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Israel/Palestine
In reply to the discussion: Israel Hate is Anti-Semitism [View all]R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)249. Seemingly you still do. And if you don't want to read it then put me on ignore.
Both "gay" examples were examples of changes in words.
Yes, there are words that have changed over time, and that was my original position and still is.
I didn't neglect to answer the second gay statement since it wasn't necessary. My position is that the definitions for some words change. You made that clear yourself.
"Staying with gay examples, "homophobia" is another word that us "purists" believe is discrimination against gay and lesbian (homosexual) people, but some language champions wish to claim and encourage the belief that the word means "fear of sameness" and therefore are people afraid of "routine" or things seen as routine, such as marriage. Gee, I wonder why they would re-create the definition in such a way."
This is a bigoted comment you say, I have not heard that one used yet, by proponents of the term "homophobia" in order to remove it altogether from what gay has come, in part, to mean.
Conversely, suggesting that anti-Semitism be inclusive of all Semitic peoples who are persecuted is not trying to recreate the word to exclude one group but expand on and strengthen it for all. It is the very exclusion of these other groups of Semitic peoples, by one lone group, which is the most puzzling to me especially since the word as you state it "was created by a notorious Jew hater." This "notorious Jew hater" most likely hated other groups of Semites and anybody that was not of the Aryan race. What is more puzzling is why any group of Semites would want anything to do with a word or definition coined up by a proto Nazi in the first place, but there is also some question as to who first coined the word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
Although Wilhelm Marr is generally credited with coining the word anti-Semitism (see below), Alex Bein writes that the word was first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "anti-Semitic prejudices".[13] Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races."
You say "It isn't a "badge" yet the zeal in which you defend it as practically your birthright suggests that it is.
You ask "Why not say anti-Palestinian bigotry?" For that matter it is difficult since many on I/P won't even acknowledge its existence; at least when it involves Israelis.
Then for some reason you move on to this.
another reason it is so popular for some to try to change the word is because they further mutilate the word by claiming a member of said group, in this case, Semites, cannot be "anti-" themselves, which is complete nonsense and nothing more than further bastardization and proof positive that the change is to insulate against charges of discrimination against Jews.
I never mentioned this in any way so why do you try and lump me in with bigots again is beyond me. Perhaps it is easier to label one a hater than it is talking about a subject with them.
What I see is inclusiveness of the definition for all Semites, and yet what I perceive is overt hostility to the use of the word by any other group other than the Jews.
It is NOT intellectually dishonest to ask why a definition is not inclusive of all groups interested regardless of who coined it.
The only distractions happening in this exchange all belong to YOU and YOU alone! The first one being your absurd "anti-Semitism applies to Semites" bullshit argument.
Actually I wrote "Arabs are Semites. How are you going to argue that they are not?"
The second being making accusations that I accused you of something I didn't.
Your words.
What is surprising is the level of dishonesty involved in those who continue to try and re-create "anti-Semitism" in an "image of their own creation."
Also.
So your "wonder" should be spent pondering why so many like you keep trying to re-create the word into something it isn't.
You implied it.
So, ahem, what I actually did write seems to be even more valid now, and you supplied the proof in the pudding.
"It is surprising that some react as if they have been burned by acid with the slightest suggestion that any inclusion of discrimination of other Semites into their lexicon is possible."
Thanks for the clip of Helen Thomas. She gets under everybody's skin. Some hate her.
So instead of responding further this is what you SHOULD have said.
Since the Jewish Diaspora almost two thousand years ago the nation of Israel had wandered in the wilderness: as a nation unto itself. They have been shunned, forced to move from land to land, have been scapegoated for the problems of the world, have been persecuted by the Christian church during the Inquisition and other times, have been persecuted throughout Europe, have been forced to live in ghettos, have been prohibited from owning property, murdered, tortured and vilified in literature: keeping alive the stereotype of hate generation after generation. It was through these stereotypes that the term Anti-Semite was coined by the bigoted German writer Wilhelm Marr during the late 1800s, and possibly in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider. The word has been associated with the wandering tribe essentially in Europe ever since. That being said one could argue that all Semitic peoples should be included in the definition, but the difference is that the term was born out of hatred against one group in particular. There is and was certainly bigotry against much of the inhabitants of the Middle East from within as well as without in Europe and Asia Minor; which can be seen in the colonization of those peoples under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, French and English. These peoples could be identified in the places they lived, the tribes they lived in and their differing cultures. The difference is that the Jews did not. They may have lived in every country in Europe and elsewhere but the country did not define them inasmuch as their religious identity did: still a nation unto themselves.
That is why there is a difference between the term Semitic, which covers many peoples, and Anti-Semitic which has been both an epithet and heavy weight on the Jewish people.
>>> If you were really forward thinking you might even go this far.
That is not to say that the word will always have the same meaning. It may for many years. The world has changed, but in many sad ways bigotry still largely remains. In time the word anti-Semitic may encompass a broader more inclusive definition to regard all bigoted acts against all Semites everywhere. The word may have been coined to describe one people out of many, but in solidarity and regardless of religion we will stand up and be counted as one.
You see, I'm not really in opposition to you on this point inasmuch as I would like you to work harder at explaining your position, and I still wonder why it is so hard to include others in the definition. Perhaps there is too much hate and alienation all around for that to happen. The Jews may always be a nation apart, and it is too bad that they share a commonality in terms of bigotry against them that they deign to refuse and use to their advantage.
Good night.
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Israel's gov't is just our badly behaved punk cousin who has to be bailed out again. To point that
leveymg
Nov 2012
#227
When you look at US history did you ever sop to ask where the Colonials
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#160
When the colonies during the American Revolution were fighting for their
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#213
Still, the past restrictions Egypt put in place on Gazans leaving and entering Gaza
Ken Burch
Nov 2012
#219
And I call Bullshit! Now tell me about the West Bank and what is going on there with
teddy51
Nov 2012
#36
You people are great at rerouting the subject! I asked about the West Bank, not Gaza. You fuckers
teddy51
Nov 2012
#47
No, the discussion is not about Gaza the discussion is about Palestine vs Israel and what land
teddy51
Nov 2012
#70
You're assuming Hamas can be mollified by negotiations. They're perfectly clear....
shira
Nov 2012
#125
Yes, i'm sure that the giant graphic was just too painful to see and it took forever to load.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#198
There's no room. It's about the size of DC, and has damn near twice as many people
leveymg
Nov 2012
#55
My larger point is valid. I said it's an overcrowded walled refugee camp that's not worth
leveymg
Nov 2012
#64
You can argue those points with the authors of this report: 2/3 of Gaza are refugees
leveymg
Nov 2012
#131
What is the difference between a city with 2/3 refugees and a refugee camp? What is the difference
leveymg
Nov 2012
#139
I believe it was Dov Weisglass who infamously called the "disengagement" plan ...
Fantastic Anarchist
Nov 2012
#165
Sorry, but I see some of you as "Poor me, please feel sorry for me) and forget what we do in
teddy51
Nov 2012
#9
Opposing the Gaza withdrawal, which you're doing due to Israel's "evil" intent.....
shira
Nov 2012
#171
Who cares what he said? Nobody that is apparently falling all over themselves
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#218
"What does an oppressed, imprisoned people (Hamas) do to get the rest of the world's attention"
shira
Nov 2012
#40
A question for you: What did those Turkish people onboard that boat do to warrant there deaths?
teddy51
Nov 2012
#42
And have you listened to Turkey's PM about this event? No, I doubt you have cause everything is
teddy51
Nov 2012
#52
"What did those Turkish people onboard that boat do to warrant there deaths?"
holdencaufield
Nov 2012
#122
Not my call, that belongs to the Israeli people. How about a leader that truly wants to make
teddy51
Nov 2012
#49
Like I said, I'm not an Israeli citizen and don't get to vote there or make that call.
teddy51
Nov 2012
#66
I would like to see the Labor party guy(sorry can't remember his name) Get back in power.
hrmjustin
Nov 2012
#50
Really Barak is Israel's current Minister of Defense and the one in charge of this show
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#96
The sad truth is this when it comes to Palestinians there is little light between
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#106
know what I luv weasel words and oh the British mandate ended over 65 years ago
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#282
No, I don't think the Israeli people do, but there leaders certainly have no problem with
teddy51
Nov 2012
#54
So tell me about the boat that you guys boarded and killed innocent people on then! Your not
teddy51
Nov 2012
#87
I was here, observing some propaganda troll bot endlessly recite stale talking points
Alamuti Lotus
Nov 2012
#19
You would not be correct in assuming anything; you're just not good at it.. *nt
Alamuti Lotus
Nov 2012
#27
That charge is pretty funny considering your mission here seems to be to demonize
shira
Nov 2012
#126
Hamas' sworn intent to kill the Jews is irrelevant to the "human rights community"
shira
Nov 2012
#166
I would very much like to hear your “strong ethical argument” favouring Palestine over the US......
kayecy
Nov 2012
#289
For the same reason that the US, Argentina or Australia would have rejected it........
kayecy
Nov 2012
#298
no because you've shown nothing but hearsay and opinion I originally asked for evidence charges from
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#143
No you did not quote B'tselem you claimed that and you were busted which is why no link
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#183
I have questioned MEMRI more than once and that very same video within the past 24hrs
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#82
no MEMRI's record of biased translation coupled with Israeles propaganda program to make
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#104
My question has everything to with "The People" versus "their Government" ...
1StrongBlackMan
Nov 2012
#140
After witnessing our invasion and decimation of Iraq, with israeli encouragement, why the hell
Purveyor
Nov 2012
#53
Israel had nothing to do with our invasion of Iraq. There were a lot of countries who supported
still_one
Nov 2012
#110
Israel To U.S. Don't Delay Iraq Attack, Sharon Government Urges Prompt Action Against Saddam - CBS
Purveyor
Nov 2012
#142
My point was the U.S. was doing regardless, and other western countries did the same bullshit. It
still_one
Nov 2012
#144
They did not do it because of their encouragement or any other countries encouragement. They did it
still_one
Nov 2012
#148
Bullshit. The argument might be made that the US did, but not Israel, but while you are at it why
still_one
Nov 2012
#112
Yes, because the mightiest state in the Middle East is a poor victim.
Fantastic Anarchist
Nov 2012
#151
So let's say a chunk of Mexico (or Canada) is given to terrorists who launch rockets to the USA
PuppyBismark
Nov 2012
#155
Not true. I am anti Zionist right wing crazy Israelis, I am not anti Israel or an anti-Semitic.
OregonBlue
Nov 2012
#181
That's right...this so-called "progressive" magazine says that anyone who is Israeli or Jewish
Ken Burch
Nov 2012
#201
If hostility against Jews and Jewish organization is anti-semitic, what do you call Jewish
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#209
You do realize not every organization that advocate for Palestinian rights in Palestine..
King_David
Nov 2012
#212
You have it wrong. In contrast to you, I have never claimed that any organization that advocates
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#215
It is disingenuous and used to "deflect" from the discrimination against Jews.
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#233
Are you going to argue that anti-Semitism is discrimination against Arabs?
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#241
Language is fluid, and definitions change with time, usage and cultural reference.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#243
Seemingly you still do. And if you don't want to read it then put me on ignore.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#249
As I said, you can always put me on ignore and dig your heels in to the end of time.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#255
And if you want to play word games, you will get called on it again and again.
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#256
"a term coined by antisemites"? Actually, the German-Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#234
True about not all Palestinians being Muslims (and not all Israelis are Jews)..
LeftishBrit
Nov 2012
#236
I have no idea as to whether Marr popularized the term. I know that many now use the term to
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#238
spreading that bigotry out among multiple terms that way it's harder to pin down
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#253
Well, you're free to go away then and dig your heels in someplace else.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#270
Lovely straw man argument... I think the leaders screw up, so I must be a Nazi...
bobclark86
Nov 2012
#295