Reuters:Mt. Kilimanjaro Photo Wake-Up Call for Action: Global Warming

[chlamor]

LONDON -- A photo of Mount Kilimanjaro stripped of its snowcap for the first time in 11,000 years will be used as dramatic testimony for action against global warming as ministers from the world's biggest polluters meet on Tuesday.


Formerly snow-capped Mount Kilimanjaro

The volcanic crater at the summit of Kilimanjaro, Africa's highest mountain, as it has not been seen before in 11,000 years. (Alex Majoli/Magnum Photos)

Gathering in London for a two-day brainstorming session on the environment agenda of Britain's presidency of the Group of Eight rich nations, the environment and energy ministers from 20 countries will be handed a book containing the stark image of Africa's tallest mountain, among others.

"This is a wake-up call and an unequivocal message that a low-carbon global economy is necessary, achievable and affordable," said Steve Howard of the Climate Group charity which organised the book and an associated exhibition.

 http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=C5XARB315MV3WCRBAEKSFEY?type=scienceNews&storyID=7892887

[PartyPooper]

1. This story can't be true. After all, the earth is only 6,000 years old.

At least, that's what the fundies say.

:think:

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

2. no snow=no water...we are in trouble--wars over oil turn to water

this is beyond the ecosystem screw up where the food chain collapses.

We could be seeing a drought in the future that will lead to "mass destruction" and invasion/'takeovers around the world...all for water

but there is no need for the You knighted States of Muruka to sign any treaty.
No, not us.

[NYC]

4. Water. Like the Tigris and Euphrates?

?

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

41. you got it---that's item #2 n/t

.

[hatrack]

3. Wow, moving even faster than I thought it would

And I thought it would move quickly. Yowza!

[rodeodance]

5. last summer there was a big article in some newspapers along with

similar pics --illustrating the difference in about 50 years or so.

[Gloria]

6. Wow. I wonder what Mt. Fuji (Japan) is looking like these days ?

eom

[Gloria]

7. I also heard on Radio Canada that yellow-jackets (bees) have

shown up in the Arctic and the Inuit have never seen them and don't have a word for them (heard it a couple of days ago).

[Tesha]

23. Let's teach them the wasps are called "Republicans" (NT)

[NYC]

66. You seem good at

recognizing an opportunity. Smart thinking.

[vonSchloegel]

8. You're jumping to conclusions

It would seem that the disappearing glacier makes a dramatic photo, and an emotional case for Kyoto; but to blame the melting on Global warming is intellectual dishonesty:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0923_030923_kilimanjaroglaciers.html

<There's a tendency for people to take this temperature increase and draw quick conclusions, which is a mistake," said Douglas R. Hardy, a climatologist at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst, who monitored Kilimanjaro's glaciers from mountaintop weather stations since 2000. "The real explanations are much more complex. Global warming plays a part, but a variety of factors are really involved."

According to Hardy, forest reduction in the areas surrounding Kilimanjaro, and not global warming, might be the strongest human influence on glacial recession. "Clearing for agriculture and forest fires—often caused by honey collectors trying to smoke bees out of their hives—have greatly reduced the surrounding forests," he says. The loss of foliage causes less moisture to be pumped into the atmosphere, leading to reduced cloud cover and precipitation and increased solar radiation and glacial evaporation.>

Here's more evidence that the melting has little to do with warming:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000EA156-1C32-1DAF-94E2809EC5880108

<According to a report published today in the journal Science, between 11,000 and 4,000 years ago, the region was generally warmer and wetter than it is today but experienced three major droughts in that time period.>

If warming was the culprit, there wouldn't be any 11,000 year old ice up there, only 4000.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Whew!

It's only deforestation. I was worried for a minute.

[vonSchloegel]

22. It's a lot easier

To plant trees in Tanzania, than to stop using carbon based fuels.

[MGKrebs]

24. Hey, I like that logic!

Find the easiest solution to a problem, and then modify the problem to fit!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Casual_Observer]

13. Oh Brother.

[NickB79]

16. Of course! That explains the melting permafrost too!

Someone just cut down all the trees on the Canadian tundra.

Oh, wait a minute, there are no trees on the tundra. Hmmmm......

[Taverner]

71. Rush actually said something that stupid once

Talking about more trees in the tundra...etc

[PaulaFarrell]

17. You appear to be very selective in your quotes

From the Sientific American article:

"the scientists suspect that Kilimanjaro's ice cover could disappear by 2020 if current climate conditions persist"

From the Nat Geograhic:

"The warming increases humidity, and as the air gets more moist, it hinders evaporation," Hastenrath explained. "The energy saved from evaporation is instead spent on melting. That might seem like a good thing—to stop evaporation of the glaciers—but it's certainly not. Melting is eight times more energy-efficient than evaporation, so now, with global warming, the glaciers are disappearing eight times faster than before."

[vonSchloegel]

21. I wouldn't want to argue with "Sience"

But the "Sientific American" article said: "current climate conditions." According to Douglas Hardy, that would mean less humidity not global warming.

[snippy]

27. According to Douglas Hardy, "Global warming plays a part . . . ."

If it is part of the problem, why should addressing it not be part of the solution?

[vonSchloegel]

33. Identifying the melting

as a sign of global warming is not only scientific ignorance, it doesn't address the real issue: The disappearing Glacier is a symptom of poverty. If we want to address the problem, we should recognize that the Kilimanjaro Glacier was destroyed by people in surrounding forests burning them down in an attempt to escape poverty. You can not treat a disease if you misinterpret the symptom; it's like giving someone baking soda to cure appendicitis.

If we really want to save the glacier, we should be planting trees, and contributing to relief agencies, not whining about SUVs.

[snippy]

36. So you do not give any credence to what Hardy says? That's odd. n/t

[vonSchloegel]

37. According to Hardy,

"forest reduction in the areas surrounding Kilimanjaro, and not global warming, might be the strongest human influence on glacial recession."

I've worked on cars a lot, and know that you should always tackle the big problems first. Fixing a dome light does absolutely nothing if you have a blown head gasket.

And according to the Science article, the region was actually warmer 11,000 years ago, and yet the glacier survived. Even if we could reverse the warming trend (which I highly doubt) it wouldn't necessarily save the glacier.

[PaulaFarrell]

29. temperature is a component of climate

no?

but in the same article Hastenrath says that the problem is more, not less, humidity contributing to the melting. So basically the experts in this article are saying conflicting things.

ps good catch on the typo!

[tom_paine]

49. Drawing attention to typos is the clearest sign of intellectual bankruptcy

You reveal more of yourself than you probably wish to, Mein Herr.

[RetroLounge]

76. So what exactly is "Sience"

and why the quotes. I've seen Freeper quote that word.

Just saying...

RL

[Robin Hood]

55. Why are some people so against the concept

of man made disasters? Are they afraid of accountability?

[vonSchloegel]

56. I think the real question is:

"Why are some people so convinced that every meteorological event is connected to global warming?"

I've cited strong scientific evidence that the Kilimanjaro glacier is not the result of global warming, and look at the reaction I'm getting. No evidence to the contrary, just a lot of anger and disparaging remarks.

[Viking12]

58. The "evidence" you've provided says that CC is in part to blame.

Numerous posters have pointed this out to you but you continue to ignore it. The evidence you link to says (paraphrase), "There are likely numerous contributing factors to the degrading glacier on Kilimanjaro including, but not limited to, Climate Change."

on edit: spelling

[Bo]

61. I also wonder the same thing....

why can't WE admit WE are responsible.

[Kool Kitty]

73. Why? Because if

people were held accountable, they might (*gasp* heaven forbid!) have to change they way they live. And we can't have that, can we?

[vonSchloegel]

74. You know,

By paying roughly 20% more for your electricity every month, you can insure that every watt you take from the grid is replaced with clean renewable energy.

https://www.greentagsusa.org/GreenTags/index.cfm

http://nys.greens.org/energy/


Are you willing to pay more for your electricity? (*gasp* heaven forbid!) When it's an issue of spending their own money, not many people are willing to bear the cost. It's a lot easier to complain about the pot, then to clean up your own kettle.

[booksenkatz]

19. Damned beekeepers! Time to boycott honey!

(Sorry, couldn't resist.;) )

[0007]

20. It appears that you are being intellectual dishonesty and also

lack transparency. Your are very very careful to only point out only one side of a devastating issue, and then accuse "Kyoto" as being emotional.

[Zorra]

25. According to the latter link you posted, "80 percent of the ice has

disappeared between 1912 and 2000."

1912 to 2000 is the time period when the most man-made industrial pollution of the environment occurred, far more than in all of human history before that time.

Also, the article states that "The researchers also found that methane levels in the core dropped dramatically in the section corresponding to approximately 8,300 years ago...."

So, apparently, the ice core on Kilimanjaro has existed for at least 8,300 years. Also, the article never states that the ice disappeared at any time over the past 11,000 years, only that there is evidence that the region was warmer and wetter, and experienced severe drought at times.

[vonSchloegel]

30. Actually,

the National Geographic article said "most scientists believe tropical glaciers began receding as early as the 1850s." Which is when Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto. So it has been shrinking steadily since the introduction of Communism. 1850 to 1990 is the time period when the most Communist takeovers occurred, far more than in all of human history before that time. (By the way, I'm not serious, just making a point about causality.)

You are right that it said nothing about the glaciers melting 11,000 years ago. But it DID say the region was "warmer" back then. So if the current temperature rise is responsible for the disappearance of the glacier, it would have never survived that 6000 year warm spell.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. 1850s? Industrial Revolution? No connection there, right?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. Right. The Arctic ice cap is melting and will be gone in ten years,...

...the Antarctic ice is melting much faster than originally thought, weather patterns are changing, warmer ocean temperatures are causing much more powerful tropical storm systems, last summer's heat wave in Europe killed 20,000 people in France, England, Belgium, and other countries....but global warming is not the cause.

Right. Whatever you say.

[vonSchloegel]

34. Help!

I'm being attacked by an army of straw men!

I actually said none of those things. Just that the Kilimanjaro example is invalid.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. So, you're saying that your "point" only applied to Mt. Kilimanjaro??....

Interesting maneuver to attempt to escape all of thos "straw men".

No straw man here, but I see that you're really desperate to find one.

[vonSchloegel]

39. That's all I said

Kilimanjaro is not an example of global warming. When the Repugs cite a similar false piece of irrelevant anecdotal evidence, (Like the increased Caribou population around the Alaskan pipeline as proof that oil drilling is good for the environment) they get mocked. I thought we belonged to the party of science and rationality?

The Antarctic ice, warmer ocean temperatures, more powerful tropical storm systems, last summer's heat wave in Europe, all have nothing to do with Mt. Kilimanjaro. They are all irrelevant to this argument. Perhaps instead, I should have claimed I was being eaten alive by red herrings.

[chlamor]

40. It's all connected-The GODS of science and rationality and

mechanistic reductionism are the real straw MEN and I do mean MEN. Science is laden with its own cultural accretions and an honest appraisal of Rational Thought would show it to be well uh er irrational. Women used to be clinically hyster-ical if they got to emotional. Science has been devouring the planet. Its acolytes are steeped in humanistic arrogance. The tale of Icarus warned us we haven't listened.

The Earth is dying-It's all connected

[vonSchloegel]

42. Uhmm, yeah, right.

Well I thought we were the party of rationality.

[truth2power]

44. "all have nothing yo do with Mt. Kilimanjaro."

It's not that Kilimanjaro is causing the other events you listed, but that it's another piece of evidence pointing to global warming.

[vonSchloegel]

46. But I wasn't disputing Global Warming

I was disputing that the loss of the Kilimanjaro Glacier has anything to do with global warming. It's a different argument entirely.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. That's your opinion,....

...such that it is.

[truth2power]

52. Not to be picky, but

Here's your statement:

"The Antarctic ice, warmer ocean temperatures, more powerful tropical storm systems, last summer's heat wave in Europe, all have nothing to do with Mt. Kilimanjaro. They are all irrelevant to this argument."

I don't see how it's a different argument. Your statement clearly says the events listed have nothing to do with Kilimanjaro. It's not that I think the events caused Kilimanjaro, or vice versa. It's that what's happening on Kilimanjaro is simply more evidence in support of global warming. It's not "a different argument entirely."

[vonSchloegel]

54. But the vanishing Kilimanjaro Glacier

Is not proof of Global Warming. I provided links to substantiate my point. You're not paying attention.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. Perhaps you should have claimed that your particular focus is much too....

...narrow and fails to take into account that the entire weather system of the world is interconnected so that rising temperatures worldwide are affecting each and every location on the earth.

But, not...you chose to whine about being attacked by "straw men" and "red herrings". That REALLY enhances your argument.

[truth2power]

43. So...it's only deforestation? But...but

doesn't deforestation contribute to global warming???

[vonSchloegel]

45. Not necessarily

Some crops are more efficient at photosynthesis than trees, so if the forest is replaced with farmland, it might lessen global warming. Forests emit a lot of global warming gasses as well. (Methane, turpentine, H2O).

But the point made by Douglas Hardy was not that the loss of surrounding forests raised the global temperature, it was they lowered the amount of local humidity. And as I have been stating repeatedly in this thread, the article published in the journal Science claimed that the atmosphere in the region was warmer 11,000 to 4,000 years ago than it is today. So if the loss of glacier was because of warming, it would not have survived during those 6,000 years.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. If the region was actually warmer 11,000....

...to 4,000 years ago than it has been for the last 4,000 years, how did the polar ice caps manage to survive along with hundreds...perhaps thousands...of glaciers worldwide? Why didn't they disappear totally during the 7,000 years that the region was supposedly warmer?

Regardless of how you respond to the above question, the photo of Mt. K with the snow and ice on the upper slopes was taken sometime during the 20th century...and now the ice and snow is just about gone. Are you really trying to state that the huge population increase worldwide coupled with an enormous rise in the production of greenhouse gases has had nothing to do with the way Mt. K looks today? And are you also saying that the reduction of the ice caps, the melting of the Alaska permafrost, the melting of glaciers worldwide, the increase in the temperature of the oceans worldwide, the decrease of forests worldwide, and many other factors too numerous to list are just coincidental happenings that have had no effect on Mt. K?

Or is it possible that you're one of those people that can never admit that they're wrong, or even that there's a possibility that you're wrong?

[vonSchloegel]

53. I'm getting pretty tired of repeating all this

You seem to have come in to the middle of the argument. I cited an article from the Scientific American, citing an article in the journal Science, where samples indicate that the region was warmer 11,000 to 4,000 years ago. So it wouldn't have affected the ice caps or any other glaciers outside of Tanzania.

Meanwhile, climatologist Douglas Hardy concurred that global warming is not solely responsible for the Kilimanjaro Glacier disappearing.
.
Finally, I'm not arguing the existence of global warming, I'm arguing that the Kilimanjaro Glacier is not a valid example of Global warming.

[lthuedk]

62. & I'm tired of your selective premises

"Meanwhile, climatologist Douglas Hardy concurred that global warming is not---solely---responsible for the Kilimanjaro Glacier disappearing." (brackets added)


I just wanted everyone to know that the disappearance of Kilimanjaro's glacier is not S_O_L_E_L_Y caused by global warming; only, therefore, partially.

So, it was deforestation AND global warming. That is not a question.

Take care,

Stephen Pitt

[muse]

51. I spoke with Doug Hardy a couple of years ago

on this issue for a project I did on Kilimanjaro - an educator's guide to an IMAX film entitled, "Kilimanjaro." His point with me was that there may be another factor other than global warming that has caused the ice cap to melt. He didn't discount that global warming may be a cause or a factor, but regular cycles of precipitation may be the simple cause (that is what he was discussing then, not deforestation - that didn't come up.)

I think the point is that it is good science - crucial to science (actually what science IS) - to investigate all possibilities.

There are similar ice cap meltings on mountains in South America, by the way, which Doug and others are also investigating. They do interesting work on getting ice cores to save and work on for research projects. The history of the ice accumulating, melting, receding, etc. can be investigated using the ice cores.

[Demonaut]

9. I agree, that crater looks big enough to keep most debunkers

heads nicely buried

[pfitz59]

11. Winter with no winter here in Seattle

Governor already declaring drought emergency. (In PACNORWEST!) Once-in-a-lifetime desert bloom in Death Valley! Weird shit happenin!

[freeplessinseattle]

12. It is weird, tulips are more than a month early, it's bizarre (nt)

[pfitz59]

14. Forest is verrrry dry!

Fire season worries have started. I live on a green belt. Forest across the street is a tinder box. Unless something radical happens we're in for interesting times.

[freeplessinseattle]

15. yeah, it feels wrong to enjoy the weather, it's not a blessing (nt)

[piece sine]

18. that's taking liberal guilt waaaaay too far!

smile! the sun is shining!

[freeplessinseattle]

26. ach, guilt is just hereditary in my case:) but if we knew it was global

warming, wouldn't it feel a little strange "celebrating"?

[Blue Belle]

28. No rain = Draught... But in March??

I live on the Oregon Coast and we haven't seen any rain for the Month of March. For those of you who don't find that at all odd... our rivers are usually pushing flood stage at this time of year. I have a very uneasy feeling about this...

:scared:

[redqueen]

57. We knew this was happening...

but seeing it... God... sometimes it seems so hopeless.

[Ignoramus]

59. It reminds me of this story about the north pole from 2000

http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/media_coverage/SanDiegoUnionTribune/Ice-has-melted-at-north-pole-site/Ice-has-melted-at-north-pole-site.shtml

I wish there were a photo of the open water. It would make a great ad showing the north pole in the past and the north pole on that day.

I also saw a photo of the arctic with an outline of where the ice used to be 20 years ago, but I don't know where that is.

Images like that would really stop people in their tracks I would think.

[OTownGuy]

60. Fundies Response

HA! I would LOVE to see what those psychos say w/ an ACUAL VISUAL. Id love to see what reactions u guys have showing them this.

[vonSchloegel]

63. Here's why you can't find it:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0CE0DE1F31F93AA1575BC0A9669C8B63

METROPOLITAN DESK
New York Times
Corrections
Published: August 29, 2000, Tuesday
A front-page article on Aug. 19 and a brief report on Aug. 20 in The Week in Review about the sighting of open water at the North Pole misstated the normal conditions of the sea ice there. A clear spot has probably opened at the pole before, scientists say, because about 10 percent of the Arctic Ocean is clear of ice in a typical summer.

The reports also referred incompletely to the link between the open water and global warming. The lack of ice at the pole is not necessarily related to global warming. New studies of the polar icepack and its recent changes are reported today in Science Times on Page F3.

[Ignoramus]

68. hmm

That is a rather oddly vague retraction. "Scientists say...". I see the article they refer to and the abstract is also bizarrely unsubstantial:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00A12FC35550C7A8EDDA10894D8404482&incamp=archive:search

ABSTRACT - Recent reports of open water from melting ice at North Pole have spurred climatologists and other scientists to study more closely satellite imagery and other observations of northern sea ice, past and present; data reveal evidence that on average Arctic temperatures in winter have risen 11 degrees over past 30 years and were warmest in four centuries in late 20th century; show ice pack over entire Arctic Ocean has been shrinking in area and thickness in recent decades; climatologists say open water at pole is not new and may not be result of global warming; photos (M)

So, it's hottest now and the ice is melting more now, but not necessarily because of the heat...

I'm curious, but I'm also opposed to paying $3 to read an article.

[vonSchloegel]

69. It's here

http://users.qldnet.com.au/~carls/ezines/ezine012.htm

"The fact of having no ice at the pole is not so stunning," said Dr. Claire L. Parkinson, a climatologist at the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. "But the report said the ship encountered an unusual amount of open water all the way up. That is reason for concern."
Dr. Parkinson said that her examination of satellite data since the 1970's revealed that the Arctic ice cover had been retreating on an average of one-quarter of a percent a year. But there are fluctuations up and down; the retreat was striking in the 1980's, then rebounded somewhat in the 90's. "So we are very reluctant," she said, "to make projections into the future" based on only two or three decades of observations.

[Ignoramus]

70. allright well

I'll concede that just the image of open water at the pole would not be usable as proof of global warming.

It's pretty frustrating. I notice a contrarian compulsion in most scholars that I've ever chatted with. They seem to aggressively contradict generalities, but then their explanation is less severe than what their initial contradiction was. I tend to doubt the words of the department of transportation guy.

I think it should be possible to make a case that would be comprehensible to people, rather than just being this scientist says this and that scientist says that. Something like this issue of open water at the pole, but apparently not this issue in particular.

[leesa]

64. This picture just breaks my heart! No more "Snows of Kilimanjaro"

What a tragedy...and really scarey. It's happening fast while our greedy government just keeps grabbing the cash.

[barbaraann]

65. There's a beautiful French song, "Le Neige de Kilamanjaro"

I listened to it a million times when I was a teenager.

[slor]

75. I want to hear it...

but I searched for it, and cannot find it. Any idea who the artist is?

[okoboji]

67. has a team

been sent to investigate if they can drill for oil up there? before the snow returns?

[struggle4progress]

72. kick