House Moves to Block Sales of Wild Horses;House RollCall Wild Horses

[Algorem]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/19/AR2005051901581.html

By MARY DALRYMPLE
The Associated Press
Thursday, May 19, 2005; 8:50 PM

WASHINGTON -- Lawmakers voted Thursday to block a six-month-old law that allows the government to sell wild horses and burros, with opponents of the law protesting that the animals were ending up in processing plants and on the tables of foreign restaurants.

The 249-159 House vote would stop the Bureau of Land Management from using any money in a $26.2 billion bill funding next year's natural resources and arts programs to sell horses that roam public lands in Western states.


The measure overturns a provision in a spending bill passed last December that ended a 33-year-old policy of protecting wild horses from sale or processing. The horses, said Rep. Nick Rahall, D-W.Va., shouldn't be sold so they "can end up on the menus of France, Belgium and Japan."

Other programs in the bill, which funds the Interior Department and Environmental Protection Agency, absorbed a 3 percent spending cut from $27 billion this year. Lawmakers shrank grants
House RollCall Wild Horses...


House RollCall Wild Horses

http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/washington/index.ssf?/base/politics-6/1116551398148660.xml&storylist=washington

AP) — The 249-159 roll call Thursday by which the House voted to block a law that allows the government to sell wild horses and burros.

A "yes" vote is a vote to pass the amendment.

Voting "yes" were 170 Democrats, 78 Republicans and 1 Independent.

Voting "no" were 19 Democrats, 140 Republicans and no Independents...

[struggle4progress]

1. Wild horses are beautiful but they're a non-native species. eom

[MrMonk]

2. How long must they be there before they become "native"?

[American in Asia]

3. well, they're a heck of a lot more "native"

than cows or sheep, aren't they???

Or am I wrong that this is part of the issue? Got to read more about this.

[achtung_circus]

4. We had an example of this in Suffield, Alberta.

A herd of feral horses had existed on the vast grasslands of CFB Suffield in southern ALberta. For years there had been population control in the form of one man with a rifle. When he retired, there was no predator, similar, I'm sure, to the case on BLM lands.

A decision was made to remove the horses. The increasing population was stressing the watering holes. The holes were being chewed up by the hooves of an increasing number of horses and becoming mud puddles.

Since the removal, and it's attendant adoption program, the water has come back. Elk have been reintroduced, after being exterpated in the 1960's.

One thing to remember about comparing ferals with cattle grazing is that cattle grazing is managed. Ferals are precisely that. Without some way to manage the population, the grass is toast.
More here:
http://www.pnr-rpn.ec.gc.ca/nature/whp/nwa/suffield/dd02s02.en.html#protection>

[Mountainman]

8. Bull shit on the cows vs horses grasing.

snip:
Officials of the Bureau of Land Management, which now control wild horses and burros management on both BLM and USFS lands, currently are planning to allow what is equivalent to only one wild horse or burro to remain on the public lands per public lands livestock operator. This equates to approximately 17,000 wild horses and burros for 17,000 ranchers! To appreciate the inequity, each one of these ranchers may have 100's or even 1,000's of head of domestic livestock.

snip:

ARE WILD HORSES AND BURROS SCAPEGOATS?:

Wild horse behavior patterns make them more ecologically harmonious when compared with livestock. Behavioral studies show that wild horses range widely throughout both steep, hilly terrain and lower, more level areas, while cattle concentrate on lower elevations where they camp on and destroy riparian meadow zones, laying them waste! Those who know wild horse habits, however, realize that a band will not camp on a riparian zone but will water in a quick and orderly fashion, then move on to highland grazing areas rarely frequented by cattle.
http://www.savewildhorses.org/extinct.htm


To speak of the wild horse living upon the wide open, public domain lands of North America is to speak of one of the continent's most genuinely indigenous, ecologically complementary and magnificent of species. It is also to speak of justice in its highest sense.The horse’s return to its true cradle of evolution in North America produces a positive resonance in every alive and attuned conscious man and woman today. These horses truly enhance the ecosystem of Western public lands, evolutionarily, ecologically, and in many other ways.

For example, due to its unique digestive system, the horse greatly aids in the building up of the absorptive, nutrient-rich humus component of soils. This, in turn, helps the soil absorb and retain water upon which many diverse plants and animals depend.

Since the horse’s digestive system does not thoroughly degrade the vegetation it eats, many diverse seeds pass through its stomach undegraded and able to germinate in its fertile droppings. This is a beautiful example of mutualism among animals and plants; and, in the horse’s case, it has been established over literally millions of years upon the North American continent.

The wild horse opens up water sources both during winter and summer for other species to partake. This it does with its hard hooves. In the same manner, it breaks crusty snow and ice during winter freeze over, allowing other animals to access vegetation to feed on, or for vital shelter.

And there are thousands of similar benefits that the horse provides to other native, North American species, precisely because it has co-evolved over not just thousands but many millions of years here in its true cradle of evolution - North America.

And much the same can be said of the horse’s close relative, the burro.

Much of this harmony is re-established when horses and burros regain their rightful freedom in the mountains, prairies, plains, valleys and deserts of the West.

This is recognized by the Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act, Public Law 92-195, still in effect and which was passed into law unanimously in 1971. This wise act recognizes the special relation between people and equids and, I believe, tacitly recognizes a moral obligation between humankind and horse kind.

http://earthhopenetwork.net/The_Truth_About_Wild_Horses_A_Travesty_of_Justice.htmhttp://earthhopenetwork.net/The_Truth_About_Wild_Horses_A_Travesty_of_Justice.htmhttp://earthhopenetwork.net/The_Truth_About_Wild_Horses_A_Travesty_of_Justice.htm

[struggle4progress]

14. I agree the cattle do tremendous damage to the rangelands. eom

[Colorado Blue]

20. Well - the cattle number over 4.1 MILLION. The horses,

MAYBE 30,000 - plus or minus. They don't do nearly the damage the cattle do - AND - from what I understand, the way their digestive systems work, they actually reseed the land as they travel.

Also, those are FEDERAL lands - our lands - and the cattlemen run their animals without paying fees or taxes for the upkeep and maintenance of the land. And, they are frequently complaining about drought, so forth - yet - routinely vote Republican. Republicans think global warming is fuzzy science. So it's a vicious circle.

I do not understand why the people who depend most upon the land, aren't leading the charge for environmental reform.

And - the cattlemen REALLY tick off hunters and environmental groups out west.

Another problem: the extraction industries, who run roughshod over the range, and who, along with the cattlemen, are extremely influential.

[rwedumed]

27. In horse manure...

seeds do not sprout until teh manure is comepletely degraded over time and mixed in teh soil. Horse manure is very high in acid.

And horses once did roam the north american continent, but went extinct, and were re-introduced by the spaniards, and the spaniards certainly have been here less than "millions of years".

[Mountainman]

5. So are you a non-native species.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? An animal doesn't have to be native to have it's life spared.

My guess is that spending time with the wild horses would enrich most of our lives more than spending time with you.

Anyone near Ridgecrest, CA take a couple lbs of carrots and go to the BLM holding facility and meet some of our natural friends. They are a delight to see and interact with.

I must admit I am a vegetarian horse owner so I am prejudiced and I like animals more than I like people. I especially dislike people who don't like animals or think there lives aren't important.

[rwedumed]

7. Close the slaughter houses...

and then round up the horses.

The problem is that there are more horses than there are people willing to adopt them. These "wild" horses are mustangs, descendents of the horses the "conquistadores" brought over from Spain, as up to that point horses were extinct in America.

Contrary to reports mustangs, if caught young, are easily breakable, however a male horse over the age of four or five, (depending on temperament) is at the edge of easily breakable.

The herds do need to be thinned, whether through adoption or some other method, (slaughter) the fact remains that it is easier to destroy a few of these magnificient animals than it is to let them over populate and have the bulk of them starve.

This is one of those times where the right choice is the hard choice, but for the continued viability of the species as a whole a balance must be found and kept.

[Mountainman]

9. You don't "break" wild horses you gentle them.

Someone who knows how to train horses by "Natural Horsemenship" can train most any horse.

[Dave Reynolds]

25. Agreed.

I have been in the round pen with a 16-year-old (recently gelded)Utah mustang. We came to an agreement in about 45 minutes, I was merely using a herd dynamics technique. He is a very personable fella.

[Mountainman]

26. I am just learning how to train horses myself.

I've had my horses for about 4 years now and I am amazed by them everyday. I love spending time with them.

I think that unless you work with them closely and daily you cannot understand what great animals horses are. I love them.

[Runcible Spoon]

33. another agreement. It's easier to gentle a wild horse than it is

to undo years of physical and psychological damage done to an abused horse. I have worked with all sorts of horses, the most challenging yet rewarding being an abused mustang.

[Mountainman]

10. Where do you get your information? Is there a link? I want to read

a horse expert's opinion on this.

[enlightenment]

11. I think that most folks would agree that the numbers of horses

and burros (here in Nevada, anyway) are becoming problematic, potential adopters are insufficient, and some older animals are difficult to gentle (personally, who'd want to be? I'd rather be wild, myself).
Slaughter is a tough word, however, since it suggests that the animals will be killed and/or used in a cruel fashion -- and that's the problem with the law they're attempting to block. If we cannot find ways to help these animals survive, and all they face is death by disease or starvation, or both, then sympathetic and humane culling may be the answer. Selling these animals to slaughter houses is not.

[Mountainman]

12. They do not humanely treat them. First they are packed into a truck

where many of them die before they get to the slaughter house. The they are forced to stand for days and days in their own waste.
snip:
Another correspondent was a woman named Joey Ogburn. Here's what she had to say:

"I arrived at Pacific Livestock Auction last June 5, and I cried out to everyone and anyone who would listen. The Gila River Indian Community did not care about the horses they rounded up. They separated the mares from their foals that were only days old (the younger ones died in the parking lot of Pacific Livestock Auction).

"I am part of the Wildhorse Ranch Rescue, and we have several horses from their roundup last year, where mares were auctioned in groups so that the average person could not purchase them. We spent thousands of dollars to save the babies that they purposely orphaned during the roundup, as did many other people who purchased them.

"These foals were separated when some were just days old and put in a holding pen at PLA for three days with hay and water. Foals at that age must have mare's milk or a milk replacement. If this is not cruel, tell me what is."

There's nothing we can do about my gullibility, but some people are working to help the mustangs. Wildhorse Ranch Rescue is a 501(c)3 registered charity, and it has a Web site ­ www.luvshackranchrescue.com. It's worth checking out.
http://www.ahwatukee.com/afn/opinion/corner/05504c.html

Please talk to horse rescue people and I also would like a link to a source of the information you have so that I may read it and educate myself.

[enlightenment]

16. I think you misunderstood me

-- my apologies; I am more of a talker than an e-mailer, so very often not clear in my meaning or intent.

I absolutely agree with you -- there is nothing humane about the methods that have been and are used by these sorry excuses for human beings.

What I was trying to say is that if -- and I stress "if" -- the decision is made that some wild horses or burros need to be killed to save the greater whole, it should be done in a humane fashion. Although I still haven't recovered from holding my terminally ill cat while he was euthanized, I suppose that's the kind of death I mean. Something that shows some respect, reverence, and kindness toward the animal.

The idea that they would start selling horses for slaughter AGAIN, to satisfy someone's desire for horse meat, is abominable.

I live in Nevada, which is home to the largest herd of wild horses and burros in the US, so this is a topic of considerable interest to me. I also teach college history; Nevada History is a required course for students here, and again, this topic is of great interest -- particularly (in the historical sense) because the woman (Norma Johnson) who fought for the original legislation that became the Wild Horse and Burro Act is from Nevada.

It is the gutting of this Act that the House is attempting to stop -- and I'm all for it; but that does not resolve the larger issues that these amazing creatures face.

[Mountainman]

23. the number wild horses do not pose a threat thinning them does.

Dr. Cothran suggests that managing wild horses at low population levels leaves them vulnerable to a long range loss of genetic diversity. This is the same sort of problem which plagues endangered species around the world. But, just how small is too small? At what point do wild horse populations suffer the risk of irreparable genetic damage?

Based on his DNA analysis, Dr. Cothran now believes that the minimum wild horse and burro herd size is 150-200 animals. Within a herd this large, about 100 animals will be of breeding age. Of those 100, approximately 50 horses would comprise the genetic effective population size. These are the animals actually contributing their genes to the next generation. Dr. Cothran has stated that 50 is a minimum number. A higher number would decrease the chances for inbreeding.
http://www.savewildhorses.org/extinct.htm

I think you fall under the same spell that many people did while watching Walt Disney wild life shows were killing was supposed to be good for animals because they have no natural enimies anymore.

[enlightenment]

28. I think you mean Mutual of Omaha's "Wild Kingdom"

-- if you're going use hyperbole, strive for accuracy.

The website is interesting and informative -- my students often use it as a source for their research papers.

I don't think we really disagree with one another; it does see, though, that you are not reading my conditionals (if - may - might be).

In a perfect world, we would live in harmony with all the creatures of this earth. The world isn't perfect, though (not even on the open ranges, if you need to fence in your section), so we need to try to do the best we can.

The bill in the House is a corrective to an earlier bill, passed just a few months ago, that allowed the sale of these animals for commercial use (I think that's how they phrased it; can't recall off hand). I thought the latest bill was the topic of discussion.

[Mountainman]

13. Also bull shit on that

ELIMINATION AND SET UP FOR EXTINCTION:

snip:
Late breaking scientific evidence points to the inevitable extinction of the vast majority of wild horse and burro herds in the U.S. The question then arises: can we save the remaining wild herds before it is too late? In the past decade, tremendous strides have been made in genetics research through DNA analysis. Scientists are now better able to project the point at which a lack of genetic diversity threatens the long term survival of a species. This research has included studies of wild horse populations in the American West. It reveals how precarious the situation is for the majority of wild horse and burro populations under the management of the Bureau of Land Management (BLM).

snip:
Dr. Cothran suggests that managing wild horses at low population levels leaves them vulnerable to a long range loss of genetic diversity. This is the same sort of problem which plagues endangered species around the world. But, just how small is too small? At what point do wild horse populations suffer the risk of irreparable genetic damage?

http://www.savewildhorses.org/extinct.htm

[Colorado Blue]

21. OR - we could let them have a little more range? The

cattlemen have really crowded them into the worst parts, the real badlands.

They used to number hundreds of thousands, more than a million - I've forgotten how many - really huge herds. It wouldn't be hard to look it up on google.

So I think they've been "thinned" sufficiently.

[Mountainman]

22. check it out

THE FACTS

* Processing wild horses into chicken food in the 30's reached its peak with nearly 30 million pounds of horse flesh were canned. The unregulated exploitation of the wild horse herds constituted the Grazing Service's (BLM) policy for nearly thirty years.

* In 1971,when the Wild Horse & Burro Act was passed, there were 303 herd areas where wild horses and burros roamed. Now there are only 184, and that number is steadily declining due to zeroing out policies of the BLM.

* The ratio of domestic livestock to wild horses and burros on the public lands is at least 50 to 1. An estimated 4.1 million domestic livestock graze the public lands compared with approximately 25,000 wild horses and 5,000 burros. BLM cannot substantiate the 40,000 plus wild horses and burros they continually refer to.

* There are approximately 17,500 public land permittees, most of whom graze cattle and sheep.

* Less than 3% of the beef consumed in the U.S. comes from animals raised on public lands.

* Ranchers are charged only $1.81 per month to graze a cow and calf on our public lands. That's less than it costs to feed a hamster.

* In 1999 alone, Nevada proposes to eliminate 38% of the burro herds in the state.

* Associated Press has reported that the majority of wild horses adopted to the public have gone to slaughter.

* Three fourths of the wild horse and burro herds in the 10 western states are below population levels that will guarantee their long-term survival.

http://www.savewildhorses.org/facts.htm

[Colorado Blue]

24. Breaks my heart. But, this bill is a good idea. I couldn't

believe it when Burns snuck that provision into the appropriations bill. I had been so depressed since Bush got in again but when I found out about the horses it made me MAD.

So it's good once in awhile, having spent a lot of time bitching and signing petitions and writing furious letters, to get some action - even if it's maybe too little too late. But it's something. I adore horses, all animals really, and of course the environment is our WOMB, it's our very life, and I just do not get it that people can simply IGNORE the planet and continue raping her and making her filthy -

AAAARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHH.

We have so little power - I've been reading about Anglo American oil politics, and the huge banks with their exorbitant interest, and the gigantic multinationals, and Bush and Saud - it's hard not to feel like a helpless little bug.

I guess we are. But, we can try, right?

And take a few minutes every day to visit Pale Male and Lola's website:)

[struggle4progress]

15. Don't let me force you to spend time with me.

I'll reiterate that I do agree the wild horses are beautiful: I'll always remember watching them run across the valleys in the Inyo National Forest.

Some of the arid Western lands, however, are very fragile: I know that groundwater mining and cattle grazing do tremendous damage, and I strongly suspect those lands are vulnerable to damage by horse herdsw as well.

[Mountainman]

17. Please check out the sights below

I'm sorry for the remark about not spending time with you. I'm known for not being a "people person" so you probably would not want to spend time with me. It just gets to me when people don't have respect for the lives of animals. I think it comes from the Bible were God tells Adam and Eve that everything was placed on earth for their use even animals.
I say bull shit to that. We share the earth with animals we do not have dominion over them.


I live in open range country and have to fence the cattle off my land.

If I let a herd of cattle graze on my land they would eat all my grass in a couple of weeks but if I let the same number of horses graze for a couple of weeks I would still have grass provided it rained.


http://www.savewildhorses.org/extinct.htm



http://earthhopenetwork.net/The_Truth_About_Wild_Horses_A_Travesty_of_Justice.htm

[MisterP]

6. somewhow I don't think aliens would want to associate with a species

whose first impulse or answer is "kill something"

[Algorem]

18. Republicans just looking for feel-good reaction from average people?

[Colorado Blue]

19. Hooray!!! nt

[NVMojo]

29. SLAUGHTER OF 41: House votes to halt horse sales

Ummmm, didn't those Repukes know these horses were destined for French restaurants when they approved this???

The dumb fecks need to seek out Native American tribes to see if they want to be managers of the wild horses and help create some jobs out of this...but, no, they'd rather line Halliburton's pockets with more blood money.

WASHINGTON -- House lawmakers voted Thursday to end federal wild horse sales and brushed aside promises of new protections the government put in place this week to prevent animals from being resold for slaughter.

The House voted 249-159 for an amendment to shut down a Bureau of Land Management sales program that critics said was ruined last month by the destruction of 41 horses.

While decrying the slaughters, supporters of the sales said they have placed nearly 2,000 wild horses into private hands since March.

A 22-minute debate pitted gruesome images of horses butchered to make a buck against horses left to starve on public lands or penned up in government corrals.

more...

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/May-20-Fri-2005/news/26561216.html

[medeak]

30. It was native american tribe

that traded the horses in exchange for younger ones to a dealer who then had them slaughtered.

[NVMojo]

31. sorry for the dupe, didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

[medeak]

32. you could never hurt anyone's feelings!

:-)

[ailsagirl]

34. House Votes to Stop Sales of Wild Horses, Burros

May 20, 2005
House Votes to Stop Sales of Wild Horses, Burros
Associated Press

WASHINGTON — Lawmakers voted Thursday to block a six-month-old law that allowed the government to sell wild horses and burros, with opponents of the law protesting that the animals were ending up in processing plants and on the tables of foreign restaurants.

The 249-159 House vote would stop the Bureau of Land Management from using any money in a $26.2-billion bill funding next year's natural resources and arts programs to sell horses that roam public lands in Western states.

The measure overturns a provision in a spending bill passed in December that ended a 33-year-old policy of protecting wild horses from sale or processing. The horses, said Rep. Nick Rahall (D-W.Va.), shouldn't be sold so they "can end up on the menus of France, Belgium and Japan."

Other programs in the bill, which funds the Interior Department and Environmental Protection Agency, absorbed a 3% spending cut from this year's $27 billion. Lawmakers shrank grants for local water projects and boosted money for National Park Service operations. It passed 329-89.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-horses20may20,1,2786162.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true