Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Bearware

(151 posts)
11. It can be a mistake to assume current costs to make something apply directly to disruptive tech
Mon Sep 23, 2019, 01:57 AM
Sep 2019

Last edited Mon Sep 23, 2019, 03:05 PM - Edit history (1)

The best example I can think of is SpaceX. A manned flight to the moon and back used to be enormously expensive. Fifty years later after challenging lots of accepted wisdom on how rockets have to work, SpaceX is making a spaceship capable of taking a very sizable crew and payload to the moon and back. Only this time both the booster and the spaceship will land on earth and be reusable. As an afterthought the spaceship is designed so it can be refueled by a sister ship and carry a much larger payload to the moon or Mars.

Most of the main concepts seem obvious to the average person but a lot of technical expertise had to go into making them work. Among the most important may be the ability to ignore conventional wisdom that doesn't apply in this case.

On the construction of nuclear power plants we have blinders imposed by the obvious need to have truly massive reactor vessels (8' steel with perfect welds only made by one company in Japan). Because of the high pressures to get reasonable efficiency out of the steam turbines we need MASSIVE containment buildings, massive amounts of water (usually near large bodies of water) and massive cooling towers.

Molten Salt reactors with the fuel dissolved in the salt have much higher temperatures because of the salt melting and vaporization points. This allows near normal atmospheric pressure, no concerns about fuel rods melting because they are not in the design, continuous refueling, much less fuel to remain critical compared to using fuel rods, no requirement for high volumes of cooling water or massive cooling towers. The reactor vessel can be manufactured in a normal factory and one design I know of, the reactor vessel can be shipped on the highway by truck.

The cost of the land can be much less because far less is needed and it doesn't need to be near lots of cooling water. The reactor building will likely be buried for protection from crashing sabotage aircraft and the thickness of the concrete walls also will be based on that need. Instead of sites consisting of square miles they can probably be a reasonable number of acres - depending on security needs.

When you automate the production of the reactor in a precision factory you eliminate and enormous amount of costs trying to achieve precision on something so large it must be done outdoors.

Molten Salt also has the advantage of freezing if it should leak out of the reactor vessel and the salt bonds as well as becoming a solid greatly reduces the escape of volatile radioactive gasses. Further the reactor design allows it to automatically shut down if it gets too hot with no operator interference and operator interference cannot prevent it.

The above is why I think the liquid fuel Molten Salt Fast Reactor is a disruptive a technology on a scale similar to SpaceX.

P.S. Most nuclear reactors come with a multi-month to multi-year "backup battery". It's technical name is "Nuclear Fuel".

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Why not nuclear power? [View all] question everything Sep 2019 OP
The biggest problem with it is that it creates a lot of nuclear waste sandensea Sep 2019 #1
Most "nuclear waste" is potential fuel for coming generations of Molten Salt Fast Reactors MSFR's). Bearware Sep 2019 #9
Your words to God's ear sandensea Sep 2019 #10
LOL!!!111 jpak Sep 2019 #31
Nuclear + climate change a bigger mess n/t Lulu KC Sep 2019 #2
There is lots of room for R&D in the energy sector and hopefully these issues can be resolved walkingman Sep 2019 #3
Thorium reactors could be the answer - Th is much more abundant The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2019 #4
Perhaps this is something that the next administration can tackle question everything Sep 2019 #7
Economics - they have gotten very expensive, so expensive that even ones progree Sep 2019 #5
It can be a mistake to assume current costs to make something apply directly to disruptive tech Bearware Sep 2019 #11
So why hasn't any nuclear-capable country built any? progree Sep 2019 #12
I suspect there are a number of advanced prototype molten reactors being built or in operation Bearware Sep 2019 #15
Problems with nuclear plants? Finishline42 Sep 2019 #17
Problems with other energy plants Bearware Sep 2019 #21
Wind and solar have a overwhelming advantage Finishline42 Sep 2019 #28
You do know of utility scale batteries - don't you? jpak Sep 2019 #32
How many GigaWatt-Days or Hours of power are utility scale batteries up to? Bearware Sep 2019 #34
The "reusable rocket" of nuclear power would be molten metal nuclear fuels, not molten salts. hunter Sep 2019 #19
I would bet on some form(s) of more primitive molten salt "reusable rockets" before MMNF's Bearware Sep 2019 #22
I'm rarely patient enough for youtube videos... hunter Sep 2019 #23
Thanks for finding the Powerpoint Bearware Sep 2019 #29
The chemistry seems the more difficult aspect of this design. hunter Sep 2019 #33
Why the massive cooling is needed progree Sep 2019 #13
Sorry, you are correct I poorly stated the reasons for massive containment buildings. Bearware Sep 2019 #16
How long will nuclear power take ? John ONeill Aug 2021 #35
There's no safe storage of nuclear waste. nt in2herbs Sep 2019 #6
There's no safe storage of fossil fuel waste. hunter Sep 2019 #8
My objection applies to nuclear power or any other low-carbon source The_jackalope Sep 2019 #14
The only way to quit fossil fuels is to quit fossil fuels. hunter Sep 2019 #20
Newer reactors could produce fuels from the air or water Bearware Sep 2019 #25
Just in: another cost increase for Hinkley Point C in the U.K., now 8,370 $/KW progree Sep 2019 #18
Economic arguments are silly. hunter Sep 2019 #24
True. But unfortunately the deciders have so far decided differently -- look at all the nuke plants progree Sep 2019 #27
Nuclear power must be subjected to the same moral critiques as human-induced climate change -- RockRaven Sep 2019 #26
Newer safer design molten salt fast reactors can burn up existing and future "nuclear waste". Bearware Sep 2019 #30
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»Why not nuclear power?»Reply #11