Ralph Nader wants Schiavo to Live

[ProudToBeLiberal]

Mods, the actual title from the press release is LONG. I'll post it in the message. Because it's a press release, I'll post all of it.
____________________________________________________________________
Consumer Advocate Ralph Nader, Author Wesley Smith call Upon Florida Courts, Gov. Bush and Concerned Citizens to Take any Legal Action Available to let Schiavo Live

3/24/2005 6:48:00 PM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: National Desk

Contact: Ralph Nader, 202-387-8034; Wesley Smith, 510-886-8609

WASHINGTON, March 24 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Consumer Advocate Ralph Nader and Wesley J. Smith, author of the award winning book "Culture of Death: The Assault on Medical Ethics in America" call upon the Florida Courts, Governor Jeb Bush and concerned citizens to take any legal action available to let Terri Schiavo live.

"A profound injustice is being inflicted on Terri Schiavo," Nader and Smith asserted today. "Worse, this slow death by dehydration is being imposed upon her under the color of law, in proceedings in which every benefit of the doubt-and there are many doubts in this case-has been given to her death, rather than her continued life."

Among the many injustices in this case, Nader and Smith point to the following:

The courts not only are refusing her tube feeding, but have ordered that no attempts be made to provide her water or food by mouth. Terri swallows her own saliva. Spoon feeding is not medical treatment. "This outrageous order proves that the courts are not merely permitting medical treatment to be withheld, it has ordered her to be made dead," Nader and Smith assert.

The medical and rehabilitation experts are split on whether Terri is in a persistent vegetative state or whether Terri can be improved with therapy. There is only one way to know for sure- permit the therapy. That is the only way to resolve all doubts.

The court is imposing process over justice. After the first trial in this case, much evidence has been produced that should allow for a new trial-which was the point of the hasty federal legislation. If this were a death penalty case, this evidence would demand reconsideration. Yet, an innocent disabled woman is receiving less justice.

The federal and state governments are spending billions on what we are told will become miracle medical cures for people with all sorts of degenerative conditions, including brain damage. If this is so, why not permit Terri's parents and siblings who want to care for her do so in the hope that such cures are discovered?

Benefits of doubts should be given to life, not hastened death. This case is rife with doubt. Justice demands that Terri be permitted to live.

link...
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=44858

[LincolnMcGrath]

1. Please go away Ralph.

[Morose]

90. Ralphie is washed up and beyond

yesterday's news. He's become so desperate to get his name in the news that I fear he'll jump on any bandwagon. There are issues to be dicussed in this case...none of them, however, are raised by Nader, or advanced by his senile opinion.

Just go away already Ralph.

[saigon68]

110. He and Regan (Ronald) can go talk about this senile opinion for hours

OOPS Rayguns DEAD.

[merh]

2. Why would he bother getting involved in this?

Can't he just leave them to their own demise? :shrug:

.

[Califooyah Operative]

26. he's been doing crossfire - he sorta has to deal with it like everyone els

e - not that I agree with his position.

[TheWraith]

106. If Ralph cares so much about Schiavo, lets send him with her. NT.

[sonicx]

3. so much bullshit, i'm not gonna bother

[ncteechur]

4. I don't give a rat's ass what Ralph Nader thinks or doesn't think.

That SOB has squandered any clout and respect he once had. He is a moronic has-been who fucked this country twice without the decency of a reach-around.

Thanks Ralph but shut your stupid pie hole.

[dad]

53. If you do not give a rat

then why did you read the article and post a response on this forum?
Those of us who are interested in Ralph's position will read the article.
I don't give a rat's ass about what YOU think, however.

[Isere]

67. Couldn't have said it

better!

Ralph, no one is listening. You squandered your credibility in 2000 and have done jacksh*t to regain it.

[ima_sinnic]

5. hey Ralph, guess what?

IT'S NONE OF YOUR DAMNED BUSINESS!
sheesh! :wtf:
still jumping on bandwagons, I see. :eyes:

[saracat]

6. I think Ralph should just shut up. He really does love to stab everyone

in the back every chance he gets, doesn't he? He really seems to be toadying up to the fundies! I hope the greens catch this and see him for what he really is, a bitter opportunistic flak!

[Dr Fate]

7. I respect his opinion like I would any individual- but really, who cares?

Why should I care what he thinks about this issue? His expertise is in consumer advocacy, environmentalism, etc.

[Hissyspit]

8. Thanks for getting Bush 'elected,' Ralph. You nut.

Thus: 100,000 dead in Iraq. 9/11 occurs. Environmental Laws trashed. Etc.

[Nite Owl]

9. Where has he been since November?

It would have been nice to have him speaking up for the bankrupcy bill and all the other stuff they have been passing and he was in hiding. Now seems like a strange time for an appearance.

[eek]

73. Bingo! It bugs me that Nader doen't seem to

work toward reform, build grassroots party stuff, speak out, lobby unless it is during his own campaigns.

It made me so sad when he showed up to run again last time.
I felt that, had he been sincere, he'd have been busting his hump the previous four years. He had joe-mentum. Why wasn't he railing against the tax cuts, foreign policy, 9-11 everything, enron, worldcomm, 2-party bull, the friggin war?

It fells like it is all about Him rather than a sincere desire to create a better country.
Dangit Ralph, ya broke my heart.

"Yoooouuu left me*, just when i* needed it most..!"
(Randy Vanwarmer)

*us, *we

[elshiva]

10. Make me want to Ralph.

[LisaL]

11. Doesn't this part of it bother anyone here-

"The courts not only are refusing her tube feeding, but have ordered that no attempts be made to provide her water or food by mouth. Terri swallows her own saliva. Spoon feeding is not medical treatment. "This outrageous order proves that the courts are not merely permitting medical treatment to be withheld, it has ordered her to be made dead," Nader and Smith assert."
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Clarkie1]

21. It would if it wasn't totally BS.

She cannot swallow anything. Nader has gone off the deep end...dementia, perhaps?

[Jamastiene]

25. It's all in the grammar or

wording or "spin". Take your pick. I have been thinking about a living will and have been trying to find out if a person can request not to be starved to death. I would have a problem with that unless they gave me pain medication. Who knows what someone is feeling? I have a severe dislike, or should I say "mistrust" when it comes to many in the medical field. They will swear up and down that you will experience "mild discomfort" before performing a procedure. Meanwhile, you would consider smashing your own hand with a hammer if the pain from whatever they are doing to you would go away. And don't even get me started on the field of psychology and how brutal their "ethics" really seem to be to me. I have to honestly say, I feel mixed on this Shiavo issue now that I have been hearing about it forever and a day.

I already know that my family would be split if I was in that state. I guess it's time I start looking into a living will and the other kind of will before anything happens to me. I used to feel invincible, but that was in regards to death. Whoever said there are worse things that death was right. Getting maimed in some way and being forced to live would be worse than any horror movie the master story tellers could dream up.

[Pinboy]

31. It's all in the what?

If it's all in the grammar, they have another problem:

"This outrageous order proves that the courts are not merely permitting medical treatment to be withheld, it has ordered her to be made dead," Nader and Smith assert.

Whoever wrote that quote ought to have HIS feeding tube removed.

[zalinda]

51. My ex-mother-in-law requested no heroic measures

in her living will, which meant no feeding tubes. She had a stroke, but was aware, and could barely speak. If she was in pain, believe me, she would have stopped the procedure. Withholding food and water is as humane as the law will allow in 49 states.

zalinda

[LiberalFighter]

69. You need to check online to see what your state provides...

then from available options determine the best one.

You may have other options besides just a living will. You could have a durable power of attorney or other health related option to have your wishes followed.

Personally, I believe that an option requiring a spouse/friend/SO/other on the advisement of a 2 or 3 doctor panel. If they concur or majority agree that the prognosis is medically untreatable or other term that can be defined without a court determination then pull the plug.

As for pain. That can be included in the determination. If you don't want to suffer pain for a long time then stipulate that you want the plug pulled only if the pain will last a day, a week, a month. Whatever time you want as long as it will be shorter than what you might be going through.

Getting maimed would depend on the degree of injury and what you can still accomplish that you want to accomplish while living. Getting maimed does not mean living in pain all the time either.

[seventythree]

27. Yes, I have been bothered by that -- the swallowing

of saliva is alleged in the court papers filed by the parents. I felt all along that if she could take water, it should be allowed, same with food. The problem is, as I see it, that even if she can swallow her own saliva, which appears to be evident by the fact that she never appears to be drooling, if the swallowing reflex is impaired -- 1.) she can aspirate -- choking is a worse death and 2) the little food or water she might be able to get down would delay the inevitable and be just a protracted death by starvation/dehydration. (remember, however, that the pictures we have seen are years old and she could have deteriorated in the swallowing ability)
As for the rest of Nadar's press release -- it's horse hockey -- you can't regrow a brain.

[LisaL]

33. That's why the judge could have ordered a swallow test done.

He didn't. He ordered removal of hydration and nutrition, without testing her to see if she can swallow. She swallows her own saliva just fine, she doesn't suffocate and she doesn't drool. Her last swallow test was done years ago. Yet, this judge orders her hydration and nutrition removed. I don't understand why they wouldn't even give her this chance.

[Griffy]

80. More speculation presented as fact!

"She swallows her own saliva just fine".. you don't know that! Its like a million armchair doctors.. like Frist making assertions from just watching video! If you just look at the brain scans.. you'd say its from a dead human, so little viable tissue left! The family didn't have disputes until the money was awarded to Terri and Micheal. Try to see the whole story.. Terri is dead.. she is being used by everyone but the husband... he just wants to honor her wishes. He went to nursing school to take better care of her. He was offered a million dollars to sign over custody.. he did not. Her mind is gone.. let her body go!

Personally, I wish they would just end her life, this starvation thing is only being done cause we cant legal kill people (even if they are suffering and ask for it), except for the poor in jail!

[seventythree]

84. totally understand your last statement,

but saying normal ingestion will not be allowed, is wrong. Now, she can either swallow or she can't -- disputed and an area for court decision -- but you don't disallow, you don't ban, any attempt at normal ingestion. And my opinion is not about Terri, its about cases yet to come where a misdiagnosis could take place, particularly because feeding tubes are often inserted for convenience -- otherwise, giving them enough sustenance would be hand feeding all day as opposed to a 20 minute procedure.

[Griffy]

104. the point is to stop the heart.. the brain is gone...

"Now, she can either swallow or she can't " .. hmm.. black and white world.. sorry.. but people in comas have swallow relaxes and cant consume orally. As I said.. she should be put to death peacefully... America cant handle that kind of talk.. but you know we all die, so its only a matter of when and how. So, If my brain is fried, don't keep my body alive... if anyone wants to instruct their loved ones too keep them alive at all costs, go ahead... but years of debate has shown that she wouldn't want this... would you?

The odds of a mistake here are almost none... even the best diagnoses from the parents quack doctor would still make me chose death. Is anyone disputing the massive amount of spinal fluid where her brain is? No.. they just make wild claims... like snake oil salesmen... notice he recommends his therapy :mad:

1 more point.. this case is a clear example of the stream of lies the propaganda machine spews, creating doubt, random accusations of the husband and Terri speaks and or and or..see the lies, its all in their playbook... educate yourself!

[seventythree]

82. As you have seen in other posts,

the guardian in 2002 or 3 said that she could not swallow -- I don't know when those tests were done, but once again, there is a disagreement that the court must decide. I also think we may be having a problem with understanding the meaning of swallow -- saliva swallowing may actually not indicate that the swallow reflex is operating properly. As I am not a doc, I just don't know. My feeling is that removing a feeding tube is one thing -- saying do not give hydration/sustenance in any form, is quite another. I am not looking just at Terri's case, but others which could arise where the diagnosis could be in error. If we say artificial sustenance/hydration is life support, that's one thing, but to say normal ingestion cannot be allowed? I can't go along with that.

[msanthrope]

105. Lizzy, if you would bother to actually read the court papers

they detail the swallowing tests done. www.abstractappeal.com

Also, saliva swallowing is a brain stem reflex. Chewing and swallowing with regards to nutrition is a cortical brain function. Terri's cortex is pretty much gone.....

DO you realize how many end-stage Alzheimer's patients die from aspiration pnuemonia? They can't swallow their food properly....

[barb162]

112. that judge is worse than incompetent and unethical. He's worse

than a disgrace.

[Azathoth]

32. According to the papers, they've already performed swallowing tests

Several of them in the first couple years after Terri's accident. They were all negative. Every time we see Terri, she is being kept in a semi-sitting-up position. It's more than likely that the small amount of saliva she produces is simply running down the back of her throat, without any strong swallowing reflex (the way saliva and mucus from our sinuses routinely runs down our throats when we are asleep). That's different from having a quantity of water in her mouth, which she would have to either swallow or aspirate.

The bottom line is that the doctors have already gone over this issue repeatedly. They stopped performing continual tests years ago because her condition simply has not improved.

[LisaL]

34. She had those tests years ago.

Why not test her again? Unlike MRIs and PET scans, this would be very simple and wouldn't cost much.

[Azathoth]

38. Because I think the court began to see it as nothing but a delay tactic

Nearly every respectable neurologist (who isn't a fundie) agrees that Terri isn't getting better, that she can't eat or swallow, and that she is in a persistent vegetative state, and the court has relied on this. The Schindlers made it very clear during the court proceedings that they would do anything in their power to keep Terri alive, regardless of her wishes or medical circumstances. I think the court eventually began to see the demanding for new tests and new therapy as nothing more than a delay tactic. Terri had continuous therapy/tests for 4-5 years before the doctors finally convinced her husband that there was no hope. She would have been taken off the feeding tube then if the Schindlers hadn't tied the case up in court for years. Now, after keeping the case in court all this time, the Schindlers' new fall-back argument is that all the tests and therapy should be re-performed. The judge realized that if he were to disregard the testimony of the doctors and order new tests at this late date, he would be giving the Schindlers an opening and they would then dispute/litigate the results of the tests and try to keep the case in court for several more years, and the cycle would repeat endlessly.

[leesa]

61. Why would they have improved? They also pose the risk of aspiration.

This is all so stupid and pointless.

[zalinda]

48. If she were allowed to "eat" and have water

and could actually swallow, her death would taken even longer to happen. And she will die, she would never be able to take in enough nourishment to keep her body alive. Either way, she is going to die, slow or slower.

zalinda

[LiberalFighter]

66. Haven't you been following the facts?

If they try to spoon feed her she WILL die from choking. If the woman had succeeded in getting past police into the hospice to give her water Terri would had drowned/suffocated. And that woman should be charged with attempted murder.

There is a point when artificial means used to sustain the body should no longer be consider proper. And that has been reached a long time ago. Do you want the artificial means to be used indefinitely? Another 10 years? 25 years? 50 years? 1000 years? With the hope that she will recover?

The part that bothers me the most about Nader's statement is that he doesn't know what he is talking about. He is making outrageous statements without considering the facts and reality.

[Laurab]

107. It does bother me

but really, it shouldn't. The reason it shouldn't is It's None of My Damn Business. The way that is written, yes, I think it would bother any human being. Is it true? Who knows? All I know is that this is a personal family matter, and I should have NO knowledge of it at all. The only reason I DO have knowledge of it is that the repukes tried to make a political issue out of it. It should not be a political issue.

The hypocritical assholes just let someone die the same way in Texas even though the family agreed, and all WANTED him to be kept alive. Apparently that happens a lot in Texas if there's no money available. THAT bothers me more.

Neither is really a political issue, but I'd rather see them make one out of the person who died because of GW's order that life support could be terminated because the money ran out.

I'm a human being, and the way that is worded, it does bother me. But, as I said, it's really none of my damn business, or anybody elses either, unless they are directly involved.

[barb162]

111. The court didn't follow the recommendation of the last guardian

about swallow tests, seeing more neurologists, etc. Ralph is right. Judge Greer should be thrown off the bench.

[CoffeeCat]

12. Is Ralph stumping for fundie votes...

...since he alienated so many Dems?

[gtar100]

13. The only persons who have an opinion that counts are

Michael Shiavo and family. End of story. Everyone else should butt out.

[Voltaire99]

14. What is the most humane death?

The arguments for allowing natural death to occur protect the state or its agents from administering euthanasia directly. But while allowing a natural death, this Spartan course may not be the most humane.

Even a vegetative host will find starvation and dehydration physically difficult, to say the least. What about using painkilling or mood altering drugs as well? Put her on a heroin drip, and then let nature do its work.

[Jamastiene]

23. I've been thinking about that.

If they have something that would prevent her from suffering, then by all means, they should use it. I'm still wondering about something else. From the videos they show, it looks like she can blink her eyes. If that's the case, then they could ask her what she wants? I mean not by hearsay like some reporters have claimed. I mean can't they ask her and prove it. I'm really mixed on this issue. I think it's the idea of starving to death that is making me wonder what my options would be in that situation. Does anyone know of a cheap way to make a living will? I wouldn't want to be in a vegetative state. It seems like it would be tortue.

It's odd that Nader would side with the repugs on this. Since when do repugs care about people who have already been born anyhow? My bet is that they don't. They just act like flies to shit on any issue like this and stand there with their holier than thou pompous attitude. Meanwhile, they've changed tons of rules mid-game to keep a crook like Tom Delay form facing possible charges for corruption. And they wonder why I get so furious with them. :mad:

[seventythree]

28. google living wills and you

will find down loadable forms for your state. Don't assume that your state allows nourishment/hydration removal as an extraordinary procedure falling under the rubric of life support. Feel free to more expressly state your wishes if the form leaves you doubting. Follow witness and notarization requirements.

[MadisonProgressive]

58. She can't blink on command - she's brain dead!

[Love Bug]

101. I can't imagine they aren't offering palliative care

Just based on my experience they do offer pain meds at this stage.
When my mother got to her late-stage Alzheimer's the doctor asked us if we wanted to use a feeding tube when she got to the point where she couldn't swallow anymore. We discussed this and decided there would be no point of prolonging her life since there was no cure, but only more deterioration. We were told they would not put her on an IV because when the body starts to shut down, it is no longer able to handle the extra fluids -- in fact it would cause her pain.

Before my mother got to the stage where she "forgot" how to swallow, she decided to refuse all food and drink -- anytime anyone would try to feed her or give her liquids, she would clamp her jaw and lips shut just like a baby who refuses her strained peas. After several days of this we took it to mean she had decided on her own it was time. So we respected her wished and waited for her end. The doctors and nurses monitored her closely and said they were prepared to give her morphine if she showed any signs of pain. As far as I know, this was not necessary. It took about two weeks for her to die. She did not starve to death -- a person will die from dehydration long before they will starve. She died peacefully in my sister's arms.

Terri Schaivo is in hospice -- they will do what it takes to make her end as comfortable as possible -- that is their mission.

[Voltaire99]

119. Thanks

...for your informed and moving comment.

[Azathoth]

40. I think they put her on morphine

Not sure where I heard that though, so I could be wrong.

[chickenscratching]

56. i think

nurses administer a bit o' morphine occasionally to help ease pain. but honestly, can't you just give her a lethal dose and leave her in euphoria?

[BrklynLiberal]

15. I think he takes whatever position will get him the most publicity.

[DaveinMD]

16. makes sense

Nader is really a Republican. He did get Shrub elected.

[latteromden]

17. Oh, that's it. I was mad after he deserted the Green Party. Now I just

give up on giving the guy second chances. :shrug:

[Robert Oak]

18. long live Ralph Nader

I watched him on scream fest cross fire and I'm sorry he really
comes out and calls a spade a spade.

He helps draw attention to the massive world wide control of the nation states by multinational corporations...which sure isn't being
spoken by the democratic party.

On this particular issue, I plain think he's speaking his mind.

His efforts on global trade, on corporate corruption and so many other issues have been a god send.

Just because he was a horses ass in 2000 doesn't negate all of the
incredible work he has done.

and on this issue, it personally bothers me...I personally
would not want a spouse, who is now with someone else, making
my decisions for me and there is no written living will and the family
is so adament. Anyway, it certainly is not a black and white issue,
just like the life state the woman is in and if Nader speaks his
mind, I don't have a problem with it at all.

[Lindacooks]

19. Yes, what happened in 2000 did negate all of the 'good' he's done.

With the environment trashed, and more to come, with the deficit so huge we'll most probably never get it under control, with corporations run amok, and with the attacks on the poor and middle class, denying them health care, decent housing, and even food, Nader helped Bush* destroy America.

And the decision to remove the feeding tube was made by the COURTS, who decided, after years and years and years of testimony, doctor's affidavits, and 30,000 documents, that it WAS TERRI'S DECISION THAT SHE NOT BE KEPT ALIVE BY ARTIFICIAL MEANS.

[Jamastiene]

24. You DO make a good point.

I just wonder why he would side with "them" on anything. With Nader, you really have a what you see is what you get situation. He's liable to fall anywhere on the political spectrum on any given issue. He has done good things in the past, but he has been awful quiet lately. I've wondered why.

[Robert Oak]

30. because not all things "them" say are wrong

It's more we have the corporate party, which also has democratic
members and a few acting on their own set of principles and ideals.

I find myself wanting to puke at Pat Buchanan normally, yet for example, on many economic issues, I agree with him and he's dead on...
and he's also come out raging against Bush and the Republicans on
many economic issues...

yet on social issues forget it.

What bothers me in general, is it's not "us versus them" it's corporate corruption and insane positions on issues that hurt the general public (like pro lifers no birth control, no abortion insane stance) or "free trade" spewed at nausuem by purchased congress members on both sides of the isle.

[woosh]

50. Ralph is on his own side.

[MadisonProgressive]

59. It's not a black and white issue - that's why we have the courts

[CanSocDem]

98. Damn Right!!

And like I said I said in another thread, turns out he was right about the voting habits of so called Democrats....

But I'm sorry he had to get involved in this issue because it forces me to respectfully disagree. Even though there are important consumer-rights issues, I keep thinking the problem is a deep-seated religious confusion that can't deal with 'death'.

It is another example of why the public is better served controlling their own health system. Fewer objectives, for one thing....
.
.
.

[Virginian]

20. Her Guardian Ad Litem said this about swallowing tests and therapy:

This came from another DU thread earlier today.

5) Clinical records show that Mrs. Schiavo was unresponsive to neurological and swallowing tests despite intensive physical therapy.

7) Mr. Schiavo takes his wife to California for experimental therapy and returns in January of 1991.

8) Mrs. Schiavo receives extensive "aggressive" therapy into 1994.

The Schindlers expressed the "disturbing" desire to keep Terri Schiavo alive "at any and all costs" including "gruesome" scenarios where diabetes required the amputation of all of her limbs. The Schindlers then said that even if their daughter had told them of her desire not to be kept alive in this state, they would not honor her wishes.

Evidence regarding the persistent vegetative state consisted of highly credible medical testimony and documentation reflecting both early and recently performed neurological examinations and a case history that included early swallowing studies conducted multiple times nearly ten years ago.

Three, independent sets of swallowing tests were performed early in Theresa’s medical treatment: 1991, 1992 and 1993. Each of these determined that Theresa was not able to swallow without risk of aspiration (and consequent infection).

Eating and drinking are not unconscious processes. Therefore, Theresa’s neurological status is directly linked to her ability to swallow.

32) CT Scans showed that Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex is "principally liquid". Mrs. Schiavo's actions are reflexive rather than cognitive actions.

[JI7]

22. disability rights

this might be a case where he sees it as a disability rights issue. Nader had a stroke some years ago so it might be connected to that.

there are some on the left who are siding with the Schindler parents on this because they view it in liberal terms. that's why some women's rights groups, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton etc have come out and said she should be kept on the tube.

you will even see some on DU with similar views.

[Pithlet]

29. They aren't viewing it in liberal terms.

I can't think of a single liberal or progressive value that allows for overriding a personal medical decision. Left or Right, no one has the right to butt in and override Terri's decision, a decision that was backed in court multiple times. No one has the right to force medical procedures or care on anyone. I've yet to see a single argument for keeping Terri on life support against her wishes that was based on any facts, here at DU or elsewhere.

[Bleacher Creature]

35. Between Ralph and Pat Boone . .

I'm not sure who's opinion I care less about.

[Pinboy]

36. Apt comment . . .

Throw in Patricia Heaton and it's a real horse race!

[Pachamama]

37. I want Ralph Nader to die....

well, okay, not die, but I want him to go away....

I saw him on "Crossfire" and he was saying this to some bimbo from the National Right to Life Center and saying how even though he represents the left (sorry Ralph, you don't represent me) that he agrees with this bimbo that Terri should live and that Michael Schiavo should give up his guardianship to the parents....WTF Ralph? I thought you were an attorney....

Ralph is so far gone, he might as well be in a "Persistent Vegetative State"...only difference is that he can't shut up.....

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bark Bark Bark]

41. Who's The DINO Now?

Nader = Liebermann Lite

Sure, he talks the talk, but in the end, he throws the game to the other team. How is that progressive?

[sportndandy]

42. Liberal's are sheep too.

Ralph Nader is a true credit to this nation, and he never fails to raise good points and to reframe debates. If I agree with him or not, he is one american who I will never dismiss out of hand.

The Democrats who blame 2000 on Nader have forgotten that Bush stole the election and Gore handled it poorly. I am frustrated by the "liberals" who knee-jerk against Nader over what Bush and his people did. If Nader had not run, Bush would have stolen the election anyway.

[onehandle]

43. "Bush and Gore are exactly the same"

Bush may have stolen it anyway, but Nader's credibility was lost that year.

[GrouchierThanThou]

44. Terri will be his next running mate nt

[BiggJawn]

45. Ralph, have a big, steaming cuppa STFU.

If I want to hear noise from an asshole, I'll FART, OK, Ralfie?

BTW, how's your secret stock portfolio that you hide from your supporters so you can claim to be as poverty-stricken as them doing in the current economy?

[FourStarDemocrat]

46. Ralphie also wants guardianship to be transfered to the parents.

I saw him on Crossfire the other day, Wednesday, when he made this statement. He's supposed to be representing the left on crossfire, but he had more to say in common with the attorney for the nat.' right to life comittee than with Eleanor Holmes Norton, who was seated next to him.

And I agree with what others said on this thread, that where was he when Congress pushed through the (moral) Bankruptcy Bill last month? Or the allowance of drilling in ANWR? Has he spoken against the current push to piratize social security?? This man is NOTHING but a right-wing shill. It's sad because I highly admired his consumer advocacy work decades ago, but unfortunately he is not the person he once was.

[RetroLounge]

47. Is there any Doubt Ralph is a Republican now?

Fuck you Ralph, and fuck the asshats who voted for you.

I hope they see what you did...

RL

[woosh]

49. I think he's presented an interesting argument.

I'm not sure I agree, but I respect his right to take position, and also present an argument that is unconventional.

[Catt03]

52. ....

...

[plasticsundance]

54. What is so compelling about what Nader said?

If he follows the laws of a true empiricist, he should stop grand standing. How is it logical, let alone possible, because of what Nader may have done in the past now qualifies him to refute the expert testimony of so many doctors and judges? Self righteousness and false piety will only carry you so far. He was the only candidate that would not release records on his investments in 2000, and defended his position with self-righteous bullshit.

Nader is a megalomaniac, and that makes him dangerous. He's a radical that does not encompass or represent the mandates of this country. I suggest anyone that thinks otherwise read what Gloria Steinman had to say about Nader's lack of a true progressive platform. No matter what kind of a progressive someone might think Nader is, he's just another second rate dictator glorifying in his own perceived piety. Just as with the fundies, he has no respect for the rule of law, except his rule of law.

The lack of his emotional intelligence came apparent when interviewed on democracynow.org about why Michael Moore would not support him. Nader's responses were so undignified and petty for someone aspiring to be a political leader.

Someone really needs to take Nader to task. He is not on the side of the people, but use the causes of the people to exercise his own delusional self-importance.

[hector459]

55. Anyone who want Terri to live MUST be AGAINST the death penalty.

Otherwise, they are a bunch of hypocrites.

[Politicub]

57. Ralph, please STFU

No one cares what you think. You know what they say about opinions and assholes...

[leesa]

60. When did Ralph become so stupid? Let's spoon feed her to death

She can't swallow you goon.

[messiah]

62. I'm starting to hate religion!

[against all enemies]

63. She may be the last person breathing that doesn't hate that asshole.

And I used to be a huge fan. I guess whores come in all kinds of packages.

[Plaid Adder]

64. Is he auditioning to replace Dennis Miller?

Seriously. Now that the left has essentially fired him, how long before he becomes an oddball right-wing pundit?

Fuckin' yeesh, man,

The Plaid Adder

[Hobarticus]

65. Dennis Miller was amusing at one point, though...

Ralph's about as fun as a funeral director.

[Plaid Adder]

68. Wow, that's a whole lotta bullshit in one place, Tex.

Just for fun:

Among the many injustices in this case, Nader and Smith point to the following:

The courts not only are refusing her tube feeding, but have ordered that no attempts be made to provide her water or food by mouth. Terri swallows her own saliva. Spoon feeding is not medical treatment. "This outrageous order proves that the courts are not merely permitting medical treatment to be withheld, it has ordered her to be made dead," Nader and Smith assert.

OK, Ralph, read the Guardian Ad Litum report about the swallowing tests, willya? In 15 years she's never passed a swallowing test. Feeding her by mouth is going to "make her dead" just as surely as not feeding her will.

The medical and rehabilitation experts are split on whether Terri is in a persistent vegetative state or whether Terri can be improved with therapy.

Yes, "split" as in the qualified doctors who have actually been treating her for the past 15 years agree that Terri can't be improved, and the doctors who have been dragged in by the religious right to look at her parents' edited videotapes don't.

There is only one way to know for sure- permit the therapy. That is the only way to resolve all doubts.

Well, therapy has been 'permitted' for the past 15 years and no luck so far. How long do you figure they have to keep trying to rehabilitate her before they give up? 30 years? 45?

Hey, has it occurred to anyone else that the possibility of Terri's miraculous recovery is kind of like Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction? Any rational assessment will tell you it's nonexistent, but we're still going to war over it anyway because YOU CAN'T PROVE IT'S NOT THERE!

ARgh,

The Plaid Adder

[Tinoire]

70. Of course he does. He's a CONSISTENT PROGRESSIVE

true to his values.

What a shock to see Nader bashing alive and well because, once again, he dares thrust our face in the stench of our hypocrisy, our shameful, appalling lack of empathy and unwillingness to stand for values over an empty knee-jerk response to Bush.

Nader gets it. Tom Harkin gets it. Jesse Jackson gets it. But there are too many whose hearts are less functioning than Terry's brain as we chant, Lord-of-the-Rings style, "pull the plug" "kill the beast".

Terry can blink. Ask her what she wants. Ask her 300 times if you must but ask her. Or is that too much in a society that has determined that her husband owns her so much that no one else's input matters and that she lives an undesirable life simply because we lack the imagination to understand that life isn't just about walking and fornicating?

Ask her and if we can't ask her because we are too afraid of her answer, we should at least have the human decency to give her a shot of morphine.

Liberals and disability rights: Why don't they 'get it'?

(snip)

"These are people who know that the system is willing to kill for money; that's what they deal with every day in their advocacy work; but it takes a discussion, it takes connecting the dots for most of them to see why someone like me, someone severely disabled, might have a problem with legalized medical killing and might see it as not so terribly compassionate or progressive."

(snip)

"Liberals say, 'we support the social programs that you depend on, that you agree with -- and because we do that, we should have your unqualified support, even when we support every 'better dead than disabled' cause that comes along.' Folks on the right say, 'Look, we're out there on the protest line in Florida; we're fighting for the lives of people like Terri Schiavo, so we should get your unqualified support, no matter how much we cut the social programs you need to function and even survive.'"

(snip)

"Liberals -- and progressives, as I'd describe myself," saysBérubé, "have lost so much ground and so much public legitimacy over the past 30 years that it's quite clear we need new ways of thinking about the public sector and the common good. People need to begin to "read liberal theories of social justice in terms of disability issues -- putting the perspectives of people with disabilities front and center in a second wave of civil rights activism."

"To really 'get' disability politics means also to be a leftist," says Blaser, "to have a radical belief in human equality globally, across gender, ethnicity, sexuality -- and disability."

===

No; It's Not About Terri Schiavo Anymore
by Mary Johnson

No; it's not about Terri Schiavo. And it hasn't been for quite awhile.
It's about us.

It's about each of us who thinks "I wouldn't want to live if I were a vegetable." It's about each one of us who thinks, as one blogger wrote, that Michael Schiavo has been "chained to a drooling shitbag for 15 years."

But it's also about those of us who are those vegetables, those drooling shitbags. Those of us who want to live but know we're a burden to our families. Those of us who fear "do not resuscitate" orders. Those of us who use ventilators, and who use feeding tubes. And those of us who can communicate with clarity only through artificial means.

(snip)

The disability rights movement I cover is made up of individuals who themselves are living lives that they may not have been able to previously imagine. Individuals who can communicate only via technology -- who, without today's computers, might very well be thought to have little or no cognitive ability. Several of these people, in fact, contribute regularly to Ragged Edge Online. There are people who have experienced aphasia. There are people with brain injuries.

To these people, the case of Terri Schiavo looks very different.

They are particularly angered by the belief that Michael Schiavo knows what Terri Schiavo wants. "We didn't know what Terri wanted," Michael Schiavo told Larry King on Friday. "But this is what we want."

This isn't about Terri Schiavo anymore.

(snip)

[w4rma]

71. Seems pretty authoritarian, not progressive, to me. (nt)

[plasticsundance]

72. I fail to see in your post ...

any empirical evidence to refute the doctors. Just more self-righteous indulgence. Look at what the majority of Americans say about the matter. They get it, because many have experienced such tragic events with family members, including myself. Keep your peity to yourself and your own life. Don't thrust it upon others.

[Tinoire]

79. Right. Just like they got slavery for generations

as the experts maintained that we damn coons were happy picking cotton all day without a care in the world because we were clothed, fed and prized like cattle.

Disgusting bull-shit. My piety has nothing to do with this. These are my convictions and they're not going to redefine themselves simply because they're not in agreement with yours. Your personal tragedy has nothing to do with Terry Schiavo's situation. You should consider keeping that to yourself and not heralding it around as if it qualifies you to determine who is Lebensunwertes Leben and who isn't.

We are one more step closer to Nazi Germany with the full support of the so-called Liberals. In 15 years, don't even dare ask "what happened".

The majority of Americans! Let me spit in disgust. First of all, it's not the majority of Americans. If you haven't noticed, the "majority" of Americans lined up behind Bush because he so cleverly plays the game and idiotic Democrats don't fail to react just as he calculated they would. What majority of Americans you are talking about? Is this the majority that fell for the babies in the incubator story? Is this the majority that still thinks the war against then entire country of Yugoslavia that created countless Terry Schiavos was a noble humanitarian intervention? Is this the majority that wilts at the very word terrorist and has no problem with billions for the Pentagon but none for health-care? Or are you talking about the majority of Democrats that thought we could run a war-supporter and fool them into thinking that he wasn't?

Pfffft on this whatever majority that you're referring to.

[gnofg]

75. Tiniore

I've with you on this. I used your posts in my argument with another DU'er. He had a poll to see if the parents were fair game. A poll!!!
This isn't any different than Bush having a poll on anything. It smacks of "I actually don't know right from wrong". I need a poll to justify myself. I have been very surprised by the lack of compassion for the parents on the forums. The RW dirtbags who are using this for their gain are a different story. As I have stated time and time again, this is a very complex issue and I would hope that we could dignify ourselves with mature discussions and not give the Peggy Noonan's of this world a site to bash.

[DireStrike]

78. Here: Myths about the Schiavo case debunked

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3341688

[Tinoire]

83. No DireStrike, they're not debunked...

Those are positions taken to support a specific point. Nowhere at DU have I seen the in-depth discussions of old where people researched and discussed, with an open mind, what they had found allowing people to get to the truth of matters anymore.

Until that happens, I won't consider that any debunking. But thank you because I did read Kelvin's thread and appreciate the research he put into it but to get to real debunking thoughtful discussion you have to go to another Leftist site, not allowed to be mentioned here, but populated by old DUers who were well-known for their thinking skills and ability to get to the truth/heart of matters.

Is this really what we've come to? For days at DU, overnight neuro experts were comparing anatomical MRIs to metabolic scans, apples to oranges, to PROVE Terry was dead and NOT ONE of the so-called experts even noticed it as DUers nodded in agreement lapping it up and making a total travesty of what discussion and debunking are about.

I do appreciate Kelvin's work but I'm afraid too many of us took at stance without examining anything just because it was the opposite of the one Bush took. Knee-jerk reactions are going to be the death of us because it's not very difficult for those Nazis to figure out that if they want A, all they have to say is B.

The disgusting thing is that either way now, Bush wins this ones because of the way we are reacting and we are too blind to see it.

Anyway, thank you and sorry for seeming so angry. I am not angry at you but I am disheartened at the lack of real thought and discussion about this as well as the effect it is having on long-time disabled DUers who do not appreciate the closemindedness with with ambulatory people deem they can determine who is Lebensunwertes Leben and who isn't.

Both sides are playing this for politics. Both sides should be ashamed.

[gnofg]

85. hear hear-n/t

[plasticsundance]

86. Are you going to give us empirical evidence of not ?

All I hear from you is hysterical rantings without offering one fact based evidence. You provide an argument of insistence, an insistence filled with straw man arguments, and one identifying an argument lacking facts and true scientific inquiry. Those siding with the parents in this case are not those that embrace science.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-asecschiavoquest23032305mar23,1,1720211.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Question: What is a "persistent vegetative state" and how is it diagnosed? Is it unusual for doctors to disagree?

Answer: People in a persistent vegetative state have lost all higher brain function, including the ability to think, experience emotions and understand the world around them. However, they continue to sleep and wake; open their eyes; breathe on the their own; and even make noises and facial expressions.

This is because their brain stems -- the portion of the brain that controls basic functions such as heartbeat and breathing -- continue to function.

Those suffering from this condition do not track objects with their eyes, blink on command or respond consistently to cues in the environment. When a patient fails tests over a period of time, doctors consider the condition "persistent."

Doctors who examine the same patient can reach different conclusions, but time is the best arbiter of diverging views, said Dr. Michael Pulley, an assistant professor of neurology at the University of Florida campus in Jacksonville.

"The way to resolve it is to see if there is any change over time," Pulley said, adding that improvements would be expected within the first weeks or months of the injury.

Terri Schiavo has been in this state for 15 years.

Your argument is based off conjuring the opinion of public officials and leaders, but they are not privy to the expertise of science. They are mere Peripatetics stroking their chins and adjusting their togas. I would have hoped the age of enlightenment and reason would have made such people obsolete.

[Tinoire]

89. Lol. What a funny post,. You just keep embracing your sound science

forgetting all about the past atrocities that were inflicted on human beings under the veil of enlightened science and thinking we are just SO evolved that we too have all the answers ok?

I have no interest in providing you with any empirical evidence. There are countless DUers who have been here long enough to know what kind of evidence I can drum up to support my views but right now I am tired of the sound science crowd whose hearts seem even deader than Terry's brain.

When do you think we'll get to an age of enough enlightenment when we'll pull the plug on the ambulatory PVS's whose hearts don't function properly? That's the age I'm waiting for- an age that will make those people obsolete.

Pfffft.

[democracyindanger]

91. Don't get sucked into it

Some folks just aren't interested in facts that don't agree with their argument.

[plasticsundance]

93. Thanks democracyindanger

You are right. Tinoire makes my point for me.

Tinoire wrote:

"I have no interest in providing you with any empirical evidence. There are countless DUers who have been here long enough to know what kind of evidence I can drum up to support my views but right now I am tired of the sound science crowd whose hearts seem even deader than Terry's brain."

With such a response like that from Tinoire, it is obviously a waste of time and also time to move on.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

120. BOTH SIDES should be ashamed! I AGREE- this is SICK

I think the points you made are entirely valid.

High time someone mentione the idea that playing this for personal or polital gain is rather immoral, considering the circumstances...

[Viking12]

99. Gotta call BS

First, Michael Schiavo was on King on Monday, not Friday. This is the actual transcript. You're reprinting falsehoods.

SCHIAVO: Larry, she's lived like this for 15 years. We have been in court for seven years. This is what Terri wanted, and this is what it's been found that Terri wanted. Just because you believe that things should err on the side of life because that's what you believe in, what about Terri? What about Terri Schiavo? What did she believe in? Don't take that away from her.

KING: Is...

FELOS: If it takes this long for a patient to reach a decision, then no one will ever have a choice to refuse medical treatment. No one should have to wait seven years to have their medical treatment choice carried out.

KING: Michael, if Terri is not in pain, then it might be put -- and I don't mean this crudely -- so what? You're not paying for it. She's not in pain. She's not harmful to anyone and no one harmful to her. So what?

SCHIAVO: Again, Larry, you've asked me this question before. This is what Terri wants. She does not want to be in this condition. She does not want to exist in this condition. And I'm going to carry out what she wanted.

[killbotfactory]

74. Don't let facts get in your way, ralphie

Terri's just a inch away from rising out of her coma and doing a hula dance while praising Jesus as she ascends to heaven.

[Megahurtz]

76. What???

? ? ?

[Ezlivin]

77. Terri's been driving a Corvair!

Time to get in the driver's seat and let Terri off at the next exit.

[lebkuchen]

81. Tiresome

though everyone needs their individual angle to get notice.

[mountainvue]

87. Well, the R's did give a lot of money to his campaign. n/t

[fujiyama]

88. Ralph

Go fuck yourself. Your opinion means about as much as Patricia Heaton's, Pat Boone's, or Mel Gibson's.

The only people that care are the .30% that voted for your worthless sorry ass this time, and even those mindless dolts don't care.

[Terran]

92. Whatever, Ralph.

Let's get Paris Hilton's opinion. I care about it as much as I care about yours.

[OnionPatch]

94. I support Ralph's right to his opinion

Although I agree with most of you that this whole thing is Republican grandstanding, I also happen to think letting Terri die of thirst is crude regardless of the circumstances. If someone I loved were dying or on the edge of death, even if I knew it was useless, even if I didn't think they were coherent, the least I would do is get them nourishment in whatever way I could. From there on in it would be in God's hands.

I know a lot of you feel differently and I respect your opinion too, but I thought liberals were supposed to be tolerant of different viewpoints. I often disagree with Ralph, but I'm glad he doesn't walk in lockstep.

[sarcasmo]

95. Nader has turned into a real life one flew over the kookoo's nest.

[peacetalksforall]

96. Just exactly when did Nader morph into strange being. I am so tired

of people I admire morphing. There are few left to trust.

[scavok]

97. Gee Ralph...

Too bad your medical opinion is about as valid as Bill Frist.

Aren't you sad that you're still not the center of attention.

[LiberteToujours]

100. Remove Ralph's feeding tube

[Zhade]

102. Wow. Is NADER missing his cerebral cortex, too?

I mean, WTF? He can't be this misinformed, can he?

[arwalden]

103. Ralph Is A KOOK

[despairing optimist]

108. Ralph, with all due respect, a hospice is not a hospital

You go to a hospice to let the people there help you to die with dignity. If you don't believe in hospice, don't use it. This isn't your business, and coming from someone who until now vigorously upheld the rights of individuals against powers that would try to limit those rights, you're spending your political capital faster than a chimp on a Segway. Wrong time, wrong place, wrong fight.

And here I thought that wisdom came with old age. Not.

[Rhiannon12866]

109. I want her to live, as well. I know that this makes me flame-bait

And I totally understand why. Every anti-abortion, anti-gay fundie has crawled out from under their respective bushes to get in board with this. Terri probably wouldn't have even liked most of them. I sympathize with her parents and would fight for her as they are. But you know that I'm not any of the afore-mentioned groups. I just feel terrible for her. I know that I'm in the minority, here, but please don't pull the plug on me.:shrug:

[barb162]

113. I'm with you

[Rhiannon12866]

115. Thank you. I understand those who are not, and why,

But I sure appreciate the support. If the RW would back off, I think we'd have many more supporters. Thank you.:-)

[barb162]

116. I know and I agreed with everything you posted. I am trying to

see through the crap, and concentrate only on Terri Schiavo, what has and is being done to her, the ramifications to others who are profoundly disabled, etc, without watching the right or left wing emotions. Like you, I don't like being attacked as a know-nothing or a fundie or as a person who has fallen for fundie philosophy because I am concerned about what I see as denial of her constitutional rights. It is too bad that I am seeing less reasoning and logical discussion on these boards than name calling, "screaming," etc.

[Rhiannon12866]

117. This case has gotten totally out of control

What should have remained a private matter has become a cause celebre for the right wing, "right to life" nut cases. Even George Bush* has gotten on board with this, despite his total lack of compassion for those on death row in Texas while he was governor. And his brother and the state of Florida are little better. This whole circus makes me sick. And, I agree, it completely muddies the waters to the point that what is right or wrong here has become pretty damn difficult to discern.:shrug:

[barb162]

114. Good for him. This woman committed no crime and she

is being starved by Greer's order. Judge Greer operates a form of kangaroo court in which he cares only for the so-called "evidence" of one side, namely M. Schiavo.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

121. AGREE !!

that's the reality of the situation

[sellitman]

118. I think Nader has been "Jellin"

His cerebral Cortex has that is.