(Professor Ward) Churchill met with Gadhafi

[Freddie Stubbs]

Controversial prof set to make speech at Wisconsin school

By Charlie Brennan And Laura Frank, Rocky Mountain News
February 11, 2005

This is not the first time Ward Churchill has disagreed with the U.S. government's idea of who is, and is not, a terrorist.

In April 1983, Churchill went to Libya to meet with Col. Moammar Gadhafi.

The U.S. government had banned travel to Libya two years earlier, saying Gadhafi supported terrorism. Churchill traveled to Tripoli and Benghazi as a representative of the International Indian Treaty Council and the American Indian Movement. He went with Dace Means, brother of AIM leader Russell Means.

They were seeking recognition from Gadhafi of the U.S. government's breaking of Indian treaties.

more: http://www.insidedenver.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3540067,00.html

[Moderator]

1. Could you edit the title?

To be:
(Professor Ward) Churchill met with Gadhafi

I know you're following rules for this forum by posting it as you found it - which is great - but the headline as the news site wrote it sounds like it's referring to Winston Churchill (if you're not up on the story).

Thanks

[Freddie Stubbs]

2. Done!

[applegrove]

3. Tks - I get tired of hoping for some real Churchill wisdom and ending

Tks - I get tired of hoping for some real Churchill wisdom and ending up a debate about some academic who is 10 minutes famous because he baited vitims.

[candy]

21. Ditto! The guy is a fraud and a hater IMHO !

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[applegrove]

25. What does IMHO mean?

And I am not so sure that some of this guy's ideas are so wrong (if you get rid of the hate). But lots of people have been talking about the McJob vs. Jihad theory (how they play off of and need each other). I don't care enough to find out if he has a new twist or something interesting to say. The attention grabbing victim baiting turned me off.

[candy]

26. IMHO

In my humble opinion!

[LinuxInsurgent]

4. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Mandela's met with Gadhafi...many Third World leaders have met with Ghadafi...he just visited the EU and made the rounds there...

Gadhafi is an eccentric megalomaniac...but even with that said, he's not the worst out there...he doesn't even come close to Saddam Hussein, Anastasio Somoza, Rafael Trujillo, Augusto Pinochet, or other American sponsored dictators...so why is it wrong for Churchill to meet with a sovereign leader of another country for legal recognition of the tribes' plight. If we condemn Ward Churchill for this...we would be playing into the hands of the conservatives' argument, which basically is: U.S. is good, everyone else bad...and only we decide who is a legitimate player in international affairs.

I don't agree with that....

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. Except that it was illegal to travel to Libya at the time

I wonder if the statute of limitations has run out? :shrug:

[LinuxInsurgent]

8. oh well..yeah...

but that's like pointing out that it is illegal to travel to Cuba too...and millions of Americans do it.

Martin Luther King said it...when a law is unjust, it's the duty of morally conscious person to break it. A travel ban to Libya shouldn't be illegal...in fact...all travel bans are bogus, in my book. What should be banned is collusion with an enemy government...but simply visiting a country shouldn't be illegal.

I still don't see the heavy infraction that Churchill has done...yeah...he's associated with more militant members of this country...so he doesn't live a Nascar Dad life...big deal...he's a smart guy, committed to his activism, and defends the rights of others to say what they wish, even if they are Nazis (he said it). I like that type of guy around me.

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. Travel bans are used in conjunction with economic sanctions

The goal isn't to stop Americans from going there, it is to stop them from spending money there.

[LinuxInsurgent]

16. well yes, I know that..

but...the question is...should we condemn Ward Churchill for violating that rule? I don't think so...I happen to think that his comments on the essay were correct, and needed to be said. And I saw his CU speech online...and he clarified himself perfectly...I didn't see a horrible, morally-defunct human being...I saw a logical and rational intellectual explaining the situation as he sees it...and I think he's right.

He even made the obvious statement about following the Golden Rule...if we want to lessen terrorism. He's right.

I think that the witchhunt against Churchill is wrong...more people should speak up on it.

[tlcandie]

29. I agree ...

Interesting that AIM is now saying he's a fraud, yet it appears here that they rather endorsed him during that time. I found a whole lot out about AIM (quite interesting who controls their purse strings) and put it under another thread relating to Churchill in editorials/opinions.

[not systems]

31. found the thread.

Groups like AIM can have lots of schisms so I
would not be surprised of he was part of a faction
that is out of standing.

[tlcandie]

33. Totally agree.... yet people are pulling it out of the hat to try

and further cast negativity on him. :+

[LinuxInsurgent]

42. weren't those AIM bodyguards

at his CU speech? The guys next to him....in black, black glasses, and AIM logos on their shirts?

Did I misinterpret the membership of his bodyguards?

[tlcandie]

55. Sorry, did not see that speech, so I've no clue ...

:shrug: THAT would be an intersting pic to throw into the rubble!

[daleo]

18. I think it is to stop them from seeing things for themselves.

The whole idea that Americans are banned from traveling to countries that they aren't at war with is amazing to me. I don't believe Canada has this type of law, but I could be mistaken.

[candy]

22. You LIKE that kind of guy around you? You should get out more.

[not systems]

28. Iconoclastic and intelligent. Yea, I like that kind of guy around...

flag waving knee jerk America firsters, no not as much.

Thanks.

[LinuxInsurgent]

43. why?

I've got no problems with active, critical thinking people...he's not threatening to me. On the contrary, it's refreshing to hear people who have solid opinions, and who back them up with reasoned arguments.

I get out just fine...i've got an active lifestyle outside of my intellectual work...thank you.

[bloom]

14. Didn't Cheney or Rumsfeld or both

trade with Iran when they were banned from doing so?

Or is that Ok because they have such high up positions now. :shrug: :eyes:

[fishwax]

19. no, it's okay because they're republicans

it was always ok b/c they're republicans. :eyes::puke:

[bloom]

13. Some people seem to be digging pretty deep

to try to come up with stuff to smear him with.

If people disagree with him - seems like they could just disagree with him fer Crissakes.

[candle_bright]

32. Gadhafi isn't just an eccentric megalomaniac

He is personally responsible for ordering the bombing of the plane that went down in Lockerbee, Scotland.

We aren't playing into "the hands of conservatives" on this at all. Churchill meeting with Gadhafi in Libya was a clear violation.

I really don't even understand what he thought he was going to accomplish either. Why would he ask a Libyan dictator to acknowledge a situation totally exclusive to the U.S.? Honestly, I truly don't get it. Anyone know? :shrug:

[tlcandie]

34. Ummm, don't hold me to this, but I believe THAT has been

debunked or at least is in SERIOUS question status for those who have done a bit of research. :+

[candle_bright]

35. What has been debunked?

Gadhafi ordering the bombing of the plane or Churchill saying he met with Gadhafi about a Native American issue?

[tlcandie]

37. Ghadafi ORDERING the downing of the planes...

It's kind of the like the yellow cake in Niger incident.

[candle_bright]

38. Can you provide a source for that?

Last time I checked, Gadhafi not only admitted it, but paid millions of dollars in restitution to the victims...

[tlcandie]

39. I said don't hold me to it .. which, for me, means that I'm not able

atm to do the research because I have a TON of school work to complete and I am being negligent by even reading/posting anything on DU! Seemslikeadream, TINOE, those who always have the deep and overlooked facts around here posted something, unless my memory totally fails me, about this a LONG time ago when Ghadafi was admitted into the circle by this cabal.

If you have time you might check, sorry to post that and not have the time to search the archives for it. :/

[tlcandie]

54. Okay, had to take short break from bookwork! whew ..

Went to archives and you can find some of what I'm talking about here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=277645

You might check other archives searching for Ghadafi or Lockerbie.. :+

Again, sorry for bailing on ya, but I just have a LOT to do :+

EDIT: GermanDJ was the poster

<SNIP>
GermanDJ (140 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Dec-20-03 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. No, it's an honest question.




Quaddafi took the blame for Lockerbie, because he actually had no other chance to stop sanctions against his country. That's how international "law" is defined these days: Either you comply with the views of the only remaining superpower on this planet or you get a taste of his mighty military firepower.

But back to the facts: I looked for some reports I read some time ago and found the following links which show rather coherently that Libya was not involved in the Lockerbie bombing:

http://www.countercurrents.org/chomsky3.htm

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/Terr...
<SNip>

[candle_bright]

56. I'll read those links a bit later

but I don't understand why people are defending Gadhafi.

He also lied about having nuclear weaponry, which he later admitted and now those materials are secured in Oak Ridge, TN.

[tlcandie]

57. I think the point is... and I could be wrong... is that we COULD

point the finger at MANY including ourselves for lying or dishonesty in reporting what we do or don't have regarding nukes or WMDs. Besides us, Israel comes to mind. But the US and Israel seem to be immune to all this finger pointing.

Pakistan has them, India has them...the list goes on and on and on!!! I do not believe anyone is actually "defending" Ghadafi. IMO, it seems there are some, myself included, who are trying to present the facts or both sides.

I don't believe it's right to point fingers at people when you are just as guilty or there are others out there as guilty, but you overlook them because you like them or are getting kick backs from them, etc., etc.

With nukes/WMDs it's a black/white issue for me. I hope this helps some. :hi:

[not systems]

40. Damn straight. Qadhafi is Bush's poster boy for a good arab...

If Bush doesn't hold a grudge with a pedigree going
back to saint Ron then maybe just maybe they know
something, like what really happened or didn't.

[LinuxInsurgent]

45. yes...that's true

he's responsible for Lockerbie...we're responsible for Vietnam's 3 million deaths, for Hiroshima/Nagasaki's hundreds of thousands, and so on. Of Vietnam's 3 million, 2 million are innocent civilians that died in American bombing raids, the most intense since World War II...and the same in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were not military targets, but deliberate civilian targets of our bombing. People do business every day with the United States...and those leaders responsible for those mass-murders still have an untarred legacy...unlike Ghaddafi.

So...if we are gonna prosecute Ward for meeting with Ghadafi, who on the totem pole of war crimes is a lowly neophyte, then I guess we'd better get the American and world courts ready, because a whole army of American and American-allied individuals are about to be brought to trial for having connection with the American government during those two conflicts.

I'm game for prosecuting Ward on this "affiliation" charge...you got your thousands of American collaborators ready? /sarcasm off

It's ludicrous to try to condemn Ward Churchill because of his visit to Libya...that to me is not a crime...I know dozens of Americans who have visited Cuba...how come we are not arguing for their prosecution as well. I think it is downright reactionary to suggest prosecution of Ward Churchill under illegitimate, "no travel" laws passed by our isolationist and anti-foreign Congress.

[candle_bright]

58. Well

I never said anything about prosecuting Churchill. I said he was clearly in violation.

Feel free to defend this violation all you like, but I surely wont. You wont find me defending Gadhafi either.

That's like getting caught breaking the law and using the defense of "other people do it too."

[Village Idiot]

6. Wasn't in only in 1996 that the US imposed sanctions, though?

[ET Awful]

7. 1983 eh? Isn't that the same year that Don Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad

to meet with Saddam Hussein?

[Hobarticus]

9. The US was negotiating pipelines with the Taliban in early 2001...

Churchill's "mission" will get more attention, nonetheless.

[deutsey]

10. Taliban leaders visit Houston, TX in late '90s, when Bush was Gov.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1997/12/14/wtal14.html

No big deal, though. Just good bidness. :eyes:

[Hobarticus]

17. Didn't think scum could stack so high...

Too bad people are more worried about Spongebob, eh?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

11. And in 1983 Rumsfield meet with Saddam

to offer U.S. support

Nevertheless, you don't see the right bringing that up a lot. The fact is the right is going to do everything they can to discredit Ward Churchill because he dared to speak the truth about our foreign policy for the last 50 years.

[Career Prole]

15. Ward Churchill? Libya? This is HUGE!!!!!111

That whole Cheney/Halliburton illegally doing business with Iraq/Iran/Libya is just more partisan political rumbling, but Ward Churchill went to Libya!?!?!
Holy $hit...that's the kind of traitorous behavior which could bring America to its knees!!
sarcasm off

[LinuxInsurgent]

47. hahah...that's funny

I agree...it's ridiculous to pick on an academic/intellectual who happens to visit a weird, megalomanic Arab leader under arcane, and illegitimate "travel ban" laws...but skip right over the more significant corporate trading that occurs behind-the-scenes.

For the record, I don't think Gadhaffi is a model to be followed. There's stuff about his "revolution" that I like...there's stuff about HIM that smacks of "cult to the leader"..and that doesn't jive well with me. Last I read..he ridiculed himself by holding a "convoy through Africa" from South Africa...and the people were almost laughing at his entourage. If he really was taken seriously, he'd be a world-class African leader...but he's largely just looked upon as an eccentric, megalomaniac...but a harmless, and regionally-confined one. You don't see no Arab or African countries FEARING Libya, do you?

The fact that he threw away his meaningless WMD to try to get attention goes to that point...Ghaddafi doesn't want to be a Third World Revolutionary just for that sake...he's after personal adulation...whether it comes from left-wing circles in the Third World or acclaim from EU leaders. So...frankly...he doesn't bother me...though's he not MY Third World model for change.

[Vladimir]

49. Indeed n/t

[maxsolomon]

20. ward churchill is my new hero

the GOP hysteria machine is in 5th gear here.

what are they trying to distract everyone from? wacko jacko?

[bloom]

23. well there is a new 9/11 report out

Might make them look worse if anybody paid attention.

Of course it's hard to imagine them looking worse.

[graywarrior]

27. Same here.

I dig his in your face confrontational fight back attitude. Right wingers are not used to someone telling them to shut up. Watched him on C-Span last night and cheered.

[tlcandie]

30. Jup you won't see anyone making him fall to his knees...

he's sharp and quick...love to watch him debate! :+

[hellbound-liberal]

41. He was on C-Span last night. You can watch it on the C-Span

web site. I really don't understand the relevance of his trip to Libya or anything else he has done. That sounds like some more lame right wing attacks on someone's character because they can't refute what he is saying. People need to examine the accuracy of what he is saying and the shortcomings of our own government and history rather than get caught up in the character assassinations of the mainstream press who cannot justify their own support for our foreign policy.

[LinuxInsurgent]

48. me too...

i absolutely loved when, faced with a 2,000 packed crowd, and 500 waiting outside (obviously evidencing the popularity of his views...and of his "fighting for academia" stance), he first said in his CU speech..."Bill Owens...do you get it now!?"

Loved it....the Right has been served with a notice...the Left's got warriors too...and ours actually make sense.

[graywarrior]

52. DNC needs to pick up the same attitude

There's a lot of us as pisesd as Churchill, just not as articulate and ballsy. But he gives me strength to say what I think. It's a good thing to start pissing off the right.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

36. Oh, I get it. 'Liberal' professors are terrorists. Brownshirts coming..n/t

[Tinoire]

44. Oh horror of horrors!

The man went to Libya when it was forbidden you say? Quick! Make him Secretary of State!

I look forward to the day when we join forces to zealously go after the right-wing scum professors who are training college students to think that it's ok to torture non-whites anywhere in the world you find them, kill them and steal their resources. Or to go after the right-wing college groups that have been organizing to chase the Left from university campuses. Shades of Nazi Germany and not a blink from certain people.

"Thanks to everyone who made our protest of lunatic Ward Churchill such a success!"

http://cugop.org/



You've just got to love those rascally young College Republicans at CU! Dick Cheney does so the must be great people with a great agenda. Excuse me friends while I acknowledge the errors of my progressive ways and jump RIGHT on that Nazi bandwagon ;)

[nodehopper]

46. I thought it said he met with Gandolf

Must drink more coffee.

Also who gives a sh*t who he met with? This is so quintessentially American Media--trial for lifestyle, very Mersault condemned to death for not being sad at his mother´s funeral.

[LinuxInsurgent]

50. agreed..

very American RIGHT WING lifestyle smear...

[JoMama49]

53. Mike Malloy also interviewed Professor Churchill on his

Friday night show (2/11/05). You can download and watch the show at http://www.whiterosesociety.org

[number6]

51. so what,..

Ward Churchill met with Gadhafi ..

post 11 and 15 ,...right on !! :thumbsup: ;)

[leesa]

59. But...but...but...Gadhafi's one of our new BEST friends, isn't he?

And it's perfectly fine for Cheney's Halliburton to trade with Iraq and Iran while they are under sanctions.