Economic `Armageddon' predicted (Chief Economist Morgan Stanley)

[RamboLiberal]

http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=55356

Stephen Roach, the chief economist at investment banking giant Morgan Stanley, has a public reputation for being bearish.

But you should hear what he's saying in private.

Roach met select groups of fund managers downtown last week, including a group at Fidelity.

His prediction: America has no better than a 10 percent chance of avoiding economic ``armageddon.''

Press were not allowed into the meetings. But the Herald has obtained a copy of Roach's presentation. A stunned source who was at one meeting said, ``it struck me how extreme he was - much more, it seemed to me, than in public.''

[donsu]

1. when stuff happens they will close the banks at some point

in the armageddon.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

102. What do you expect when the tax on profit from a stock sale is around 15%

and the tax on a dividend is nearly 50%. They are dissing the idea of real investment in favor of short term gain.

[OneOneBravo]

227. That is incorrect

http://www.fool.com/taxes/2003/taxes030620.htm

[The Zanti Regent]

120. but WHO NEEDS MONEY when we have JESUS?

I cannot wait to see the looks on the faces of the fools who belong to the Presidential Prayer Team!

[Kablooie]

171. Jesus advocated poverty didn't he?

You may be impoverished of earthly goods but you will enriched by the love of Jesus.
This, obviously, is all you need.

If you die of starvation, no problem, Jesus will embrace you in his bloody arms and welcome you to everlasting life in heaven. Just jim dandy, I'd say.

[The Zanti Regent]

188. Your TV Preachers dissent from that

After all, they love to BS about how God Blesses the chosen with Cadillacs.

[Ladyhawk]

327. But only if they send in their money now. :) n/t

[GoBlue]

2. Morgan Stanley contributions to 2004 Pres candidates

Bush, George W (R)
$591,230

Clark, Wesley (D)
$19,550

Dean, Howard (D)
$29,350

Source: www.opensecrets.org

[Robert Oak]

6. yet another point of insanity

They know it's unsustainable yet support and vote in the
destructor.

Gee wiz, how long can America buy $40k cars while being shafted
on jobs?

How hard is it to understand this? Not very. Which makes me
wonder what the true motivation of the Shrub is.

I have concluded they desire to completely destroy the US as a nation state.

[Teaser]

9. Roach is only their smartest guy.

He doesn't tell the suits which politicians to support money.
Suits are the same from company to company. Geniuses like Roach, well, they are one of a kind.

[joeunderdog]

312. this is interesting. written before the dollar drop.

http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/oldupdates/2004/0618.html

[dArKeR]

20. Remember that movie about the child, son of Satan,

who was taken in and raised by the US VP, Gregory Peck. That was the end of the movie to show how Satan would rise in America. It's time to stop associating Satan with the Bush/GOP Family in fun. It's time to start taking a serious look at this! These people are here to destroy America.

[Debbie13]

37. Bush Admin wants to destory America

The movie was the Omen and it must have been somewhat based on Biblical prophesies. Dubya certainly fits the bill, now doesn't he?

[Straight Shooter]

47. Beware the Cult of W

The cultists have taken over (almost).

[genieroze]

49. Does that mean the fundies are in league with

the AntiChrist and they know it.

[tavalon]

58. I was raised on that Revelations stuff

It means they are in league with the AntiChrist and don't know it. Sadly, just as they were warned.

[judaspriestess]

119. Bush is part of the illuminati n/t

[Indiana_Dem]

180. You're right. Like sheep to the slaughter.nt

[calimary]

143. I'm starting to think they ARE in league with the AntiChrist - but

they do NOT know it. Because the AntiChrist just might be our boy bushie. How else do you explain the way NOTHING bad seems to stick to him, he gets away with everything almost as though he made a deal with the Devil, he's praised to the skies as a man of God when he's the biggest liar and double-dealer on the planet - worse than Ahmed Chalabi, and he's charming as hell. That, in particular, is what's been said about the AntiChrist. He, too, is charming as hell, and beguiles LEGIONS of people to follow him adoringly and slavishly.

[Debbie13]

144. What bigger irony than to have the people who consider

themselves Christ's followers to be the ones to allow the anti-christ in to power.

[carnie_sf]

176. You have to see this web site

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/

[54anickel]

211. GACK!!!!!...I knew it!....n/t

[Ladyhawk]

329. Interesting site, but it's just "fun with numbers"

Fundies use this method all the time to "prove" things to the faithful. An atheist came back and proved something using Melville's Moby Dick. I can't remember the exact prophecy, but it was there.

Most of the New Testament (including Revelation, I believe) was written in Greek. Now, does Bush's name in Greek add up to 666? Using Hebrew as a "proof" is a red herring. Shrub isn't Jewish and "John" the author of Revelation didn't write it in Hebrew. Maybe he couldn't even speak it. I don't know.

Personally, I think he was on some mighty fine weed at the time. :)

If you'll notice, the author only uses numbering systems that "work." How about Unicode, Arabic, etc.?

Yes, the shrub is evil. I think we all might die because of him. But I don't put much stock in what some stoned guy wrote 2000 years ago.

[RaleighNCDUer]

229. Well, it is exactly what is prophesised.

I know that, and I'm an atheist. The wingnut fundies expect the antichrist to be someone like Saddam or OBL, but that is not what their own book says.

It's almost scary enough to give me religion.

[jwirr]

148. In this line of thought it

is also interesting that they are looking for a New World Order connected to the UN. However, it is the bushies who are building this New World Order.

[Debbie13]

149. With Bush as King

.....

[True_Blue]

164. Bush certainly qualifies as the A-C

George (6) Walker (6) Bush Jr (6).

His plan for New World Order.

Bush is deceptive like the anti-christ.

He took power illegitimately.

It almost seems like he is getting ready for the battle of Armageddon, which is suppose to take place in Babylon.

If there is an anti-christ, it probably is Bush.

[Gore1FL]

214. One caveat though is he isn't a Jr

He'd have to be George H.W. Bush Jr to be a Jr.

[Puglover]

242. Hell

where does that leave those of us who aren't fooled by his bullshit?

[Emillereid]

285. I'm not a Christian (except in the sermon of the mount kind of way) so

obviously I don't believe the antichrist stuff in a literal way -- but I love the sentiment behind the following website:

bushisantichrist.com/

[Firefly2004]

316. How to Make Armaggedon Happen

Lately, with the current events that have been unfolding, I have been able to imagine how the prophesies in Revelations could come true. I can't help myself. I feel skeptical about the workings of my imagination, but I can't stop them. I regard them like this: what if I were playing a computer game, a simulation, and the name of the game were how to bring about Armageddon in America? I could control some variables and players. One player would be Reverend Moon. Another would be Dubya. Another would be the churches. The economy would be a variable. So would Peak Oil. Israel and the Middle East would be players, of course. So would North Korea.

Here's how I could try to win the game. I could simultaneously promote faith-based initiatives while driving the deficit up so high that other government programs had to be slashed and while devaluing the dollar so much that I sparked the controlled burns of managed recessions. In wave after wave of recession, people would be forced to turn to the churches in order to survive. They would naturally be more inclined to feel grateful and scared; their minds would be more open to the "Good News". None of this would be a problem, really, if the churches were really full of the spirit of God.

But here's what I would do to make the churches worship the Beast without knowing it. Reverend Moon would be a player. He would travel across the country giving money to the churches and promoting their pet projects, such as strengthening families, etc. Meanwhile, he would quietly ask them to take down the crosses in their churches and replace them with his Unification Symbol. Oh, and it would be swept under the rug, the fact that he was recently crowned Messiah in the Dirksen Senate Office Building.
http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=131


"I don't agree with him about everything," they would say, "but I support his goals of strengthening families." Others would believe he really was the Messiah in his second coming. Moon would go to North Korea and continue to gather more and more followers there, who would believe he is the Messiah.

The effects of Peak Oil would hit, as well as the effects of global climate change. People worldwide would suffer from flooding, hurricanes, fires, droughts and other disasters. War would wrack the globe. We would be on the brink of nuclear war with North Korea. Moon would negotiate peace with Bush, and the two of them would then establish world government with world religion, worshipping Moon. A new ere of a global family of families, with Moon as the True Father of all the families, would be heralded. All of the American people whose families depended upon faith based iniatives for their survival would have to accept Moon as the True Father, or their children would live on the streets and be persecuted. Americans at this point would be even more scared than they were right after 9/11. They would be battered by unemployment, even by starvation. Things would be so terrible before the new global order, and so good afterwards, that most people would welcome it. Those who did not would be branded Liberals and Treasons.

Now, as I said, this would be in the game. It is a sort of simulation in my imagination. I don't believe in it. But it freaks me out to imagine it. And it seems so plausible in many ways. What I know from reading the novels of Umberto Eco is that the human mind has an innate and overwhelming capacity to construct narratives. In his novels The Name of the Rose and Foucalt's Pendulum, the plots were about protagonists who were like intellectual detectives on the trail of consipracy, only to find out at the end that the whole elaborate narrative was entirely the product of their minds. I'm sure that's what's going on here, with me. The only difference between me and these characters is that I am distanced from and skepitical of my own imagination. But if I believed in God, I would probably believe in the conspiracy that I imagine.

[not fooled]

94. well, they like to tout his biblical bona fides

probably being the antichrist is not however the one they had in mind for the dumbass *-loving bible thumpers

[Hotler]

110. The neo-cons make no bones about...

wanting to eliminate government all together. They want a country where everything is run by business and corporations. They want a one party system.

[Pachamama]

122. Not "One Party" - "One World Party" system....n/t

:eyes:

[lark]

138. In other words

they are facists.

lark

[They_LIHOP]

128. Bush IS the Anti_Christ...

There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

When you review the prophesies describing how the AC is to comport himself, there is scarcely a single trait * does not have.

I'd say it's funny how 'taken' the so-called 'Christians' are with GWB if the ramifications of my being right weren't so terrifying.

I mean, it's right there in Revelations that the AC would fool many people with his overt declarations of 'faith', yet I guess our 'righties' here in the US are just too damn SMART and OBJECTIVE to EVER get fooled by the machinations of the Devil himself...

[Debbie13]

146. I'm going to check into some of this, but one thing, wasn't the AC

suppose to bring peace a moment of peace into the world?

Also, I myself had been joking before the election about King George and I read one of the predictions was that he would be called "king".

[Zorra]

52. All evidence indicates that this is true. n/t

[barb162]

67. the Omen (that was a good movie)

[distantearlywarning]

79. Not to sound like a complete nut job, but I must agree.

I really think there is some scary and possibly supernatural shit going down out there right now.

I'm *honestly* not the kind of person who generally puts a lot of faith in prophecy or crazy religious stuff, but some things have really creeped me out lately.

[Art_from_Ark]

100. You wanna be REALLY creeped out?

Take a look at this coin (the tails side of Eisenhower and Anthony dollars)

http://www.usmint.gov/kids/images/campCoin/1971Eisenhower$1_rev.gif

Then take a look at this Bible verse:

Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD. (Obadiah 1:4, King James Version).

It's almost as if the writer of that verse had been looking at that coin as he wrote

[LastDemocratInSC]

310. Actually, this image is related to the Apollo 11 lunar landing in 1969

There are 13 stars ... we know what they represent. There is the eagle descending to the lunar surface ... the Apollo 11 lunar module was named Eagle and the image of an eagle with the olive branches in its claws was on the crew's mission patch. They designed it.

[ilovenicepeople]

279. Not only destroy America but the whole world as well

I used to be an atheist but the level of evil prevalent nowadays has forced me to ask why is this happening.I believe the minions of darkness have used "fundamentalist" Christianity to further there control over the masses.Bushs grandfather Prescott helped Hitlers war machine come to power and he was one of top beneficiaries from the death camp factory known as Auschwitz.I will keep posting this website in hopes that I can help wake up as many people to the New World Order that we see taking control all around us.Please take the time to check it out. PLEASE!! www.infowars.com and please don't flame me for trying to get the word out.Thank You GOD BLESS

[cassiepriam]

95. Destruction

I think Paul Krugman wrote a column once saying that
a foreign hostile govt could not have designed a better
"leader" than Bush. Someone who would totally undermine
the US govt, and destroy the country. It makes you wonder.

[Pachamama]

123. I love Krugman...he was a Prof of mine....

...and what he taught me has me terrified about what is coming....economic disaster of immense proportions....

[cassiepriam]

126. I love him too

from reading his columns. He is a true hero.
Brilliant, courageous. I am sad that he is
not writing publicly while he writes a text book.
Can you tell me more about what he said in your classes?
About the coming economic melt down?

[Pachamama]

131. He used to speak of "red flags" and said a scenario that had

the list of "red flags" would result in an economic meltdown...interest rates skyrocketing, inflation and the currency so devalued that the currency would be similar to how the way of the Italian Lire went many years ago (ie. one day a pack of gum was 10 lires - then it was 1000 lires)....When asked by a student if that could happen here, he would say oh no....

But that was years ago...now I'm sure he would say - "Looks like those "red flags" are all in place here, aren't they?"

One of the things he talked about was how a government could "switch" currencies....

Hmmmm....do you think the mighty "$" could get a 2006 facelift or name change? Makes one wonder if things get bad enough, eh?

[yardwork]

172. Later in the article it's suggested that Greenspan may let inflation rise

and the dollar continue to drop, in order to minimize the impact of the staggering American debt.

When inflation goes truly sky-high, countries do change their currency. That has never happened in the United States as far as I know.

[cassiepriam]

248. yes of course

all with bush's pics on it .......

[lark]

140. Tin hat stuff

Prescott Bush was indicted for trading with the enemy - he helped the Nazi war machine. Wonder if this is all left over Nazi stuff? It's certainly not American!

lark

[nashville_brook]

320. doesn't make me wonder

it's what i've thought all along. hubris kills empires dead.

[XemaSab]

97. I've concluded

That their goal is to return us to a feudal system where workers are an expendable commodity bound to an angry corporate master.

[kittykitty]

107. I agree completely

[camby]

190. ok they can declare success on that score --

we're already there!!!

[0rganism]

200. For the diversified ultra-rich, a bear market means a stock shopping spree

There are two classes of people who will continue to do extremely well during this "economic armageddon": investment bankers and televangelists.

[reprobate]

331. I've heard it daid that we may be at the end of the Nation State.

We see europe uniting even to incluse russia. South america is uniting to include most of the spanish speaking peoples. The pacific rim just needs japan and korea to agree, and I think they are talking now.

Just about the last thing standing in the way is us. The US.

One must wonder if the attack on the dollare we are seeing now is backlash against our standing in the way. Do they want us to join canada and mexico as just another trading block? Have we outlived our usefullness as an Empire?

Time will tell. I sure cant.

[DuaneBidoux]

10. Well, either that or he realized it was inevitable even with Kerry

(this is what I feel...I believe that damage was already too great to be fixed) and felt he want the guy who had created the shitpile to have to sleep in the shitpile.

[leesa]

53. Bush is the best looter for them. Look at how much of our

treasury he has put in the pockets of his friends in the elite community. Thta's his job and he's very good at it because he is a good criminal.

[American Tragedy]

135. Morgan Stanley invested thousands of dollars in....Bush, Clark, Dean?

Does anybody else think that is a rather contradictory pattern of campaign donations?

[Carolab]

142. No, it's very typical

they give a LOT to who they really want to win

and a little to the ones they don't

in the interest of trying to appear "nonpartisan"

[American Tragedy]

157. Covering their bets, I suppose.

Still, those are very large sums of money, at least to the average American. It seems silly to squander tens of thousands of dollars on vanity donations.

[swag]

304. Roach gave $2000 to Kerry in 2004

[barb162]

3. more and more people are coming out and saying the same thing

shrub's policies are going to destroy this country one way or another

[GregD]

4. What's the impact of this on real estate?

Is anyone here well-informed, or a professional, in a position to speak to this "authoritatively"?

[Bozita]

5. Lotsa foreclosures coming

Marginal home buyers with variable rate mortgages are the victims.

[GregD]

11. yeah, I can see that

I guess I'm wondering what the impact is on housing values.

I've been thinking about selling my home, and moving out of the Bay Area. I already have the home I will move to, so it's a matter of timing at this point. Sell now, and move in the Winter - or wait for Spring as I had planned.

Not that I can imagine Marin County suffering much of a hit; this is a very desirable area, and I would think there will always be enough wealthy folks to keep the laws of supply/demand and therefore values in some reasonable value of check.

There was this post last night where Steve Forbes expresses similar concerns.

I wonder how much time we have...

[Bozita]

12. Lenders don't want to hold houses

They will dump them on the market for whatever they will bring.

In the early '80s, many simply walked away from their homes. The reduced selling prices eliminated all of their equity.

[louis-t]

14. Many homeowners start out with no equity

I am a Realtor. More than half of the homes I have sold this year were 0 down mortgages. 'No equity, no loss, just walk away' will again be commonplace in the next few years.

[Bluebear]

15. Not only that but folks are ditech.commed up the wazzoo

The moment they get any equity they take out seconds and equity lines and max them out so they HAVE no more equity.

[DanteHicks]

25. That's funny.

I never thought of using ditech.com as a verb.

[Bluebear]

34. And welcome to DU!

[louis-t]

48. Good point, but dontcha know?

It's good for the economy, spend, spend your way into oblivion to make the chimperor happy!

[barb162]

66. yes and that is one of the reasons the consumers have kept

spending even though the economy was not that great the last few years. I don't understand how people can keep spending like this, constantly maxed out...I couldn't sleep. That's the way it was when I got out of school and I couldn't stand it so I started saving to give myself a cushion. Made for better sleep.

[barb162]

64. I didn't know you could buy with zero down. when did that start?

[joeunderdog]

154. Homeowner equity is at an all-time low. n/t

[4dsc]

69. There is an alternative too

if you bought your house during this bubble and the market crashes, your bank will not want to foreclose to quickly. What you'll have to do is renegociate the price with your lender and let them take the beating.. They would rather do this then attempt to sell houses in a depressed market!! Inamuch as I am not looking forward to the upcoming crash, if there is one, I will simply go to my bank and tell my house isn't worth what I paid for it and its not time to renegociate..

[techconomy]

116. This is true of most creditors and is excellent advice

Most creditors will work with, especially BEFORE you get into real trouble. Most credit card companies will even negotiate down the amount you owe, but not before they whack your credit report. IMO at that point it's just about the same difference to go bankrupt.

[barb162]

32. you know, I should sell my house and buy a smaller one and I have

thought of this many times over the last several months watching the economic situation but I like my house and don't want to move. I hope I am not banging my head against the wall the next few years over this decision not to move.

[grasswire]

43. if you have a variable rate mortgage...

...(according to the financial experts I've been watching) you need to immediately get a fixed rate mortgage. If you have a lot of equity in your house you may want to sell it to preserve the equity. As prices fall, it could disappear.

[barb162]

61. umm, 100% equity; I know, if there is a deflating housing market...

[yardwork]

175. If you own your house

and you like your house and intend to live in it for the foreseeable future, there's no reason to sell it and buy another house, as far as I can tell. Just sit tight and ride the armaggedon. No matter what happens, you will still have your house, as long as you can pay the taxes on it.

The people who are in danger of losing their houses are those with more debt than they can really afford or variable rate mortgages. If those folks lose their job, how will they pay the mortgage? If the interest rate goes up, even if their income stays the same, how will they pay?

[barb162]

179. there will be a lot of bankruptcies in the next few months I think

`

[beetle2]

202. The problem with property tax

the problem with property tax is that there is no sliding scale, the hardworking elderly couple who worked all their life to own a $25,000 house pays the same percentage as the billionaire in his $25m mansion.

if you have to pay tax on your property, then you never own it, you just rent it from the state, knowing that if you do not pay, they take it and sell it to the vultures who make tons of money on the backs of the poor.

[barb162]

63. the other thing is I hope the values hold here as I live in an

extremely high rated school district; but I do expect the values to drop as interest rates go up.

[Rolling Titanic]

81. What difference would it make?

If you sold it, the value of your cash would depreciate as well. So why not just keep the roof over your head. Equity means nothing if everyone else in on the streets unable to pay their mortgages. So what if you lose your equity. You still have a house.

[grasswire]

39. I am not a financial advisor

But if I owned a home in the Bay Area, I would want to be on the "sooner" end of this rather than the "later" end when many many people are trying to sell -- people who are desperate to sell because they were undercapitalized. They will bring the prices down for everyone.

I've been begging my retired aunt to sell and get her equity out of the house.

[Debbie13]

161. I'm not a financial advisor either, but if you sell the house and

get cash, won't the cash then be worthless? What would you put the money in? (At least, if the bottom falls out you have a place to live.)

[barb162]

183. the cash would deflate too so you'd have to put it in something

safe. Some people say euros, Canada stocks, maybe utilities, bullion, etc. The thing I wonder is if this turns into a worldwide severe recession or depression, which it could with the price of oil, another war in Iran, any other unrest in the middle east, another terror strike here or Europe, etc. Then what is safe economically?

[0rganism]

204. Safe bets: resource extraction (esp. metals & mining), defense stocks

Generally I would look to blue-chippers with strong lobbies like GE and Alcoa. Probably safer bets than government bonds, if interest rates start to skyrocket. Even if you lose some money in a nasty bear market, you're practically guaranteed to come out of the slide ahead of the game if you can afford to hold the stocks long-term. The bigger of these companies have enough pull with the gov't to keep their stock value increasing at least close to the rate of inflation. The worse the economy gets, the more perks the gov't will throw their way to prop up the numbers.

Of course, if the dollar hyperinflates and the giants crash, all bets are off. You'd be better served investing in a parcel of arable land and some quality firearms, and setting up your own paramilitary/hunting/subsistance-farming commune, than playing the markets. Smart money is on the biggest gangs with the best weaponry, at that point. Probably wouldn't even worry about paying off loans if the worst happens, just bribe the local cops with food and keep the debt collectors at bay with a hail of gunfire...

[KitSileya]

206. That is exactly what I've been advising

tho' I have absolutely no understanding of money, stocks, or the economy. Start brushing up on your self-sufficiency skills. Plant a kitchen garden. Learn how to mend clothes, make food from scratch, find out how to manage without electric devices, read up on bartering techniques, learn how to shoot a gun (get a gun!) Get some medical textbooks, read them, join a first aid class, a self-defense class, a gardening club, and visit a farm and learn how to handle simple livestock, such as pigs, chicken, sheep, and goats - cows and horses too.

Sounds extreme? If push comes to shove, you'll have a better chance at survival than most, and if not, you'll have learned to get by with less - less money, better for you, as if the economy doesn't tank, you might be able to work less, or save up more for your retirement, and less resources, better for the Earth, as you won't contribute to the consumer destruction of the planet.

[Debbie13]

220. Recently I purchased some land

with the idea that if the economy ever tanked I'd have a place to grow food...plus you know the old saying "they're not making any more of it.

Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think that would "really" be a necessity.
At least, it's good farmland, too.

But even if you have only a little land you can produce food.

[KitSileya]

237. Yes, absolutely.

A kitchen garden, or even just containers on the veranda will help, I think. A tomato plant can give you a lot of tomatoes, and if at the same time you learn to can, you can preserve it into the winter - after the oil runs dry, they won't be able to ship them to more Northern latitudes (I live in Norway, so this is pretty serious.)

Self-sufficiency and frugality will stand anyone in good stead, no matter what happens, dire or not.

[barb162]

295. I grow tomatos, asparagus, raspberries , blended in with my

ormnamental/flower gardens. Also I have a great peach tree and 2 dwarf apple trees also in the ornamental garden beds. The thing to do would probably be to move to N. Carolina or a place with that climate where the growing season is a lot longer. I am in northern IL and it is snowing today (like a DAMN BLIZZARD with 40mph gusts). Growing season isn't the longest. Yeah, I think the cottage garden concept will be coming back when things get worse.

[Malva Zebrina]

332. I agree with this one hundred percent

Buy some land and be prepared to work it. We bought a house, a fix up special, 200 y ears old but still straight in it's beams and while we were working added on one room to it's three rooms. Plus an attic, that still has the bark on it's beams.

We are thankful to have paid it off in a relatively small amount of time and are not now in debt as we live only on SS -- cost was 29,000 twenty years ago with one acre of land in a very good location near the water, but far enough away so that we are not taxed for a "water view" or land that is on the water. We can walk to the water view in a matter of a few minutes and we do it often.

We have a large garden and at the present time have 27 quarts of raspberries in the freezer and if we did not have a freezer, I know very well how to dry and how to preserve. We have corn on the cob, swiss chard, peas, rutabaga, summer squash , cabbage, tomatoes and brussel sprouts in the freezer as well as blueberries. The taste is far superior to that which you buy in the supermarket, even though it is frozen and we know there are NO sprays put on it. I have an herb garden and I dry the herbs--as well as make basil pesto to put in the freezer. It can be done, and it can be very uplifting as well as provide exercise.

The satisfaction in doing this is beyond description. We are thankful to have this roof over our heads at this age, and thankful that we will not leave any debt to our survivor children.

[glitch]

333. You are living my dream Malva! nt

[barb162]

292. "setting up your own paramilitary" LOL

with my neighbors on the one side I was thinking of doing this anyway.

[grasswire]

203. Ideally...

....you would sell the house, get the equity out, hold the cash and rent a place for X months until the crash and then buy a house cheaper -- a better house, if you wish. Of course, no one knows precisely when the real estate market will crash and what the bottom will be. Someone tonight said a quick drop of 20 percent loss in value, then evening off for a while. But others who had variable rate mortgages will be walking away from homes, too. Bargains for anyone who has cash.

When you are talking about keeping a home, keep in mind the coming peak oil problem. Fuel for heating is going to be a big problem.

[54anickel]

76. You might want to take this article into consideration -

http://www.prudentbear.com/randomwalk.asp

snip>

The problem, of course, is that Californians have bid up their own home prices so much, they can’t afford them any more. According to SF Gate.com only 15% of households in the Bay Area can afford the median priced home, down from 19% a year ago. “Well, so what?” you can almost hear the San Francisco Chamber of Commerce President say. “We’ve got Barry Bonds and Alcatraz. It ought to cost some dough to live here. I’d like to say more but I’ve got to get this U-Haul to Houston.”

[Pachamama]

125. Hey there fellow Marinite...I'm in Kentfield...I've been thinking the

same thoughts lately....While I agree on the fact that its always going to be a desirable area and enough wealthy people will want to sustain it, I still find it hard to believe that the ridiculous house prices in our area can be sustained....

I'm urging my husband to sell our house by Spring and move by Summer...assuming it isn't too late either....

[barb162]

30. yes, and home values will probably deflate

[Indiana_Dem]

189. Okay, so if the value deflates, then what happens to the property

tax? If it's based on the value of the home (which I think that's what we've gone to recently) then technically the property taxes would come down proportionately, right?

[carolinalady]

215. If your local gov't grants a reassessment of the values...

but don't expect that until the last dog dies.

[genieroze]

51. I had a variable rate so I refinanced it into a low interest locked rate

for 10 years. I only had 15 years left anyway. I was afraid this would happen a year ago. I kept on thinking "this is an election year shouldn't the economy be bangin" Looking at it now maybe this is the best they could do to hold back the flood gates. I'm not sure if I want Kerry to be involved in this mess now. I still want to investigate the fraud that went on so we can prevent it in the future though. Is a depression coming?

[kostya]

8. Lots of for sale signs will be popping up in your neighborhood

after which it will be too late for you to sell, because the prices will plummet. If you have lots of cash in a few years it will be possible to pick up many properties at fire sale prices.

[DanteHicks]

17. Possible snowball effect

If interest rates begin to rise, borrowing money will cost more slowing down the demand for housing. At the same time, homeowners with variable rates will experience increasing mortgage payments therefore increasing debt maintenance outlays per month while decreasing disposable income. This will decrease overall consumer spending which will prompt lower prices on the open market in general. As debt maintenance in housing increases, many owners will be unable to afford their current house and then will choose to sell to access what equity they have left in the house as prices fall. As more and more owners sell, prices come down at a rapid rate causing decreasing property values. At some point, the market will stabilize and only the people who own there homes or have substantial cash reserves will be able to move up to bigger houses at a bargain price. Just like the market, it is better to ride the wave up than ride the wave down. If you have liquid assets at the end of sell off, you will be the better off than sitting on a hard asset (house, land) and watching it's value plummet. Question is: when to hit the eject button? (sell)

[Bozita]

21. You stated it well! ... ... BTW, welcome to DU

Good post!

[DanteHicks]

24. Housing Market is the new Stock Market bubble?

Remember a few years ago when everyone said "this Tech expansion in the market could last for years" right before the tech bubble exploded taking down blue chips with it? Well, we saw how that bubble burst right in our faces. Right now, home ownership is at an all time high but home owner equity is very low on a historical basis. Could this be a harbinger of things to come?

[Bozita]

27. "Housing Bubble" is a new term, ...

... but I am seeing it more frequently.

[cliss]

41. Nice post. Welcome

to the DU!! :smoke: I like to think of the DU as the meeting place of brilliant minds, the ultimate "jungle drums" where we catch trends long before the public becomes aware of them.

I've learned so much in the 1 1/2 years I've been coming here; it could actually mean the difference between getting out before financial ruin.

Thanks.

[mojavekid]

134. Yes, Great posts! ..............We sold our house in August.

We live in Southern Ca. and the market just kept climbing, We had lived in my neighborhood for 18 years, finally bought and built in Nov. 97'. I thought this was IT and that we would grow old in our new home, until we began watching the long term damage * was causing, as well as becoming aware of Peak Oil/general resource depletion.

We sold at the peak of the market in Venice Beach, CA. and have banked the money for now, we rent a modest two bedroom apartment, at a time when rents have finally come off their highs.

Now however, we feel we need to put the money into a safe place and have considered another currency - Swiss Francs, as the dollar continues to depreciate. We intend to buy again, though we want to wait for the right time. I am absolutely not a financial expert, so it comes down to information and timing.

I must say that without DU, and the many, many links it has put us onto, we would still be living in our blissfully ignorant haze...thanks for the wake up call!

[ckramer]

28. Have you heard the phrase - "a tornado in Kansas"?

Rising interest rates will smash into housing prices like a tornado in Kansas, according to Richard Benson.

Check out his professional opinion here.

[VegasWolf]

46. Right, that is a given with all the ARMs out there.

[serryjw]

150. NOT to mention...

We have Way to much inventory of expensive $500K and over in major cities. When the boomers decide to sell to scale back for retiremnt whom is going to buy these homes? There is no generation behind us that is as big or is making this kinda money. If your house is on the upper end >>>>>>GET OUT OF IT NOW! and buy a small house to live in thru hard economical times and PEAK OIL!

[Tellurian]

50. Bush is jubilant his plan is taking shape..

It's been the plan all along...

"The eradication of the middle class!" Roll back 100 years of Progressive thinking back to the old 2 class system of the Rich and the Poor!

Republicans intend to maintain superiority vis a vis Religion and political affiliation. All people will be classified by the 'With Us Or Against Us' mentality as espoused by Bush in the first campaign. The employer's workforce will become the tool designating the 'Haves from the Havenots.' If you are unemployable (by virtue of this distinction) eventually, you will lose your home. Banks heavily involved in the real estate market will sell your house to a like minded associate. And you, depending on the level of your finances, tenacity and verve, will either play the game to survive, or (at your option) be sent to one of the hundreds of vacant concentration camps (already manned by private security) throughout the country, as a threat to National Security under the authority of the Pats Act!

If Kerry doesn't pull our fat out of the fire, we will surly face the inevitable... Armageddon!

[techconomy]

113. Kerry does not control the economy

Kerry, Edwards, Dean, Bush, Guliani, Clinton II, it doesn't mattter Tellurian. What's happening in the private sector is not correlating to the business sector. Businesses are borrowing far less under Bush than Clinton but we as consumers have such a debt load now there is no way out. Literally we have an entire generation of americans that will die indebted to the credit card banks.

I'm praying they don't raise the rate again. They were too slow to cut it in 99 and 2000, and are too fast to raise it now. The economy pulled back the last 30 days without a doubt and I think next month the numbers will show that.

The rest of what you post, well, I think you've gone very far past the point of reasonable conjecture.

[alaintex]

155. True, the leaders don't control the economy...

When you type “Literally” that indicates it’s true with no exaggeration. But I don’t believe “we have an entire generation of Americans that will die indebted to the credit card banks.” But even if we did, so what, it’s the banks problem at that point.

[techconomy]

185. Right

And that is exactly how I meant it. We have an entire generation that will die in debt. Credit card debt has mushroomed for the last two decades through 3 Presidents. This year it will/is breaking 14,000 per person. Making the minimum payments that's over 30 years just to get it paid back if IRs never change.

Savings is at an all time low at less than 2% of income, but in real terms savings is and has been negative for years. If we are constantly increasing our debt and can't manage to save, I don't see how you can believe these debts ever get paid. People don't like debt, if they had a way of paying it they would.

As each year passes the debt gets bigger, and if the increase in rates occur the crushing burden on consumers will tip the scale.

And, it will effect even non-debtors. It's a myth that only debtors are effected. Every bankruptcy works it's way back to the those that pay their bills on time via higher prices, fees, or lost services.

[barb162]

195. a lot of this debt is the result of being squeezed on all sides

There was a book out several months ago on people having to work 2 jobs to just afford houses in good school districts. 30 yrs. ago the husband would work and sometimes the wife would work if they wanted "extras." But they could afford a decent standard of living if just one worked. The middle class squeeze now forces both people to work just to stay afloat, to keep their kids in good school districts. Can't think of the name of the book.

Anyway, then there is another group of people that have to have every toy and their cards are maxed. So they open up even more cards. Wild spending.

[alaintex]

208. Good points all, but let me add:

“People don't like debt, if they had a way of paying it they would.” I’m not so sure of that. What you mean is if they won the Lottery they would, but they're not willing to sacrifice to pay off their debt.

People may not like debt, but they like their cell phones and big screen TV and new cars more. When faced with the choice “Would you be willing to be debt free today if it meant giving up all your toys and living a frugal lifestyle?” most people wouldn’t do it. Even if they owe tens of thoulsands.

And that’s not a problem with the government; it’s a problem with the people.

[techconomy]

219. agreed...mostly

Alaintex the only thing I would add is that it was our government, specifically Dodd, Lieberman and many others that basically deregulated the financial industry. Some of what is going on now is predatory in that 40% APR's should be illegal. They prey on the weakest among us (and often unfortunately least informed. A simple federal law capping rates at an amount above Prime would prevent this.

By mitigating the 14 day grace period what they effectively did is allow banks to jack rates to the sky on consumers that were raised on paying their cards a few days late. It's a scam, and both parties are to blame.

What these banks are doing, and they all do it including Citi, Chase, Bank of America is no different than Joe the Village Knee Breaker loans of the old days. In fact in some cases the off book money is actually cheaper to borrow.

It's a disgrace, and only consumers can drive this bus by making it a key issue in upcoming campaigns.

[alaintex]

236. I’ll concede that loan shark type rates...

I’ll concede that loan shark type rates (or even worse) are crap, but you only pay them if you carry a balance so you can control the interest you pay if you can control your spending.

As far as the grace period goes, just because people were raised on paying their cards a few days late doesn’t mean it ever was - or is now, right.

“But officer, I always drive 80mph, and you never gave me a ticket before!” is not much of a defense.

It’s obvious that you have a better handle on the facts and are more passionate than I on the subject matter. But let’s remember that credit is just a tool, and just because some people can’t use the tool responsibly doesn’t mean the government has to regulate it. Every item you mentioned can be self regulated by the consumer.

But do we know what would happen if you cap interest at X% above prime? Will card companies return to the yearly fee that is almost non-existent today, and I suppose I’ll loose all my airline miles or gas discounts that I get for purchases now, and maybe the cards raise their prices to retailers to make up the difference, so now stores stop taking all those low interest cards. So now your regulation that tries to help the irresponsible debtors ends up hurting the responsible ones.

I’ll admit I like carrying one piece of plastic in my pocket, getting free air miles, not actually paying for anything until the end of the month, and having everything itemized in one invoice. I’ve never paid a late fee, and I’ve never paid a penny in interest. I know I’m the credit card companies second worst nightmare (behind a pro-regulation lobby :) ), but it’s a sweet deal for me.

[techconomy]

243. targets

First, a disclosure in the interest of fairness I am a middle aged white male.

One of the few areas in America that I believe still is racist or racist in a predatory way is lending. A few years ago a study was done that indicated a 4% APR differential between a black man and white man with the same credit buying a car. That's a disgrace. Worse the study found that even black finance managers would penalize fellow black citizens. That kind of goes back to what we are all saying in that we do it to ourselves.

BUT, can you imagine if all jewish people were paying 4% more, or single white women? There would be an outcry of epic proportions. When the democrats try to cater to the black vote they do so in ways that are entirely superficial and ignore immediate potential gains. They should make it a savage penalty on lenders to discriminate against anyone, but they won't because both parties are such whores to the financial industry and insurance industry as a whole. The repubs have a grip on the financial industry, the democrats the insurance industry and they work part and parcel to screw the american consumer.

I am not being a bigot when I state that they prey on lower income african americans and minorities full well knowing they probably don't have the financial education to run the numbers and understand that balloon loans are a scam and that 19% auto loans are nearly criminal. This is where we can immediately help those less fortunate.

Consider this alaintex regarding capping the rates. CitiCorp made record profits the last few years yet have cut staff dramatically. You know why? They've shipped jobs overseas. Legally it will be very tough to stop the exportation of jobs and in reality in some cases it's not a bad thing LONG TERM. But you can cut these companies off at the knees and do it in a way that benefits all of us in a real way in terms of capping rates. The credit card companies make little off of you, but they aren't losing money either. The average Visa/MC discount rate is 2%, Amex 3%...with the volume of credit card use now that's hundreds of billions of dollars for stamping a piece of plastic and floating money for 30 days.

I meant to mention earlier, what most banks do now in terms of lending would have landed them in jail years ago. The standards by which they lend money now is a joke. Can you imagine lending money to buy a house with 0% down?

I'm a liberal on many issues like this where I think the government does have a legitimat role. Much of the housing market is backed by the fed or federal organizations - they have every right to set standards. They lend money to scum like Citicards at low overnight rates and then they turn around and stick it to us. These are the greatest of corporate handouts in america, along with protected insurance markets like Massachusetts where consumers cannot go to Geico and save 40% but must legally buy overpriced, underserviced local insurance.

Tort reform is another area the government should get involved in. Edwards did not help Kerry IMO because people are sick of attorneys like him suing for billions for fake illnesses. He cost the entire insurance industry billions for voodo science that has now been entirely disproven.

[RaleighNCDUer]

277. How much will you like it when your job goes south?

Much of the debt was piled up when people had to turn to their cards to make ends meet. They weren't just making purchases, but were paying basic bills. People who were very responsible about debt suddenly had no income, and had the cards on hand. What would you do, particularly when, for twenty years, you've never had a problem getting a job and keeping that money coming in? With no expectation that it would be more than a couple months, you put your life on the cards.

Most bankruptcies are not the result of casual overspending, but of long term illness, unemployment, or divorce.

It could happen to anyone.

It did to me.

[barb162]

232. I didn't write that first paragraph, that was someone else

Also, I wouldn't write that as I actually know some co-workers who have been physically shaking when they talk about their high debt, it obviously bother them like crazy, and then they buy 10 pairs of shoes the next weekend. And the weekend after, well, they just gotta have one of those large screen TVs. There's a lot of uncontrolled spenders out there. I notice this in vehicles too. There are moderately priced cars out there, like 13,000 bucks new for a low end Toyota or Honda. But a lot of the complainers with high debt who complain are driving $40,000 SUVs. Gotta have a Lexus.

I also knew a person who dropped her medical insurance in exchange for car (payments) and cable TV. She had excellent access to public transportation and I told her not to do the car, drop the cable, keep the medical insurance. About three months later she developed cancer and died 5 years later.

[alaintex]

240. I hear ya…

I’ve got relatives that don’t make a lot of money, but they live within their means.

“It’s not how much you make that counts, it’s how much you spend!”

And also as you point out, it’s all about choices.

[techconomy]

244. same

Barb I had a friend age 63 that just passed away. He worked for Raytheon for 40 years and was summarily dumped/forced out at age 60. At the time he was paying $100 a month for insurance and getting a decent pension. Problem was they didn't cap the health insurance and three years later he was paying $800 a month, just slightly less than what he was taking home. He declared bankruptcy in 2003, and died six months later. Here's a guy that worked his entire life and died with nothing.

When they talk of universal health care, it can and will never happen. What we'd be much better served doing is opening federally run hospitals in every state that have federal employees/doctors. Not the most convenient solution, but IMO an effective alternative.

Spending is out of control, but as I said to Alaintex it's being fueled by massive fraud in the financial industry. These people buying 40k cars, or leasing them on 25,000 a year salaries? There is no financial lending model that supports that other than shear greed and fraud driven models. What I'm saying is there should be laws that require strict standards for lending.

It's incredibly clear that our current lending model is providing credit to people that have no business having it. Our current personal debt is growing exponentially. Original financial models involved ability to pay balances, now it's ability to pay the minimum payment and become a long term cash cow for the lendor.

[barb162]

278. this is correct; lots of people getting loans or credit who shouldn't

have it. Some people are walking around with 20 credit cards and using them all. And when the limits are maxed they get more cards. A lot of people have lost self-discipline or never had it. On the other hand there are many situations like your friend from Raytheon. This is happening too often in our society.

The fed hospitals would be a finger in the dike compared to the present problem of number of uninsured in our society but it is better than what we have now for the uninsured...nothing. I suspect those hospitals would be filled the second they opened the door. Did you know that even vets are not allowed in the VA system unless they were current users? This happened two years ago.

[Zorra]

7. Maybe we should start looking into an alternative economy right away....

DU Economic Activism Forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=255

[Just Me]

77. Would it help those with strong minds, hearts and voices,...

,...unchosen destinies and empty pockets?

Broke in dollars but not broken in spirit,...how would such a discussion serve the likes of those who are akin to "Just Me"? If we fail to solidify the links among our common causes,...the cycle will just,...continue.

BAH!

There are so many levels of impact and influence. I get frustrated when money and the material impede upon rather than serve the best of human worth,...which always seems to be the case,...even though it never HAS to be the result.

[DuaneBidoux]

13. Most Incredible Stat: We are borrowing 80% of all available global money

[Strelnikov_]

57. That Stat Is Truely A Mind Blower. Lotsa Warning Lights Blinking

with regard to the economy.

[alaintex]

156. Most Incredible Stat: By incredible do you mean “Not Credible”?

"We are borrowing 80% of all available global money"

What does this mean?
Is there a fixed amount of money on the earth?
In what way are we borrowing it? By using resources, or obtaining more wealth than others?
Please give some perspective.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

16. This could very well destroy the Republican Party and our 2008....

nominee, Wesley Kaane Clark will become FDR II!!!

:bounce:

The Rethugs would be out for another Generation, maybe more!

[Laelth]

22. I can't be excited about the prospect of a ...

... global depression. I had hoped the country would have chosen a responsible leader before the situation got too bad. It may already be too late.

-Laelth

[barb162]

31. if people were to vote their economic interest, which they clearly

have shown they have not. Moral values, moral values, moral values....

[99Pancakes]

18. Well, the good thing about

Dumb-Dumb being Prez is that he gets to take all the blame. Maybe the Re-publican'ts in US will realize their folly. Of course, the Repukes probably will find a way to spin it and blame it all on the Dems.

[Zorra]

205. The idiots will say it is Clinton's fault while they are dying from

starvation. They will never hold the evil War pig accountable for any of his America destroying policies.

[Mark D]

19. That actually scares me...

How can we continue to operate like this??? Borrowing I mean?

What can I do to prepare for what appears to be an unavoidable economic melt-down? Buy gold? Move to some sort of a sustainable community?

[grasswire]

45. look at what's happening in the gold market

The smart money is moving to gold. That's what I saw Steve Forbes advise the other day. Gold bars, not gold stocks.

I always figured that if I had gold bars, I would dip them in chocolate to disguise them. Ha!

[shrike]

55. And where does one buy gold, pray tell?

Gold bars, as you say, not gold stocks. My broker will steer me only to stocks.

[grasswire]

60. someone on yesterday's thread....

...advised against gold stocks, saying they will not hold value through a crash. <shrug> I just did a google search for "Where can I buy gold" and found some sites that have been in business for decades. Lots of info there. Some people buy their precious metals in coins. From yesterday's thread we learned that the government in the past and could again require U.S. coins to be turned in for face value. So an expensive gold dollar would only be worth $1. Foreign coins would not be so required.

[Art_from_Ark]

108. Turning in gold coins for face value

Actually, there was an exemption made to the 1933 decree for "rare and unusual" gold coins, which included just about everything that was available at the time. That is why there are so many US gold coins extant today and why Americans were still allowed to buy and sell gold coins in the days and years after the decree was issued.

What was expressly prohibited was gold in bullion form (bars)-- and, from 1961-1974, foreign gold coins that were dated after 1959! (On a side note: Countries issuing gold coins during that time got around that date requirement by restriking previously-issued coins-- That is why there are so many 1915 Austrial coronas, 1945 Mexican 2 pesos, 1878 Spanish 10 pesetas, and 1908-14 French 20 francs in pristine condition! Meanwhile, Canada was a big loser, because they struck a special $20 commemorative gold coin for their 1967 centennial celebration, and couldn't sell it legally to collectors in the US!)

[Art_from_Ark]

218. Some more comments

US gold coins, with a very famous exception, have ALWAYS been legal to own, at least up to a certain quantity of the same date and mintmark. And for the past 20 years or so, Uncle Sam has been an active player in not only the bullion coin-selling business, but also in the gold commemorative-selling business, selling both types of coins at far higher mark-ups than what is stated as the face value. There's no way the government would try to confiscate these coins at face value, because they would get their ass sued off in court, and LOSE. And the Mint would lose a very big money-maker, the gold 5-dollar commemorative, which is usually sold at around twice its bullion value.

What is a far more possible action is the prohibition of some types of foreign coins, such as the ones I mentioned above, and the Krugerrands, which were barred from importation into the US for a few years. While only those dates of the embargo were actually illegal to own (that is, all previous dates were grandfathered), there was confusion among customs agents, some of who thought that the interdiction applied to ALL Krugerrands, and even all South African gold coins. This essentially killed the market for Krugerrands in the US, even after the embargo was lifted.

[alaintex]

160. Gold clarification...

Not a complaint, just a numismatic comment. I don’t think the US ever had gold dollars, just silver dollars, real silver. The gold colored dollars today have no gold in them. US gold coins were minted in $10 (eagle) and $20 (double eagle) denominations.

Also, I think you can get US gold or silver commemorative coins (not legal tender) if you didn’t want to go foreign.

[Art_from_Ark]

212. Actually, the US Mint did issue gold dollars, from 1849 to 1889

The Mint at one time or another also made 2 1/2-dollar, 3-dollar, 4-dollar, and 5-dollar gold coins, in addition to the tens and twenties. There were even a few 50-dollar gold coins minted to commemorate the Panama-Pacific Exposition of 1915.

One more thing-- ALL coins issued by the US Mint that have a stated face value ARE legal tender-- But who in their right mind would spend a commemorative gold coin for 5 dollars, knowing that it had around $100 worth of gold in it?

[manxkat]

165. good place to buy gold

I recently purchased some precious metals from this place (link below) and they have good prices and everything was delivered just as stated. I was a little concerned, ok VERY concerned, because what if the packages arrived with bricks in them? So, not being very willing to trust without checking first, I looked up their report with the Better Business Bureau and also called their bank. Anyone can do the same -- they publish all this info on their site.

There's a lot of helpful info on the site too, especially about which coins and types to buy for investments vs. survival (the idea being that you'd want small denominations of gold and silver to use to pay for things, if the dollar went bust). There's also a great page on their site called "Myths, Misunderstandings, and Outright Lies" which talks about (among other things) how some sellers of gold will try to sell you collectable coins that supposedly won't get confiscated by the government. It's worth spending time getting an education, and these people have good advice (in my opinion).

Here's the link -- I'm not affiliated with the company, I'm just a customer.

http://cmi-gold-silver.com/

[janetle]

78. Pan for Gold

Man, I'm going to dig out my Dad's gold pan and move back to Montana and start panning. This is frightening.

[genieroze]

106. here

http://www.monex.com/

[jdonaldball]

207. Any coin dealer, if you want small quantities

[T Bone]

136. It may be that there is no such thing as Security

is what it seems to basically boil down to.
Sorry to say.

[denverbill]

23. Bummer, but at least gays can't get married.

I mean, that's the main thing right?

What a country.

[99Pancakes]

36. This is good, DenverBill

I am a teacher who wanted to vote Bush out because of (among other things) No Child Left Behind (NCLB), In a nutshell, if you work in an inner city school, you are going down in 5 years and turning "charter". You could very well lose your job then.

So, I spoke with my Christian colleagues about their vote. Many of these teachers in our red county vote Repug, EVEN WHEN A VOTE FOR BUSH MEANT THEY WERE VOTING THEMSELVES OUT OF A JOB. They voted on the "no gay marriage" and "no abortion" issues. They said they felt morally obligated to vote this way EVEN THOUGH THEY VOTED AGAINST THEIR VERY MEANS OF SUBSISTENCE.

Moral of this story: They may be in the unemployment line soon, but damn it, those gays sure as hell won't be married!!

Can anyone get any DUMBER?

[blondeatlast]

73. One wouldn't think so, BUT...

There's a congressional race in 2 years.

At the rate we're going, if any sort of democracy exists in this nation, I'm willing to bet that the American electorate, can, and WILL, get even dumber.

[99Pancakes]

80. There are no English words

to describe how dumb-founded and utterly perplexed I am by my Christain colleagues' choice to vote Shrub in again. I and the Union leader continue to shake our heads in insane lack of understanding as we watch our colleagues praise Jesus all the way to the unemployment office.

[yorkiemommie1]

i'm not surprised

...even though my husband is not religious, he is a total, unwavering, undoubting GOP/* supporter.

when i told him i was voting in my own economic interest, he pooh-poohed me, huffing, "Well! If you HAVE to do THAT!!!...."

i'd like to retire in a few years w/ 'some' social security...i'm at the leading edge of the baby boom. he doesn't seem to 'get' that i may not have that... thinks i'm being a cassandra.

these folks are willing to give up anything, even their own families' futures, for the GOP agenda.

i'll die in the saddle.

[99Pancakes]

92. It's a surreal kind of denial n/t

nt

[Viking12]

103. The thing about Cassandra is that she WAS prophetic

but Apollo caused the gift that he gave Cassandra to be twisted, making everyone who heard her true and accurate foretellings of future events believe that they were instead hearing lies.

[barb162]

74. perfect example of people voting against their economic interest

[hippiegranny]

75. I shudder to realize...

your colleagues are the ones who will be educating my grandchildren.

[paula777]

93. And they were 'teachers'?

Fuck them and their ignorant votes. They shouldn't be teaching anyway. Allthough, who will teach our hill-billies but other hill-billies?!

[alaintex]

166. No Child Left Behind...

I’m not a teacher and don’t really know much about NCLB. What do you mean when you say “if you work in an inner city school, you are going down in 5 years”? Certainly it has historically been harder to teach in inner city schools, but is the NCLB making it harder for teachers or students?

You also mentioned turning "charter", what is that? Could you really lose your job then?

[yardwork]

182. Welcome to DU! I'm not a teacher, but I'll try to answer your questions

NCLB requires schools to constantly keep improving their End of Grade (EOG) test scores. It's an unrealistic requirement that many educators believe will make most schools "failing schools" within five years.

Charter schools are a new concept, allowed in some states. Private groups, run by boards of directors, can apply for a grant from the state board of education to start a charter school. They get state money per pupil enrolled, which they use to pay teachers and run the schools. In NC, charter schools don't get any money for facilities, so this is a constant struggle.

Charter schools represent a huge range of types of schools. One of my kids attends a charter school that is excellent. Unfortunately, there are many very poorly run charter schools as well. Some of them are downright scams.

[99Pancakes]

264. Good additions

An added point: most Charters score lower on the End of Year tests than public schools. Amazing, huh? Given how Charters are touted as the great solution, it surprises us in Ed. However, yes, there are some really good charters. A small percentage, but they may prove to be good models for us here in my district, since 1 school is already in year 5 of PI (program improvement). My school is currently in year 2. It is fully expected that our whole (inner city) district will be in year 5 in the next few years. Stay tuned........

[99Pancakes]

259. NCLB: an explanation

NCLB is making it harder for BOTH students and teachers.

For students: it forces them all to be on the same page in the same book at the same time no matter their ability/disbility or language barrier (40% of my school speaks Spanish/ are considered English Language Learners). Medical/mental health problems can put a child behind. Homelessness is a problem the inner city deals with (within our district, the # is 300!). Parents who are incarcerated and the child ends up in the foster care system is an issue. On and on. One needs flexibility and creativity to deal with the complex set of issues our children face. With NCLB, it is a straight-jacket of standardized learning/tests. It is quite harmful for kids (in most teachers' opinions) because a teacher cannot tailor the curriculum to suit the individual child's needs.

For teachers in the inner city:
The challenges are far greater and the hurdles much higher. In a middle to upper class neighborhood, for example, 90% or more have computers. In our district of 43 schools, only about 10% have computers. We end up with kids who don't even have books at home! So, I'm staying they don't start at the same point that kids from "economically stable" homes do. So, it is far harder to get them "caught up". My school has 40% who don't speak English! Yet, they have to take the English exam! (there have been recent changes to the law to allow a little more time, but hardly enough). It is well know that inner cities typically will have schools that "go down" first. In fact, they ARE going into Program Improvement first. After 5 years in PI (program improvement) you have to choose from <in short list> (1) state take over, (2) going charter, (3) massive re-organization

I don't want to make this too long, so I'll answer you final question. Can teachers lose their jobs. Absolutely! If they choose to go Charter, they could also lose some of their pay--in other words, no more "steps up the pay scale", unless they choose to go Union at that school, and the Union successfully protects the current pay. Teachers can, as another choice, not choose to go "charter", but the Superintendent can move ALL of the teachers to other schools. It is complcated, but that is the short and simple answer. In short, if schools are privatized the way the Repuke Party wants, teachers can then be fired (at will hire).

Hope that helps.

[99Pancakes]

261. P.S.--sorry abut typos in other post

I was going fast.

[maxrandb]

217. Yes! You Heard it Here First. "Porn Addiction" will be the Gay Marriage

of 2006. Someone needs to get ahead of this. I know because these folks are so predictable. First Congressional Hearings, then Rush and Insanity, have already teased this issue....look for Fallwell and Robertson to jump onboard.

If you see a John Stosel (sp) special on it, you'll know it will be the next state-wide ammendment. Mark my words

[Protagoras]

26. Remember that when Stocks crash

Those "in the know" often make out like bandits because unlike the rest of us who have to sell to keep eating, they can use their reserves of paper money to consolidate real ownership. When we sell, they BUY.

Gutting the US economy will only destroy those who are dependent upon it. Making the working class MORE dependent on the few who own it all.

Watch, we'll crash and millions will live in ghettos, but the richest few will immediately become even richer...on a scale we can't even imagine...yet.

[mhr]

29. That Is Exactly What Happened In The 1930s

History is repeating itself.

[techconomy]

112. check your history books

This is entirely different and shares almost no financial or social similarities to the roaring 20's.

The crash of 2000 resembled the crash post 20's. What we have here now is unprecedented as the use of credit was a scam from the moment it boomed in the 80's.

People need to realize this isn't a party issue, it's a class issue. The people with the money on both sides are raping the american public. Think about it, we put kids in debt 100k before they turn 21 by going through college. From that point on their fates are sealed.

Don't be fooled into thinking this is a party issue, legislators on both sides stuck it to all of us the last 8 years.

[mhr]

198. Agreed It Is A Class Issue - But That Does Not Change The Outcome

Concentration of wealth, just like the 30s, will further disenfranchise the middle class.

[techconomy]

245. middle class

I guess by definition I'm middle class. With the crushing weight of college loans that I'm just finishing paying off in the next few years, a mortgage to buy a very modest home at best, two vehicles we use to commute to work, health insurance, life insurance and providing for our new baby we are chopping away at our savings each month. We have never been unemployed and make a fair living.

I believe middle clss is a misnomer, we are the "consumer class"...that is consuming goods provided by the people holding the money. College is the biggest scam in modern america, saddling students with tens if not a hundred thousand bucks in debt upon leaving school. Even ten years ago leaving with 40k in debt, there is just no way you can ever get ahead. I'd love to see our government extend education to K-16 at some point in the near future.

Consider that right now rates are low on debt because the economy is stagnant. As soon as it grows I make more money, but then I pay more in revolving debt and in financed goods. The only ones that are able to capitalize on upticks in the economy are those lucky few with no debt. 30 years ago that way 70% of the population, now it's about 10%. The rest of us are behind the eight ball - probably for life.

I don't know where I fall on the age scale compared to most posters here, I'm 32 and have just gone through the trenches so to speak. I know absolutely nobody that is debt free among my college educated friends. Every one of us, including the ones that had rich parents walked away with some type of debt. One or two that walked away with little or none ended up screwing themselves shortly after because they had no credit experience and spent to much. The problem is, once you leave college with debt it's just about impossible to ever get out, especially having 2 recessions since graduating.

When I read this site I see so many good ideas being lost in the signal to noise of hate. Hate is a cage that keeps you from expanding your mind. There are real issues we as citizens need to force to the forefront that the rich pigs like Kerry and Bush have no clue about.

[dawgman]

330. you are exactly right. This is not a Dem Vs. Repug issue

this is a rich vs. poor issue. This is warfare being waged by the top 5-10% against the rest of us.

Remember, the working class has NOTHING in common with the employing class.

The employing class realizes this but the working class refuses to acknowledge the differences between the castes.

[99Pancakes]

38. Having that many poor people all in one place

could be mighty dangerous for the 1% who are left standing. I see massive revolt, bloody shoot-outs (pissed off Repug gun slingers)and huge riots. What would anyone have to lose? And do you think an American army/national guard would fight against it's own people to squelch the uprising? (Hmmmmm...sounds like the problem in Iraq.)

[barb162]

68. there weren't many riots during the Great Depression other than for a vets

march which was put down very violently.

[99Pancakes]

70. Do you really believe it would be the same?

Do you really think that the nation would roll over and play dead?

[barb162]

72. absolutely; probably less a chance today of riots than in the 1930s

I think fundies, eg, are a greater % of the population now than in the 30s. They will just pray more and ask Jesus to help them. In a capitalist society there is also that psychological "thing" that you blame yourself if you have economic problems. Look at the 400,000 or so software types who have lost their jobs to India and elsewhere. The US government could EASILY have implemented laws to stop this, same as with manufacturing losses over the last 20 plus years. They have no problem bailing Chrysler did they? The government bails corporations constantly through special tax breaks too. But the average worker doesn't see it that way and self blames. Shouldda done better on that interview, shouldda done a better resume,blah, blah, blah.

[genieroze]

109. You have to ask this?

Look who is president. They played dead the minute they voted for Boosh.

[99Pancakes]

139. Good point.

Half the electorate is already brain dead.

However, I like the image of enraged gun-totin' Repoops storming the steps of the capitol. So much for Shrubby's evangelical base.

[barb162]

167. well then I would really laugh even if I were starving. Watching them

lose their damn money while they have been stealing from everyone else for years...

[Astrochimp]

85. No- there were MANY labor riots, they just didnt make "history" N/T

[tsuki]

89. It wasn't the same. People then did not think

they were entitled to a lifestyle foster by the tube.

[RaleighNCDUer]

234. They weren't worried about lifestyle. They were worried about

feeding their families. The current discussion is if our unemployment is 5.5% or really 9%. At the height of the depression it was something like 30%. Nationwide. That means for minorities it was more like 80%. The communists and socialists were never stronger than during the depression, and the only thing that saved us from a proletariat revolution was the combination of strong unions, FDRs progressive policies, and the advent of WW2.

Today the unions are decimated, we're already at war and we have no FDR.

These guys have no idea what they've set in motion.

[T Bone]

137. What about all the SIT DOWN strikes

Workers going on sit down without even the union's authorization in many places. Just 'shuttin' it down' themselves. Sit in place and shut the fucker down. A LOT of that happened in the thirties and you have to read a history book by Howard Zinn to find out about it too.

[barb162]

170. I don't recall reading this but I am glad to hear it happened. But

then it brings up the point that back then there were more powerful unions and a far greater % of workers were in unions back then. It seems hardly anyone is in a union now other than teachers, airline people, etc. Today, there's not that unity, that taking sides, which is so important to do a strike, a sit down, etc. Back then by and large there were two sides, labor and management. Now there is management and individual workers, so many of whom are afraid their jobs will be taken and shipped to (name the country).

I always thought unions were good for workers, for safety issues, wage increases, benefits, etc. Workers had to fight management tooth and nail for these things.

[Indiana_Dem]

196. I have a relative who is 96 and tells me about these things.

He told me about the Ludlow Massacres in Colorado. It was a Rockefeller coal mining company I think. The workers wanted to form a union and went on strike. The company called in scabs and the workers revolted on them. Management called in the military and the military then set fire to their houses which were "dugouts" (tents partially in the ground) and some of their families burned inside them.

Then he told me about the Pullman strikes in Chicago. He said all the workers had to live in this section of town where the company owned all their houses and rented to the workers at really high prices and the company also owned the store they shopped at and they had to buy from the store and the company charged outrageous prices and put it as a deduction on their paychecks to where the workers hardly had anything left after the deductions. People rose up and police were called in and people died.

Then he tells me about the Ford strikes in Detroit where people were killed. The workers had to work at least 12 hours a day seven days a week.

Also told me about U.S. Steel where the workers were closed up in the plant and people were killed there, too.

He also told me about the farmer's of North and South Dakota and how they formed the Populist party because the railroads were charging outrageous prices to transport their food and there was no other way to transport it.

He's told me lots of things I never learned in history at school.

Amazing.

[mark414]

153. throughout history

even when the door is opened, the oppressed rarely rise to the occasion (of revolt)

unfortunately

[Zorra]

42. I am saving my money so that I can buy cheap property from freepers

after the crash.

They will need some quick cash desperately to buy some canned tuna to go with those bland, nutritionless republican values that they will be eating.

[rfranklin]

65. Why not stock up on canned tuna?

You might be able to buy an apartment building for a case of tuna.

[Debbie13]

33. For some reason I think this is what the Bush Admin wants

To bring us down for some global reason. Perhaps I'm just getting depressed and thinking the worst of them.

[grasswire]

40. yes...

...at some point we have to at least consider the possibility that this is deliberate so that Bushco can buy up American assets for pennies. They've done it in South America. Ruin an economy, buy up the water and the utilities and the assets. They're doing it in Iraq. Ruin the country, get the oil, make a fortune through military industrial cohorts.

We will be servants of the industrialists and corporatists.

[cassiepriam]

96. If this is true...

they are brilliant, but of course evil.
Destroy everyone and everything so they
can have it all for the taking....

[leftchick]

71. you are right....

and right to be depressed about it. This is exactly what they want and what was predicted to happen here well over 3 years ago. Sickening to behold the new 'gilded society' plan isn't it?

[Karenina]

105. And if you want some "fries" with that

Check out Carlyle Group's real estate connexions. :SIGH:

[grasswire]

132. do tell...

...that's one facet of Carlyle I know nothing about.

[Ready4Change]

87. World economy has strong ties to the US economy.

This is beginning to change, but even now, if the US economy crashes, the rest of the worlds economies are most likely to follow.

The mindset at play here is "Do I have the biggest slice of pie?" They don't care how big the pie is, so long as they get most of it.

As put in the article which started this thread, the message given to the public is that everything is fine. The word being given to the power brokers is "everythings gonna go down the tubes." Likely, those at the highest echelons were informed years ago, and are already prepared. Those finding out now, behind closed doors, are more likely being told so that their actions will TRIGGER events, not so that they can avoid them.

The rest of us, in front page newspaper land, continue blithly on.

[Debbie13]

221. I totally believe what you're saying

Let us go on about our way

[cheezus]

35. as I highly doubt I'll have any less money then than now

good!

[Debbie13]

44. WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS IMPEACH GWB

Install Kerry as president.

Hold an Iraq election the next day, pull out of Iraq immediately or get the entire United Nations to help with the rebuilding and the policing.

Then get this government back on a balanced budget.

My two cents.

[jeanarrett]

54. That is exactly what we need to

do, but it won't be easy. We MUST call upon our Congress men and women to introduce articles of impeachment. It's the only way it will happen. You can sign a petition at:

www.impeachcentral.com

or here:

www.petitiononline.com/ddc12/petition

[tedzbear]

56. Interest rates WILL go up if inflation goes up. Greenspan can't stop it.

"But they argue there may be an alternative scenario to Roach's. Greenspan might instead deliberately allow the dollar to slump and inflation to rise, whittling away at the value of today's consumer debts in real terms.
Inflation of 7 percent a year halves ``real'' values in a decade.
It may be the only way out of the trap."

This definitely will NOT happen. The holders of long term debt will NOT buy 10 year bonds at 4% when inflation is running at 7%. Long term rates will have to go up in response to inflation. Capitalism doesn't work any other way.

[KbQ]

59. Making money from armaggedon

The collapse of America will be good for the environment, good for human rights, good for society. And, for all you losing money on your houses, you can make money just like the Stephen Roach's of the world in a down market . . . there's no more growth left!

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?guid=%7B5608A9C7-A82C-427E-9EB5-EB3121C3E19B%7D&sitei

[djack23]

62. Your are absolutely right

[swag]

82. For what it's worth, Roach has been this impolite in his weekly

missives for quite some time (see for yourself):

http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/digests.html

Sometimes you have had to read between the lines, but he has been preaching the "global imbalances" gospel for a few years now.

I think last week some time, his meme finally became "successful" (in the Susan Blackmore sense): on Thursday the Financial Times devoted columns to the "severe global imbalances" idea, and the very next day Greenspan gave his now famous speech.

[consciousobjector]

83. "The day the dollar dies...

things are gonna get better" - Peter Tosh (song:The day the dollar dies)

It's time for an "underground economy". Time to pay down your debt as quickly as possible and start working out barter arrangements with local small businesses!

Find people to join with to purchase land together and start "off the grid" communities.

[BeyondGeography]

84. Here's the statistic to remember

From the article:

<To finance its current account deficit with the rest of the world, he said, America has to import $2.6 billion in cash. Every working day.

That is an amazing 80 percent of the entire world's net savings.>

So we soak up up eight out of every ten cents the planet manages to save on a daily basis, and the value of our currency is plummeting. If that isn't a clear sign that soaring interest rates are inevitable, I don't know what is.

[techconomy]

117. It's a debate

Actually though, if Greenspan is consumer oriented as many believe, he will just let inflation rise. Every 1% the rate of inflation increases, it increases the effective amount we all owe to creditors. 70's like inflation if properly controlled for only a few years could significantly decrease the "real" amount most owe.

What is really being missed here is the massive amount of debt we ALL have, republicans, democrats, libetarians, blacks, whites, mexicans etc etc. It's 12k per person, up 50% since Clinton took office. Income has grown at a steady rate, but nowhere near that rate. It's inevitable that the straw breaks the camels back at some point. The events of September 2001 would have if it was not for the SBA making hundreds of millions available to small businesses. If they had not intervened IMO we would have had a total economic collapse in the fall of 2001. Most of the loans given out were fixed APR and were used to pay employees during the lean times.

[Mandate My Ass]

130. I love blame the victim mentality

Cheerleading for the rip off artists, blaming fiscal rape of the treasurey on 9/11, apologetics of corporate malfeasance and deliberate concentration of wealth to the top 1% of the American population is quite an interesting viewpoint. One I've heard somewhere before....:eyes:

[techconomy]

191. Were you forced to buy the goods?

Can I ask why you believe corporate fraud is only the work of one President? You do realize this has gone on since we've had corporations. The consumer always gets the shaft.

I don't understand where you get deliberate concentration of wealth? If it wasn't for that top 1% our system would be in shambles. They may not pay the share we want, but they pay far more than the rest of the population. This number may not be exact, but something like 75% of all taxes are paid by the top 1/4 of taxpayers.

The fiscal rape of the treasury also began over a decade ago. Bill Clinton is credited with a surplus in his last two years, but everyone fails to mention he grew the total federal debt - the totality of our public debt by close to 30% during his Presidency, the most of any non-wartime President in the 20th century.

Our entire way of life at the state, federal and personal level is based on debt.

Their is a clear dichotomy in America. A quick look at the exit polls from the battleground states show those with some college, a college degree or doctorate broke for Bush while those with only a high school education or no education broke for Kerry in a big way. Likewise most if not all voters making less than 15,000 a year reported they were Kerry voters, while the majority of voters making 50,000 a year or more broke for Bush - but it's not nearly as clear cut at the upper levels as it is at the lower levels. Contrary to the claims that the top 1% is somehow all republicans, the break is pretty close to 50-50.

If you want to dispute these numbers great, I can provide you exact references.

[Mandate My Ass]

210. I have no debt except my mortgage

and those with the highest IQs, the highest educational levels, the highest incomes (excluding the investor class) in the highest taxpaying states voted for Kerry.

When Bush crashes this economy either through stupidity, or as I believe, to deliberately create a second depression, the investor class will be fine but there are going to be a lot of homeless families and alot of hunger. That's too harsh a consequence for having acquired debt, IMHO.

Bush has relaxed a lot of corporate regulations. Does Enron ring a bell for you?

[techconomy]

222. Most of the enron fraud occured during the Clinton presidency

I was directly effected by the crash within the energy industry. The lack of regulation during the 90's was the direct cause. These companies were chasing away the creditors by buying one another out from 98 to 2000, before the market correction took the wind out of their sails. Bush I believe would not have done anything differently than Clinton, but review the actual timeline and you'll see the fraud occured and began in the mid 90's. MCI Worldcom was lying to the public about fibre usage (reporting it near 95% when it was really near 5%) and billions were spent by DSL providers to install more cable that was never, ever going to be used. Flashcom and a thousand others spent billions, found out the hardway their was excess capacity, and then went bankrupt. MCI Worldcom is largely been ignored, the fraud they dropped on the public is largely why the economy is still stagnant. Again, Bush probably would have done nothing different, but this occured in the Clinton admin. I blame the private sector financial pigs far more than the government in either case, it wouldn't have taken much effort to find out the 95% capacity was an impossibility but everyone was making so much money they didn't care.


Your statements about highest IQ's voting for Kerry is bogus, yet another misconception. I put little stock in exit polls, people can easily lie about education and income, but here are the numbers from this most recent election:

Ohio 30% of all John Kerry votes came from people making less than 30k a year. 25% of Kerry votes have no, or just a high school education. In the upper end, 26% of Bush supports were college graduates or had postgraduate experience while 25% of Kerry supporters met that criteria. In the middle with some college and college Bush carried a majority of voters. In many states, a majority of states, anyone above the level of a high school education broke for Bush. In almost every case, people making more than 15k a year broke for Bush. In Florida for instance, Bush carried some college, college grads, and postgrads cleanly. The income level is pretty solid in most states that were in play in this election, in some the self proclaimed liberal elite with postgrad education did carry for Kerry. Each election cycle that advantage is shrinking though.

The only objection I have to people stating this election was won for Bush by the redneck bible thumpers is that the ACLU and NYTimes would go bezerk if a right wing newspaper like the Journal stated in an equally correct fashion that low income people and african americans are all that is keeping these elections even close. Both stereotypes are ludicrous, we are all americans, but that hasn't stopped the Times and other papers from being bigoted and biased.

[Mandate My Ass]

226. You're presenting opinion as fact

You have backed up none of your claims and your posts sound exactly like Rush Limbaugh, IOW like something that comes from a thoroughly discredited, drug-addled "entertainer" who doesn't debate, just keeps spewing the same lies to those whose lack of critical thinking skills causes them to parrot his biased nonsense.

And the biggest giveaway of all:

It Was Clinton's Fault!!!

Of the 18 states whose population has an average IQ of 100 or above, 17 of them were carried by Kerry. This was published in The Economist and the testing was done by Raven's APT and The Test Center, one of the UK's leading distributors of psychometric testing.

[techconomy]

246. useless

And did they go an interview the voters in those states? Do we decide elections in only those 18 states or is that what you are proposing.

The IQ argument is the biggest and most racist of all hate spiels. If someone ran a study showing without low IQ'd low income people Kerry would have lost by 10% you'd be screaming racism.

Actually I said explicitly that it was neither Bush or Clintons fault and that neither would have done anything until it hit the fan. You are so quick to stereotype anyone that doesn't agree with your hatefilled ideas. You see nothing but hate, and in a bigotted meanspirited way belittle those that disagree. All this with a moniker "mandate my ass". I presume then you aren't one of those with an IQ over 100?

I believe Clinton was a very good President. He gets no public credit from either side on welfare reform - because the democrats are afraid it would turn minorities against them if they hark on it, and republicans because they dare not give Clinton credit for anything. Clinton cut the welfare rolls by more than 50% during his second term, and amazing accomplishment.

I'm in a state carried by Kerry - easily. I read the article you cited, and it's superficial at best. No actual testing was done in the states, they used someone elses data. It proves nothing, as you have no way of knowing which people voted for which candidate. It may make you sleep better at night, but take a look at the actual data. Several of those States carried by Kerry were won only in the urban inner city votes, Philly, Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit - hardly bastions of higher intelligence (no offense).

Rush Limbaugh and people like him on both sides are screwing the entire county with their idiocy.

Oh, and as you are so sure of yourself, please tell the readers here how Enron was Bushies fault, and MCI Worldcom. Do you have a timeline of the events and when the occured? The first fraudulent numbers were reported in 1997 at Enron, and 1998 at MCI.

[Mandate My Ass]

251. Hate-filled, Huh?

It's so easy to spot a troll, bait him, and make him spew Rush Limbaugh-ese. Liberals are full of hate ... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah :nopity:

If you don't like my moniker or my attitude, that's because you're the one with obvious insecurity issues.

It may make you sleep better at night, but take a look at the actual data. Several of those States carried by Kerry were won only in the urban inner city votes, Philly, Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit - hardly bastions of higher intelligence (no offense).

And you call me a racist?????

BTW, Ivy League degree here, 3.5 GPA. Buh bye, your trolling has been exposed and so has you racism. :dunce:

[techconomy]

257. sure it has

I never said liberals were full of hate, even with that 3.5 gpa you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. I said YOU were filled with hate, I never used the word liberal nor did I apply it to the vast majority of posters here that are intelligent enough to not use profanities in their names.

Ingorant people use ignorant profane language. It has nothing to do with whether you are a liberal or conservative. There are countless studies that show the use of profane language is the hallmark of lesser intelligence. This site has been featured in some prominent places that are catching the eye of a wider market. When new people come here they see "mandate my ass" and immediately think "crackpot".

And once again, your fetish with Rush Limbaugh is disconcerting.

As predicted previously those that think like you immediately jump on a comment bracketed with (no offense) when it is absolutely no less true than your attempts to label the other 30+ states in america as somehow less intelligent based on a study conducted in a foreign country. Show me the IQ's for those cities listed and if I'm wrong about the IQ levels compared to the rest of the states you claimed as somehow more intelligent, I'll concede I was wrong (but I wasn't).

You paint with a broad brush and a sharp tongue but you might consider spending more time reading what is written before responding to it.

[techconomy]

267. MUST READ PBS ARTICLE

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/economy/july-dec00/holiday.html

From 12/00 that discusses what we speak of here. Note two important facts, retail sales were horrendous (nov-dec) as we fought over chads, and worse the sales that did occur were at discounts never before seen. It set the stage for a harder landing than would have normally occured.

Second, 10% increase in personal debt the last year of Clinton's presidency, that is with a MASSIVE surplus at the federal level. In fact debt went up 25% during the years with a surplus. I am not blaming Clinton, I'm just no blaming Bushie either. Surplus or deficit it hasn't mattered, we increase our personal debt like drunken sailors regardless of the President or budget situation.

[RaleighNCDUer]

235. References from the Heritage Foundation, no doubt.

Get real.

[techconomy]

249. Why is everyone that doesn't share your opinion a ditto head?

The ignorance and arrogance of continually portraying anyone with slightly different opinions as a Limbaugh or Heritage hack is such idiocy.

It seems the underlying course of action here is "if we can't debate him belittle him" or better yet dismiss him or her as a Limbaugh cronie. Here's a hint, what we've done the last 12 years has been a miserable failure and when many of the true progressives in the party sat back and road the bus driven by the hard lefties we got smoked across the country in 2004.

When do you realize the close minded ideas are losing ideas? More democrats in 2004 turned and voted for a republican in 2004 than in any modern election. That is the sole reason Kerry lost Ohio and Florida, more democrats voted for Bush than republicans that voted for Kerry.

If you have a debate to make that furthers the discussion great, but check the hate at the door.

[RaleighNCDUer]

272. And more people voted against * than against any other

president in history.

If you talk about percentages of voters, the Reagan democrats far outnumber the dems who turned coat and voted for *.

Are you including, maybe, the so-called mystery votes of FL? The dem switchover was well within historic parameters. Or perhaps you are counting those extra votes, you know, the votes counted that outnumbered the votes cast, as being dems.

To quote Babs, 'I'm through with you'.

[techconomy]

280. what numbers DO you believe?

How about PA...are we in agreement that isn't in doubt but went for Kerry?

Bushie got 15% democrat votes versus Kerry getting 11% of republican votes. That's why the State was so close and precisely why the initial exit polls were way off in PA.

In Minnesota Bush got 1% more democrat votes than Kerry got republican.

For most of the free world there weren't many mystery votes. Specifically which mystery votes are you referring to? The apparent decade long conspiracy in the northern counties that nobody noticed until November 3rd,2004 in which democrats always vote republican, or the supposed missing votes as judged by out of state statisticians that clash wildly with pre-election polls and actual election exit polls?

[PA Democrat]

308. Please follow your own advice

You referred to Kerry as a "pig" and members of this board as ignorant and arrogant. Check your attitude at the door.

[Mandate My Ass]

309. He contradicts himself and exposes himself over and over

He postulated (without citation or backup stats) that the most educated in the US voted for Bush.

When I provided a cite that supplied a nonpartisan scientific study that the states whose population had the highest IQs voted overwhelmingly for Kerry he said that was "superficial" and from a "foreign" source, alleging the evidence was not valid. Once again with nothing but his own opinion to support the claim.

Then he goes on to say the inner city populations of Philly, Chicago and Detroit (non intellectual) which are predominantly minority populated, are the only ones who voted for Kerry (cuz dem dark folk don' know no betta), while calling me a racist.

educated = white = voted for bush

non-educated = welfare cheatin' black folk = voted for Kerry. :eyes:

[TJAllen]

323. Just The Facts

Just The Facts:

The study you cited was not superficial it was actually a ruse and the Economist ran a retraction in the next issue.

"Last week we published a list that purported to show the IQs of states voting for George Bush and Al Gore in 2000. Alas, we were the victin of a hoax: no such data exists."

They also included two models, one showing the % of citizens with a bachelors degree or above by state and one showing state math scores. In the former out of the top 12 7 were red states, 5 blue states. In the latter 7 were red states, 4 blue states. To my surprise as well more red state citizens have degrees than blue states.

There is no formal or informal data that compares IQ. It's never existed.

[PA Democrat]

147. Interest rates WILL go up whether Greenspan wants them to or not

If we continue to look to foreigners to finance our debt, they are going to demand a better rate of return.

Hey what's with your remark about debt being up 50% since Clinton took office? Check the chart at the link I posted below, and you will find that after astronomical increases in national debt per capita under Regan and Bush I, it actually DECLINED during Clinton's presidency. And now, with George W Bush we're back to the same runaway deficits that are typical of the "fiscally conservative" Republicans. So please don't bring Clinton's name into this.

http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/percap92.htm

And your figure of $12,000 per person is more like $25,000+ per person.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

[RaleighNCDUer]

271. Which is precisely why the * administration has done all it can

to gut the SBA. Because it saved our asses.

Right.

[techconomy]

282. do you even know the name of the SBA programs?

Just wondering NCevilDuer, do you even know the names of the programs or the amounts appropriated after Sept. 01?

[grendelkhan]

86. This makes me glad

My wife and I have been on a plan to pay off as many debts as possible and not take on anything new for the last two years. We're about to close on our first house, and we spent less than we can afford just to make sure we didn't end up being house poor.

Who knew that trying to keep a low income to debt ratio would cushion us for the upcoming economic armageddon.

[mstrsplinter326]

88. Incredable. The most important issue right now, without doubt. n/t

[Arioch]

91. I paid off my

only debt other than my house two weeks ago; my car.

Boy did that feel good!

I carry zero credit card debt, save about %40 of our income ( married ) and bought our house four years ago for 1/2 of what we can afford.

Bush must hate me.
:)

[against all enemies]

101. I think I hate you, nope I hate myself.

[MaineDem]

114. We're about to pay off our mortgage

We have no car loans but I do have credit card debt. With the house paid off I can get that paid down in no time.

Feels good.

[Indiana_Dem]

197. Me. too! I only have $8000 left to go!

I have almost as much in student loans and credit card debt, though, but I've whittled it in half over the past 2 years from what it was! My goal this next year is to get another half paid down and my mortgage debt will be coming down, too. I'm getting closer! <keeping fingers crossed>

Thankfully, I have relatives who won't let us lose the house if anything drastic happens between now and then.

[techconomy]

115. You are 10000% right

This is the single most important issue to the future of us, our parents and our kids.

Personal bankruptcy IMO is the answer for many. Buy your house, lock in your rate, make sure you have transportation for a few years and then go bankrupt. If you have 10, 15, 20K in debt you will never repay it, screw the banks and go bankrupt.

Donald Trump and other fat cats stick me, you and everyone else with their ill gotten gains every few years. That 1 billion he just wrote down? We all pay for that in higher rates.

I laugh when I hear they want to reform (the banks) bankruptcy laws. All they want to do is make it tougher for us to go bankrupt. If 100,000 americans owing 10k went bankrupt, that equals what Trump alone just did this week.

Wake up people and realize they are ALL in on making you cattle.

[barb162]

186. oh that Trump thing pisses me off; he still sits in that multimillion

dollar penthouse and he's screwing the banks (who then raise rates on us). Then people watch him on TV and admire him...it is as if they can't see he is screwing everyone. Just like voters who voted for shrub...they can't make the connection he is screwing them.

[techconomy]

192. issues

barb162 don't forget it isn't just banks. Anyone owed money, it could be a local contractor gets screwed and can't feed his kids.

[damntexdem]

90. The Bushistas want an armageddon, of any type they can get.

Sort of an economic end-times scenario. I wonder who will be the Anti-Capitalist?

[demgrrrll]

99. Someone one on yesterday's thread wrote that he thinks we have 5-6

months to get it together. Does anyone else have any time frame information? I do have some things I can do in the next two to three months to pay off all of my debt but I would rather have 5 or 6 months. Any information would be greatly appreciated and you do not have to link just tell me where to google. Thanks.

[techconomy]

118. bogus information

Most of this information is complete conjecture. We've eased far back from the brink like we were in 2000 and 2001. As of last month the number of late credit accounts had contracted again, as had the number of bankruptcies. IMHO you're not going to see a crash unless the economy tanks.

The sword is sharp at both ends. If we cut back our spending, seeing as 70% of our GDP is related to you and I buying coffee and everything else each day, we're screwed. If we don't cut back we are screwed. Somehow, we have to cut the value of our debt, or rapidly increase our income.

I don't know the answer, but I know higher taxes are not the answer. Someone mentioned tax breaks for people paying debt might be good...

[mhr]

158. Those That Reap The Greatest Reward From Society Have The

Greatest obligation to pay more because their benefit from our labor is the greatest.

Higher taxes on the ultra-wealthy is the way to go.

Too stupid to be pResident does not understand this.

[techconomy]

258. how is taxing the rich fair?

I'm far from rich, if you want to see my checking account I can prove it :)

Seriously though, why should rich people pay that much more? They already pay the majority of taxes in the US? Close the loopholes first...that alone will make up a huge chunk. You raise taxes and they'll all end up overseas or cheating more.

[mhr]

311. Taxing The Rich Is The Only Fair Thing To Do

They Live in society.

Their wealth comes from society.

Without society, their wealth would not be possible.

Ultimately, their wealth is not possible without the sweat of others.

Those that reap the greatest benefit from society have the responsibility to repay for their success.

Without us their success would not exist.

[barb162]

173. "Somehow, we have to cut the value of our debt, or rapidly

increase our income." Since we simply cannot do this, the economy will in fact tank.

When Uncle Al finally starts opening his pug mouth and sounding negative...time to worry. Why didn't that damn jerk open his mouth with his story of woe a week before the election? The conditions the last week of October are no different than last week when he finally said something correct (versus his monumental covering up for Bush the last 3 years)

[cosmicdot]

98. "Welcome to the new Bush** administration ...

... which understands that it had better be sweet to the important folks of the Asia-Pacific, but delights in getting its own back on the French and Germans."

http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20041122-124008-3733r

~snip~
"In short, the Bush administration is making the Europeans pay for America's bad fiscal policies. That is the punishment being inflicted on the French and Germans for trying to undermine Bush over Iraq. And this punishment is all the sweeter because it spares those friendly countries like Britain and the "New Europe" of Poland and eastern Europe who are not members of the euro currency, and who have been much more supportive over Iraq." ~snip~


It's not difficult to picture this:
"delights" in retribution, retaliation, revenge against the Germans and French as the ... "Dollar Hits Another New Low Against Euro"
http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=1&aid=D86HNMI00_story
... with the goal of making European imports more expensive ... with the goal of hurting German and French businesses ... while, the consuming US citizen is likely the ultimate victim ... who cares what Old (now Euro) Europe or we think? is retribution against 'allies' part of the Bush economic policy? how reckless is that?? how secure does that make one feel???

I don't trust that they have any understanding of "important folks of the Asia-Pacific" ... how can one place trust in anything these people do and say when the Treasury Secretary tells his counterparts at the G-20 meeting that "the United States is dealing with its deficit" ???

the bottom-line is ... just as in corporate mismanagement ... the good ol'boys only care about enriching themselves, and care nothing of the common good ...

I can imagine **him pursing his lips now ...mimicking, sarcastically, the huddled masses pleading ... "please help us" ...

[fedsron2us]

104. The dollars strength is hurting all European economies

not just the French and Germans. Some of the currencies of the so called new Europe are actually at all time highs in relation to not only the dollar but also the Euro

The Polish zloty firmed 0.5 per cent to a 20-month high of 4.2098 zlotys to the euro, with the Czech koruna within a whisker of a near- two-year high at Kcs31.03 to the euro and the Slovak koruna within a fraction of its all-time high against the euro of Kcs39.213.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/20e58452-3cf7-11d9-bb7b-00000e2511c8.html

Even the perenially unreliable British pound is trading at uncomfortably statospheric values. As usual the US is playing the role of school bully to perfection, beating up on the weakest kids in the play ground but grovelling when the big boys from Asia turn up.

[techconomy]

111. So much misinformation/uninformed opinion

It's unfortunate that critical topics such as this one get submerged by the "everything is Bushies" fault crowd. The consumer debt rate grew far faster during President Clinton stewardship than it did during Bush 1. The numbers below come directly from the BOG of the Federal Reserve, these numbers are accurate. The % change is the difference year to year. Year over year for Clintons 4 years was 5.5 to 8.3 or 2.8% over 4 years. For Bush the rate has been about 1.75% including preliminary 2004 projections. In short, consumers slowed their borrowing pace under Bush, but either way any assumption that this is Bush or Clintons fault is absolutely idiotic and uninformed. The problem with America started when credit card companies started pimping products to college students in the 80's thereby making a generation of cattle. We are essentially a nation of indentured servants to thsoe with money. This cuts across all party lines, all demographic lines and in many cases is much worse for middle income families on both sides of the aisle. This is because low income people cannot generally get credit and although that may seem like a bad thing, in the end they are much less vulnerable than those up to their eyes in debt.

Consider that in 2004 the average credit card debt is 12,000 per PERSON. We can all sit here and blame the government but as a nation we have absolutely no self control. Fat cats on both sides are making a fortune off of all of us. Advanta is currently charging 30.33% interest as their normal rate. It should never have been made legal to do so.

I am a huge Joe Lieberman supporter, but he and Senator Dodd share much of the blame for what is to come. It was Dodd and Liebermann that sponsored the bill that removed the 14 day grace period on payments (which also protected your APR) and capped the late fee and other fee amounts. As of today, because this bill became law you can be charged any late fee 1 second after the due date passes. Because ALL of our legislators have failed we have no national policy that caps rates. Right now banks run to certain states that allow them to legally charge up to 40% APR when the Prime was at record lows.

I believe we make it out of this. Please realize there are doomsayers every few years, and so far they've been proven wrong since 1992. We are at a breaking point, and IMO 9-11 did a number on the economy and forced many small businesses into borrowing huge sums, and many consumers refinancing to survive. If another attack ever occured, I believe we would see a major cascade of corporate and personal bankruptcies.

What I find disturbing is serial bankruptees like Trump that consistently stick the little guy for billions ever 7 years.

1994 $4,550.4
1995 4,875.6 6.7%
1996 5,208.1 6.4%
1997 5,512.8 5.5%
1998 5,949.1 7.6%
1999 6,439.3 7.6%
2000 7,014.1 8.2%
2001 7,648.4 8.3%
2002 8,388.7 8.8%
2003 9,281.4 9.6%

[NashVegas]

152. I Don't Think Anyone Blames Bush for Our Personal Debts

but none are too happy about the runaway spending in government.

What I do put on Bush's doorstep are the current giveaways, and this plan to further prop up Wall St with a privatized Social Security.

[techconomy]

224. I'd like to hear pro cons on Socail Security

In their usual impotent fashion I saw almost no real coverage of this issue in the media. What are the real pros and cons, I have not studied the issue much.


Keep in mind crisco the spending within government hasn't been as bad as portrayed, outside of the Homeland Security chunk, real increase has been 1%. Keep in mind though....what lazy reporter will actually spend the time to see what was once "outside" homeland is now "inside" in terms of budget and therefore the actual increase may be higher. It may be minimal, it could be deflating the increase by 3 or 4 points....

We all agree we had no choice on homeland security. For the first time in 3 decades we've lost no airplanes, have had no citizens killed on cruise ships or on vacation, had no embassies attacked or domestic attacks in almost 3 years. That's the longest we've gone since I believe 1970 or so. Most happily it also seems that we are working with the international community to foil attacks. The British report they've stopped several massive attacks, my guess is down the road 10 or 20 years we will all be reading books about the attacks stopped in the US we never heard about.

[NashVegas]

247. A Con

first, though, this:

outside of the Homeland Security chunk, real increase has been 1%.

1% of .. what's the annual budget? Kind of adds up.

As for a con, here you go:

Not everyone has the aptitude to study financial markets. Not everyone - for a variety of reasons from disposition to logic faculties - has the ability to turn everything they touch into gold.

Turning the fund over to private accountsm greatly benefits those who can play it well. No problem with that. (That's the biggest 'pro.')

But everyone else is going to be ripe for plucking. Even some who think they're schooled will be easily taken, haven't we seen that already?

Imagine the new sets of laws and standards this will spawn as more people *demand* the government guarantees a return on this risk-taking in the private market.

Starts to look somewhat like the church v state argument, doesn't it? Can't do that, the Randies would have a field day. Looks like the ultimate goal would be to dismantle SS altogether.

It's bad enough that our current stockholding class acts like 18th century French aristocrats. So we should turn the entire population into such?

[techconomy]

250. very good

Yep, great point I hadn't thought of. Just look at the late 90's and what supposedly smart people we know managed to do to their retirements.

Consider too with the 1%, departments like the coast guard are now under the banner of homeland security...so when the repubs say 1% outside of homeland....that doesn't include the fact that the billions the coast guard got isn't being counted. I don't know what the real number is and I doubt we'll get it given the state of modern journalism.

[mhr]

159. People Took On Debt When They Thought They Could Afford To Pay

Bush is insuring that no one can pay.

Unemployed 53 months here.
BSEE
MBA
Commercial Pilot
Honorably discharged Naval Officer
15+ years of professional work experience.
Refugee from telecom and aviation.
Over 2,500 resumes out the door - so far nada on opportunities.

I definitely blame Bush for lousy management of the economy.

[alaintex]

209. Good post,

Do you have a stat on the population of the U.S. who are debt free, or just have an outstanding home or car loan?

[techconomy]

223. Roughly

Alaintex, I can't dig it up right this moment but I remember reading recently it is down to something like 20 or 25%. I also remember, roughly, that the number of people in debt has grown by 50% in the last decade but much worse, the people with debt have gone from 3 or 4k in debt to 15k.

That is JUST credit cards I'm speaking of, will try to find more on car loans etc. IMO though, the most dangerous and volatitle are the credit cards.

[ElementaryPenguin]

121. Holy shit!! Chimperor to bring us WWIII and a depression!!

But thank God he's our leader!!!

[intheflow]

127. You obviously don't understand economics.

You start WWIII to create the militariy-industrial jobs. Isn't that how Roosevelt got us out of the depression?

/this was a sarcastic reply. in reality, i agree with your analysis of the situation and am scared sh*tless. this aricle, combined with iraq and terrorism may portend more than economic armageddon.

[intheflow]

124. I am so not surprised. n/t

[wookie294]

129. Wall Street Journal Slams Bush for Devaluing the Dollar

"The larger worry is that the Bush Treasury, and perhaps Mr. Bush himself, seem to have fallen for the notion that a country can devalue its way to prosperity," said the Wall Street Journal in a Nov. 23 editorial that criticizes President Bush for allowing the dollar to fall against the world's currencies.

The Journal's editorial said, "Nothing will more quickly sap Mr. Bush's hard-won 'political capital,' to borrow his phrase, than a sharp weakening of global demand for American economic capital. He can forget about Social Security reform if there's a stock-market plunge."

"Stocks and bonds both tanked on Friday, as the dollar fell again and oil and gold jumped, the latter to its highest level ($449 an ounce yesterday) since 1987. Investors may recall that was the last time we had a dollar crisis, as well as a little stock-market episode known as Black Monday. The markets rallied yesterday, as the dollar firmed and oil dropped. But we hope the point has been driven home that investors don't bet on countries that debase their currencies.

"All the more so when the nation's leading policy makers seem blase, not to say clueless, about the matter. Treasury Secretary John Snow has been roaming the world saying that he favors a "strong dollar" policy even as he lobbies for a weaker dollar against Asian currencies. Investors who observe what Mr. Snow does tend to discount what he says."

http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB110117528808581589,00.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

[54anickel]

141. HA! That last paragraph you snipped is priceless! And welcome

to DU Wookie294. Alas, I don't have a subscription to read the rest of the article.

If I put on my :tinfoilhat: while reading this, I can see just how powerful the "invisible hand" of Wall Street is from this quote:

"But we hope the point has been driven home that investors don't bet on countries that debase their currencies."

Bwahahaha!!! He Shrubby, you've been put on notice by the street! Let Friday be a warning to you - meanwhile, they were kind enough to hold the markets flat for the day! HA!!!

In the SMW thread today we heard the pundits cite how the day before and after Thanksgiving are ALWAYS up days. I'm thinking that gives the Shrubster until Monday to have Snow come up with a new song and dance routine to appease the Marketeers!

[American Tragedy]

133. What exactly would constitute economic armaggedon?

Are we talking post-WWI Germany or what?

[54anickel]

145. I can't help but post this one more time. Come on and sing along!

American Bye

A long, long time ago…

I can still remember

How the dollar used to make me smile.

And I knew if I had my chance

I’d sell the currency of France

And, maybe, I’d be happy for awhile.



But all our spending made me shiver

With every T-bill we’d deliver.

Bad news on the doorstep;

I couldn’t take one more step.



I can’t remember if I cried

When I heard our politicians lied

But something touched me deep inside

The day the dollar died.



So bye-bye, dollar assets good-bye

Sold my Chevy at the levee

‘cause my pension ran dry.

Them good old boys were drinkin’ sake to try

Singin’ this’ll be the day that it died

This’ll be the day that it died.



Did you write Whitehouse.gov

Or have you a Yen to fall in love

If Japan will tell you so?

Now, do you believe in oil ‘n coal

Can China fill our import hole

And can we teach them how to grow real slow?



For the rest of the lyrics -
http://www.prudentbear.com/archive_comm_article.asp?category=Guest+Commentary&content_idx=37375

[villagechild]

151. buy european/asian T-bills

" . . . avoid directly holding currency, and instead hold your foreign money in some form of tangible asset, such as stocks or bonds. There are many mutual funds that allow you to invest in stocks or bonds overseas, including VEURX (low expense ratio Europe stock index), BEGBX (Europe bond fund), EUROX (Eastern Europe stock fund, high expenses, good recent returns), and many others.

The risk of this approach depends on the severity of the downturn. If first world economies show their recent historical resilience (for example, the US after the .com bubble deflating) then overseas stocks might not lose all of their value, and your losses are likely offset by the falling dollar.

Holding assets also help the downside risk of the dollar somehow recovering quickly." http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20041122/032767.html

[Divine Discontent]

162. so when do we........................

SWITCH TO THE EURO, HERE IN THE US?




GOTTA LOVE THAT BUSH WITH HIS ZIPPER DOWN, FUNNY ENOUGH, THE EMPEROR WILL TRULY HAVE HIS CLOTHES FALL RIGHT OFF HIM. JERK.

[villagechild]

181. currency

I think we need to print and circulate our own "alternative" money. I know there were a couple of pilot programs (maybe California), not sure how they fared though. I think Mendocino County, CA had a monetary system in place: barter/token system.

[zulchzulu]

163. Nah...Wow, the sand is cooler the furthur you dig your head in it

Ah...I can't even move my head now. It's so deep in the sand.

Wait.... ah...um....I'm getting thirsty...and....the....the...sand is starting to turn to......CONCRETE!!!!

[ally_sc]

168. I have heard some experts suggesting that you diversify...

BUY GOLD...

[Octafish]

169. Chimpageddon.

The Little Turd from Crawford wants the USA to go bankrupt. His banker pals will foreclose on the whole middle class at once. Then his richie rich toadmasters will buy what's out there, pennies on the dollar.

Presto-chango! Abracadabra! It's the New Feudalism, Haitian style where 1-percent end up owning 99 percent.

One more thing: the psychotic moron isn't going to have any New Deal to help us out.

[Mandate My Ass]

177. Silverado S&L scandal on a national scale

Heck, a global scale. Little turd boy beat out his daddy by stealing a second term and beat out his l'il bro by stealing trillions more dollars than Neil did and getting away with it.

The kool-aid-drinking puketards will go to their paupers' graves saying it was all Clinton's fault.

[foo_bar]

194. that about sums it up

Not a bad time to invest in Brasilian real estate.

[alfredo]

174. Should I dump my Treasury bonds?

If yes, where should I put it.

[Guaranteed]

178. Yup, every 80 years. Just like clockwork.

Anyone ever read "Generations?"

[Indiana_Dem]

201. No but someone suggested "The Fourth Turning".

Must be the same idea.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

184. Roach is the King of Gloom and Doom - nothing new

according to my financial wizard. Not sure personally

[54anickel]

199. No offense, but is your financial wizard of the Kuldow variety?...n/t

[eowyn_of_rohan]

216. Well, he thinks Roach is ultra bear and Kudlow is ultra bull

sort of.

[techconomy]

225. He's brilliant but like many brilliant people...

He is perpetually negative. You WANT a negative financial advisor IMO...because they are the most cautious. Risk takers lose money, risk averse make money slowly but steadily.

Since I think about 1986 I've been reading books, and articles from the financial wizards indicating a coming disaster. This first started in the early 90's when debt blossomed. It's never happened, and probably never will.

IF we have a good holiday season at the stores, our economy will absolutely roar forward in 2005...mark my words :)

What everybody forgets and what is only now being study is the effect that the election scandal of 2000 had on the holiday shopping season that year. We were all captivated by the chads and didn't shop like we would normally. 2/3's of the profit in the retail sector comes in the last 1/4, and 70% of our GDP is consumer purchases. When we didn't buy, we put almost as big a squash on the economy as the events of that previous September.

[RaleighNCDUer]

239. Are you seriously saying that as a nation, we collectively

looked up from our TVs on Dec 23rd and said, 'Whoops! I completely forgot to go shopping for Xmas!'

I don't think I've ever heard anything more absurd.

[techconomy]

265. absurd but 100% accurate

The National Retail Federation believed they would see 6-7% growth over the previous year. Almost every think tank and banker publicly supported 6% as the expected number.

What happened? Despite the cheery late predictions (ALL predictions were very favorable) it was a bust. People stayed home, and sales barely budged for the first time in a decade. Worse, the sales that did occur were done at deep discounts cutting into margins of many retailers.

This information is available on the internet at various sites. The effects of the election controversy are one of the only logical explanation as sales began a sharp uptick after January.

[TNOE]

241. Think you're dreaming here

I don't think there is anyway possible it is going to be a good Holiday season. You've got about 50% of the country really pissed off that Bush* was once again installed in the White House - and most of these people will be bunkering down - as I said I'm going to do.

News reports nightly - how donations are so far down already this year and by this time last year they were well stocked - numerous reports on how there are so many more "poor" to help than ever before - numerous reports of how middle class Americans are standing in food lines with their children in cities where the manufacturing plant left for overseas and the whole town worked at it - day after day.

I can see in my own neighborhood - TONS of for sale signs - like I have never seen before. Properties are not moving. Its coming and its here and its not going to just "pick up" with a "jobless" economy. Not going to happen.

[natrat]

252. fwiw-note cnn headline"jump in luxury home sales"

uber wealthy tax cuts left this group w/ some serious cash-what effect that has on the larger picture i dont know

[techconomy]

266. data

The data doesn't support what you say unfortunately. Partial November results show sales up this month. Last month they dropped by a tiny .1% which is very typical prior to an election BUT average price was up 8.8% over the previous year. Also October sales were up more than 2 points over the previous year.
http://www.realtor.org/Research.nsf/files/REL0410K.pdf/$FILE/REL0410K.pdf

Here is another good link to this discussion. This is from 12/00, here you will clearly see information on holiday sales, and also consumer debt which increased 10% in Clintons last year.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/economy/july-dec00/holiday.html

[natrat]

291. richey rich opening wallet -*ush tax cuts?

http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/19/real_estate/mil_life/luxuryhomesales/index.htm

[techconomy]

297. Credit

I think more than anything the fact that you can now buy a boat with zero down is allowing people that cannot afford boats to buy them. It's a disgrace and in a few years we are all going to pay for it.

Even the low end boats like Carolina Skiff are selling like hot cakes. You can get a skiff for less than a night at a ballgame.

I saw a tv commercial the other night from a national lender promoting "cash out" on 0 down loans!

[shrike]

256. Frodo, is that you?

But seriously, I don't expect a major crash. But I don't believe the economy will 'Roar' either.

The rest of the world needs our pocketbooks, since we are the world's largest market. But they will turn the screws to make us suffer a little -- or a lot, and it's happening already.

[Mandate My Ass]

260. LOL

Our newbie has some interesting opinions. LOL. :crazy:

[Name removed]

268. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phgnome]

187. Disappointed about the space issue

I'm a little bit annoyed with the Bush bashing here. Not that I'm a supporter of either Republican or Democrats....but there's a really serious problem at hand an all this is destructive effort that destroys a country.

I don't care whose fault it was that the debt built up to these levels -- hell, most of the people that are criticizing don't even know the difference between a national debt and a deficit!!!

I don't give a $hit whose fault it was -- HOW are we going to fix the debt problem, where we're making interest payments on our good years and not even enough to pay our interest in the bad years.

Frankly, I was REALLY disappointed in Senator Kerry's lack of creativity and vision in how he handled the space budget issue.

What some don't seem to understand is that the debt is at the root of the problem -- the war, the coming wave of stagflation, the souring international relations, blah blah blah.

It has no choice but to be at war right now in order to get out of its current situation. What the country decides to do with its future is how it will spend the money that is bringing the country into deeper debt.

The budget has no choice but to go further into debt.

The collatoral of the country has pretty much been spread too thin. It has no choice but to raise interest rates and to have other countries lend more money.

HOW it chooses to spend that money determines whether or not it remains an economic pillar in the global economy. This is the part where I was sorely disappointed in how Kerry responded.

[techconomy]

228. bravo

Outstanding post and I likewise am disturbed by the blame game and calls for boycotting the economy. That destroys the country and the jackass politicians then win.

I think people are missing it is an US vs THEM...but it isn't repubs vs democrats, it's US, the normal americans black, white, mexican et al vs the big money, big government that wants to make us cattle. Both parties are equally corrupt and disgusting and both parties have sponsored and passed key pieces of legislation that are currently strangling all of us.

I have to find the exact bill that Lieberman and Dodd passed, since the moment it went into law credit card debt has doubled.

[marmadogg]

230. Pull your head out!

The GOP put us in this situation.

If the Democrats did this the outcry would be deafening!

Get over it. Republicans have royally fucked us all!

[Mandate My Ass]

231. Well said

Welcome to DU, marmadogg. You are going to love it here and besides saying hello, I want to add :yourock:

[techconomy]

253. How did the republicans cause this?

Can you answer that question without the rhetoric of "Enron blah blah blah?"

Specifically how and when did this happen? I'm very curious as to your answer but expect it to be littered with profanity.

[gulfcoastliberal]

334. Repugs caused this by passing massive tax-cuts

which, as you know, chokes revenue. I'm sure you like trickle-down, so in this case the trickel-down is slashing social programs needed by the poorest in society.

The repugs have clearly stated their desire to "starve the beast" and bankrupt the treasury via massive redistribution of wealth to the top % in the guise of "tax cuts" and "cutting waste & fraud".

Meanwhile you have a GOP crafted Omnibus spendign bill that enacts said social cuts while simultaneously spending millions for a presidential yacht, million for a Norweigian-American club, money for the rock & roll hall of fame, etc, etc. And their shameless attempt to insert a provision allowing a committee chair to have an agent pull any Americans tax records. I am appalled the dems let them get away with the anti-choice rider they attached to the bill. Shame on them!

As for more shameful tax cuts remember this recent gem?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4117683

The repugs are bent on bankrupting the country and eliminating the middle class.

[barb162]

233. um, I don't think economics is Kerry's strong point and it certainly

is not a strong point for Bush.

If I had my way every candidate for President would be forced to pass a macroeconomics 101 test or couldn't stay in the primaries. Bush clearly is destroying this economy with his drunken sailor tax cuts, increased debt ceilings, etc.

[techconomy]

254. the debt ceilings

The debt ceiling was increased every single month Clinton was in office. I'm not saying it's Clintons fault, I'm just saying his course of action did not differ from what Bushie is doing.

If you study the numbers you'll see the federal debt grew faster under Clinton than under Bush EVEN including the surpluses the last few months of his presidency.

Why are you against tax cuts? This is something I don't understand, even as a lowly middle classer I had more money in my pocket that I used to prepare for starting my family last spring. Why is that a bad thing?

[RaleighNCDUer]

273. Where do you get this stuff?

Or do you make it up as you go along?

The debt ceiling is a limit set by congress, beyond which the debt is not allowed to expand.

'The debt ceiling was increased every single month Clinton was in office.'

You're saying that congress passed a new bill raising the debt ceiling every one of Clinton's 72 months in office?

Despite Congress being in the hands of the repukes, Clinton lowered the deficit, and lowered the overall debt. * reversed that progress, so that his pals could make more money servicing that debt.

As for the taxes, I don't know about your cuts but I got $300. In exchange my state taxes increased, the sales tax increased, and I didn't get a raise for 3 years running. I figure my tax cut cost me about $2100.

[barb162]

274. thanks for the post as I justed started writing an answer when I saw

yours...yours seems quite correct.

[techconomy]

281. Uhm, he did NOT lower the overall debt

You are absolutely, 100% wrong on the total federal debt under Bill Clinton. It actually increased over 20% during his two terms. You are confusing debt with deficit. Deficits are current fiscal year, debts are aggregate. The first column on this page lists the total federal debt, are you saying it decreased during the Clinton years?

http://www.concordcoalition.org/federal_budget/charts/federaldebt.htm
http://www.inmff.net/peidm/files/TheGoodies.pdf

Total federal debt as a percentage of GDP hit a 10 year low about a year ago whereas it hit the highest rate since the Korean war under Clinton.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opd.htm

If you are in a so-called blue state why are you complaining about state tax increases? If you think tax cuts are bad news, then you must want and like tax increases. So, both sales and state local taxes increasing should be something you are happy about it would follow.

I absolutely mistyped when I said month and I appreciate you pointing it out. I had initially meant year he was in office, but it was actually somewhere around 1/2 the years he was in office the debt ceiling was increased. On Clintons first day in office the debt limit was 4,145,000 he left with it at 5,950,000 hardly a slight increase. These numbers are freely available at the above sites.

[RaleighNCDUer]

287. You are cherry picking the information.

yes, the debt did rise. but the debt % of GDP under Clinton was falling, from '94 on. Once we pulled out of 41's recession. Now it is on the rise again.

As for my taxes, I'm in a red state and, I say again, the direct result of * giving me a $300 tax cut was a loss, in state taxes and loss of annual COL raises, of $2100. The same tax cut gave himself, IIRC, a $91,000 increase in income.

The rich, who are already not paying their fair share, are getting richer at our expense.

[techconomy]

289. I'm not rich

So I don't know how it feels. But I'm not sure where we draw the line or how we calculate they aren't paying their fair share? The problem is and has never been the amount of taxes you and I pay, it's the inability for over 50 years of our government to mitigate spending.

There isn't much to cherry pick out of those figures, they are what they are. I don't blame Bush 1 for the recession, nor do I blame Clinton for the 2000 recession. It happens..unfortunately. The rate of increase in the debt slowed under Bush 2 over Clinton's last few years.

In all honesty it is all smoke and mirrors and in the end we fight with each other while whoever is in office spends our lives away.

I guess I don't know if I made things better or worse by pointing out not only are we in a critical condition in terms of personal debt, but have just as quickly been getting to that point publicly.

[barb162]

276. I disagree with everything you are writing

To prove it I will have to wade through some 12 years of FED and Treasury data. But you are COMPLETELY wrong. Clinton had a strong dollar, was lowering the deficit and there was confidence in the US economy. Bush, IMHO, is destroying the economy and he is wasting money like crazy in Iraq.

By the way I am of the Paul Krugman school of economics; fiscal responsibility, don't cut taxes while fighting expensive wars, etc.

[techconomy]

283. I posted the links for you above

And don't confuse federal deficit with federal debt. We pay on the federal debt, not the deficit. All that matters is what we owe in the end, not what we spend month to month or year to year. Bill Clinton left office with a much higher total federal debt then he entered. I'm not blaming Clinton, I'm just pointing out this is absolutely nothing new. It's been increasing for decades.

Barb by the way, I appreciate you debating in a cordial fashion, it furthers the debate and in a non-offensive way. If I'm wrong about something I will freely admit it.

Have a safe and happy Thanksgiving.

[barb162]

286. "All that matters is what we owe in the end" No!

When other countries sense we can't pay what we owe, the house of cards falls down very quickly. Check first sentence of second paragraph below, specifically "...current-account deficit will cause foreign investors to demand higher yields on U.S. debt." There is a huge relationship between deficit and debt. Greenspan, Snow and Bush are talking out of all sides of the mouths. Funny how Uncle Al didn't figure there was ANY problem at all a week, a month or year or 2 years before the election.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a1yqp3_VuALk&refer=us

Below is from Bloomberg.com

Notes May Fall as Greenspan Says Foreign Demand Will Wane

Nov. 22 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. Treasuries may fall in Asia after Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said foreign demand for dollar-denominated securities will wane.

Benchmark 10-year notes on Nov. 19 fell the most in two weeks after Greenspan said the record current-account deficit will cause foreign investors to demand higher yields on U.S. debt. A survey by Ried, Thunberg & Co. shows investors reduced their holdings of Treasuries and debt issued by government-chartered companies such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to an eight-week low.

``Greenspan gave a somber warning for the ones in the bond market betting on endless sponsorship by foreign investors,'' said Daniel Shackelford, part of a team that manages $29 billion of fixed-income assets as senior portfolio manager at T. Rowe Price Group Inc. in Baltimore.
snip

[techconomy]

288. Greenspan

Barb that's because he's supposed to be seperated from politics. As soon as they politicize his position we are doomed.

Barb, what you aren't conceding is that part of "sense we can't pay what we owe" occurs when they look at the massive debt we owe and say "there is no way they can ever get out of this hole". We are at that point, we were at that point 6 years ago to be frank.

The best we can do is chop maybe 1/20th of it down in a great year, which means we need 20 GREAT years to get back to even. Take a look back, no matter who controlled the White House or Congress, the debt just kept getting bigger...and bigger and bigger. Why? Because just like personal debt there isn't enough of an increase in earnings/revenue each year to offset the interest.

Barb, I totally agree with that article above, I'm just suggesting the focus of blame does not good whatever to getting us out of this situation. Since most of us have been alive the hook we are on gets bigger at the federal level. When you take a look at the actual number, it is so massive now that we either have to gut all public services, or concede we are now a debtor nation.

[barb162]

290. the last 3 or so years I would say that Uncle Al is on some sort

of drugs. He droned on month after month in his appearances before Congress that everything was moving along appropriately at a steady pace. Total disconnect with reality. Now all of a sudden, 2 weeks AFTER the election he starts talking as if oh, hark, there's something wrong. Where was he been the last 3 years. The point being, AL, in the last 3 years became political and going along with the Bush plan despite all good economic sense.

"gut all public services"

How about gut his useless wars. How about get rid of the tax cuts to the rich and upper middle class? ETC. Those absurd tax cuts never generated the jobs per month that he said they would (320,000 per month...total joke!) You know supply side economics under Reagan NEVER worked and even Dave Stockman finally had the balls to admit it. So shrub basically resurrected this failed economic joke. This is the most incredibly irresponsible administration I have ever seen and what they are in effect doing is destroying the economy as we know it. Nothing less.

[Mandate My Ass]

293. barb, you're wasting your beautiful mind

the rehashed, debunked, dittohead crap that is being spewed on this thread would be funny if it weren't so pitiful.

[techconomy]

296. why do you feel the need?

I'm still waiting for some of the answers to your previous declarations.

What specifically was debunked? I saw two posters state Clinton lowered the federal debt that both admit now they were wrong. I wish rather than calling people names you add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

[Mandate My Ass]

298. I wasn't talking to you

:hi:

[techconomy]

299. Oh I see

I thought by insulting another poster you were "talking" to them.

My mistake, and for that I apologize to you Mandate My Ass. But keep in mind at no time did your name ever come up in this discussion either but you interjected the insult anyway.

[Mandate My Ass]

300. ROFL, this isn't even a challenge

Sort of like fish in a barrel, only they're shooting themselves. Carry on. :pals:

[TJAllen]

325. Just the Facts

Just the Facts

Is there another cite or were you using the retracted study the Economist stated was a ruse at their expense? Retraction is in quotes in another section here.

[barb162]

301. would you agree David Stockman was Reagan's economic guru?

do you agree he came up with supply side economics/trickle down economics. Do you agree he admitted in public they were a failure, that in fact his plan did not work? That in fact next to nothing trickled down to the other economic classes? Do you or not agree Bush revived this same failed plan already debunked by the author of the plan, Stockman? Do you agree Reagan ran up enormous deficits? What was debunked was supply side economics by the man who created the concept, Stockman. The disastrous tax cuts to the rich by Bush (which is supposed to stimulate the economy, yuck-yuck) is another name for Stockman's failed plan under Reagan.

[barb162]

305. see my post 303 or whatever it is, this person is in total denial

Denial on this level or lack of clear thinking or failure to admit reality results in refusal to acknowledge that Bush and his sidekicks are and have been screwing up the economy and the country may not be able to recover from it.

[Mandate My Ass]

306. Yes, I see that

Bush took a bad idea from Reagan and his daddy and made it worse by passing massive tax cuts during wartime. Anybody who can't see the handwriting on the wall has some serious cognitive dissonance going on. :toast:

I loved the part about Bush inheriting the Clinton recession in 2000. Bush gets no blame for the things he has done and Clinton gets blamed for things he hasn't.

[barb162]

307. The country was not in recession , either, in Clinton's last three or so

months. But yeah, it's THAT CLINTON RECESSION. I predict, from the experience of the last 4 abominable years of Bush, that whatever happens these next 4 yrs., that Bush and his gang of liars will still be blaming Clinton. ANd the country's economy will be sliding downward faster and faster.

PS:Mandate My Ass expresses my feelings perfectly.

[TJAllen]

322. Just Facts

Just Facts:

I'm an economist for a major brokerage. I'm also a lifelong democrat from the Windy City but facts are facts. The LEI had gone negative in January 2000 and stayed that way thru the year. By December it had been negative for six straight months which is the gauge by which all modern recessions are measured. All major indicators were negative from early summer 2000.

Link here: www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2000/dec00.cfm

The recession that followed in 2001 began in early 2000. Much the same this current stale period began 3 months ago and if Kerry had won it would not have been his recession if one developed. On the flip if recession develops now it is clearly Bush 00.

[techconomy]

294. tax cuts etc

Barb, I'm indifferent on tax cuts although I'll freely admit I bought stuff with mine that I wouldn't have normally. If I thought for a split second raising taxes to the rich would lower or maintain my taxes I'd be all for it, but all that will happen is they take more from the rich, then more from us.

Just look at those numbers, it didn't matter who was in the Whitehouse, it just kept mushrooming out of control. If it had just grown at the rate it did under the Clinton years through 2020 we are absolutely in dead trouble.

Economics was my sub-study in college, Finance was the major. I attended a very "blue" university, and even with that I refuse to blame anything that happens in our economy on any President. We build things we cannot afford in this country, the 15.5 billion dollar Big Dig in Beantown comes to mind. 15.5 billion for a seven mile ROAD that cost more than some states budget for a year - and leaks! Our federal and state construction projects become corporate welfare projects on the taxpayers dime, in all states blue and red.

I believe Bush1's economic policy tanked, Clinton's was a false economy as evidenced by the almost doubling of consumer debt that financed the growth the last few years, and Bush2 has provided a steadily stagnant economy. Throughout the last 15 years the amount our income has grown is generally growing at a slower rate than the money we owe. Work more, get more, owe more, welcome to the late 20th, early 21st century economy.


One of the things I'm seeing and hearing lately is the over dramatization of the current situation. I believe it is dire, but we've been here before several times and grown as a country. We had well known public figures proclaiming this election as the most important in US History. I'd like to think the voting done during WWI, WWII, just after the civil war were some of the more critical. Important yes, most important? In the 90's I heard people say Clinton was the "worst" President ever, now they say it about Bush. It seems like in our current society we place absolutely everything we go through as the most important of it's type, ever.

Contrary to your repeated statements, Greenspan stated very clearly his concerns for the deficit repeatedly the last two years. Here is one such comment at his testimony before the FRB in February 2004. This is one of his many sobering presentations the last few years that went largely unreported. To characterize his statements now in a light that makes him look incompetent, IMO is uninformed.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/testimony/2004/20040225/default.htm

" This favorable short-term outlook for the U.S. economy, however, is playing out against a backdrop of growing concern about the prospects for the federal budget. As you are well aware, after having run surpluses for a brief period around the turn of the decade, the federal budget has reverted to deficit. The unified deficit swelled to $375 billion in fiscal 2003 and appears to be continuing to widen in the current fiscal year. According to the latest projections from the Administration and the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), if current policies remain in place, the budget will stay in deficit for some time."

http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/testimony/2004/20040225/default.htm

[barb162]

303. This is your problem: denial

"I refuse to blame anything that happens in our economy on any President."

Who is responsible for the psychotic spending on Iraq? My cat?

Who came up with the tax cuts (increasing this gargantuan deficit?) Your cat?

The name is B-U-S-H, a president. Blame the president because the president is doing it.

[TJAllen]

324. Just the Facts

Just the Facts:

Review the economic data here at this link:

www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2000/jul00.cfm
www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2000/aug00.cfm
www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2000/sep00.cfm
www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2000/oct00.cfm
www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2000/nov00.cfm
www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2000/dec00.cfm
www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2001/jan01.cfm
www.globalindicators.org/US/LatestReleases/2001/feb01.cfm

The downturn was borderline some calling it a recession others not through about Feb 2001. Post 9/11 all that changed and the economy tanked.

[Rada]

315. False economy

>I believe Bush1's economic policy tanked, Clinton's was a false economy...

Yeah right, "false economy". All of my friends still support themselves with the savings they earned with that "false economy".

[cornfedyank]

193. is this true?

To finance its current account deficit with the rest of the world, he said, America has to import $2.6 billion in cash. Every working day.

That is an amazing 80 percent of the entire world's net savings.

http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=55356

[Massachusetts]

213. No need

to be frantic, from the comments on this post I can hear the hoofs and the stampede soon to follow.

Everyone knows the drill by know. Top ten
1.) Owe the man as little as possible.
2.) to help with #1, recycle and also ask yourself twice if you really "need that thing" (whatever it may be).
3.)Get on a better diet, veggies and such, you will see how much you can save on food, and its healthier for you.
4.) Exercise and follow #3.
5.) Do you really need that SUV? Dude, think about the great "clunker" you had when you were in your twenties.
6.)College and you or the Kids: A lot of Community Colleges offer 2 years (cheap), and then transfer to a State Univ. to complete the degree program.Fraction of the "normal way" to get a degree.
7.)Cash is King and Queen.
8.)Why go to the movies, when you can rent the video, watch it at home. Popcorn is cheaper, bathrooms cleaner and you may get lucky if you are with the old lady.
9.)Forget expensive vacations, I started Mountain hiking again (the White Mts. are awesome, cheap, healthy for you and lots of fun. You can rent equipment if you don't have it (EMS cheap).
10.) Lets all continue to watch out for one another. :hippie: :toast:

[KitSileya]

238. Very good advice, definitely.

I doubt anyone would be worse off if they start thinking about what they use their money for, and how they treat their body. For sure, a less is more attitude will better both your life, and the lives of those to come.

[techconomy]

255. words to live buy

Outstanding.

[nashville_brook]

321. right on!

can i add...

have pot lucks instead of going out to restaurants -- it's way more fun and you can actaully build real relationships with people who share your beliefs

go to the library

strive for a one-income household. forget child-care and nannies -- you might be better off working for the economics of your house instead of the economics of your corporate prison.

[frustrated_lefty]

262. Big surprise. (n/t)

[VegasWolf]

263. Or, we can sit back and listen to Larry "the economy is roaring" Kudlow!

[ProfessorGAC]

270. Nobody Should Ever Listen To larry Kudlow!

About ANYTHING! Dumbest economist ever!
The Professor

[Beauchard]

269. Maybe it's time to get your money out NOW.

What worries me the most is the idea that Krugman has written about that the Neo's want to get rid of the New Deal, but they're convinced we'll never go along with it so the only way to get rid of it is to bankrupt the US, then turn around and say "sorry, we just can't afford it". I personally am not sure if that's what's happening, or if the Neo's really think they have some "master plan" they're following that'll make our economy take off.

Looking at the economic information I see, it honestly looks to me like we're perched on the edge of a knife, and could fall one way into a terrible recession, or the other into prosperity.

I'm not too confident prosperity's around the corner, as such, I'm getting my money the hell out of here. I don't have much, but I'm moving my retirement plans into foreign equities and bonds, and I'm taking 3/4 of my "cash" and putting it into Euros. I'd love nothing more than to not have to do this, but I've read WAY too much about inflation, stag-flation, recessions, and collapses.

I'm choosing Euros because I feel it's the most stable option, since it represents the largest free trade zone outside the US, and it has a solid record of prospering even when the US is not. And I'm going into global equities for similar reasons. Though there's a chance the rest of the world will be dragged down with us, I think they'll weather it.

Here's hoping I'm wrong and wasting my time moving money!

-Beauchard

[Strelnikov_]

275. Appears They Are Trying To Attain 'America Year Zero'

I mean, it worked so well in Iraq, didn't it.

[Beauchard]

284. Exactly

Gotta love that Year Zero project, gotta love Allawi saying "we are determined that this experiment will be a success".

OY!

-Beauchard

[swag]

302. I suspect bad journalism here

see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2748519

[joeunderdog]

313. Herald is now NY Post tabloid North. RW rag still.

[AntiFederalstSociety]

314. Don't go getting your undies in a bundle

Remember, there is still time to challenge the election if Bev and Ralph do their jobs. The sky is not falling yet. Even if * pulls it out there is still a good chance the eonomy will survive even his nitwit policies. The funny thing is if you go back to the seventies, people were saying the same things as are posted here.

Relax about the economy. America is still the economic powerhouse of the world. My eighty-four year old grandfather tells me that they have always talked about the housiing bubble. Ask some old-timers and they will tell you the same thing!

The real danger is that the economy will come around in time for Arnie in '08, and then you better get scared. Just don't let the fascists try and change the constitution for one man, and don't keep you eye off the ball (Ohio & Florida). Watch the recount there like a hawk. If things look suspicious, tell everybody. That is what you should be focusing on, not one man's dire prediction. Good grief.

If there really was all this danger out there, the stock market would reflect it. That is the consensus best guess on what is going to happen. If it tanks, then get nervous. In the mneantime hold onto at least 50% stocks for your own sake. The rest can go in bonds & cash right now if you are that nervous. If things turn up, still keep 30-40% in safe bonds and the money market. I don't know what this idiot will do next so that would be my move.

Watch the recounts & always look on the bright side of life.

Also, global warming is real. Support Kyoto with all your energy.

AFS

[mmonk]

319. We may be an economic powerhouse

but don't underestimate the EU. They control world trade rules (look what happened to G.E. in the planned Honeywell merger and Microsoft having to rewrite Windows) and the IMF. A unified Europe is a bigger marketplace.

[TJAllen]

326. Kennedy

Ted Kennedy is a leading supporter of amending the Constitution to allow foreigners to run. He stated this publicly prior to the election on the Sunday TV circuit.

[stepnw1f]

328. Who Gives A Fuck?

You. This is the least of our woes!

[indepat]

317. We the people get the government we deserve including the economy

resulting from its fiscal and tax policies.

[Catchawave]

318. And Bush "gits hisself a yacht" ? Oh brother. n/t