Schiavo to Undergo Autopsy to End Debate -- Lawyer

[Up2Late]

(I don't think this is going to win many fans, but, I see their point about quieting the Conspiracy theorists)

Mon Mar 28, 2005 07:34 PM ET

By Jane Sutton

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (Reuters) - The husband of brain-damaged Florida woman Terri Schiavo has ordered an autopsy after she dies to silence allegations his plan to cremate her body is aimed at hiding something, his lawyer said on Monday.

As supporters of Schiavo's parents took their fight to prolong her life to Washington 10 days after her feeding was stopped, Michael Schiavo's lawyer, George Felos, said her pulse had become "thready" and she had not passed urine for a while -- a possible sign of approaching death.

He said Michael Schiavo, who has been pitted against the parents in a seven-year legal conflict over whether to allow Schiavo to die, requested an official autopsy to show the "massive" extent of the brain damage she suffered in 1990. "We didn't think it was appropriate to talk about an autopsy prior to Mrs. Schiavo's death," Felos told reporters outside his law office in Dunedin, Florida. "But because claims have been made by, I guess, opponents of carrying out her wishes that there was some motive behind the cremation of Mrs. Schiavo we felt it was necessary to make that announcement today."

Disagreement over the planned cremation rather than the full burial demanded by Schiavo's Roman Catholic parents has been a subplot to the long legal battle.

(more at link)

<http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8016906&src=rss/topNews>

[brooklynite]

1. Of course, the fix will be in...

the RWers will contest the choice of Coroner, the acuracy of the autopsy report, and any purported inconsistency they can find. SOMEONE (mark my words) will insist on a "second" autopsy

[Stinky The Clown]

2. Yup

The wing nuts will demand she be kept on ice until they find a suitable fundiedoc to cut her up.

[eleny]

4. They can just show some pictures to Frist

That oughta do it. :(

[LiberalFighter]

13. Frist might want to look at them but he would be committing a crime

Remember Dale Earnhardt's autopsy photos?

[yellowcanine]

21. Fristy will diagnose psychological abuse by Michael in 1988 just from

looking at pictures of the cross section of the remaining cerebrum. He will further conclude that it was the abuse that caused the bulemia and hence the heart stoppage. Therefore Michael is guilty of murder. No trial is necessary, as the great heart surgeon senator God has proclaimed it and it must be so. In fact, there is no need for any expert medical witnesses at trials anymore - just send the pictures to the heart surgeon senator God and have him make a pronouncement.

[Up2Late]

3. Yup, You're probably right.

This is so sick:cry:

[merwin]

8. I'm sure they'll have the judge pick the medical examiner to do the

autopsy, or at least supervise it. The judge who's been involved in this case (a republican, if i'm not mistaken) has actually done a very fair job so far. Hopefully he'll be the one deciding on this.

[LiberalFighter]

11. I doubt that the judge has any say in that matter

406.11 Examinations, investigations, and autopsies.--

(1) In any of the following circumstances involving the death of a human being, the medical examiner of the district in which the death occurred or the body was found shall determine the cause of death and shall, for that purpose, make or have performed such examinations, investigations, and autopsies as he or she shall deem necessary or as shall be requested by the state attorney:

(a) When any person dies in the state:

1. Of criminal violence.

2. By accident.

3. By suicide.

4. Suddenly, when in apparent good health.

5. Unattended by a practicing physician or other recognized practitioner.

6. In any prison or penal institution.

7. In police custody.

8. In any suspicious or unusual circumstance.

9. By criminal abortion.

10. By poison.

11. By disease constituting a threat to public health.

12. By disease, injury, or toxic agent resulting from employment.

(b) When a dead body is brought into the state without proper medical certification.

(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.

(2)(a) The district medical examiner shall have the authority in any case coming under subsection (1) to perform, or have performed, whatever autopsies or laboratory examinations he or she deems necessary and in the public interest to determine the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or to obtain evidence necessary for forensic examination.

[LiberalFighter]

12. Making public autopsy photos.... its a no no

In fact as a result of Dale Earnhardt's death autopsy photos cannot be made public.

406.135 Autopsies; confidentiality of photographs and video and audio recordings; exemption.--

(1) A photograph or video or audio recording of an autopsy in the custody of a medical examiner is confidential and exempt from the requirements of s. 119.07(1) and s. 24(a), Art. I of the State Constitution, except that a surviving spouse may view and copy a photograph or video or listen to or copy an audio recording of the deceased spouse's autopsy. If there is no surviving spouse, then the surviving parents shall have access to such records. If there is no surviving spouse or parent, then an adult child shall have access to such records. However, the deceased's surviving relative, with whom authority rests to obtain such records, may designate in writing an agent to obtain such records. A local governmental entity, or a state or federal agency, in furtherance of its official duties, pursuant to a written request, may view or copy a photograph or video or may listen to or copy an audio recording of an autopsy, and unless otherwise required in the performance of their duties, the identity of the deceased shall remain confidential and exempt. The custodian of the record, or his or her designee, may not permit any other person, except an agent designated in writing by the deceased's surviving relative with whom authority rests to obtain such records, to view or copy such photograph or video recording or listen to or copy an audio recording without a court order. For the purposes of this section, the term "medical examiner" means any district medical examiner, associate medical examiner, or substitute medical examiner acting pursuant to this chapter, as well as any employee, deputy, or agent of a medical examiner or any other person who may obtain possession of a photograph or audio or video recording of an autopsy in the course of assisting a medical examiner in the performance of his or her official duties.

[merwin]

14. How does that apply? This doesn't fall under those conditions.

It's a completely voluntary autopsy, which means that they would have the option of choosing who perofrms it. It is Scott that is actually asking for the autopsy.

I would assume they would also have the option of appointing qualified people to oversee the examination.

[LiberalFighter]

16. There are 3 major sections... it falls under (c)

(a) When any person dies in the state:

(b) When a dead body is brought into the state without proper medical certification.

(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.

[MADem]

28. Who is Scott???

You aren't talking about the guy who dumped his wife in the bay, are ya???

[merwin]

54. Sorry, Mike :-) Mental slip

[merwin]

91. Now I remember.... Scott is his brother :-)

[Mike Daniels]

45. Appears that it's not voluntary

MS is saying he agrees to one but it appears by law he doesn't have a choice if he wishes to have her cremated.

Now, I'm not saying there was foul play of any nature but since you can always dig up a buried body at a later date for examination it makes sense that any body that will be unrecoverable upon disposal be subject to an autopsy.

[LiberalFighter]

17. Cremation approval (Florida Statutes 406.11(1)(c))

Cremation approval
(Florida Statutes 406.11(1)(c))

A. All requests for cremation, burial at sea, or donations must be approved by the Medical Examiner prior to the actual cremation.

1. Before authorizing the irretrievable disposal of a body by cremation, the Medical Examiner must be assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual.
2. The death, if previously unreported to the Medical Examiner, must first be verified as a non-Medical Examiner case according to Florida Statutes, 406.11.

B. Approval of a cremation, and accepting the responsibility for irretrievably destroying potential evidence, is a decision based on the quality of the information on the death certificate. The death certificate should be accompanied by a CREMATION APPROVAL FORM filled out by the attending physician to demonstrate that the death was due to natural causes. The cause of death on the death certificate must be sufficient to:

1. rule out trauma,
2. identify the immediate cause(s) of death, i.e. septicemia, peritonitis, bronchopneumonia, renal failure, etc., and
3. identify the underlying or proximate cause of death - the "due to" disease or injury responsible for initiating the lethal sequence of events.

C. The most common pitfalls this office encounters with causes of death are:

1. failure to state the underlying cause of death;
2. scrambling of immediate and underlying causes of death; and
3. listing extraneous data in the section entitled 'Other Significant Conditions'. The section 'Other Significant Conditions' (Part II) should be used only for those conditions that contribute to death, but are unrelated to the cause(s) listed in Part I.

D. The CREMATION APPROVAL FORM is often helpful in clarifying the cause of death as well as providing additional medical history that assures that the death was not by violence.
Words like subdural, fracture, sepsis, fall, trauma, cardiac arrest, heart failure, hemiplegia, quadriplegia, paraplegia, and shock typically do not explain a natural death and often indicate a traumatic origin. It is necessary to rule out traumatic underlying causes or identify the natural disease processes,

[merwin]

23. That's only for circumstances in which the ME or state attorney deems

it necessary. It's basically listing the circumstances in which either of those people can 'force' an autopsy to be performed.

[Carolab]

32. Medical Examiner has NO jurisdiction in this case.

(I used to work for an ME.)

This would be a PRIVATE autopsy ordered by the husband.

[comsymp]

50. So Berkland's out, huh?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22lori+klausutis%22+berkland

[Carolab]

61. Thank God.

Or someone.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/

Dr. John Thogmartin has agreed to do it at Michael's and Felos' request.

<snip>

George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney, said the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy before her remains are cremated.

“We didn’t think it was appropriate to talk about an autopsy prior to Mrs. Schiavo’s death,” Felos told reporters Monday, "but because claims have been made by, I guess, opponents of carrying out her wishes that there was some motive behind the cremation of Mrs. Schiavo, we felt it was necessary to make that announcement today.”

<snip>

[KaliTracy]

67. but that's who is doing -- from Pinellas county - According to CNN

earlier this afternoon.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/28/schiavo/

PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo's husband has asked that an autopsy be performed on his wife after she dies so that a full report can be done on the extent of her brain damage, an attorney for Michael Schiavo said Monday.

Attorney George Felos said the autopsy will be performed by Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the chief medical examiner of Pinellas County.


{emphasis mine}

[Carolab]

79. Yes. But it is a PRIVATE autopsy; i.e., not MANDATED by law.

There is a difference. It's not the M.E.'s to determine b/c there is no legal necessity based on suspicions of an "unknown" cause of death; it's a request initiated by the husband and his attorney.

[KaliTracy]

84. OK. thnx.. So... this is just a question - why couldn't they have someone

from each "side" -- or (or plus) an independent observer who is medically knowledgeable in autopsy be present? Is that against the law -- or more likely to be possible if it is a private autopsy?

[Carolab]

94. The M.E. is rarely alone in the room.

There is generally at least one prosector and/or an assistant M.E. or forensic fellow present. If the case were a homicide, suicide, etc. there would also be law enforcement but this is not the case here.

[Clark2008]

81. Thank you.

First sense of understanding of protocol in legal matters regarding autopsies I've seen, thus far, in this thread.

[brooklynite]

53. And...our FR friends write...

If Michael wants an autopsy, the fix MUST be in!!! He's got something on Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the chief medical examiner of Pinellas County that he would not want revealed.

a voice of sanity crying out in the wilderness

Could you people be any more paranoid? Now you're sullying the name of a coroner you know absolutely nothing about. Do you have any shame at all?

apparently not

Don't you think people have reason to feel paranoid in view of the shady misdealings that have already occurred? How do we know this doctor is not one of the "gang"?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1372813/posts

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. Talk about tin foil hat wearers

from freerepublic thread:
:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

As the husband readies himself for a new life,
and maybe, a new wife...

Let us ponder what is at stake
for all of US.

Why is it Clinton- Appointed-Judges refused to honor
President Bush's call for a review of Terri's case?

Is this a big Clinton FOOT trying to trip any positive
approval rating for Individual Rights and for President Bush...and Terri just got in the way?

All in hopes of FATTENING Hillary's chances in 2008?

Did Terri DIE
so Hillary could WIN?

Did Elian GO
so Bill Clinton could prove allegiance to
anti-American sentiment?

Yes, Yes, and YES.

Just wait until Hillary Rodham
pulls out America's Feeding-Tube
and deprives us of the Internet and Privacy.

[elcondor]

92. AH, it's all clear to me now

OF COURSE it's Clinton's fault! :eyes:

[Up2Late]

97. Isn't that ALWAYS the answer?

:sarcasm:at least for the RWers.

[Clark2008]

80. I think they have medical examiners in Florida and not coroners

Dear God, I hope so!

For the record, an ME is a doctor and is appointed by the state.
A coroner is an elected offical and, in the past, usually was a funeral director or a cop or something. Someone who knows a dead person, but not an ME.

[lostnfound]

5. I think this is sick and in poor taste.

It won't close the debate anyway, but she is a person, not a political football.

[POAS]

6. I agree this is sick but it may be necessary

because with all the accusations being tossed around, especially the various ones about abuse and murder.

Mr. Schiavo really has little choice but to make sure that evidence exists to defend himself against whatever false claims may be lodged against him either in civil or criminal courts.

[Malikshah]

10. I'm a bit confused-- autopsies are common--especially in cases

where there are disputes raised.

I agree that it should have had to come to this-- yes-- *that* is sick. But I don't think Michael Schiavo has much of a choice in the matter.

Tragically, his wife is gone and cannot be there to support him over the rest of his life-- he will forever be haunted and hunted by the likes of those fanatical freaks. I can not imagine what he has gone through in over the last 15 years--only to have the last few years become worse--and now the last few days-- days in which he wants to focus on grieving--to be taken up with death threats and slanderous libel.

To top it all off-- he's attached to a historical event in US history what with the criminally negligent actions of DeLay and company.

[Patchuli]

96. I feel that way too

I just wish all this didn't have to be so public. My feelings are the most with Terri Schiavo. I keep thinking how if it were me, I would feel and that would be embarassed and mortified beyond belief. God bless her and speed her peace from all of this. She deserves better respect than this.

[VegasWolf]

7. Fundies don't believe in facts or science. n/t

[Mountainman]

19. Their motives are questionable in my opinion.

My guess is that the fundies are using Terri in their cultural war. She means very little to them other than someone or something to further their goals.

To prove my point, wait until she dies and listen to them say we need conservative judges who don't believe in the culture of death. They will push to have the filibuster rule thrown out.

They are like the Islamic fundamentalists only they call themselves Christian.

My wish is that the country turns on them.

Today on Hanity, Randal what ever his name is said that the media was lying and that they are reporting the polls upside down. He said 80% of the people are on his side.

Lying is a means to an end for them.

[Solly Mack]

9. Fucking bunch of asswipes

He shouldn't have to prove his innocence to a bunch of developmentally arrested throw-backs.

[doublethink]

15. Bobby Schindler on Larry King CNN ....

just brought up 'Questionable Circumstances' on how Terri (his sister) got into her condition, practically accusing Michael of foul play. When Larry King told him the Autopsy to be performed after she passes on should lay these questions to rest .... Bobby said he didn't want to talk about it. WTF? :crazy: Yea they won't accept any FACTS now or even after she passes on. How sad.

[Gatchaman]

18. nice guy...

Bob Schindler has a real future with the republicans. He'll make shady allegations, but won't provide any real information. Now Hannity, Savage and company will have "proof" that Michael Schiavo "murdered" his wife.

[magnussun]

27. Demonizing a greiving dad doesn't help matters

There are some suspicious circumstances, and also many mitigating that suspicion. I see the left and the right demonizing either the parents or the husband. I don't like the husband, I'll be clear on that, though I agree with his decision. Lets try to be human about this, and recognize that Bob Schindler is not playing any game, he genuinely loves his daughter and believes what he says. We should have conmpassion for Terri's friends and family, REGARLESS of their politics. And Michael needs to turn her BODY over to the family for a proper Catholic burial. Not doing so, and insisting on cremation shows what a vicous man he is.

M

[daleo]

31. He can't win.

If he doesn't have an autopsy done, they will say he is hiding something. If he does have an autopsy done, they will say he is abusing her catholic beliefs.

[magnussun]

60. State mandates autopsy

"If he doesn't have an autopsy done, they will say he is hiding something. If he does have an autopsy done, they will say he is abusing her catholic beliefs."

The state of Florida requires an autopsy before cremation--hence Michael is not "having" an autopsy done. The issue is about a Catholic burial, which does not include cremation.

M

[LiberalFighter]

71. State does NOT require an autopsy before cremation

Read post 17

State only requires that permission is obtained from Medical Examiner

Medical Examiner determines if an autopsy is needed based on the criteria

[comsymp]

46. Your last couple of sentences confuse me

And Michael needs to turn her BODY over to the family for a proper Catholic burial.

I was under the impression that, according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, Michael Schiavo is "the family." Pls clarify?

Not doing so, and insisting on cremation shows what a vicous man he is.

You find cremation to be a vicious act?

And for extra points, can you prove your assertion that Bob Schindler "genuinely loves his (step)daughter and believes what he says"? It's fine to believe that, and it's generally a safe assumption, but when you state it as fact it should be supported by evidence.

[magnussun]

62. Clarified

"I was under the impression that, according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, Michael Schiavo is "the family." Pls clarify?"

Blood relatives---Mom, dad, brother and sister, who are having dispute with husband. Husband gets his way and has tube removed (I don't disagree with that), against BLOOD family wishes. Is it too much to turn her body over to the family she spent the vast majority of her life with?

"You find cremation to be a vicious act?"

Are you for real? Cremation is a vicious act when the family is Catholic and Catholic burials do not include cremation. Can he allow them this ONE wish? Why does he insist on cremation when every person who loves her wishes her to be buried according to her faith?

"And for extra points, can you prove your assertion that Bob Schindler "genuinely loves his (step)daughter and believes what he says"?"

Assertion? You are so caught up in this that you actually believe he doesn't care about his daughter? That he spent all those years loving her and raising her in preparation for his role as a right-wing actvist?

"It's fine to believe that, and it's generally a safe assumption, but when you state it as fact it should be supported by evidence."

Why quibble with that part of my post? Look. I am an independent. I don't hate everyone the left hates, nor those who the right hates.
It seems that partisans can't accept moderation, or questions, at all.
Discussion is the only way to find the truth, and it is the truth we want, right? Or is Terri a pawn, whereby "sides" try to "win?"

Can't you have compassion for her family and for what they are going through--regardless of disagreement with them? They are human beings, who have suffered right along with Terri. I frankly think the tube should have pulled after a year or two--but that does not mean I can't understand her parents' grief.

M

[grannylib]

66. May I ask a question? I am really trying to understand something, and

I am not trying to offend anyone, OK?
Why is it important to not remove the feeding tube if she's Catholic, and not to be cremated if she's Catholic, but it's OK to ask her husband to divorce her? Is divorce not considered a mortal sin any longer, or is the party who does NOT seek the divorce not 'penalized?'
Thanks for any help anyone can lend me in understanding this.

[TankLV]

76. Do a little research - Catholic beliefs DO include cremation.

YOU should check out the facts before spewing lies.

[comsymp]

86. Response

Is it too much to turn her body over to the family she spent the vast majority of her life with?

Well, yeah, actually. He is still her husband. As Citizens of the US, practicing Catholics and presumably good Christians, the family is obliged to defer to her married state.


Are you for real? Cremation is a vicious act when the family is Catholic and Catholic burials do not include cremation. Can he allow them this ONE wish? Why does he insist on cremation when every person who loves her wishes her to be buried according to her faith?

1) It appears that at least one person who loves her wants her cremated. That person is also the only one legally entitled to make the decision in this case.

2) Unlike divorce, the Catholic Church does not have a problem with cremation. According to the link I just cited, it was apparently settled by Vatican II the same year TS was born.


You are so caught up in this that you actually believe he doesn't care about his daughter?

Frankly, I don't know - and neither do you. As I stated above, "It's fine to believe that, and it's generally a safe assumption, but when you state it as fact it should be supported by evidence."
I'm not particularly "caught up in this," as should be obvious by the fact that I'm not using emotional arguments or terminology <cough>, nor will you find my post count in this or related threads to be particularly high. In fact, my only comments on this issue beyond the half-dozen or fewer posts here, can be found here. Does that sound like I'm "caught up in this" to you? Additionally, I don't personally grok how this can be a partisan issue - to me, it's a family rights / individual rights / privacy rights issue. Period.

Are you "so caught up in this" that you don't believe that MS cares about his wife? All evidence (court documents, public comments by the Schindlers, MS' refusal to divorce / remarry, his 15 years as primary caregiver / responsible party, etc.) suggests otherwise.


Can't you have compassion for her family and for what they are going through--regardless of disagreement with them?

Actually, having had a similar experience, I not only feel compassion for them, but empathy. Please don't try to mischaracterize my remarks. I do believe, and strongly, that MS is her family, too - and that the act / state of marriage redefines family status to not only include the spouse but to elevate the spouse above biological family, and that (under most circumstances - there are always exceptions) *only* a spouse has the right - and obligation - to enforce the other's wishes. This view is also supported by most mainstream religions, including Catholicism, as well as civil law.

EDITED TO FIX LINK

[doublethink]

52. Just a few other things to respond to your post ...

If you notice the 'Bobby Schindler' you first reacted to above is not Terri's dad ... it was her BROTHER that this conversation was originally about. See posts 15 and 18 .... and try to detach your emotions from the FACTS when attempting to analyze what's going on here. Peace.

[magnussun]

63. Typo

Bob was a typo. It doesn't really matter, because you know the intent. I am in the middle on this. I have questions. I don't blindly believe one side or the other.
The implication that I am going on "emotion" is ridiculous. First of all, we are dealing with human beings and a very emotional situation. Emotions SHOULD come into play when discussion a very emotional issue.
I favored pulling the tube. But it aint my decision, is it? Why is it that if I try to be moderate here, I am attacked, the same way that I get attacked on right wing newsgroups for doing the same?

M

[TankLV]

74. I'll agree to no such ridiculuous thing as you claim, thankyouverymuch!

The right is demonizing the husband, we agree on that. The so-called "left" according to you, is merely reporting the truth as is known - WITHOUT ANY EDITORIALIZING.

The Shindlers are the ONLY ones who are indeed "playing a game" with this, and their actions are disgusting.

I could agree that in some miniscule perverse way, they do love their daughter - but their UNFOUNDED hatred of their son-in-law is what motivates them, that is a FACT.

Of course "he believes what he says". So do all liars and charlatans like Delay and Terry, etc. That statement means nothing.

By the PARENTS insisting on HAVING THEIR WAY, shows how vicious and dispicable THEY are.

HE is HER HUSBAND. THEY have made it clear how they feel about him.

HE owes THEM NOTHING.

[Erika]

20. Michael has acted honorably in every phase of this

Yes, the right wing fringe will hold onto their fantasies that Terri was killed by her husband, but that's the way they are. Reality is an unknown item to them. Plus they love playing the eternal victim role.

[the_spectator]

22. You know, with this autopsy

and THEN the transportation of the body up to PA for Michael's planned cremation, where the Schindlers want a Florida burial, even after Terri passes on, this won't be over yet.

Remember "Reagan week"? - (in this case, autopsy, transportation up to PA, etc, this could easily fill up a week.) Hey, maybe the Congress could invite them to have the body lie in state in the Capitol rotunda for a day or two, en-route as it were.

[Erika]

24. Republicans wouldn't visit the body at the rotunda

Notice that GW Bush wouldn't visit with the protestors in D.C?

They are running from this issue with their tails tucked between their legs. Kind of like Gingrich and Livingston did to hide their own marital behavior when they were pointing fingers at Clinton.

[the_spectator]

25. Maybe you're right, but it's a pity

they won't be flying her body out to California for the cremation - remember, flying it out there at the end of the day to catch the last rays of the setting sun out over the vast Pacific? That was touching.

[magnussun]

65. Fringe comes in both parties

We do not know about any of these people. We don't know if Michael did anything to Terri to cause this. Probably not, but we do not for sure. What I know is that there is a right and a left wing fringe, and BOTH play the victim role when it suits them.

M

[magnussun]

26. Vicious Micheal

Why didn't Michael Shiavo allow a PET scan or an MRI to show the massive extent of her injury? Now he's saying an autopsy will show this. A little late. I'd say, to assauge her family and his opponents.

And why will he not let her family have her body for a Catholic burial?

I am in the middle on this issue, but I don't understand the viciousness. Her parents have suffered enough. This man needs to be satisfied that he got the feeding tube removed, instead of adding pain to an already unbearable situation by denying her a burial appropriate to her faith. What possible reason can he have for this, if not to put the nail in her coffin and into her parents' hearts.

M

[Kinkistyle]

30. Because Terri has BRAIN IMPLANTS that need to be surgically removed.

A.) It is TERRI'S wish to be cremated. Her parents have no say in it.

B.) Doctors have determined that Terri doesn't require an MRI or PET scan. In addition, Terri has IMPLANTS in her brain that have to be surgically removed before they can scan her. The courts have reviewed this and agreed. Why further her suffering by cutting her open messing around with her innards (possibly kill her!) while she is still alive for an expensive procedure deemed completely unnecessary?!

Schiavo just wants closure on this matter. Her parents have suffered only because they are selfish and unwilling to respect their own daughter's wishes. The one who has truly suffered for 15 years here is Terri and her husband Michael who has done everything in his power to respect his wife's wishes.

[magnussun]

68. Michael suffering, but not parents?

Point well taken on the MRI and PET scan. But Michael is not having the autopsy done, Florida law requires it.

"Schiavo just wants closure on this matter. Her parents have suffered only because they are selfish and unwilling to respect their own daughter's wishes."

They do not know what her wishes are, they only have their bitter enemy Michael's word on it. While I may agree that they are being selfish, I don't think it is malicious. It is out of love that they believe she can recover, and that even if she doesn't her life still has value.

"The one who has truly suffered for 15 years here is Terri and her husband Michael who has done everything in his power to respect his wife's wishes."

Michael has suffered more than her parents? He finds a new woman after a few years, has a few kids, and you say HE is suffering because of his love for Terri? How often was he visiting her before the media stepped in? What about her parents?
Is it true he will receive a million in life insurance after her death? Is it true he took some of her rehab money and spent it on lawyers? I am not saying this is true. I am only asking the question.

M

[NickB79]

83. Don't forget who encouraged Michael to start dating again

Terri's parents. They even went so far as to set him up on dates with single women they knew.

"Is it true he will receive a million in life insurance after her death?"

No, it is not true. The only money he recieved was $300,000 of the $1 million malpractice settlement, 10 yrs ago. All $1 million has been spent on Terri's care since then, so he gains nothing from her death.

"Is it true he took some of her rehab money and spent it on lawyers?"

No, again this is not true. The rehab money Terri got ($700,000) was put into a trust fund that Michael could not touch, and was already spent on her care years ago. The $300,000 Michael recieved was also spent on her care long before this circus started.

[mondo joe]

33. Why get an MRI to reconfirm a sound diagnosis?

Terri is not a toy to comfort her parents.

She married Michael, and their remains will be back in his family plot. That's not unusual.

[Erika]

34. The only viciousness is by the Schindlers

Michael has played a class role. After the way the Republicans have attacked him, such as DeLay who made the same choice as he did, and the utter desertion by the Bush boys after the polls showed overwhelmingly that the feds did not belong in personal issues. Michael is her husband and speaks for her, that is the law.

Michael requested the autopsy. Good for him. The right wing nutsos need to get off his case. He saw his wife's wishes to the end. The right wing nutso's sought to bribe him out and he told them to go to hell and now he has requested the autopsy.

[magnussun]

69. No class role

"Michael has played a class role."

Sure, the loving husband who moved on with another woman a few years after her attack. Respectful of her parents wishes to try and help her. He says she can't feel anything, so why didn't he divorce her and let her parents take over? For the record I don't agree that she should have to go on like this, but if she feels nothing, and it will comfort her family--what's the harm in letting them have their child?

"After the way the Republicans have attacked him, such as DeLay who made the same choice as he did, and the utter desertion by the Bush boys after the polls showed overwhelmingly that the feds did not belong in personal issues. Michael is her husband and speaks for her, that is the law."

That is well understood. I have no issue with his decision, only his treatment of her parents, regardless of their politics. I understand he's been attacked by republicans, but why deny her a Catholic burial?

"Michael requested the autopsy."

No he didn't. The state of Florida requires it.

"The right wing nutsos need to get off his case."

I have no sympathy for the tearless, arrogant jerk, but take issue with Randall Terry and whacko company.

[NickB79]

82. Catholics don't believe in divorce

You are angry that cremation isn't an officially sanctioned burial by SOME sects of Christianity, but you think it's ok for a divorce to take place, which Catholics really frown upon?

"what's the harm in letting them have their child?"

Because the courts, after interviewing numerous witnesses, have ruled that Terri's wishes were to not live in a state like the one she is in now. If we can simply ignore her wishes, what good does a living will do for anyone? This is not about letting them "have their child." Their "child" is a 40-yr old woman, 25 yrs old at the time she went into PVS, and fully within her rights to choose to not want to live in this state. It is also a flagrant violation of the marital bonds recognized by the government. Letting her parents make the final decision for her future not only violates her wishes, but the sanctity of marriage between spouses.

BTW, the State of Florida DID NOT mandate an autopsy be performed. That has already been explained in detail in post #17.

[Ganja Ninja]

36. Here's how a local Neurosurgeon described her condition.

Her brain matter died, it necrofied and was absorbed by her blood stream and passed from the body as waste. The area where the brain was is now filled with spinal fluid. That process began when she had her attack and has run it's course long ago.

All she has left is a brain stem and some distorted brain tissue that is more like scar tissue than brain matter.

Having an autopsy will document the extent of her injury so there is no doubt who did the right thing in this case. It will help to protect Mr. Schiavo form any future lawsuits from unreasonable, uncaring, religious fanatics that might be inclined to try and make his life miserable.

[Bridget Burke]

37. The Catholic Church is no longer against cremation.

Since it was a pagan practice, it took until the 20th century. But the Church is capable of change.

The parents' grief has been assuaged by selling their story to the "vicious" anti-abortion crowd. They've already OK'd selling names & addresses of people who've contributed to "their cause" to a right-wing mailing list company.

No, you aren't in the middle of this issue. Your position is crystal clear.

[magnussun]

70. Yep, I am in the middle

"No, you aren't in the middle of this issue. Your position is crystal clear."

Please explain how I am not in the middle of the issue--after I've stated I was in favor of the decision to take out her feeding tube. That doesn't mean I can't look at Michael and wonder why he didn't divorce her and let her parents try (in futility, probably) to help her recover. For the record, I have, on right wing groups, questioned why it is considered "anti-life" to allow people to die with dignity.

I am a free thinker, and in the partisan world, that means your on the left if you are moderate or on the right. There's no gray area with extremists. I get attacked on right wing newsgroups for stating anything that questions their orthodoxy. I was told that I would be attacked more viciously if I disagreed in any form with liberals. My opinion is that I have been thus far, but no personal attacks as of yet.

M

[LostinVA]

41. She is having a Catholic burial

Catholics can be cremated, their ashes can be present at a requiem mass, etc. The Schindlers and their pet monks apparently like to lie about Catholic doctrine. I taught CCD for many years, and my best friend's brother is a Jesuit priest, and he says Mrs. Schiavo can be cremated. Jesuits aren't exactly known as hippies, you know. Jesus.

[magnussun]

72. Pet monks?

"Catholics can be cremated, their ashes can be present at a requiem mass, etc. The Schindlers and their pet monks apparently like to lie about Catholic doctrine. I taught CCD for many years, and my best friend's brother is a Jesuit priest, and he says Mrs. Schiavo can be cremated. Jesuits aren't exactly known as hippies, you know. Jesus."

Pet monks? Are you aware that there are different denominations within this religion? Some are more old fashioned and don't agree with the new allowances. That isn't "lying" about Catholic doctrine."
Your title says she WILL have a Catholic burial. Has mikie boy agreed to let her parents have a "pet monk" at the funeral to perform rites and rituals? For that matter, will the loving, loyal, faithful
husband (who kept his marriage vows, until the "in sickness" part) allow her parents to attend their daughter's funeral?

M

[Hans Delbrook]

95. WHAT???????????????

<<Are you aware that there are different denominations within this religion? Some are more old fashioned and don't agree with the new allowances. >>

There are NOT different denominations within the Roman Catholic Church. There are different orders and they may have their own practices and their own ways but there are not different denominations as the official definition goes:

de·nom·i·na·tion
a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body

There is only one legal and administrative authority with the Roman Catholic Church and that is laid out in Canon Law. In this case it is:
Canon 1176 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law states, "The Church earnestly recommends the pious custom of burying the bodies of the dead be observed, it does not however, forbid cremation unless it has been chosen for reasons which are contrary to Christian teaching."

You can believe and post whatever you want but please do not spread mis-information about the Roman Catholic religion. The Schindlers may not want a cremation and they are w/in their rights to object but neither they, nor their supporters, should misrepresent Church teaching. They are wrong to give the impression that a cremation is not compatible w/ a Catholic burial; it is an insult to those faithful Roman Catholics who have chosen this method of burial.

[Spazito]

42. Interesting, you decry the 'attacks' on the Schiavo

and ask for compassion for all parties and then turn around and smear the husband. He is not denying her anything. Cremation is allowed in the Catholic faith. HE is her family. He has the right to decide.

I don't see you in the middle at all, you seem to have chosen your 'side' quite clearly by your header 'Vicious Michael'.

[magnussun]

73. No, I haven't chosen sides

No. I have not chosen sides. I merely see both sides. Just because I believe Michael to be vicious doesn't mean I wouldn't have done the same thing in his position. When dealing with partisan people, anyone who is moderate is not permitted to agree with one or their other side on any issue without being pummeled by partisans.

M

[zipplewrath]

47. Presume Terri's wishes

When asking questions about Michael's actions, it is a good idea to begin with the assumption that he is acting on Terri's wishes. If you begin there, the reasons for his choices can be easily understood as honoring her wishes. At this point, whose wishes you think he is more interested in honoring? Furthermore, anticipate WHY she might have made those choices. Yes, all these things are presumptions, but does not Michael deserve the benefit of the doubt? Basically don't judge Michael on things of which none of us have any knowledge. He has gone to court to establish the right to carry out these wishes. That court gave a preponderance of consideration to the Schindlers, yet Michael prevailed anyway. Isn't there some obligation on our part to give Michael the benefit of doubt here?

[Spazito]

48. Well said!

*

[slackmaster]

58. How would you behave if you'd been subjected to demonization?

Michael Schiavo has acted honorably. He's protecting himself as is his legal and moral right.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[magnussun]

59. No honor in that

He has not acted honorably in denying the parents request to have their daughter vuried according to her faith.

M

[slackmaster]

88. He's her husband - He has the right to speak on his wife's behalf

Sanctity of marriage, and all that.

[daleo]

29. I am glad in a way.

It is too bad this is necessary, but it will put to rest at least some of the accusations against him. I have a hunch he will bring suit against the worst of the slanderers, one the autopsy findings have been made public, if they persist in their claims.

It will also be of some scientific interest, to compare the autopsy of the brain with the CAT scans.

[Erika]

35. The last pic of her brain showed the cortex

as a sack filled with spinal liquid. The thinking/feeling matter had disappeared.

[daleo]

51. I am sure the autopsy will confirm that.

Hopefully it would settle the matter for the people who insist her brain isn't that badly damaged, though.

[CoffeeCat]

38. The fundies will accuse Michael Schiavo of hiring an "activist coroner" nt

[emad]

39. Schiavo rivals 'agree to autopsy'

BBC


The husband of Terri Schiavo, the brain-damaged US woman now on her 11th day without food, wants a post-mortem examination once his wife has died.

Michael Schiavo, who says his wife did not want to be kept alive artificially, wants the examination to uncover the extent of her brain damage.

Mrs Schiavo's parents, who have fought to keep her alive, are reported to have agreed to the request.

But they are also afraid an "overdose" of morphine could hasten her death.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4390501.stm

[Ganja Ninja]

40. I think it's a good idea.

It will decide who was right and who was wrong in this and protect Mr Schiavo from any future lawsuits by busybody's that might want to make his life miserable.

[bluedog]

43. toooooooooooo bad media

here I believe that the media will NOT get any photos.if thats what the parents are banking on...........


The Florida Legislature passed the law in March, restricting the release of autopsy photos. The measure came in response to the Orlando Sentinel's request to see photos of NASCAR driver Dale Earnhardt, who died at the Daytona 500.
http://www.studentpressreview.com/news/2002/01/11/Overv

[emad]

44. Christians rally at White House for Schiavo

March 29, 2005
Times

From Jacqui Goddard in Pinellas Park, Florida



CHRISTIAN activists flew to Washington last night to confront legislators about Terri Schiavo after the disabled woman was given her last rites.

Supporters made a final effort to save her by appealing to politicians on Capitol Hill to enforce a congressional subpoena which, they say, makes Mrs Schiavo, 41, a legally protected federal witness. Issued 11 days ago to prevent Mrs Schiavo’s feeding tube from being withdrawn, the subpoena was rejected by Florida judge George Greer, triggering a political wrangle over the constitutional separation of powers in the US.

“Were the subpoenas a political stunt or do they plan to enforce them?” asked Patrick Mahoney, director of the Christian Defence Coalition, at a rally outside the White House.

Mrs Schiavo’s parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, seemingly resigned to her death as she spent her tenth full day without food or water, pleaded for a late miracle. For 12 years they have opposed their son-in-law’s efforts to let Mrs Schiavo die. Michael Schiavo argues that his wife, diagnosed with a persistent vegetative state since a heart attack starved her brain of oxygen, would not have wished to stay alive. His home in Clearwater, Florida, which he shares with his girlfriend, Jodi Centonze, and their two children, is protected by armed police. Christian activists who laid flowers on the pavement outside defied a torrent of water as Ms Centonze’s brother, John, switched on the garden sprinklers to keep them away.Mr Schiavo, who has maintained a vigil at his wife’s bedside, was “ very upset”, he said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1545645,00.html

[coeur_de_lion]

49. I think it is the smartest thing her husband can do.

The autopsy will of course be contested by her family, there will be more fights over this. At least he is basically saying that he has nothing to hide, and he wants her parents to understand just how badly her brain was damaged.

This poor woman, if she could talk, would hate it that the people she loved the most are fighting over her like this. I can understand both sides. The parents can't stand to lose hope that their daughter will communicate with them again. People sometimes do awful things when they are grieving, and this is a prime example of that. Michael on the other hand only wants to have his wife's wishes respected. I hope if something ever happens to me my own wishes are respected.

And we all (I certainly do) need to have a very specific living will so that this kind of thing does not happen to us. It's awful for both sides that Terry was so young she never thought it was necessary to have a living will.

Maybe we should do a DU poll asking how many of us have a living will. That is the lesson for the people who are following this case. Make sure everyone you love understands what you do and don't want done if you are incapacitated.

It is such a crime that a private family matter has turned into a political pissing contest.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

55. And, how will they determine what brain shrinkage is due to dehydration?

The brain is pretty much 80% water and dehydration does shrink structures, so I'm afraid that any brain autopsy will be hopelessly confounded by the method of death. It would have made more sense to rescan her brain prior to starting the dehydration regimen.

JB

[localroger]

64. Brain and dehydration

While the brain of a person who is dehydrated might shrink, all of its structures will remain intact. In fact, the brain is the last organ to be denied water or nutrition as the dying body shuts down. If Terri's brain is in fact healthy, the autopsy will clearly show this. And if the autopsy shows nothing but some wisps of scar tissue, that too will be conclusive.

[CarlWoodward]

56. A few have mentioned it but

its worth repeating - cremation is NOT prohibited by the Catholic church. It's been allowed for years. The right-wing rant that "Terry is being denied a Catholic funeral" is nonsense.

Her husband allowed her Catholic last rites, for God's sake. Twice!

[slackmaster]

57. The true Conspiracy Theorists will never be silenced

They'll claim the autopsy results were "fixed".

[magnussun]

75. Last post on this

I have not seen many people here say their prayers are with all concerned, because everyone involved is grieving. I think all the sympathy is with Michael, based on politics. Shouldn't progressives look at the human side of this instead of the political? I see very little feeling here, except for anger. My initial posts on this issue regarded my sympathy for her parents. Can't anyone here see clear to try and put themselves in their position? I concur that right-wing religous nuts have taken over, but that doesn't prevent me from seeing the real heartbreak her parents are experiencing--losing their CHILD in this way.

May God Bless Terri and take her into His loving arms. She will finally be out of this body and mind, and at peace at last. may God also bless all those who are greiving.

M

[mondo joe]

78. Feelings do not supercede rights.

The Schindlers have caused themselves endless grief.

Neither Michael nor Terri Shciavo's should be expected to surrender their rights to accomodate these bastards.

[Bridget Burke]

85. The Schindlers can take comfort in the money...

They've already agreed to sell information from people who have donated money to a Right Wing mailing list service. Powerful people are paying their legal expenses.

[Moosepoop]

87. No, I'm sorry... can't agree

I too felt great sympathy for the parents at the beginning of all this, and throughout most of it.
But the final straw for me has been the last couple of days.
Here's the mother, supposedly convinced that her daughter is lucid and aware of her circumstances. The mother is on TV "pleading" with her son-in-law and his girlfriend -- "You have your own children. Please, please give my child back to me."

Yet, she hasn't been to her daughter's hospice room in the last two days, because it's too hard for her to watch her daughter's death occur??

Sorry, ma'am.... but if you really loved your daughter so much, and if you really believed she is actually experiencing her impending death with clarity (or even is she isn't), YOU WOULD BE THERE WITH HER! "Too hard" for YOU??? My ass!!! It would absolutely devastate me to watch my child deteriorate and die, it might just kill me, but it wouldn't be about ME, it would be about HER... and I'd damn sure BE THERE FOR HER NO MATTER HOW HARD IT WAS FOR ME.

My last wisp of sympathy from one mother to another just vanished into the air. She wants her child returned to her, but can't be there for her??? Please.

[slackmaster]

89. I am looking ONLY at the human side

I believe Michael Schiavo's claim that his wife would not have wanted to be kept alive in this manner is correct, honest, and truthful.

Keeping her alive this long has gone against HER wishes, which supersede those of her parents. I think the violation of her wishes is far more significant than the inevitable grief her parents are feeling for losing their daughter. They lost her 15 years ago. Her soul is long gone, maybe in Heaven having a glass of wine with Mother Teresa and contemplating the ridiculous fuss being made over her physical body.

Can't anyone here see clear to try and put themselves in their position? I concur that right-wing religous nuts have taken over, but that doesn't prevent me from seeing the real heartbreak her parents are experiencing--losing their CHILD in this way.

I can't fault them for their feelings or for having a different POV than her husband's. But this unfortunate dispute was settled in the court systems a long time ago. That's one of the reasons we have a court system. I think the court system did its job properly.

[Roland99]

90. Schiavo Autopsy Will Not Confirm Diagnosis

http://www.medpagetoday.com//tbindex2.cfm?tbid=789

PINELLAS PARK, Fla, March 29-Neurologists say the autopsy that is to be performed on Terri Schiavo after she dies will not definitively confirm a diagnosis of persistent vegetative state.

"Persistent vegetative state or minimally conscious state is a clinical diagnosis," says Michael De Georgia, MD, head of the neurology/neurosurgery intensive care unit at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. "It cannot be confirmed by autopsy."

Patients in a persistent vegetative state are a subgroup who suffer severe anoxic brain injury and progress to a state of wakefulness without awareness.

Michael Schiavo, husband and guardian of Terri Schiavo, and Mary and Bob Schindler, Ms. Schiavo's parents, have been engaged in a contentious public and legal dispute over the decision to remove Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube, but: both want an autopsy and both say the post-mortem exam will provide evidence to finally nail down Ms. Schiavo's diagnosis.

[Name removed]

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