics snort Jun 2015 #48
so the ditch digger in Germany shouldn't have to work longer geek tragedy Jun 2015 #50
The ditch digger in Greece actually works more. PETRUS Jun 2015 #58
He's also making more money in Greece Recursion Jun 2015 #116
That's not true. PETRUS Jun 2015 #126
I'll check but I'm pretty sure OECD doesn't use PPP Recursion Jun 2015 #128
If found data that did use PPP and data that didn't. PETRUS Jun 2015 #129
Which is more important? daleanime Jun 2015 #19
For the people who are owed the $300 Billion? geek tragedy Jun 2015 #23
The people who lent them the money should have known better. fasttense Jun 2015 #39
So if no one lends money to Greece going forward (and they'd be nuts for geek tragedy Jun 2015 #41
I'm not sure I understand your scenario fasttense Jun 2015 #46
Tariffs were enough to fund a de minimis federal government in the 18th century geek tragedy Jun 2015 #49
You would not have to borrow if the banks belonged to the country and were NOT privatized. fasttense Jun 2015 #56
The austerity is already creating a depression of that magnitude so what now? TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #64
Rule #1: Never assume things can't get worse. They probably will nt geek tragedy Jun 2015 #70
You stated it was a choice. I'm saying both choices seem to have the same results TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #89
The results for Greece are going to be awful no matter what. geek tragedy Jun 2015 #91
Maybe it's because Germany was the benificiary of debt reduction and forgiveness themselves? blackspade Jun 2015 #69
Why does Greece deserve a gigantic handout while Bulgaria and Romania geek tragedy Jun 2015 #72
Maybe because it's the right thing to do? blackspade Jun 2015 #80
You haven't explained why Greece is more deserving than geek tragedy Jun 2015 #87
Why should I answer that question? blackspade Jun 2015 #88
Because Germany is not sitting on top of an infinite amount of cash. geek tragedy Jun 2015 #92
Well, there you have it then. blackspade Jun 2015 #97
That presumes that Greece is indispensable to the EU surviving. geek tragedy Jun 2015 #98
That was then, this is now. GliderGuider Jun 2015 #99
Yes, so have the finance ministers of the Eurozone countries. Which is why they did the bailouts of geek tragedy Jun 2015 #101
Your understanding of the issue is one demential. blackspade Jun 2015 #100
Actually, Spain and Portugal are not nearly in as bad of shape in terms geek tragedy Jun 2015 #102
The real question is who got the money, and who is being asked to repay it. hedgehog Jun 2015 #20
THIS Lydia Leftcoast Jun 2015 #28
Excellent questions. truebluegreen Jun 2015 #30
Actually, there are other questions too.... daleanime Jun 2015 #40
You mean like what happened during the sub-prime bubble? GliderGuider Jun 2015 #74
+1 daleanime Jun 2015 #79
Yes, and who benefits from the privatization of public assets. suffragette Jun 2015 #94
Lets not forget the Global Octopus / Hedge Funds ..................... turbinetree Jun 2015 #34
Austerity was/is a stupid policy. Loaning a country more money (as a stimulus) to solve a problem of pampango Jun 2015 #38
Well I suppose liquidity needed to be injected into the crashed Greek economy fasttense Jun 2015 #42
Greece is still resisting taxing its shipping companies geek tragedy Jun 2015 #52
With one side of their mouth the EU nations say tax your shipping corporations and with the other fasttense Jun 2015 #61
I think it's pretty clear that the Grexit is the only solution--no sense in staying in a failed geek tragedy Jun 2015 #63
EU governments may see Grexit as a security issue, sending Greece into Russian or Turkish orbits. freshwest Jun 2015 #82
Turkey is still a member of NATO. geek tragedy Jun 2015 #85
No, I wasn't suggestng a war would take place between them again. But in their sphere of influence, freshwest Jun 2015 #96
Because when everyone is getting what they want, everything is fine The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #54
K/R Jack Rabbit Jun 2015 #44
Forgive debt and get more money? The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #53
lets say the EU forgave all the loans to greece. rdking647 Jun 2015 #65
Unfortunately nothing will change until blackspade Jun 2015 #66
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jun 2015 #71
It's extremely hard for a leadership in Greece to form around a platform of neccessary changes Babel_17 Jun 2015 #76
Remember that the enthusiasm for austerity may be based on an Excel error GliderGuider Jun 2015 #78
The Troika is the lastest incarnation of the vampire squid GliderGuider Jun 2015 #81
It's funny how our resident conservatives BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #103
do you know hill2016 Jun 2015 #111
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Jun 2015 #104
Bazinga. nt SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #113
Ya wanna destroy the EU? DonCoquixote Jun 2015 #106
How these bigwigs expect SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #112
The Troika is victim of its own pride. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #115
Excerpt from Guardian - Stiglitz commentary asiliveandbreathe Jun 2015 #118
"They have criminal responsibility" BeanMusical Jun 2015 #120
Yeah, but punishing people for being poor feels soooo good to the rich assholes who run everything. Scuba Jun 2015 #124
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