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In reply to the discussion: Dear Pope, Atheists Don't Need Redemption [View all]rug
(82,333 posts)43. I did. Here's your opportunity to read the whole thing.
Romans 3
1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify Gods faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:
So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.[a]
5 But if our unrighteousness brings out Gods righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, If my falsehood enhances Gods truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? 8 Why not sayas some slanderously claim that we sayLet us do evil that good may result? Their condemnation is just!
No One Is Righteous
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
13 Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.[c]
The poison of vipers is on their lips.[d]
14 Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.[e]
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.[f]
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.[g]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in Gods sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his bloodto be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify Gods faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:
So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.[a]
5 But if our unrighteousness brings out Gods righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, If my falsehood enhances Gods truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? 8 Why not sayas some slanderously claim that we sayLet us do evil that good may result? Their condemnation is just!
No One Is Righteous
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
13 Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.[c]
The poison of vipers is on their lips.[d]
14 Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.[e]
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.[f]
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.[g]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in Gods sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his bloodto be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Nothing in there supports the OP statement regarding "the belief that we are all wretched human beings". The passage is about the faithfulness of God, humanity's constant rejection of it, and the need for faith. Different things entirely.
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Well he's the head Mitre-chapeau in charge, so they're just gonna have to dig on it!
MADem
May 2013
#4
No I don't, but it is interesting that I was born almost at the moment he died.
hrmjustin
May 2013
#25
I think they got rid of limbo! As to reincarnation it could have been the cathars!
hrmjustin
May 2013
#29
The Church must speak to every generation. Unfortunately many churvhes have issues doing
hrmjustin
May 2013
#45
In my mind there's a big difference between Laws of the church and God's laws
No Vested Interest
May 2013
#61
Well actually, we won't. And that's how religions are able to keep their con going.
BlueStreak
May 2013
#35
if that is true then undoubtedly we northern europeans still go to ragnarok or the like.
Phillip McCleod
May 2013
#50
Whether Rosch does or does not is immaterial, as long as he understands what the Pope is saying.
rug
May 2013
#3
Are you saying the classic monks bent over scribing away were the first nerds?
Spitfire of ATJ
May 2013
#14
Click-bait fake controvery. Author deliberately took the Pope out of context to draw views.
TekGryphon
May 2013
#16
I don't want to go to heaven, even if it existed. I didn't hang with the "saints" in life, I'll
alfredo
May 2013
#17
We know what he thinks of atheists. What does he think of the child rapists and their enablers
stopbush
May 2013
#22
I doubt Pope Francis spends much time reading HuffPo, so if Rosch wants to tell him something
struggle4progress
May 2013
#37
I doubt atheists spend much time listening to the Pope's sermons, so...
Act_of_Reparation
May 2013
#47
I doubt the Pope was expecting atheists to listen to his talk: he seems to have addressed
struggle4progress
May 2013
#48
... The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily
struggle4progress
May 2013
#62