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OKIsItJustMe

(22,175 posts)
16. Well, let's not pretend that Lovins ignores Jevons
Tue May 8, 2012, 12:20 PM
May 2012

Must he address Jevons at length each time he speaks?

http://blog.rmi.org/blog_Jevons_Paradox



Owen's counterfactual 2010 New Yorker article on energy "rebound" was demolished at the time by, among others, Dr. James Barrett of the Clean Economy Development Center, Dr. Michael Levi of the Council on Foreign Relations, Dr. David Goldstein of Natural Resources Defense Council, and myself . Cameron Burns and Michael Potts nicely summarized the key arguments here—the #1 Google hit for searches like "AmoryLovins+Jevons"—and RMI pursues the diverse "Jevons paradox" conversation at on our blog. A Times editor constructing a conversation on this theme could have easily found such references, leaving readers better-informed.

There is a very large professional literature on energy rebound, refreshed about every decade as someone rediscovers and popularizes this old canard. That literature supports neither Owen's view nor Prof. Matthew Kotchen's partial support that "rebound effects are potentially important." Real, yes; important, no. The price-elasticity and responding effects Owen cites, where measurable, are consistently minor—a theoretical nicety of little practical consequence.

James Watt's more-efficient steam engine did spark an industrial revolution that (as Stanley Jevons observed) created great wealth and burned more coal. But this is no proof that energy efficiency generally triggers economic growth that devours its savings (or more)—a "backfire" effect never yet observed. Rather, it shows that many disruptive technologies stimulate economic growth and wealth, sometimes sharply. Some disruptive technologies, like microchips and the Internet, incidentally save net energy even though they are not meant to be energy technologies; some disruptive energy technologies, like automobiles and jet airplanes, increase energy use, while others, like electric motors, probably decrease it, and still others, like electric lights, could do either depending on technology and metrics (which Owen's cited lighting analysis muddles); still other disruptive technologies that Owen doesn't criticize, like key advances in public health, mass education, and innovation, enormously increase wealth and have complex and indeterminate energy effects. Blaming wealth effects on energy efficiency has no basis in fact or logic.

To be sure, energy efficiency does modestly increase wealth, just as Owen's more efficient desk-lamp makes him slightly richer. I doubt this saving makes him use the lamp at least four times more (as would be needed to offset its energy savings), or that if it did, sitting longer at his desk would not displace other substantial energy-using activities. More likely his total energy use rose simply because he got richer: his writings and lectures have sold well to people who like his message, so he now has more stuff, uses it more, travels more, and probably doesn't reinvest much of his increased wealth in buying still more energy efficiency, which he thinks would frustrate his stated goal of environmental improvement.

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I'm not sure human civilization has 50 years left. NickB79 May 2012 #1
Well, we don't necessarily need to change everything overnight OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #2
We >needed< to start making changes rather quickly GliderGuider May 2012 #3
So, it's pointless to do it now? OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #5
Of course we should start now. GliderGuider May 2012 #6
It's too late to stop at the end of WWII OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #9
Nobody says "It's too late to do anything now." GliderGuider May 2012 #12
It's like hitting the brakes before an unavoidable car accident NickB79 May 2012 #40
What science do you base that on? kristopher May 2012 #42
The Arctic ice cap is on track to disintegrate by 2020 NickB79 May 2012 #49
In other words you are going strictly by your own evaluation of the evidence kristopher May 2012 #55
I'm going by respected scientists such as James Hansen NickB79 May 2012 #62
A reminder of your statement that I asked you to clarify kristopher May 2012 #63
Do you actually read any articles here? XemaSab Jul 2012 #68
The article doesn't support his conclusion. kristopher Jul 2012 #69
Thanks for the link madokie May 2012 #4
I'm glad you enjoyed it! OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #10
Yes it is madokie May 2012 #11
Notice how studiously Lovins ignores the insights of Stanley Jevons? GliderGuider May 2012 #7
Why do you assume that "Jevons Paradox" is immutable natural law? OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #8
Because it seems to be. GliderGuider May 2012 #13
Or it could be that your understanding of the entire subject is subpar. kristopher May 2012 #14
Could be. GliderGuider May 2012 #15
“Lovins has his sycophants…” OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #17
Every communication is semantically loaded - at least this one was obvious. GliderGuider May 2012 #18
See post 16 by OK. nt kristopher May 2012 #19
Asked and answered. Not enough, sorry. nt GliderGuider May 2012 #21
I wouldn't argue with the Jevons Paradox Nederland Jul 2012 #71
Well, let's not pretend that Lovins ignores Jevons OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #16
So long as he continues to deny the fundamental reality of the situation GliderGuider May 2012 #20
You are simply ignoring the evidence GG. kristopher May 2012 #22
What evidence? GliderGuider May 2012 #24
See #23 below OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #25
Efficiency lives — the rebound effect, not so much OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #23
Again, the blog post draws the system boundaries nice and tight. GliderGuider May 2012 #26
Or, perhaps, you dismiss evidence out-of-hand which does not confirm your beliefs OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #27
More on the rebound effect: counterexamples OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #28
You can't ascribe life's pursuit of growth to energy efficiency. kristopher May 2012 #29
Not the pursuit of growth, perhaps. GliderGuider May 2012 #31
You are simply engaging in wholesale redefinition of concepts. kristopher May 2012 #32
What on earth are you on about? GliderGuider May 2012 #33
Your "rebuttal" of Lovins etal leaves the realm of energy efficiency and rebound ... kristopher May 2012 #44
When you can't keep up you can always try a smear, eh? GliderGuider May 2012 #46
There is no problem with "keeping up" kristopher May 2012 #47
Mmm. Which is why you're doing such a bang-up job of refuting it. GliderGuider May 2012 #48
OK has already posted a complete rebuttal. kristopher May 2012 #50
You know, you are right about one thing. GliderGuider May 2012 #52
Spoken like a true lover of big energy. kristopher May 2012 #56
How about you write an OP XemaSab May 2012 #45
It's all in where you draw the system boundaries. GliderGuider May 2012 #30
That doesn’t follow—(i.e. It's all in where you draw the system boundaries.) OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #34
Let's follow your example through GliderGuider May 2012 #35
The question is, do “whole lot of little bits add up to” more than the initial savings? OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #37
I'm not trying to prove that. GliderGuider May 2012 #38
Grist: Does the rebound effect matter for policy? OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #54
I guess my difficulty is that I don't see further economic productivity as "good". GliderGuider May 2012 #57
I don’t view continued economic growth as a priority here OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #60
I tend to think of recycling as irrelevant. GliderGuider May 2012 #61
Energy Efficiency is for Real, Energy Rebound a Distraction OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #36
Don't mistake my position as being against energy efficiency. GliderGuider May 2012 #39
That’s difficult… OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #41
Having fuel efficient cars in Europe has done nothing to decrease global oil use GliderGuider May 2012 #43
Is that anything more than a hunch? OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #51
I call it a logical deduction. You may call it a hunch if it makes you feel better. GliderGuider May 2012 #53
We don't have to lower the TOTAL amount of energy. Odin2005 May 2012 #58
I thuink Lovins is a Libertarian dick at times, but I agree with him here. Odin2005 May 2012 #59
Kick... NYC_SKP Jul 2012 #64
Lovins is a professional greenwasher. hunter Jul 2012 #65
Lovins is anything but a "greenwasher" kristopher Jul 2012 #66
Hypocrite. Nihil Jul 2012 #72
Our primary nuclear pusher is indignant yet again? kristopher Jul 2012 #73
I don't know - have you asked him? Nihil Jul 2012 #74
Have we started yet? joshcryer Jul 2012 #67
Yes we have made a much better than expected start. kristopher Jul 2012 #70
kick and rec kristopher Jul 2012 #75
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