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2016 Postmortem
In reply to the discussion: The Democratic Primary Ruined My Friendship! [View all]Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)341. Clinton and Sanders are not similar, they are opposites.
They are the antithesis of each other, regardless of both voting for the same things at certain times. There is no compromise between the two as people or as nominees, in the same way that it's impossible to be a little bit pregnant. That is not a "purist" statement, it is a factual one.
(For an explanation of the above paragraph, read some of the many sincere and intelligent posts by Sanders supporters on this site, who have been writing about it and documenting it for months now.)
I saw the author of the OP article on one of the MSNBC shows yesterday, not knowing any of her writing including this article, and I was not impressed. The first quote below from her article, seems to be in the right ballpark, but although correct enough as far as it goes, it falls short because she does not get the full meaning of the statement I just made in my subject line and first paragraph above. The reason she doesn't get it, I believe, is that she was born in 1975 which makes her the same age as my children. (I looked up her bio in several places.)
My children (like many others their age, fortunately) understand more than she does because they know that folks who lived during the time events took place, are a better source than books on the subject. And this comes back to what I saw on tv today. She is commenting on a subject she believes she understands, which she does not. Of course, she's not the only one doing the exact same thing today. But the fact remains that the destruction of FDR's Democratic party and its replacement with the Clintons' disgusting Third Way, is something she didn't live, as we older Dems have.
She didn't exist to experience what an FDR America was still rising to achieve after WW2, she didn't exist during Nixon's atrocities and what all of that meant to life at that time, and she was a kid during Reagan's tragic demolition of FDR America, just as she was a school student through the Clinton years and all the well-hidden corrosion that administration produced then and since. Many principal players in these tragedies still remain on the stage today, more such as Kissinger are still in the wings mentoring people like HRC, and certainly their ideas are still very much at the core of the continuing destruction going on now.
The victors write history. So the reality of those times, especially times of such repression and persecution (read the Church Committee findings, and my sig line), has never been written into history book or treatises on this-and-that, which are used to indoctrinate people like the author at institutions of higher propaganda like Berkeley and NYU.
Could we get some professionals in the political media and commentary realm who know these issues first hand? Could those of us who were there and politically aware be listened to at all before we all drive off of this cliff in front of us? What does it take to restore some semblance of reality to what we're doing here?
Us old people are trying to tell you (general "you" Dems) you're putting pedophiles in charge of the kindergarten -- do you give a damn? The answer would seem to be no, judging by Clinton's "inevitability".
I could understand this if, as is usually the case, there was no GOOD CHOICE among the choices. But the reason why this election is so telling, is that there IS ONE, and it is being rejected for the worst of the worst. Good God, people, quit pounding your social justice bullshit drum for 10 seconds and look at what is true. Information abounds. The responsibility for this next chapter of tragedy for America is squarely on the shoulders of those forcing us into this disgusting madness of putting the Clintons in the White House AGAIN. Oh. My. God.
Which brings us back to this site. I appreciate what you tried to do by posting this article, Skinner. But if there is a clamp down on Sanders posters here, I fear it really will for all intents and purposes end this site as we know it, and that would be a shame in my view. I HOPE you don't do that. If you must, I really hope you take the suggestion of IdaBriggs and others above, and clone this site for us original Dems, the FDR wing. I value this site, I value many of the people on it, and I would like to see its resources continue, in some fashion.
That's my two cents, for what it's worth. The quotes below are others from the article. Bolding mine.
"The river is high
And the bridges are burning
I know I've been hurt
But I keep on returning
I have traveled the paths of desire
Following smoke and remembering fire
The night is falling
The path is receding
I don't need to see it to know
Where it's leading"
("Paths of Desire", October Project)
(For an explanation of the above paragraph, read some of the many sincere and intelligent posts by Sanders supporters on this site, who have been writing about it and documenting it for months now.)
I saw the author of the OP article on one of the MSNBC shows yesterday, not knowing any of her writing including this article, and I was not impressed. The first quote below from her article, seems to be in the right ballpark, but although correct enough as far as it goes, it falls short because she does not get the full meaning of the statement I just made in my subject line and first paragraph above. The reason she doesn't get it, I believe, is that she was born in 1975 which makes her the same age as my children. (I looked up her bio in several places.)
My children (like many others their age, fortunately) understand more than she does because they know that folks who lived during the time events took place, are a better source than books on the subject. And this comes back to what I saw on tv today. She is commenting on a subject she believes she understands, which she does not. Of course, she's not the only one doing the exact same thing today. But the fact remains that the destruction of FDR's Democratic party and its replacement with the Clintons' disgusting Third Way, is something she didn't live, as we older Dems have.
She didn't exist to experience what an FDR America was still rising to achieve after WW2, she didn't exist during Nixon's atrocities and what all of that meant to life at that time, and she was a kid during Reagan's tragic demolition of FDR America, just as she was a school student through the Clinton years and all the well-hidden corrosion that administration produced then and since. Many principal players in these tragedies still remain on the stage today, more such as Kissinger are still in the wings mentoring people like HRC, and certainly their ideas are still very much at the core of the continuing destruction going on now.
The victors write history. So the reality of those times, especially times of such repression and persecution (read the Church Committee findings, and my sig line), has never been written into history book or treatises on this-and-that, which are used to indoctrinate people like the author at institutions of higher propaganda like Berkeley and NYU.
Could we get some professionals in the political media and commentary realm who know these issues first hand? Could those of us who were there and politically aware be listened to at all before we all drive off of this cliff in front of us? What does it take to restore some semblance of reality to what we're doing here?
Us old people are trying to tell you (general "you" Dems) you're putting pedophiles in charge of the kindergarten -- do you give a damn? The answer would seem to be no, judging by Clinton's "inevitability".
I could understand this if, as is usually the case, there was no GOOD CHOICE among the choices. But the reason why this election is so telling, is that there IS ONE, and it is being rejected for the worst of the worst. Good God, people, quit pounding your social justice bullshit drum for 10 seconds and look at what is true. Information abounds. The responsibility for this next chapter of tragedy for America is squarely on the shoulders of those forcing us into this disgusting madness of putting the Clintons in the White House AGAIN. Oh. My. God.
Which brings us back to this site. I appreciate what you tried to do by posting this article, Skinner. But if there is a clamp down on Sanders posters here, I fear it really will for all intents and purposes end this site as we know it, and that would be a shame in my view. I HOPE you don't do that. If you must, I really hope you take the suggestion of IdaBriggs and others above, and clone this site for us original Dems, the FDR wing. I value this site, I value many of the people on it, and I would like to see its resources continue, in some fashion.
That's my two cents, for what it's worth. The quotes below are others from the article. Bolding mine.
...
The ideological divide between Sanders and Clinton, however, is much wider than that between Clinton and Barack Obama. The 2008 primary was a battle over representation, raw because it pit the first female candidate with a legitimate shot at the presidency against the first black one. There was not, however, much of a gap between what Clinton and Obama hoped to accomplish in office.
This year is different. Its a split between liberalism and the left, between those who seek greater representation within the existing system and those who would replace it entirely. Liberals cant understand why those to their left refuse to recognize that incremental progress is better than none, particularly given the intolerable danger of the modern GOP. Leftists are increasingly convinced that liberals, ever eager to compromise, aspire to nothing beyond a more diverse ruling class and are thus obstacles to revolution.
...
On the other side is Khaldoun Khelil, a 39-year-old of Palestinian-Algerian descent who is appalled to see some of his female friends overlooking Clintons awful rhetoric on Palestine.* Im a passionate supporter of womens rights and other progressive ideals, but when I ask for the same support from them to stand behind me and Palestinianssuddenly Im a Bernie Bro, he says. Khelil feels personally wounded by the silence of his Clinton-supporting friends in the face of their candidates lopsided pro-Israel rhetoric. It just turned my stomach, he told me. I think the bad feelings will persist. It showed me that Im kind of a lower peer.
...
Talking to people on both sides of the divide, I heard similar sentiments over and over. People thought their friendships were built on a shared worldview. They thought their friends respected their experiences, their judgments, and their identities. But the primary has revealed opposing priorities and, fundamentally, different apprehensions of reality. I feel like Im living in the Twilight Zone, says Katie Halper, a writer, radio host, and outspoken Sanders supporter. To her, Clintons flaws are manifold and glaring, and watching fellow feminists deny them is driving her mad. This is the first time Ive ever felt gaslit in my life, she adds.
...
Angie Aker, a 37-year-old web writer and progressive activist in Kenosha, Wisconsin...
Im not going to refuse to do business with Hillary supporters or start fights with them at our friends bridal showers, but neither will I ever forget that when they had a chance to vote for and support a truly progressive future for people worse off than them, they decided a neoliberal feminist-in-name-only getting her turn was more important, she replied. It will color the way I see them from here on out, as Im sure the force with which Ive spoken against their views will color how they see me. With that last part, at least, Clinton supporters will surely agree.
"The river is high
And the bridges are burning
I know I've been hurt
But I keep on returning
I have traveled the paths of desire
Following smoke and remembering fire
The night is falling
The path is receding
I don't need to see it to know
Where it's leading"
("Paths of Desire", October Project)
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To borrow a gif from M0rpheus, one of my fave DUers ever, some of these folks here have me like this
Number23
Apr 2016
#201
Just one more example of the incivility of late--back in the day, even when we had heated
MADem
Apr 2016
#93
Could it be that the differences between candidates was never this stark? That a true leader emerged
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#227
Obama admits it. Did you "seriously" take a "news vacation" during that period of time?
MADem
Apr 2016
#407
Skinner changed the five hides rule because it was clear that Sanders supporters
NuclearDem
Apr 2016
#17
I have seen lots of abuse on DU that skinner never seemed to care about
R. Daneel Olivaw
Apr 2016
#23
Well, if the primaries are really over, no reason to not turn the timeouts back on.
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2016
#58
I'm guessing the 5 hide won't be turned back on until the primary is declared over which Skinner
seaglass
Apr 2016
#329
I'd rather see the DU'ers who were abusing the jury system get more time to reflect.
KittyWampus
Apr 2016
#355
Take a pleasant stroll around some of the transparency pages in question
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2016
#398
Is that more Brock Dark Talk? Or are you just guessing? Either way, pretty lame.
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#225
Wow, Hilly people love to clutch at pearls inasmuch as it diverts drom the discussion.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Apr 2016
#325
You nailed it. So many people have given up voting. Independents make up the biggest group now.
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#222
the reason he has us "freed from time outs" is because that tiny minority is over represented here
KittyWampus
Apr 2016
#351
I would have to say that I am not surprised to see this from an owner admin.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Apr 2016
#6
Its not an impending "purge" ....it's a personal self administered Enema by those wilfully violating
pkdu
Apr 2016
#40
However ya wanna spin it if ut majes you mite comfortable with the outcome.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Apr 2016
#241
When the hell are the corporate loving conservatives going to start doing that?
TheKentuckian
Apr 2016
#324
Really--and there is that lovely "Discussionist" with no pesky "Support Democrats" TOS.
MADem
Apr 2016
#132
It's not my fault that you jumped in while I was editing--there was almost no time between the
MADem
Apr 2016
#307
Your silence and now your comments are all about denigration of Bernie. Why?
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#237
I am very PROUD of my transparency page--thanks for linking so I didn't have to.
MADem
Apr 2016
#409
because the Democrats supporting Clinton have been too polite to say much about it.
passiveporcupine
Apr 2016
#444
Well, I went through the first three of your hides and only one of them seemed legit
Number23
Apr 2016
#208
Have you tried forming your own political website? I say this in the kindest way possible...
Hekate
Apr 2016
#170
If Skinner starts purging people who dislike-to-despise HRC, he'd have to slash almost all of DU.
Arugula Latte
Apr 2016
#419
Um yeah, my husband and son voted for Sanders in the primary. I have family members
seaglass
Apr 2016
#336
You know damn well that there are outsider elements here manipulating both sides.
onehandle
Apr 2016
#18
This isn't just some regular primary. We are fighting for the soul of our party.
rhett o rick
Apr 2016
#25
I'd rationalize accuracy as something else too were my candidate of choice dependent on it.
LanternWaste
Apr 2016
#363
The ACA is failing. Insurance companies are pulling out of the exchanges. Hello.
rhett o rick
Apr 2016
#46
But some here are working for the side that has put us where we are today.
rhett o rick
Apr 2016
#358
How can you keep trying? His answer, "I'm an optimist." That says it all & nothing at same time.
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#247
It's hard to remain an optimist when our economy keeps sliding backwards
passiveporcupine
Apr 2016
#448
I really think you do not understand the difference between covered and
Luminous Animal
Apr 2016
#209
No, it's succeeding. A single national insurance co dropped out that never was a major player anyway
pnwmom
May 2016
#518
Reminds me of the post we had about a friend going to the ER for a broken arm that cost mega-bucks.
Hekate
Apr 2016
#180
Hey, I'm one of those silly people who LOVE that ACA got passed and signed in any form at all!
Hekate
Apr 2016
#255
So do I get your post as saying we should accept what we've got and shut up?
rhett o rick
Apr 2016
#467
Well, isn't that the point. It isn't working whether because people can't afford or other
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#254
That points out the basic flaw in the ACA -- Private health insurance is a bad business model
Armstead
Apr 2016
#323
The ACA provided health care to me, a person with severe medical conditions.
musicblind
Apr 2016
#140
Thank you for letting us know. I hope the increased access helps you a whole lot.
Hekate
Apr 2016
#183
Wrong. CBO numbers show it is slowing the rate of cost increases. We need to do more, but
pnwmom
May 2016
#519
+1. The soul of the party is exactly right. Very few of the convos here are about who we like
JudyM
Apr 2016
#112
Sadly when we say we are fighting for a fair break for the 99% we get ridiculed.
rhett o rick
Apr 2016
#174
You've 800 posts and been here since march and you are telling us what's for?
rhett o rick
Apr 2016
#179
You don't win if you have to sell your soul. Clinton wants to amass a huge fortune.
rhett o rick
Apr 2016
#195
If anything good came out of it, at least we know for certain who the fakes are.
onecaliberal
Apr 2016
#427
I love my family, friends, the planet. A candidate tepid or agnostic on climate change fucks us over
riderinthestorm
Apr 2016
#36
So having friends is more important than saving the planet, getting kids out of poverty, providing
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#267
I used to live in Nawlins in the early 80's, climate change is gonna be a real drag there
Fumesucker
Apr 2016
#210
Noted that so changed but you saw it too quickly. Like me, you're addicted. :)
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#277
Well, good point. But if the GOP has the Presidency AND Congress, they will be unstoppable.
randome
Apr 2016
#411
There are a whole bunch of people in the ME and Afghanistan who would say different
PaulaFarrell
Apr 2016
#284
You're right in that primaries - save 2012, for obvious reasons - are always ugly as hell here.
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2016
#294
It absolutely cannot be said any more perfectly than you just said it. Every word.
arcane1
Apr 2016
#62
Ya, and one of those hides. A Sanders supported jury, just as Joe stated. Nt
seabeyond
Apr 2016
#343
Every once in a while one post catches your eye, stark in its realness...authenticity.
RiverLover
Apr 2016
#71
Agreed. It did not go unnoticed who was allowed to return with lots o hides. Not Bernie supporters
corkhead
Apr 2016
#111
Says you who attack new members here both as paid trolls and on personal levels...
nolawarlock
Apr 2016
#125
Suggestion, Sir: Go ahead and "call it", but reinstate the timeouts for those w/transparency showing
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2016
#54
This campaign has tested my identity as a lifetime Dem. That never happened before.
leveymg
Apr 2016
#66
It wouldn't be nearly as interesting. Preaching to each other would get old fast.
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#287
Okay, I'll have to admit I enjoy a little verbal fisticuffs myself, but around here
senz
Apr 2016
#309
Appeal to his financial side and join me in asking him for a new site *Progressive Underground*
JimDandy
Apr 2016
#163
Setting up a site that directly challenges a Hillary presidency that would likely
Luminous Animal
Apr 2016
#224
I've found, to my horror, that some "committed progressives" are all too willing to
MADem
Apr 2016
#85
Did you read the article? It was balanced fairly between both Sanders and Clinton supporters. n/t
musicblind
Apr 2016
#157
IIRC you're happy to vote for HRC in the election. You're a HRC supporter now.
aikoaiko
Apr 2016
#319
If she makes it to the general, of course I will support her. I support the democratic party.
musicblind
Apr 2016
#441
Either way Skinner's article in the OP is still heavily weighted against Bernie's supporters.
aikoaiko
Apr 2016
#446
That's why that poster thought it was unfair, because it wasn't biased towards Bernie
stevenleser
Apr 2016
#451
Are you saying that you are unaware of any specific lies that Hillary has told?
Doctor_J
Apr 2016
#141
My whole family and my friends are all for Bernie, so that was not a problem for us.
JimDandy
Apr 2016
#106
why not just go to jackpine radicals? A poster suggested that for me . . . or will I be hidden now?
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#295
There will be a big change at JP soon. We are moving to a more user friendly software.
Autumn
Apr 2016
#432
I had the devils own time getting used to that software and I still only reply.
Autumn
Apr 2016
#457
Oh please, those were some nasty ass comments and they are there to see courtesty
Bluenorthwest
Apr 2016
#439
Why all the anti-Bernie graphics? Mean spirited? Kind of in-your-face isn't it?
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#389
Perhaps it is because some individuals are made up entirely of invective and snark:
Bluenorthwest
Apr 2016
#338
Why not go to Discussionist? All bets are off over there, and you can muster your
MADem
Apr 2016
#263
Seems like a good destination for conservatives. You all can discuss the evils of "free stuff",
TheKentuckian
Apr 2016
#340
It's a free for all over there--all bets are off. Uber-left/Ultra-right, it's all good in that yard.
MADem
Apr 2016
#415
Absolutely serious. There is a clear fracture line in the Dem party now and on DU
JimDandy
Apr 2016
#218
Good reply. Totally accurate. Right-leaning and passive-aggressive. A lot of that in HRC grps.
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#299
You have a legacy to be proud of. I'm looking at here and now and that's what I see.
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#388
If you lost a friendship over the primary I need to know your definition of "friendship"
UMTerp01
Apr 2016
#135
"The people who came to hate each other over the Democratic primary are a small...
herding cats
Apr 2016
#149
Some people need to grow up. I have friends that are Trump supporters. Friendship is
jillan
Apr 2016
#156
In the first sentence I can tell this BS supporter doesn't know what he's talking about .. who knew?
Cha
Apr 2016
#173
Me either. One of my closest friends is a Republican. A Log Cabin Republican at that.
Luminous Animal
Apr 2016
#188
I can't imagine being a Republican and having to choose between "Lucifer" Cruz and Trump the buffoon
Beacool
Apr 2016
#190
I've been trying to convince him to change his party affiliation to unaffiliated before the
Luminous Animal
Apr 2016
#200
See, we can all come together after the primaries is over to support the candidate that we like!
akbacchus_BC
Apr 2016
#248
K & R. I've tried to take some solace in noticing that most of the truly belligerent feces-throwers
Maru Kitteh
Apr 2016
#192
Disagree. Taft was clearly progressive, but more conservative than the other two.
andym
May 2016
#524
But skinner didn't stand by and do nothing. He opened the gates for the HRC supporters
R. Daneel Olivaw
Apr 2016
#280
Oh, perhaps bigotry on the part of those who aren't in the majority on DU
R. Daneel Olivaw
Apr 2016
#326
That person you're responding towas a victim of the jury system to the point they got a timeout once
Capt. Obvious
Apr 2016
#370
Nope, and you created a straw man in your attempt to accuse Nance of using a logical fallacy
stevenleser
Apr 2016
#471
On the contrary, this primary has restored lost friendships with many of my RW family members
tularetom
Apr 2016
#260
What a read. Two things: task analyzers and relational bloggers; if graphics matter, HRC most rude
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#308
You are describing "institutional memory." Now that I'm older, I see how fast it can be lost.
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#404
Is it just a label for you? Don't you care that your party has moved so far right?
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#405
Takes time to wind down. Teams represent principles and values. It is intense. Shouldn't it be?
snowy owl
Apr 2016
#406
How disappointed would you be if 1/4 of your Democrat friends gave up and decided to support Kasich?
Attorney in Texas
Apr 2016
#424
With Sanders supporters controlling juries that's the equivalent of two hides
stevenleser
Apr 2016
#466
Yep, and they are the first to cry "censorship" if something nasty gets hidden- but alert stalk
bettyellen
Apr 2016
#499
And the irony is, in order for a Sanders supporter to get something hidden, at least two
stevenleser
Apr 2016
#506