GOP Likely to Battle Over Guest-Worker Bill

[Moloch]

WASHINGTON — President George W. Bush faces a major rebellion within his own party if he follows through on a promise to push legislation that would offer millions of illegal immigrants a path to U.S. citizenship.

Almost no issue divides Republicans as deeply.

To get the guest-worker (search) initiative through Congress, Bush will need to go against the wishes of many Republicans and forge bipartisan alliances. That's what President Bill Clinton (search) did in 1993 to win approval for a free trade agreement with Mexico and Canada, over the objections of a large bloc of congressional Democrats.

The chance seems slim for finding common ground between those in favor of liberalized immigration laws — Bush, Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, and California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger for example — and those who want fewer immigrants, tougher border controls and harsher penalties.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142546,00.html

[w4rma]

1. Here's a chance for Dems to fight for something big and gain some

popularity.

Congressional Dems had better not allow themselves to be portrayed as weak on illegal immigration. Fox is trying to allow the GOP to be on both sides of this issue. Dems can band together and show that the GOP opposes Americans on this issue.

This will be a major bill talked about in ALL the conservative circles. This is a good place to make inroads within conservatives, if Dems don't wimp out.

[still_one]

3. what makes you think they won't buckle in

they have for the past four years, and after the 385 billion dollar budget that clinton, shumar, dashale, and others voted for, I have no reason to except anything more from them

[w4rma]

4. I really have little faith that they won't buckle (and therefore lose more

votes and popularity by doing so). But I hold out hope that they will see this as an opportunity and TAKE IT.

There is SO MUCH that can be done with this issue alone. This issue is worth votes upon votes of conservatives, who Dems have been having the MOST problems getting votes from, IF Dems would just take this opportunity to get those votes.

[Historic NY]

2. Who will they get then to pick the crops and be nannies?

[left15]

5. What is the going rate for picking crops?

[w4rma]

6. For an illegal or for a citizen? (nt)

[illflem]

7. Farmer for over 40 years

and pay piece-rate for harvest. Most Mexican workers make at least $10/hr and fast ones up to $20. No benefits.
I've hired thousands of immigrants, both legal and illegal over the years and have never talked with even one who had been paid less than minimum wage in any industry in the US. I don't personally know any growers who pay less than minimum, most are at least $1/hr over.
This leads me to believe that immigrants are being paid sub minimum illegal wages is a myth.

[Ian David]

8. The guest worker bill is a work of evil genius

Guest workers will have to pay into Social Security.

Their Guest Worker Permits expire in something like four years. Many people won't renew theirs, although many more probably will.

People who work the kinds of shitty jobs that "guest workers" do probably won't live long enough to collect Social Security.

Those that DO happen to live long enough simply won't be granted citizenship or a visa, so they will never get to collect the money they put into the social security system.

The government can create a workforce that pays into a "privatized" social security system and never gets money out of it.

Evil genius.

Has anyone else brought up this point?

[w4rma]

9. Why?

Why do you pay them that much? You can get away with paying them less. They'll still work for you at the lesser wage, because they have no other option as they aren't on the books.

Or do you pay them that much because you make up for it by not having to pay a payroll tax? But does that mean that the illegals actually get *more* take home pay since it's all under the table?

[illflem]

11. You're living in an anti big business fallacy

Every single immigrant legal and illegal I've hired has paid into SS and had withholding tax taken out their checks. Many of them never file since they have phony SS numbers even though they would be entitled to all the withholdings returned.

They are all on the books because I deduct them as an operating expense and it would cost more in the long run to be caught cheating in an audit. I'm sure most growers and businesses are in the same boat.

I pay higher than minimum because that's the going rate in the areas I've been in, granted I've only farmed in Calif, Wash and Montana.
I'm sure if a business is in an area where there is an oversupply of immigrants that business might pay less. But if they deduct labor as an operating expense they are paying minimum wage and deducting taxes, paying into SS and state workers insurance and providing a safe working environment.
To do otherwise would be foolish.

[w4rma]

12. Walmart was CAUGHT using about 250 illegal aliens as janators

http://www.seiu.org/action_center/issues_and_action/immigration/media_coverage.cfm

They were all paid below the going rate for janators.

Apparantly you have not seen these types of cases. The only cases you have personally seen (up until I showed you this example, I suppose) are of folks who used fake Social Security numbers and therefore were treated as regular citizens. That is one, but it is not the only situation in which illegals are "employed".

[illflem]

14. Sure there are unscrupulous employers.

Not that Wal-Mart deserves sticking up for but the janitors in question were employed by a private contractor owned by questionably legal immigrants, not Wal-Mart. When the janitorial company was further investigated it was found that paying below minimum and illegals was the least of their violations.

It seems quite a few of the major violators I've read of turn out to be Mexicans ripping off their own people more often than a US corporation doing so.

[Misunderestimator]

15. I'd like to see some evidence of "Mexicans ripping off their own people"

in this country. Where I live in Florida, there are THOUSANDS of undocumented workers, and I can assure you that they aren't getting $10/hour.

[illflem]

17. It's supply and demand that regulates

wages for workers resident and immigrant alike.
You will find much documentation on Mexicans ripping of Mexicans in a search for coyote immigration. The coyotes who rip off their own are some of the worst offenders.

[Misunderestimator]

18. Still looking for your sources...

Besides the fact that "Mexicans ripping off Mexicans" doesn't make Americans ripping off Mexicans any more justified. I suppose Guantanamo Bay isn't such a bad idea after all, since so much worse has been done to people. Gosh, just think of the possibilities of the evil we could justify.

[illflem]

19. Not trying to justify anything

It's just a fact that any business that pays taxes and writes off labor as an operating cost would be acting in their own disadvantage to pay less than minimum wage and pay under the table. They will eventually get audited and end up paying for several years of worker abuse.
For this reason I don't feel that the argument that business likes illegals because they can pay less than legal wages doesn't hold water.

[Misunderestimator]

20. Apparently many people are willing to take the risk...

And how on earth could an audit show anything if it wasn't documented?

As for the "fact" that ANY business would be acting at a disadvantage by using undocumented workers... consider that for each undocumented worker, they pay NO payroll taxes, NO unemployment taxes, NO benefits, and they can hire and fire at will without any labor consequences. It's pretty simple math to see that it is indeed cheaper to break the law.

[illflem]

21. If it was so easy

why would companies bother moving out of the country for cheap labor?

[Misunderestimator]

22. Um.... I haven't seen many growers in Florida leaving the country

for cheap labor. I think you're mixing up some other types of companies in this conversation.

[illflem]

23. but they are

selling off acreage for urbanization and moving operations to Brazil.
Biggest percentage of OJ in the US now comes from Brazil.
http://www.fred.ifas.ufl.edu/citrus/pubs/ref/

[Misunderestimator]

24. Yet there is still an ENORMOUS industry in Florida and a HUGE number

of undocumented workers. I'm still not getting how this makes your case that companies do not abuse the situation domestically.

[whatelseisnew]

10. Here's another view about and from farmerworkers...

Here are some statistics about the US Farmworker from the Coalition of Immokalee Workers website:

http://www.ciw-online.org/about.html

"The CIW is a community-based worker organization. Our members are largely Latino, Haitian, and Mayan Indian immigrants working in low-wage jobs throughout the state of Florida...

By 1998, we had won industry-wide raises of 13-25% (translating into several million dollars annually for the community in increased wages) and a new-found political and social respect from the outside world.

Those raises brought the tomato picking piece-rate back to pre-1980 levels (the piece-rate had fallen below those levels over the course of the intervening two decades), but wages remained below poverty level and continuing improvement was slow in coming. At the same time, the phenomenon of modern-day slavery was establishing a foothold in Florida's fields. While continuing to organize for fairer wages, we also turned our attention to attacking involuntary servitude in our state. From 1997-2000, we helped bring three modern-day slavery operations to justice, resulting in freedom for over 500 workers from debt bondage.

http://www.ciw-online.org/FAQs.html#FLSA

"Q: Are farmworkers really poor?

A: Yes. The US Department of Labor’s National Agricultural Workers Survey (January, 2000) reported that farmworkers’ median annual income is roughly $7,500, an amount far below the national poverty level. That same report goes on to conclude that farmworkers’ “low wages, sub-poverty annual earnings, significant periods of un-and underemployment… all add up to a labor force in significant economic distress."

In-depth investigations by two of Florida's leading newspapers -- the Miami Herald and the Palm Beach Post -- published during the past year confirm the DOL’s findings, not only reporting widespread poverty, sub-standard housing, and inhumane working conditions, but actually uncovering new cases of involuntary servitude (Miami Herald, “Florida's Fields of Despair: Destitute Farmworkers Exploited," 9/03; Palm Beach Post, “Modern-day Slavery: Still Harvesting Shame,” 12/03).

[coreystone]

13. The "gast-arbeiter" in Germany when stationed there in the early '70s,,

performed the work that the Germans didn't want to do. Many of those with whom I had contact were Turkish. In this country, at this point we have "outsourcing" plus "guest workers". How amazing that there are so many Americans seeking jobs, many of whom are not counted by the official "unemployment" figures provided by DOL.

The strange part about Germany was, when the economy ever had a a bit of slide, the "gast-arbeiter" was the victim of taking a German job. I guess things don't change much!

[lovuian]

16. I know my republican friends are furious about this

They are tired of picking up a Pringles can and having English and then Spanish written on it.

Same when they call their bank if English push 1 if Spanish push 2

This really agravates them!!! HA HA HA!!!

and Bush is not a Republican he is out for BIG BUSINESS and they want cheap labor