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rrneck

(17,671 posts)
177. Lots of people like extreme sports. Some like roller coasters and other thrill rides.
Fri May 4, 2012, 01:50 AM
May 2012

Others still like scary movies. I read years ago that your body does not distinguish between fear and excitement. The biochemical responses are the same for both.



Are the biochemical processes significantly different for those raising their hands in a revival meeting from those doing the "wave" at a baseball game? Aren't they both just rooting for their team? Surely, just because one relates to the concept of "god" they couldn't claim their physical existence is different in any meaningful way. Do you think just because somebody handles snakes because he thinks "god" told him to his experience is special compared to some guy that likes to jump motorcycles? Why does the concept of "god" have to make any particular human activity any more special than any other?

Religion as a human activity is on the wane and has been for hundreds of years. With that waning, does it appear to you that people in general have become increasingly rational? One would think that with the great leaps forward in science and technology in the last four hundred years stuff like this wouldn't happen. How many of those riots were religiously motivated?

The most commonly understood meaning of the word religion does indeed refer to some supernatural component. But words mean what we want them to mean, unless you think that they are handed down to us by some supernatural being. The meanings of words change over time, and while the first definition of religion refers to a supernatural component, the second definition is much more secular in nature:

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

The times, they are a changin'. For the last few thousand years religions that referred to some supernatural agency were the only game in town. If one wanted to engage in a communal ritual it involved a deity or you got to be guest of honor at a barbeque. But that was before the enlightenment, nationalism, the industrial revolution and memetics. I would like to see some evidence that human biology has changed in any meaningful way in response to the scientific and technological developments that have made it possible to think in terms of not believing in a deity. I think it unlikely a twenty first century human is fundamentally different from a fourteenth century human. Surely we didn't evolve into Spock in the last four hundred years. It is much more likely that we are redirecting the theistic impulse in directions that do not necessarily involve a deity. Like football.

Religion isn't special. It gets away with most of its shit because it has managed to convince us that it is more than simple brand loyalty. It ain't. We can learn about as much about honor, integrity, perseverance, and reciprocity from following a major league pennant race as from any religion.

Is atheism a religion? Well, it's an "ism". As I said, it could be a religion, but it wouldn't make a very good one. Atheists are cultural anarchists. If we could agree on some sort of practice of atheism as a religion it wouldn't last long. Religions have to affirm something. Atheism does exactly the opposite (depending on which degree of atheism we're talking about). Of course who said religion had to last thousands of years? For that matter, who said a religion had to have practitioners at all? Couldn't one be a non practicing atheist? There are non practicing Catholics. All you have to do is not show up at the meeting.

To my mind it's better to force religion to compete fairly in the marketplace of emotional activities rather than conferring upon it some sort of special status that separates it from what it has become - just another fucking product. Watching some religious muckety-muck weighing in on the moral issues of the day makes about much sense to me as George Steinbrenner leading devout Yankees fans in a march for the display of baseball monuments on government property. If making progress in forcing religion onto a level playing field involves calling atheism a religion, well, it might be worth it. If we can agree on what form the religion of atheism will take I can only hope it will have cheerleaders and lots of beer.





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0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

I think much of the science stuff was generated by the Church in its heyday as another gateley Apr 2012 #1
Yes, ordinary people weren't learned or holy or qualified to read the bible Warpy Apr 2012 #3
if they 'hate' how are they better. I am tired of hating by anyone. roguevalley Apr 2012 #31
Heck, I'll rec that. ret5hd Apr 2012 #2
KnR! KansDem Apr 2012 #4
I think you're confusing me with somebody else. struggle4progress Apr 2012 #5
Don't stop him, he's on a roll. rug Apr 2012 #6
Well much of what you say is true, but twice you said humblebum Apr 2012 #7
This is a huge discussion within itself Taverner Apr 2012 #11
Actually many of them were killed in the name of atheism. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #13
Were they killed by atheists? Orrex Apr 2012 #14
Who said anything about Hitler? nt humblebum Apr 2012 #34
Nearly every Christian to claim that atheism has killed more people than Christianity. That's who. Orrex Apr 2012 #41
I don't consider Hitler to be an atheist. In fact, it isn't clear what he was. humblebum Apr 2012 #66
Well, take it up with those Christians who raise him up as a paragon of atheism Orrex Apr 2012 #73
I have seen them and there is some evidence that he considered the humblebum Apr 2012 #76
A good point, but remember... Orrex Apr 2012 #79
Both are true. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #81
"Only in your mind" darkstar3 Apr 2012 #104
And in the history books. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #106
What hogwash. Where do you get this nonsense? Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #122
Tell me which of those involved killing in the name of atheism Orrex Apr 2012 #133
No the point was, if you bothered to read the OP Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #138
If you bothered to read the thread, you'd understand that I wasn't replying to the OP Orrex Apr 2012 #146
No matter how many times you repeat that lie, it remains just that. opiate69 Apr 2012 #16
There is far too much supporting evidence for it to be a lie. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #33
So much evidence, in fact, that you seem to feel no need to provide it Orrex Apr 2012 #45
Nor do I see any evidence saying that religion was responsible for more deaths humblebum Apr 2012 #67
no. just no. Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #17
" Nazi Germany was not an atheist state" - so who said it was? nt humblebum Apr 2012 #35
"Your argument dishonestly conflates the two" cleanhippie Apr 2012 #42
Wrong. rrneck Apr 2012 #22
"Communism is a religion like any other." ? Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #123
It's just a question of the object of belief. rrneck Apr 2012 #127
So you're saying atheism is a religion too? Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #130
Yes. rrneck Apr 2012 #136
You certainly are a very singular fellow. I like that. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #141
Yes. rrneck Apr 2012 #142
You know that's almost 100% incorrect, right? Orrex May 2012 #155
Do you like being an atheist? nt rrneck May 2012 #156
As opposed to what? Orrex May 2012 #159
Do you prefer it to theism? rrneck May 2012 #160
I "prefer" atheism insofar as it is more verifiably consistent with observed reality than theism Orrex May 2012 #162
Lots of people like extreme sports. Some like roller coasters and other thrill rides. rrneck May 2012 #177
You're simply off the mark, both in terms of logic and persuasiveness Orrex May 2012 #182
It's fairly simple. rrneck May 2012 #183
Not sure what you're arguing, then Orrex May 2012 #190
So you got nothin'. Allrighty. rrneck May 2012 #192
Take your best shot. You won't offend me. Orrex May 2012 #195
It's a lot easier to be an atheist rrneck May 2012 #196
if atheism is not a religion why do keep posting in a religion group?nt Thats my opinion May 2012 #157
Because he wants to? eqfan592 May 2012 #158
Why would one have to claim a religion for the right to post here? nt rrneck May 2012 #161
No, Stalin, Kim Il-sung, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Vo Nguyen Giap, Che Guevera, Fidel Castro, Mao or... Taverner Apr 2012 #50
Actually, The League of Militant Atheists was charged with doing exactly what humblebum Apr 2012 #65
That was discredited - never happened Taverner Apr 2012 #71
Then the reopened Soviet archives, eyewitness accounts, Solzhenitsyn, films, and humblebum Apr 2012 #80
Cite your historians... Taverner Apr 2012 #95
"identifying one leader under one Communist Oligarchy" - not hardly. The period humblebum Apr 2012 #96
Please give me a count, how many people were killed as a result of State Atheism.... Taverner Apr 2012 #98
He can't skepticscott Apr 2012 #107
We have been through this many times before, and even in the face humblebum Apr 2012 #119
The fact is skepticscott Apr 2012 #120
The figure of 130 million is extremely important because humblebum Apr 2012 #121
Now you're calling people who disagree with you Holocaust deniers?! darkstar3 May 2012 #203
What a ruse! I could have easily said that denying humblebum May 2012 #205
And that STILL would have been offensive, not just to Jews, but in general. darkstar3 May 2012 #213
You do a pretty good job of that yourself. nt humblebum May 2012 #215
This message was self-deleted by its author humblebum May 2012 #204
No True Atheist would be a Communist! kwassa Apr 2012 #92
WHAT? I am just saying the reason for killing wasn't atheism... Taverner Apr 2012 #93
You are telling me that there was no persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union? kwassa Apr 2012 #109
Under Stalin, yes. Under anyone else, not really. Taverner Apr 2012 #111
The greatest murderers in history. Maybe 60 million dead between the two of them. kwassa Apr 2012 #114
That is not killing. Taverner Apr 2012 #115
Arrests and imprisonment in the Soviet Gulag often ended in death. kwassa Apr 2012 #117
And many historians realize that death was clearly the intention. Far too humblebum Apr 2012 #118
Hogwash skepticscott Apr 2012 #134
But, but, but, the League of Militant Atheists!!!!!! cleanhippie Apr 2012 #135
Like the sun rises.. skepticscott Apr 2012 #140
1.6 million died in, or as a result of the Gulags. Hogwash, indeed. kwassa Apr 2012 #137
And how does any of that show skepticscott Apr 2012 #139
Death doesn't have to be the stated intention, merely the result. kwassa May 2012 #149
Not according to the title of 118 above skepticscott May 2012 #151
Yes, that's why so many were underfed and poorly clothed. humblebum Apr 2012 #144
You are severely lacking. humblebum Apr 2012 #147
What you actually said was Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #126
Please consult with your mentor regarding when the no true scotsman snark is appropriate. Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #105
So they didn't kill for religion either, which was your point. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #124
YES. Thank you. +1000 Taverner Apr 2012 #143
Go back and reread the history of the Crusades. Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #110
Totally agree. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #116
Nope nothing to do with religion here. Jesus is pure. Amen. Taverner Apr 2012 #145
The most enlightening and revealing Crusade was the Albigensian Crusade. Fought with great dimbear May 2012 #181
Are you really that naive? harmonicon Apr 2012 #18
"The Crusades were a series of religious expeditionary wars blessed by the Pope..." Taverner Apr 2012 #36
"stated goal" harmonicon Apr 2012 #39
Um, back then stated goals were how they spread Taverner Apr 2012 #40
I really don't think it's any different today. harmonicon Apr 2012 #44
Really? You mean a world where news traveled by horseback... Taverner Apr 2012 #48
The human beings are essentially the same, yeah. harmonicon Apr 2012 #51
Humans are, the media that connect us, not so Taverner Apr 2012 #53
Must admit I had to pause on that one too. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #97
atheists and anger pokerfan Apr 2012 #8
I don't like painting with a broad brush longship Apr 2012 #9
Religion isn't going away, but maybe its methods can Taverner Apr 2012 #12
Dennett calls it epidemiology longship Apr 2012 #23
Perhaps. And perhaps we can eliminate it. Taverner Apr 2012 #37
Thank you, Taverner. longship Apr 2012 #43
I agree - and that is why I think all of us need a dialogue going Taverner Apr 2012 #47
That is our strength longship Apr 2012 #52
Twice now you have said you want religion to "go away" or "we can eliminate it." Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #112
Good addition to the post. Thanks. Scuba Apr 2012 #15
Thank you, sir, or Madame longship Apr 2012 #20
Don't call me "sir", I work for a living.... Scuba Apr 2012 #21
I grovel! I grovel! longship Apr 2012 #25
Yep. Agreed. Taverner Apr 2012 #38
Bigots are still bigots no matter what they just write off or distort nt Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #56
Yes, and if someone writes off skepticscott Apr 2012 #132
Nicely put. cachukis Apr 2012 #19
+1 CJCRANE Apr 2012 #24
Unnecessarily decisive? Not really. longship Apr 2012 #27
I said that because it makes no distinction between conservative and liberal christians. CJCRANE Apr 2012 #28
I agree 100%. The liberal theists are not standing up longship Apr 2012 #30
Look at it this way - if you are part of a group that has done a lot of damage Taverner Apr 2012 #46
If you really want to know why so few theists post here---just read through the posts Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #57
Umm, can't see I've seen somebody told to "fuck off" all that much here... eqfan592 Apr 2012 #59
You're joking. Right? LTX Apr 2012 #72
No, I'm not joking. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #90
I have never told you to fuck off Taverner Apr 2012 #99
Thank you. Bigotry in any form puts blinders on the eyes of reason. nt Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #82
It isn't religion that divides people, but ethnic, tribal and other in-group eridani Apr 2012 #64
"It isn't religion that divides people, but ............" dimbear Apr 2012 #68
Looking at all of human history-- eridani Apr 2012 #100
Well done. Thank you, longship. cbayer Apr 2012 #26
I've got your back! longship Apr 2012 #29
Morph into a less toxic form? Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #55
So you are saying that religion is toxic? eqfan592 Apr 2012 #58
You bet! Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #60
Could you provide a specific example from this thread.... eqfan592 Apr 2012 #63
Yawn... mr blur Apr 2012 #69
Let's split the difference here longship Apr 2012 #89
So, you are stating that atheists are against the common people? humblebum Apr 2012 #91
Ahem! I didn't say that, now did I longship Apr 2012 #101
Why is it then that you don't put it in context of the first century CE? humblebum Apr 2012 #102
I thought the dates in the quote were sufficient longship Apr 2012 #103
It's a nice theory, but where are they? Also, atheists aren't looking to wipe out religion. jeff47 Apr 2012 #75
While I have see surveys that confirm that religious people in general would not cbayer Apr 2012 #77
Will take a while to dig up the data jeff47 Apr 2012 #84
If there was any support from the liberal religious community regarding the RI cbayer Apr 2012 #85
I think we basically agree on some things longship Apr 2012 #86
You make excellent points here longship Apr 2012 #148
+1 Well said. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #128
Very little of that is why I am bothered by believers dmallind Apr 2012 #10
That is part 2, if there were to be one Taverner Apr 2012 #49
The day I refer to atheists as "idiots," put me down hard! Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #61
Your daughter called a group of Christians "dumbasses." trotsky Apr 2012 #70
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Odin2005 Apr 2012 #32
I find myself having little anger, and when I do, it's usually for how misogynistic religious Evoman Apr 2012 #54
I too am embarrassed by that sort of thing, Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #62
Randians? You mean like that Objectivist shite? Evoman Apr 2012 #94
If you go by empathy, logic and reason, there is no place for misogyny, racism, or social darwinism Taverner Apr 2012 #88
Righteous rant! backscatter712 Apr 2012 #74
No one should be condemned, shunned and belittled.I'll fight with you when I hear about that. Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #113
See Post 70 skepticscott Apr 2012 #125
You just crossed a line there. Time to back up. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #129
I didn't say this: skepticscott Apr 2012 #131
If the "you" is me, the great long list of accusations is the product of something Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #78
Any ideology can be twisted around felix_numinous Apr 2012 #83
If you disassociate meaning from all terms, then yes, nobody's responsible Taverner Apr 2012 #87
Peace- felix_numinous Apr 2012 #108
and leaders of non-Christian groups have done far worse. Keep things in perspective. kwassa May 2012 #150
These communist leaders were leaders that happened to be atheists.. eqfan592 May 2012 #152
It's pretty obvious that you are expounding on things that you know little about. humblebum May 2012 #163
While I stand corrected on some of the specifics. eqfan592 May 2012 #164
Doesn't appear that way to me. Organized atheism inside Russia had extensive ties humblebum May 2012 #168
Amazingly enough, C. Hitchens doesn't necessarily represent all atheists. eqfan592 May 2012 #169
Did I say that he represented all atheists? I doubt if any single person does. Nor does humblebum May 2012 #170
What is this strong influence you speak of? eqfan592 May 2012 #173
Are you saying that Hitchens had no influence upon the atheist community? nt humblebum May 2012 #174
There's a pretty huge gulf between "strong influence" and "no influence." (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #175
If Hitchens was considered to be one of "The Four Horsemen" of humblebum May 2012 #176
This message was self-deleted by its author eqfan592 May 2012 #178
This message was self-deleted by its author eqfan592 May 2012 #178
I think you're missing my point, but I should have clarified. eqfan592 May 2012 #178
You seem to be drifting ever farther away from the main points. I am aware of Trotsky's humblebum May 2012 #184
You brought Trotsky into the conversation to begin with. eqfan592 May 2012 #185
Same source as before. humblebum May 2012 #186
Ok. And for the rest of my post? (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #187
You just keep drift farther away don't you? humblebum May 2012 #188
If you are unwilling to see for yourself... eqfan592 May 2012 #191
I would question who it is doing the flailing and also humblebum May 2012 #193
Have an effect? Yes. eqfan592 May 2012 #194
You make a false distinction. No True Atheist, er, No True Scotsman. kwassa May 2012 #165
By saying that they were atheists, eqfan592 was in no way invoking a No True Scotsman. laconicsax May 2012 #167
I know exactly what NTS is, and also know that it has been falsely applied ... kwassa May 2012 #197
Well, your clear misuse would indicate otherwise. laconicsax May 2012 #200
THANK YOU! eqfan592 May 2012 #201
If the distinction was an accurate one, you'd be right. However, humblebum May 2012 #202
Sorry, but that still doesn't really work, humblebum. eqfan592 May 2012 #207
Oh, now it's "leader of atheists as his primary role" and no longer simply humblebum May 2012 #209
lol yes, I'm drifting. eqfan592 May 2012 #211
Well, then Obama is an atheist leader too. laconicsax May 2012 #214
To my knowledge he has never laid out a program for the inculcation of humblebum May 2012 #216
I see your goalposts are still on wheels. n/t laconicsax May 2012 #218
Your standard dodge. nt humblebum May 2012 #219
I admit, I often dodge your points by pointing out that they're logical fallacies. laconicsax May 2012 #221
You are the one who compared Obama to Stalin, not me. nt humblebum May 2012 #222
No, I pointed out that by your standards, Obama is an "atheist leader." laconicsax May 2012 #223
Hardly. nt humblebum May 2012 #224
Completely agree. I think it needs to be removed from the playbook. cbayer May 2012 #208
Here is my main point for you again. eqfan592 May 2012 #172
Some atheists were mass murderers. kwassa May 2012 #198
What about my argument was specious? eqfan592 May 2012 #199
"Atheism is a subset of Communism"? mr blur May 2012 #206
If by "communism" is meant "Marxist-Leninist" Communism in the USSR, then humblebum May 2012 #210
You realize that makes literally no sense whatsoever, right? eqfan592 May 2012 #212
Marxist-Leninist Communists in the CPSU did not constitute the entirety of Marxist humblebum May 2012 #220
Actually, "Bubba", you missed the point entirely. eqfan592 May 2012 #228
You are right. Communists are really a subset of atheists. kwassa May 2012 #232
At best you could say all their crimes were commited by a very specific... eqfan592 May 2012 #236
This message was self-deleted by its author humblebum May 2012 #217
Do we still have to address this? Act_of_Reparation May 2012 #153
Unfortunately, the people who need to understand that refuse to take the class. darkstar3 May 2012 #166
I believe the word you seek, darkstar, is "pathetic". opiate69 May 2012 #171
"in the name of" is a meaningless argument. kwassa May 2012 #225
No, their single-minded desire for absolute hegemony led to the strategy darkstar3 May 2012 #226
Yes, the absolute hegemony of state atheism. That was the humblebum May 2012 #227
Of the Communist Party. Take your alternate history hate elsewhere. darkstar3 May 2012 #229
The Communist Party replaced the Czar, Scientific Atheism replaced religion. nt humblebum May 2012 #230
And this contradicts my point, how? darkstar3 May 2012 #234
As always, still conflating the two. nt humblebum May 2012 #235
Yes, that's exactly what you've been doing all along, humblebum. (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #237
oh, bullshit. Speaking of making things up ... kwassa May 2012 #231
I could give two shits about a Wikipedia post, but what's funny darkstar3 May 2012 #233
LOL! Yeah, you noticed that too? (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #238
You don't get it. kwassa May 2012 #244
No, you don't get it. I haven't denied that the Communist Party was full of atheists. darkstar3 May 2012 #248
The major difference between the organized atheist movement in the Soviet Union and humblebum May 2012 #239
Look down. rrneck May 2012 #240
Do you have a response that has information in it? kwassa May 2012 #245
Who needs it? rrneck May 2012 #247
So now Communism was just a tool employed by atheists to kill people? darkstar3 May 2012 #241
Sometimes the truth hurts. But where you get hate out of that I have no idea. humblebum May 2012 #242
There was a strong atheist movement in Russia before the Revolution. So tell me, humblebum May 2012 #243
Nobody made that case, and your misrepresentation of it is wildly dishonest. kwassa May 2012 #246
Actually, humblebum made that case in #239. darkstar3 May 2012 #249
Humblebum definitely did not make the case that Communism was JUST anything. humblebum May 2012 #251
Talking about yourself in the third person is generally a sign of certain issues you should address. darkstar3 May 2012 #252
Out of arguments are we? nt humblebum May 2012 #253
Having already responded to the utter ridiculousness of #239, all that's left is to mock you openly. darkstar3 May 2012 #254
You are out of arguments. if you feel comfortable mocking facts humblebum May 2012 #255
How can I be your "guess"? LOL darkstar3 May 2012 #256
By joining the "Roman Orthodox Church." nt humblebum May 2012 #257
This sounds to me like the words of someone who has never read the Bible start to finish Act_of_Reparation May 2012 #154
Disagree... brooklynite May 2012 #189
I think this thread is a pretty good example of why we are mad at some believers. darkstar3 May 2012 #250
Yep the closed-mindedness and denial in the usual suspects... Taverner May 2012 #258
When it is constantly being bantered about that religion is responsible for most wars, or humblebum May 2012 #259
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