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emad
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:31 AM Original message |
Mbeki attacks 'racist' Churchill |
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LynnTheDem
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:42 AM Response to Original message |
1. Good lord yes, Churchill was VERY racist. |
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AP
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:12 PM Response to Reply #1 |
23. Yikes. That's pretty sick. |
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LynnTheDem
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:15 PM Response to Reply #23 |
25. Uh huh. That's why I chuckle every time idiot bush says he wants to be |
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Swamp Rat
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Thu Jan-06-05 01:20 PM Response to Reply #25 |
76. ... while he 'secretly' tries to emulate someone else. |
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ThePlumber
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Fri Jan-07-05 12:32 PM Response to Reply #76 |
100. Gotta post warnings |
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goforit
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:53 PM Response to Reply #1 |
36. AND....Churchill was not a very good student (very disruptive). |
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w4rma
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Wed Jan-05-05 08:19 PM Response to Reply #1 |
55. He was a Royalist, too. But at least the guy knew enough to fight |
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Vidar
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Thu Jan-06-05 12:12 AM Response to Reply #1 |
62. Racist: yes. Imperialist: yes. Dirty tricks: yes. Saved the world: yes. |
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IrateCitizen
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Thu Jan-06-05 11:20 AM Response to Reply #62 |
70. Well stated, Vidar. |
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Vidar
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Thu Jan-06-05 12:03 PM Response to Reply #70 |
72. Thank you. Agreed. |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 10:32 AM Response to Reply #72 |
89. Have you ever read John Lukacs' |
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Vidar
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Fri Jan-07-05 07:26 PM Response to Reply #89 |
118. I read some fictional account of Hitler winning WWII, but not that one. |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 07:37 PM Response to Reply #118 |
119. This one isn't fiction. |
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Vidar
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Fri Jan-07-05 08:50 PM Response to Reply #119 |
120. Oh, I see. |
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TheKingfish
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Thu Jan-06-05 01:22 PM Response to Reply #70 |
77. Same would go for Stalin? |
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IrateCitizen
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Fri Jan-07-05 09:24 AM Response to Reply #77 |
84. Stalin signed the 1939 non-aggression pact with Hitler... |
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JVS
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Fri Jan-07-05 03:35 PM Response to Reply #62 |
109. Come on we all know who the real bad guy who saved the world is |
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CatholicEug
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:46 AM Response to Original message |
2. I think it's wrong |
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David__77
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:01 AM Response to Reply #2 |
6. Churchill WAS racist by his era's standards. |
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emad
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:26 AM Response to Reply #6 |
11. I think that's called "revision". |
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David__77
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:33 AM Response to Reply #11 |
15. His failure to condemn British atrocities is enough evidence for many. |
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emad
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:36 AM Response to Reply #15 |
16. I think that his correspondence with Harry S Truman on this |
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AP
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:20 PM Response to Reply #16 |
28. You have any citations? Quotes? |
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emad
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Wed Jan-05-05 01:50 PM Response to Reply #28 |
39. I'll have a look at the Bodleian Library site where much of the |
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emad
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Wed Jan-05-05 01:54 PM Response to Reply #15 |
40. Now that is definitely revisionist! Nothing but nothing compares |
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AliciaKeyedUp
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Fri Jan-07-05 07:40 AM Response to Reply #15 |
82. Gosh, that's a silly post |
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Bill Lumbergh
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Fri Jan-07-05 07:10 PM Response to Reply #15 |
116. Yeah... that's ridiculous |
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DoNotRefill
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:39 AM Response to Reply #6 |
17. Hmmmm.... |
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David__77
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:10 PM Response to Reply #17 |
21. This is a stain, of course. |
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DoNotRefill
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Wed Jan-05-05 08:08 PM Response to Reply #21 |
54. Heh. |
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Charon
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Thu Jan-06-05 09:23 AM Response to Reply #21 |
64. This is a stain, of course |
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AP
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:18 PM Response to Reply #6 |
27. FDR was a pretty good judge of fascist imperialism. |
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag
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Wed Jan-05-05 01:16 PM Response to Reply #6 |
38. The lesson here, ladies and gentlemen, is: |
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GarySeven
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:11 AM Response to Reply #2 |
8. Reagan and Churchill were very similar in this regard |
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frankieT
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:22 AM Response to Reply #2 |
9. Hitler too was able |
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CatholicEug
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:29 AM Response to Reply #9 |
12. Weak argument |
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LynnTheDem
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:21 PM Response to Reply #12 |
29. Strong argument. |
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Jesus H. Christ
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:31 PM Response to Reply #12 |
33. Can we call Hitler a racist? |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Wed Jan-05-05 04:25 PM Response to Reply #9 |
44. Yes, but to what purpose? |
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AP
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:13 PM Response to Reply #2 |
24. Mark Twain called the imperialists racists back then. |
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GarySeven
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Wed Jan-05-05 07:38 PM Response to Reply #24 |
53. Don't forget Mark Twain actually knew Churchill |
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AP
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Wed Jan-05-05 08:49 PM Response to Reply #53 |
56. I LOVE Mark Twain. |
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LynnTheDem
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:17 PM Response to Reply #2 |
26. He was still a racist. |
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Just Me
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:48 AM Response to Original message |
3. Guess who just loves to spew "Churchill" at every turn? |
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HamdenRice
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:49 AM Response to Original message |
4. Ironic: ravaged the white people of Africa too... |
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KurtNYC
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:56 AM Response to Reply #4 |
5. Trying to score all the points he can |
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DavidDvorkin
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:29 AM Response to Reply #4 |
14. Nonsense |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Wed Jan-05-05 04:41 PM Response to Reply #14 |
46. That does sound plausible, |
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DavidDvorkin
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Wed Jan-05-05 09:51 PM Response to Reply #46 |
57. Well, the lesser breeds should learn to speak English better! |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Fri Jan-07-05 10:40 AM Response to Reply #57 |
90. That, too. |
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HamdenRice
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Thu Jan-06-05 11:02 AM Response to Reply #14 |
68. Boer War |
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DavidDvorkin
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Thu Jan-06-05 01:14 PM Response to Reply #68 |
75. You have demonstrated my point |
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HamdenRice
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Fri Jan-07-05 09:48 AM Response to Reply #75 |
85. South African Republic !?!?!?!? |
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DavidDvorkin
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Fri Jan-07-05 11:07 AM Response to Reply #85 |
91. Former S. African, now in the U.S. |
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HamdenRice
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Fri Jan-07-05 12:58 PM Response to Reply #91 |
103. Holy Cow -- What a small world!!! I did my research around Rustenburg! |
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DavidDvorkin
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Fri Jan-07-05 02:38 PM Response to Reply #103 |
106. Wow, that's pretty cool. |
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Name removed
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:06 AM Response to Original message |
7. Deleted message |
frankieT
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:23 AM Response to Reply #7 |
10. true -eom- |
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Just Me
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:29 AM Response to Reply #10 |
13. Ya' think? Hmmmm. n/t |
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frankieT
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Wed Jan-05-05 07:33 PM Response to Reply #13 |
52. sorry if it bother you. |
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starroute
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:48 AM Response to Reply #7 |
18. British colonialism had terrible effects on its colonies |
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DavidDvorkin
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:07 PM Response to Reply #18 |
20. Building railroads and water systems and schools |
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LynnTheDem
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:25 PM Response to Reply #20 |
30. "abuses and evil deeds"??? How about the largest genocide in human |
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AP
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:28 PM Response to Reply #20 |
32. Those railroads just greased the skids of shipping |
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SweetLeftFoot
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:33 PM Response to Reply #20 |
34. Cricket |
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TyeDye75
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Fri Jan-07-05 01:49 PM Response to Reply #34 |
105. You may be eating those words |
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bicentennial_baby
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:32 PM Response to Reply #20 |
59. Cecil Rhodes, Henry Morton Stanley |
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AP
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:26 PM Response to Reply #18 |
31. The biggest: massive transfer of wealth to the colonizing |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Wed Jan-05-05 04:58 PM Response to Reply #18 |
48. The Opium Wars in China |
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chenGOD
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:42 AM Response to Reply #48 |
157. That first part is not quite right... |
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fertilizeonarbusto
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Wed Jan-05-05 11:52 AM Response to Original message |
19. Is this news? |
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plasticsundance
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:11 PM Response to Reply #19 |
22. Yes it is news ... |
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d.l.Green
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Wed Jan-05-05 12:45 PM Response to Reply #22 |
35. Not only that... |
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American Tragedy
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Wed Jan-05-05 02:53 PM Response to Reply #35 |
42. I assure you, HIV is no hoax |
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starroute
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Wed Jan-05-05 04:41 PM Response to Reply #22 |
45. So Churchill believed in the Bavarian Illuminati? |
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Name removed
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Wed Jan-05-05 09:56 PM Response to Reply #45 |
58. Deleted message |
DS1
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:36 PM Response to Reply #58 |
60. You, my new friend, are completely obsessed with Jews |
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Name removed
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Wed Jan-05-05 10:39 PM Response to Reply #60 |
61. Deleted message |
hughee99
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Wed Jan-05-05 05:23 PM Response to Reply #22 |
50. That's right, he's JUST LIKE HITLER! |
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Ms. Clio
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Sat Jan-08-05 12:08 AM Response to Reply #22 |
125. Eye-opening quotes |
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AngryAmish
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Wed Jan-05-05 01:13 PM Response to Original message |
37. Churchill started his career slaughtering Africans |
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emad
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Wed Jan-05-05 02:03 PM Response to Original message |
41. Gibson's riposte: |
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plasticsundance
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Wed Jan-05-05 03:11 PM Response to Reply #41 |
43. emad ... your article does nothing |
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emad
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Thu Jan-06-05 10:08 AM Response to Reply #43 |
65. Churchill's record as a statesman, politician and man of honor |
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AP
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Mon Jan-10-05 02:23 PM Response to Reply #65 |
137. "man of honor"?? Churchill is partly responsible for the crap... |
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CatholicEug
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Wed Jan-05-05 04:56 PM Response to Original message |
47. History hates a winner n/t |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Wed Jan-05-05 05:08 PM Response to Reply #47 |
49. And can you blame History, |
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plasticsundance
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Wed Jan-05-05 05:43 PM Response to Reply #47 |
51. Ah ... I see ... CatholicEug |
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CatholicEug
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Fri Jan-07-05 11:42 AM Response to Reply #51 |
95. I'm not justifying Churchill's racist attitudes |
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Psephos
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Thu Jan-06-05 12:52 AM Response to Original message |
63. Yawn. It's not hard to rip any historical figure a new asshole. |
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plasticsundance
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Thu Jan-06-05 10:33 AM Response to Reply #63 |
66. Psephos ... hope you get a chance to catch up on your sleep |
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Stella_Artois
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Mon Jan-10-05 11:13 AM Response to Reply #66 |
133. Taken within the context of that period in history |
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AP
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Thu Jan-06-05 12:09 PM Response to Reply #63 |
74. Try to rip Twain a new asshole. |
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Psephos
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Thu Jan-06-05 03:53 PM Response to Reply #74 |
78. Fish in a barrel |
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AP
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Thu Jan-06-05 04:24 PM Response to Reply #78 |
79. Twain was co-founded Anti-Imperialism League with Jane Addams. |
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Psephos
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Fri Jan-07-05 12:30 AM Response to Reply #79 |
80. I did what exactly what you asked... |
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AP
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Fri Jan-07-05 09:57 AM Response to Reply #80 |
86. If you want to attack people's private behavior, I think everyone could... |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Fri Jan-07-05 12:09 PM Response to Reply #78 |
97. You seem extraordinarily confused, Psephos.. |
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Psephos
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Fri Jan-07-05 05:07 PM Response to Reply #97 |
112. Confused? At least I read your post...did you read mine? |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Sun Jan-09-05 11:34 AM Response to Reply #112 |
126. My sincere apologies, Psephos. |
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Psephos
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Fri Jan-14-05 02:06 PM Response to Reply #126 |
165. KCabot, you put a lot of thought into your posts... |
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plasticsundance
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Fri Jan-07-05 03:13 PM Response to Reply #78 |
108. Let's have some fun ... |
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theboss
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Thu Jan-06-05 10:40 AM Response to Original message |
67. Whether or not Churchill is racist.... |
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Magmadona
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Thu Jan-06-05 11:17 AM Response to Reply #67 |
69. Humm.. |
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NYC
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Fri Jan-07-05 07:21 AM Response to Reply #69 |
81. Welcome to DU, Magmadona. |
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plasticsundance
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Thu Jan-06-05 11:30 AM Response to Reply #67 |
71. The posting from theboss is a good example ... |
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AP
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Thu Jan-06-05 12:06 PM Response to Reply #67 |
73. If Mark Twain had been PM of the UK, there'd be no |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 10:15 AM Response to Reply #73 |
87. And most of Europe would be speaking German. |
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AP
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Fri Jan-07-05 11:58 AM Response to Reply #87 |
96. Maybe. Maybe not. I think anyone attuned to the evil of racist imperialism |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 12:25 PM Response to Reply #96 |
98. Disagree. |
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AP
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Fri Jan-07-05 01:04 PM Response to Reply #98 |
104. Well anyway... |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 03:43 PM Response to Reply #104 |
111. Fair enough. |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Fri Jan-07-05 12:27 PM Response to Reply #87 |
99. You forget that |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 12:45 PM Response to Reply #99 |
102. I'm not sure where to start with that. |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Fri Jan-07-05 05:29 PM Response to Reply #102 |
113. "So Churchill |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 07:26 PM Response to Reply #113 |
117. Yikes. |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Sun Jan-09-05 12:19 PM Response to Reply #117 |
127. My! My! |
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Raskolnik
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Sun Jan-09-05 06:02 PM Response to Reply #127 |
130. You're all over the place with that one. |
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American Tragedy
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Sun Jan-09-05 12:57 PM Response to Reply #113 |
129. Yeah, the gulags were really like the fucking Renaissance Hotel. |
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eric144
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Fri Jan-07-05 07:57 AM Response to Original message |
83. Mandela is named as MI6 agent ? |
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Moderator
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Fri Jan-07-05 11:22 AM Response to Reply #83 |
92. eic144 |
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emad
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Fri Jan-07-05 11:33 AM Response to Reply #83 |
93. No wonder Sir mark Thatcher - Equatorial Guinea Coup Plot |
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leesa
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Fri Jan-07-05 10:20 AM Response to Original message |
88. Well, no doubt. But can we get with current events? Plenty of racism |
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plasticsundance
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Fri Jan-07-05 11:37 AM Response to Reply #88 |
94. Who defeated Hitler? |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 12:37 PM Response to Reply #94 |
101. Without Churchill, the US never gets a chance to fight Germany |
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Magmadona
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Fri Jan-07-05 02:52 PM Response to Reply #101 |
107. Thats fine and dandy. |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 03:36 PM Response to Reply #107 |
110. I'm not trying to prove he "gave a damn". |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Fri Jan-07-05 05:41 PM Response to Reply #101 |
114. Why do you think |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 07:09 PM Response to Reply #114 |
115. For several reasons. |
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roguevalley
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Fri Jan-07-05 09:04 PM Response to Reply #115 |
121. part of the problem with Churchill and his confreres was that they |
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malaise
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Fri Jan-07-05 09:14 PM Response to Reply #121 |
123. Thanks Mbeki |
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Raskolnik
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Fri Jan-07-05 11:19 PM Response to Reply #123 |
124. "so called heroes who are nothing more than scumbags" |
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Joe Chi Minh
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Sun Jan-09-05 12:25 PM Response to Reply #115 |
128. 'Fraid not. |
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Raskolnik
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Sun Jan-09-05 07:14 PM Response to Reply #128 |
131. What can I say in the face of well-reasoned arguments like that? |
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Placebo
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Fri Jan-07-05 09:13 PM Response to Original message |
122. Damn that racist Churchill! |
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emad
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Mon Jan-10-05 10:38 AM Response to Original message |
132. "Why do so many Islamic States fail": Jasper Gerard, S. Times |
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plasticsundance
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Mon Jan-10-05 11:46 AM Response to Reply #132 |
134. Not to get off topic ... but |
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emad
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Mon Jan-10-05 11:50 AM Response to Reply #134 |
135. Thanks for that. Empathise yes. But point out the humbug and |
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Raskolnik
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Mon Jan-10-05 07:18 PM Response to Reply #134 |
138. That's all right, we're off topic already. |
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AP
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Mon Jan-10-05 02:19 PM Response to Reply #132 |
136. Mbeki would make a bad doctor, but he does understand post-colonial |
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plasticsundance
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Tue Jan-11-05 09:54 AM Response to Reply #136 |
139. Exactly AP. |
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emad
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Tue Jan-11-05 10:35 AM Response to Reply #136 |
140. Pointing out the obvious flaws in Mbeki's polemic viz his risible |
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AP
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Tue Jan-11-05 12:07 PM Response to Reply #140 |
141. Colonialism was bad politics, bad law, bad economics, bad ethics, bad... |
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emad
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Wed Jan-12-05 09:02 AM Response to Reply #141 |
144. India's remarkable Civil Service owes much to the organisational |
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AP
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Wed Jan-12-05 09:42 AM Response to Reply #144 |
145. Time for you to shift focus from the Masons to Edward Said. |
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emad
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Wed Jan-12-05 09:48 AM Response to Reply #145 |
146. It's just that I'll never forget Harry S Truman's eulogy to Churchill |
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AP
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Wed Jan-12-05 09:54 AM Response to Reply #146 |
148. A eulogy is not the place for critical theorizing about the effects of... |
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emad
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Wed Jan-12-05 10:58 AM Response to Reply #148 |
149. -It was filmed at the US ambassador's residence Winfield House |
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AP
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Wed Jan-12-05 12:06 PM Response to Reply #149 |
150. I doubt many Americans think of Truman when they think of civil rights. |
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emad
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:03 AM Response to Reply #150 |
151. UK's BBC is going to broadcast a major Truman tribute in their |
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AP
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:12 AM Response to Reply #151 |
152. There is no revisionist history about Truman. |
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emad
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:21 AM Response to Reply #152 |
153. I'm going to video the BBC tribute and post it online so that others |
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AP
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:26 AM Response to Reply #153 |
154. What were Churchill's attitudes about colonialism and empire? |
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emad
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:31 AM Response to Reply #154 |
155. Well, refuting the racim slur is the No1 issue. The colonialism |
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AP
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:37 AM Response to Reply #155 |
156. Do you not know what his position was? |
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emad
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:57 AM Response to Reply #156 |
159. Rowling buisness is still sub judice in the UK courts. An appeal |
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AP
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Fri Jan-14-05 12:09 PM Response to Reply #159 |
164. Incidentally, your first paragraph has me scratching my head. |
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emad
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Sat Jan-15-05 11:15 AM Response to Reply #164 |
167. There has been a series of UK lawsuits alleging she stole the |
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AP
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Sat Jan-15-05 02:48 PM Response to Reply #167 |
168. This is LUNACY. Everybody loves a conspiracy theory, but you simply |
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emad
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Sun Jan-16-05 10:23 AM Response to Reply #168 |
169. Humbug. |
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AP
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Sun Jan-16-05 11:38 AM Response to Reply #169 |
171. Promises, promises. |
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emad
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Mon Jan-17-05 07:02 AM Response to Reply #171 |
172. Reeling them in one by one. Wouldn't want to be in their shoes. |
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NCN007
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Thu Jan-13-05 11:52 AM Response to Reply #150 |
158. Remind me... |
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emad
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Thu Jan-13-05 12:31 PM Response to Reply #158 |
160. Thank you. |
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AP
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Thu Jan-13-05 12:40 PM Response to Reply #158 |
161. If it wasn't Churchill, I don't see how it's relevant. |
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mojojojo27
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Tue Jan-11-05 12:20 PM Response to Original message |
142. yes |
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plasticsundance
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Tue Jan-11-05 01:35 PM Response to Reply #142 |
143. That's not what the original premise was about |
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AP
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Wed Jan-12-05 09:51 AM Response to Reply #143 |
147. I have a friend who's black and who applied to the state department. |
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d.l.Green
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Thu Jan-13-05 01:39 PM Response to Reply #147 |
162. Then why is this called Democratic UNDERGROUND? |
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AP
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Sat Jan-15-05 11:09 AM Response to Reply #162 |
166. So true. |
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yellowcanine
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Thu Jan-13-05 01:50 PM Response to Original message |
163. Churchill wasn't racist per se - he was an imperialist. That is why Bush |
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jdonaldball
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Sun Jan-16-05 11:15 AM Response to Original message |
170. Some Minimalist Common Sense and Zen, in defense of Churchill |
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