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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
5. I'm aware that a large group of Labour politicians before Corbyn came along
Mon Jun 19, 2017, 10:38 PM
Jun 2017

were joining the Tories in the poorbashing hysteria...that was despicable and unforgiveable...it was the outrage about that among the Labour rank-and-file that led to Jeremy's upset victory in the leadership contest. Corbyn can't be blamed for words of betrayal that were said before he was elected leader.

If Labour fights now to stop Brexit and its vote goes down, which is what would have to happen, what is achieved?

In answer to your question Labour will be able to spend whatever it needs to spend after Brexit...The EU didn't exist when Labour created the post-war social welfare state, after all. And there are no EU member countries where social welfare spending isn't being relentlessly and savagely slashed. Implementing pro-worker legislation is impossible within the EU. Look at what happened to Holland just for trying to bring in a 35-hour week...a bare minimum measure for the protection of worker's rights. Macron, his successor, is now going to "reform" labor laws-i.e., eliminating job security and removing most legislation that gives working people any protection at all from injustice in the work place.

If there had ever been any chance, or ever could be any chance, of establishing the space for social democracy with EU membership, you'd have a case. But we both know that space can never exist-people like Merkel will run the EU forever and they will forever bloc any egalitarian measures.

And the Social Charter is now basically a meaningless remnant, thanks to the mandatory spending limits. It no longer offers any meaningful protection to the working or kept-from-working poor in terms of their economic rights.

In spite of this, I supported Remain on anti-xenophobia grounds and would do so again. But we're past the time when the EU can or will do anything to fight xenophobia or any other form of bigotry, and it will always be on the side of the rich against the workers, so really, at this stage, what's to like?

The work now should be to create a European economic alliance from below...an alliance run for the good of the working and non-working poor in Europe. Why not move on to working for that, rather than trying to salvage what can't BE salvaged?

Why insist on trying to save Remain, when Remain CAN'T be Remain and Rebel, when the EU will always be exactly like it is now, no matter what?

At this point, a new fight to stay in the EU can only be a fight for the interest of the billionaires of Britain. The EU is no longer a way to fight xenophobia or protect anyone's rights in the UK.

The way to beat May is to mobilize the mass opposition to her austerity proposals and the outrage that has arisen from her party's handling(all the way down to the council level)of the Grenfell tragedy-not by restarting a battle most people in the UK see as over and see as having nothing any longer to do with their lives. It's no longer possible to make a left-wing case for going back.

I'd have a bit more respect for the arguments there... Ken Burch Jun 2017 #1
Ha, wondered when you'd be along. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #2
Is there any possible honorable way for Labour to go full-on anti-Brexit at this point? Ken Burch Jun 2017 #3
OK, I'll try to take this para by para. But first your OP line: Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #4
I'm aware that a large group of Labour politicians before Corbyn came along Ken Burch Jun 2017 #5
Do you have any idea the economic mess the UK was in before it joined the EC? Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #6
What was done to Greece is what will be done to ANY left government under the EU. Ken Burch Jun 2017 #7
You mentioned the Attlee example simply because you don't have any answer at all Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #8
There is some pretty good stuff in Labour's platform... T_i_B Jun 2017 #9
Thanks, T_i_B. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #10
The reason why they can get away with it right now.... T_i_B Jun 2017 #11
"white van man", not "white can man" Ken Burch Jun 2017 #12
Dude, if you're going to pick on an obvious typo Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #13
Sorry, the "can man" thing was meant as a joke Ken Burch Jun 2017 #14
Read this thread here: Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #15
I know the routine. And I'd have voted Remain. Ken Burch Jun 2017 #16
See, for you it's the luxury of being a hypothetical issue. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #17
This is pretty much the same argument.... T_i_B Jun 2017 #18
Well, the Labour manifesto's carefully worded. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #19
I'm not "rabid anti-EU". I support them on the parts of what they do that are progressive. Ken Burch Jun 2017 #25
Well, "Jeremy" must be a grave disappointment to you. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #27
I'm fine with what Corbyn's doing there. I've never been rabidly anti-EU and you know it. Ken Burch Jun 2017 #28
First of all, I do agree that the Remain campaign was very poor; that if it had been better we might LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #29
"I think your feelings about Corbyn are driven by he apparent Labour-Tory cooperation in Scotland." Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #30
OK, I withdraw the word "apparent"...I use that word to mean "essentially proved" Ken Burch Jun 2017 #32
Well, if he stopped telling blatant lies about the SNP's record in government when he comes up here Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #33
You are assuming that the two are separable LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #21
'All it can lead to is lost seats...' LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #22
While I do not defend the EU's treatment of Greece, it was not mainly an ideological assault LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #23
You seem not to have noticed that Denmark now has a right-wing, anti-immigrant government Ken Burch Jun 2017 #26
So the EU's responsible for the choices of the Danish electorate? Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #31
'The EU didn't exist when Labour created the post-war social welfare state' LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #24
Good article! LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #20
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