Non-believers raising voice in capital

[deadparrot]

Americans who don't believe in God have decided it's time they had a lobbyist in the nation's capital. Their new advocate describes herself as a "soft, fuzzy atheist."

Lori Lipman Brown starts Monday as executive director of the Secular Coalition for America. Her two goals: keep religion out of government and win respect for a stigmatized minority.

The magnitude of those challenges is, well, biblical. Think Daniel entering the lion's den, or David taking on Goliath.

Christian conservatives wield enormous clout here through a network of advocacy groups and relationships with politicians from President Bush on down. Atheists, humanists and freethinkers, as Brown's constituents call themselves, are usually ignored.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/nonbelieversraisingvoiceincapital

[phantom power]

1. Lipstick atheists?

[swag]

2. Here's the org's home page.

http://www.secular.org/

Guess I'll send 'em a few bucks.

[JuniperLea]

3. Been Xtian and been Athiest

I'm still pretty Agnostic.

My main complaint with the Religious Right is that, according to the Bible, God put us here and gave us free will. In other words, it was his choice to give us choice. We are free to follow his words, or not. I have a real problem with people forcing their views, opinions and "moral" judgment on others.

The Religious Right has no right to take away the free will God gave us!

[Ian David]

6. God loves you. Love him back, or you will burn in torment for all eternity

Love and Kisses,

God.

[JuniperLea]

12. Just what I need

A man who says love me or burn in hell.

Perfect:)

[bee]

113. lol! sounds like my ex. hmmmm ;-) n/t

[reprobate]

26. So you must believe in the 'Bad God'? If I were to worship a god, it....

...would have to be one that would not offer good with one hand and threaten everlasting torture with the other.

Come to think of it, I'd much rather worship a goddess. The female is far more nurturing and creative. But then it's your choice to accept the hateful and threatening universe as your own.

For myself, I'll take reality and be good to others because that way they'll be good to me. Eternal damnation just doesn't figure in my reality. That's for children and the childish mind.

[JuniperLea]

33. Try Inanna

Google her.

[goddess40]

38. Thanks, I'll take the worship

actually I'm an atheist, always have been which is kind of tough when you're a kid and your mother insists you go to church every week.

[howmad1]

49. Thank God I'm an atheist.

[The Wielding Truth]

104. So funny.How we are so rooted in referring to an almighty power.

Jesus brought the understanding of a merciful God.

We are to forgive them for they know not what they do. I think the

reason Jesus died was to show us that his followers should be open

to new thoughts of God, more tolerant of different views and pay

attention to those less fortunate. This Fundamental Christian make

reason difficult for believers in the teachings of Christ.

[electropop]

80. I've been an atheist since childhood,

and my parents are very Catholic. I hated Church, but was too timid to admit my personal belief system until many years later. Now I'm quite comfortable in the reality-based world.

[kestrel91316]

47. Thank you. Well said.

[Charles19]

119. Too bad its not YOUR reality, it's Gods and He created you

and it is to Him you shall return.

[RandomKoolzip]

121. Hee hee hee!

:rofl:

[Eurobabe]

122. how did "God" get to be a "him" ??

jaybus, the freepers are out this morning.

[TwentyFive]

46. Which version of god should I love?

According to the fundies, I'll burn in hell if I don't love their god version. But then the muslims will call me an infidel who will also burn.

Sheesh! Feels like walking a highwire in complete darkness....

[calimary]

75. When I was in Catholic school, the impression I got about God was

one of a more loving, nurturing, forgiving God. Someone you would WANT to love, freely (aHA! A choice!) and willingly, not looking down the barrel of a gun, so to speak.

It got me thinking about the whole strict versus nurturing parent argument.

Seems to me that people who lean towards the rigid, judgmental, punishing God also tend to be of the conservative, reactionary, regressive mindset politically. They're not into softies. They want a domineering male or male-like Super-Spirit Whose dominion is dictatorial and whose authority is by the stick as opposed to the carrot. The Guy who just threw 'em out of the Garden rather than giving them a second chance or put them in detention for awhile. Swift and terrible, no negotiations, no weighing of conditions or mitigating factors. Boom. You're out. One strike, not three. The domineering, and it could also be said, abusive father who simply beats and abuses rather than teachinig and enlightening (plus, probably, a little behavior modification). Everything is black and white. No nuance. No wiggle room. No shades of gray. Tolerance? BAH! My way or the highway! No talking. Just doing. Do it my way because I said so. Reminds me of that quote - "it would be a whole lot easier to govern if this was a dictatorship and I was the dictator." Their idea of good government is the domineering, punishing father who offers you no handouts and little sympathy. No safety net. That's wasteful government spending. Useless, won't help 'em, let 'em raise themselves up - builds character, self-made men dontcha know? Ownership - you do this for yourself. You own it. You're on your own.

Also seems to me that people who lean the other way - appreciate a more loving, forgiving God Who is like the dad in the Prodigal Son story who gave generously to his miscreant, wastrel son, and then gave willingly and generously yet again when the son came back, a penitent failure, admitting to doing everything dad said not to. And dad forgave, threw his arms open, and celebrated the return of his kid in an equally generous way. The other God would have said, sorry, door's locked. One time's a charm. You blew it. Tough shit. Eat it. Own it. The Forgiving God never locked the door. Always offered a way back in. Always saved your seat. Always loving, forgiving, accepting, willing to listen. Willing to teach and enlighten and rather heavy on the love and joy. The nurture. Frankly, a God more in touch with His Inner Female. The Mother/Goddess figure to whom many gravitate. Politically, it's the nurturing mother - a liberal, progressive entity derided as a "nanny state" that prefers to help and ease the way rather than let the School of Hard Knocks do it all. There when you're in need, with safety net in hand. There to help you when you can't help yourself. Perhaps something deep down in the ethic of the 12-step programs which teach that one of the BIGTIME things you need to do is to admit you need the help, and turn your problem over to a Higher Power as a way to seek out that help.

Abuser versus Nurturer.

Yin versus Yang (although I forget which is which).

Rigid versus Flexible.

Judgmental versus Tolerant.

I was always taught to think of God as a Benevolent Father about Whom I could think with a sense of affection as well as love. The God I learned to worship was loving and forgiving, a Nurturing God. A God definitely in touch with His Inner Female (because in the Catholic system, you are DEFINITELY pointed toward a male God), and I'm afraid with me it's ingrained.

The fire and brimstone assholes out there with their imperious religious dictates want no wiggle room. There's no room for any God but theirs. Granted, that's the First Commandment, but they interpret it SO narrowly - it's THEIR VERSION of God that they want you to choke down. It's not okay with them that you believe ANYTHING any differently at all. When the Southern Baptists vow to convert the Jews, they refuse to accept that the Jews are entitled to believe what their far-older traditions tell them about faith and the Supreme Being. No, you have to go by OUR version. The creationists are TELLING you they want equal time, but in actuality, they want ALL THE TIME. PERIOD. Because your way of thinking is JUST WRONG, THAT'S ALL!!! PERIOD.

Rigid. Versus Flexible.

That's the God they want. That's the way of life and the code for living that they want. That's the government they want. That's just how things are, in their view.

Most of us here and in the liberal/progressive movement are of the other persuasion, seems to me. We are more likely to accept them, however misguided they are, than they are to accept us. They don't want to listen to reason or studies or explanation. They just know what they know. PERIOD.

May explain why those types gravitate toward a george w. bush. And why we don't.

AW SHIT - did it again! Sorry I ran on so long.

[reprobate]

87. An excellent and thoughtful analysis, calimary. IOW conservatives were..

....all abused either emotionally or physically by their fathers. I believe that to be a reasonable and possibly true suggestion. They do bear all the signs of it.

However, when you suggest a "rigid, judgmental, punishing God" and, on the other hand a "A God definitely in touch with His Inner Female" aren't you really saying just what I suggested in post 81? That our ideas of a god are really a reflection of the patterns learned in our early development, ie Daddy the punisher, and Mommy the nurturer?

Think back to the infant in the crib. What does the infant see from each? Daddy with the deeper gruffer voice and rough beard and Mommy with the softer lilting voice and softer skin, the one who provides the food and most of the caring attention? Aren't they the real godlike figures in our lives for a good part of our upbringing?

Could that possibly be where our schizophrenic ideas of god originated? By golly I think I just had a semi-profound thought! How unusual.

[calimary]

88. By golly you did! Seems to me there's a LOT to be said for your

hypothesis.

The domineering father versus the nurturing mother. Interesting how the symbology in the art world tends to depict the male in straight, angular, harsh-lined configurations. The female, on the other hand, is round, curvy and undulating.

Deco versus Nouveau.

I think that has a LOT to do with it.

And absolutely I think that this absolutist shit on the part of the hard, dictatorial, punishing, "I don't do nuance" conservatives and regressives suggests that they grew up in a MOST oppressive atmosphere. Even an abusive one. Spare the rod and spoil the child, after all. Wait til your father gets home (when the Day of Reckoning is nigh and you get what's coming to you). It's traditioally the mother who says that, and the father who follows up accordingly. A template is born.

A precedent, if you will.

Leading us to this president, pardon the pun.

I think we just thunk up something significant, reprobate!

:toast:

[reprobate]

81. Reject both of them, they're both just half reality. Worship the Goddess.

She's far more nurturing and won't condemn you to everlastin torture if you don't think exactly as she decrees. She'll just make you do it over and try harder next time.

After all, Mommy is the one who nourishes and trains us and Daddy is the one who punishes us.

And isn't that where our ideas of a god originated?

[electropop]

79. Hey God, what's the deal with Katrina?

Did you wake up in a grumpy mood, or what? How many of your Christian people did you wipe out?

[lazarus]

101. great line from a fun movie

Witches of Eastwick, rather amusing.

Darryl van Horn (Satan) is ranting in a church about things. This line sums it up nicely:

"When we make a mistake, they call it evil; when god makes a mistake, they call it nature."

[sarcasmo]

126. WWFSMD

[arwalden]

127. Ptptptptptppppth!

Bwa-ha-ha-
ha-ha-ha-ha!

[clydefrand]

25. I'm with you. I've always thought we don't really have a

choice in anything if God exists and knows in advance what we're going to choose. Of course, I don't really believe that. Why bother to give us a choice?

[Radio_Lady]

60. Amen, Juniperx! I agree totally! And I like your dreamcatcher, too!

[liberalhistorian]

124. The "Religious Right"

is neither, just like the "Moral Majority" was neither moral or the majority.

[Zenlitened]

4. Excellent news.

:applause:


I think the first two goals/approaches she described, in particular, are things any progressive can support:

• As part of broad coalitions fighting policies rooted in religious beliefs, such as limits on stem cell research and access to emergency contraception.

• In alliances with groups opposed to policies they believe breach the wall between church and state, such as giving taxpayer money to "faith-based" service programs.

[Zhade]

7. Agreed.

About time we get some traction. Atheism is growing, after all.

[Tight_rope]

67. Slapping high 5 to that comment! n/t

[ixion]

5. sweet... it's about time...

:applause: :woohoo: :applause:

[Ian David]

8. MUST-SEE VIDEO!! Pastor Deacon Fred's message to Godless Americans

Every time I see this, it never gets old...

C-SPAN Coverage of Pastor's Message to Godless Americans
http://www.fes-net.com/_lob/video/gamow.wmv


See also:

The Godless Americans March on Washington—a Lesson in Godless Cooperation
by Clark Adams

<snip>

The comic relief came from two sources, one intentional and one not. First, about 50 or 60 Christian protesters lined the marching path and walked around the perimeter of the rally area. Some came from as far away as Los Angeles and bemused many attendees. Many attendees joked that the protesters gave an air of legitimacy to the Godless March. The second source was from Reverend Deacon Fred of the satirical Landover Baptist Church, as played by Chris Harper. Harper does a dead-on Southern preacher and had the crowd in stitches. He even compared himself with the protesters, with humorous results.

More:
http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=248

[reprobate]

30. "The Talking Snake Theory of Creation". That's wonderfull.

[AllyCat]

84. OMG that is hysterical!

I love the part when the Registered Trademark Chrisian protestors shout something at them and he calls them pansy, wimpy Christians! Oh this is rich!

And I'm not an atheist! Just can't stand the perverted version of Jesus those freaks are trying to ram down everyone's throats.

[Old and In the Way]

9. Nothing has done more harm to the cause of real faith than

the hypocrites and con artisys who have used religion as a means to acquire money and power. They are the most cynical of atheists.

[PurityOfEssence]

16. They were there at the birth of religion; they're nothing new

When you have a mindset that relies on terrorizing people, hucksters will abound to cash in. If Jesus hadn't gone after Religion, Inc., he'd have lived to a ripe old age.

You're a fair-minded chap who shares a birthday with me, and I've enjoyed your posts for years, so I'll assume that your last sentence wasn't intended to have the connotation of all atheists being bad, with just some of them being the worst. Am I correct?

Remember: there are PLENTY of true believers who are total users and supreme rotters; the concept of forgiveness is a mighty good mechanism for continual abuse, so please bear that in mind since the major religions are egocentric.

[Old and In the Way]

29. Would never connotate that atheists are bad. The honest ones

I admire for their conviction because it is a far tougher row to hoe when you go through life without expecting any reward at the end of the line. The ones who don't believe, but pretend they do, solely to provide a means to an end (money and power) are the ones I have a special disgust for. Paradoxically, I hope there is a God if only to judge these people to a life of eternal damnation. :-)

I know that the religious con-artists have been around as long as religion has been organized...but the whole concept today has become institutionalized and elevated to corporate status and this seems to be a relatively recent occurance.

I am more of an agnostic on the whole question of Higher Being existance....I try to cover my bets by living by the Golden Rule.

[PurityOfEssence]

42. Whew. In a time of continual disillusionment, you lift my spirits

Shitheadedness is an equal opportunity ugliness, and when toying with unquestionable beliefs, the floodgates are open.

[Radio_Lady]

61. There you go! I'm in your corner, Old and In the Way...

(Don't like your screen name much. Is that really how you feel about yourself?)

[Old and In the Way]

97. Feeling a little older every day.....

this administration remains in office.

But actually, I happened to be listening to the tune "Old and In the Way" but the band, "Old and In the Way" the night I signed on. Kinda just seemed appropriate.

Old And In The Way

Lyrics: David Grisman
Music: David Grisman

Chorus
Old and in the way, that's what I heard them say
They used to heed the words he said, but that was yesterday
Gold will turn to gray and youth will fade away
They'll never care about you, call you old and in the way

Once I hear tell, he was happy
He had his share of friends and good times
Now, those friends have all passed on
He don't have a place called home
Looking back to a better day, feeling old and in the way



When just a boy, he left his home
Thought he'd have the world on a string
Now the years have come and gone
Through the streets he walks alone
Like the old dog gone astray, he's just old and in the way




Recordings

8 Oct 1973 Old And In The Way

[goddess40]

39. do you mean , Falwell and Robertson? nt

[Old and In the Way]

57. Yes I did.

Pat "Hitman" Robertson and Jerry "Gluttony is not a vice" Falwell were 2 that immediately spring to mind.

[Bluerthanblue]

123. amen- and amen.. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. I love this:

"Gary Bauer, a Christian conservative and former presidential candidate who now lobbies against gay marriage and for conservative values, says atheists' timing couldn't be worse, given Hurricane Katrina. "We're right in the middle of a horrible event when people are turning to God," he says. "They're going to find it very hard to get people to vote for the sort of things they're in favor of." "

And I always thought they claimed these things were 'acts of god'.

[Ian David]

13. LA bans gay marriage, gets three hurricanes...

Massachusetts legalizes gay marriage, we get one World Series and two Superbowls.

Do the math.

[Zenlitened]

15. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[bliss_eternal]

18. Right ON!

:applause:

Love that you said that! :woohoo:

[CdnObserver]

41. Secularists vs. Religiously Insane

Note: That's not to say that ALL Americans, Christians or Religious people in general are Insane. You all know who I'm talking about.

I was mentioning to some people I know, how is it that the most "religious" areas of the US are hit with Hurricanes and Tornados EVERY SINGLE YEAR, and yet when that Air France flight crashed recently in Toronto, a planeload of "Godless Heathens" from FRANCE all walked away without ANY deaths?

Clearly, American "Christians" just aren't squinting hard enough.

[calimary]

102. Welcome to DU!

Glad you're here, by Jove!

[Beetwasher]

83. Bwahahahahah!

I never thought of that! :thumbsup:

[defiant1]

94. Bahahaha....

:rofl:

Funniest shit I've seen today.

[dean_dem]

68. Hah!

You'd think God's approval ratings would be pretty low these days. I say it's about time for a recall.
Of course, look what Bush has gotten away with, so anything's possible.

[Patiod]

11. Yet, but until she has hundreds of TV &radio stations

broadcasting the atheist/secular message, she's way behind the Christian Coalition.

I would have a lot less beef with "Christian" radio if they would just broadcast the teachings of Jesus vs. those of Karl Rove and the Protestant rightwing.

[Lars39]

14. I love the idea,

but I'd rather it was some big guy named Guido who was anything but soft and fuzzy. :evilgrin:

[bliss_eternal]

17. Well GOOD for them!

:applause:

I'm all for equal opportunity. It's about time!

While I may not be an atheist, I believe religion and spirituality are PRIVATE and personal matters. I am SICK of having them used as political platforms and as some sort of measuring stick for human beings.

At the risk of being completely politically incorrect, I just find the whole thing retarded. :eyes:

We need more atheists on Capital Hill as far as I'm concerned! If help is needed to obtain support for this, please let me know.

[malachibk]

19. Good to hear

Though I didn't know atheists were a "stigmatized" minority.

Then again, I live in NYC.

[ArbustoBuster]

20. The prez says so.

"I don't think Atheists should be considered Americans." --Poppy "Iran-Contra" Bush.

(This is a paraphrase. I can't be bothered to look up the exact quote, since reading Poppy Chimp's words makes me ill. And then I throw up on the Japanese Prime Minister.)

[MindPilot]

24. Welcome to DU ArbustoBuster!!!

Great screen name!

[ArbustoBuster]

28. Thanks!

I've actually been on DU for a couple of years; I just don't post very often. :)

[malachibk]

31. If a bush says it, it MUST be TRUE!

Shit. Now I'm a minority-cubed.

[Maple]

35. I keep the quote handy

August 27, 1987, George H. Bush: "I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.'"

[kestrel91316]

48. So if an atheist was born in the US, where would he be a citizen OF?????

[Maple]

50. No idea

:shrug:

Some evil godless nether world I guess.:D

[frictionlessO]

73. Lil Boots doesn't believe in freedom of religion! His Quote from 1999

and this (other than knowing that Poppie was a lieing sack of chili eating monkey excrement), is why I have been fighting the chimp since before he was selected in 2000.

This is in regard to pagans being allowed to worship using base facilities. This was a "privelege" I was very interested in and had a stake in at one point and still know a large number military pagans and their respective dependents.

"Bush said that he did not believe "witchcraft is a religion," and he hoped "the military would rethink this decision." Bush was then asked whether he agreed with the recent U.S. House of Representatives' vote that said states have the constitutional power to place the Ten Commandments in public buildings, including public schools. He said that he had no problem with the religious codes being placed in every public building.

In 1984 a federal judge in Virginia ruled that Wicca was a religion protected by the First Amendment, saying the faith occupied a place in the lives of its members "parallel to that filled by the orthodox belief in God."

He later said this in a rebuttal to a letter questioning his words... he was still king of TX at the time.

"On behalf of Governor Bush, thank you for your letter about Wicca. Governor Bush respects the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of religious expression for all Americans. His comments regarding Wicca are an expression of his personal views and faith"

Ah well that makes it ok... I mean he only personally thinks they shouldn't be allowed to practition their faith while serving their country...

Lil Boots, I sincerely hope that Lucifer ass rapes you into multiple dimensions and that you are still of enough flesh to feel his release burn your insides like battery acid and paint stripper for a million years. You heartless corporatist fundie shiteater. May your blood be as the lake of death that you let New Orleans become, may your breath be like the air above the ruins of the WTC, may your body be as bruised and poisoned as you have raped and pillaged our Earth, may your soul burn and sear next to Hitlers for the attrocities you have visited upon all living things....ermmm sorry DU'ers, Ive just reached the end of psychological rope today. It just all seems so hopeless, so pointless...

[newspeak]

99. so......

My daughter believes in druidic principles and she's in the military. I guess she can't serve because she's not a true cheeeeristian citizen. Are we sure he's a born again; I mean what's all that owl worshipping, efigy burning, thing they do every year at the Bohemian Grove?

[OldEurope]

59. An Atheist born in the USA is a

citizen of
HELL

[rexcat]

74. Wow...

calling the United States hell sounds like sedition to me!

[OldEurope]

112. I´m an atheist. I don´t believe that hell exists.

[rexcat]

118. Nice to know...

but next time add a little :sarcasm: to your post.

There are some DUers who actually believe that we are going to hell.

[MindPilot]

23. You don't get out much do you?

There are seven states whose constitutions actually exclude Atheists from holding public office.

Any major newspaper will happily run LTEs saying things about Atheists even the most developmentally challenged freeper wouldn't say about any racial minority.

I doubt if any presidential candidate has ever said publicly that Blacks or Jews shouldn't be citizens, but Bush 1 said it about Atheists.

[malachibk]

32. It really is an example of how very, very different life is here in...

(most) of the North East. Especially NYC. I only know 1 Republican. Granted, her parents are Poppy & Babs's neighbors down there in Texas -- so she's worth a lot points -- but still, she's the only one.

[MindPilot]

34. Wow.

Around here it's pretty blue, but you still can't throw a stick without smacking a freep. I can't--or more accurately don't want to--imagine what it's like in a really red place.

[rexcat]

76. I live in a red area of the country...

and I can say being an atheist out of the closet, per say, is dangerous. The religious extremists, including those on DU are very scary. I had an individual walk up behind me when I was pumping gas with his bible in his hand saying he wanted to talk to me about my amphibian Darwin sticker on my car. My first reaction was to look for his gun.

If I were to run for public office my family and I would be harassed and my home and car would be vandalized. One thing is I would have to run as an independent because not even the Democratic party would recognize me.

[IntravenousDemilo]

115. Just keep throwing those sticks, MindPilot

and I hope you've whittled the ends to sharp points.

[mainegreen]

109. I agree. Could never leave the North East.

Where I grew up I'd say 35-40% of people were non-religious and non-party affiliated. Unless fishing or hunting or nascar is a religion or political party.

[bee]

114. isnt that discrimination? n/t

[BiggJawn]

51. Be glad you're not here in the Midwest...

It's that no-bullshit, no-gray-area thinking that stiff-necked hayseeds pride themselves on.

There's no middle ground. you either love and serve Jeebus Crisco, or you serve his twin brother Santa...

you couldn't get elected to even the Sewer Board out here if you were a out-and-proud Atheist.

And your kids would get the snot beat out of them on the playground regularly...

[hogwyld]

70. Peace

"And your kids would get the snot beat out of them on the playground regularly..."

All this from the religion of love, brotherhood, and peace!

[Sentath]

71. Where did you get 'that' idea?!?

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

[goddess40]

96. I believe in WI I couldn't run for office

since I'm an atheist

[Sabriel]

52. True. We try to avoid that stigmata thing.

I hear it's quite painful.

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. When's the last time you heard of an open atheist

winning an election?

[malachibk]

72. To be honest, I don't know the religious affiliations of any of my reps

on the state level and while I know that that grand manipulator H.Clinton loves to trot out god these days in her speeches, I'm happy to be ignorant in this respect. I'd be less likely to vote for a candidate that mentioned religion at all -- either in support or as an atheist. Religion has no place in politics and, should I ever run for office, I'd never, ever talk about god. Has no place.

[rexcat]

77. I can tell you that what ever political party your reps...

belong to know their religious affiliations!

[PassingFair]

105. Jesse Ventura n/t

[silverweb]

21. 'bout time.

:thumbsup:

[VegasWolf]

22. Good!!!! nt

[JNelson6563]

27. Great news!

:woohoo:

[hippiechick]

36. Zecharia Sitchen: God was an alien

... wouldn't it totally blow the fundies' minds to find out that their 'God' was actually a cosmonaut from the planet Nubiru who came to Earth in search of an alloy to help save his own planet from Global Warming, aided evolution with genetic engineering, and colonized the Middle East ?

Elohim = 'Those who came down'.


:tinfoilhat:

[daleo]

55. Or, if he was in fact, a Flying Spaghetti Monster. n/t

[hippiechick]

64. all hail ...

[Ian David]

63. Carl Sagan once speculated that maybe Jesus was an alien

I think he said it on The Tonight Show.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. There's NO WAY he could have said such a thing.

Unless he was clearly joking. He didn't believe in Von Daniken BS either.

[charlie]

85. You're right

There was a guy in the Contact movie holding a sign that read, Jesus Is An Alien. Probably where that bit of Sagan myth comes from.

[Ian David]

92. Or the guy with the sign was an "in-joke" for Sagan fans

I'm still pretty certain I'm right.

I've been wrong before, so I'll keep looking until I'm either satsified I'm right, satisfied I'm wrong, or frustrated with the whole endeavor.

[Ian David]

108. Carl Sagan said, "I tell you, Jesus Christ was an extraterrestrial!"

Carl Sagan: Biographies Echo an Extraordinary Life
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/26545

<snip>

Sagan grew up in New York, his self-confidence nurtured by a protective and doting mother. He became interested in astronomy in the manner of many a curious child, as an avid reader of science fiction. As a teenager, he stunned the patrons of a fancy restaurant by blurting out, "I tell you, Jesus Christ was an extraterrestrial!" His Utopian beliefs may have been grounded in a childhood visit to the 1939 New York World's Fair.

More:
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/26545

[charlie]

111. Well, whaddya know

You're right, I was wrong. Thanks for that, it's a funny story. I do want to note that I hadn't considered an intemperate outburst from a teenaged Sagan, I was thinking of the man. But, I appreciate you taking the trouble to confirm your claim, thanks again.

[Ian David]

117. I'm just relieved I didn't imagine it! Still...

I have a vague recollection that he may have repeated it as an adult on The Tonight Show. Although I am in no way certain.

I was certain about his saying it SOMEWHERE, but I'm only about 20% certain he also said it on The Tonight Show.

I could be thinking of Stephen Hawking.

I know, not Stephen Hawking.

[RaleighNCDUer]

86. Or making the point that one is no more believable than the other. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

89. Possibly. (nt)

[Ian David]

90. Don't forget, Sagan may have been a genius, but he also smoked pot

Not necessarily a bad thing, but it sure makes you a little bit more free in developing ideas.

I have Sagan's autobiography on my bookshelf.

Let me check the index and get back to you.

[IntravenousDemilo]

116. I think that could be: Sagan may have been a genius

and thus he smoked pot, or even because he smoked pot.

[Ian David]

91. Okay, I can't find two of my Sagan books and I can't find the attribution

But, if memory serves (and being a fan of Sagan and friends) I will be the first to admit that memory (including mine) is often fallible (it's been determined that I am wrong 1/12 of the time) but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that he said it.

[Ian David]

93. Okay, a well-connected friend of mine just emailed Ann Druyan about it

Not knowing if I am right or not is troubling me.

I feel so certain, and it bothers me to be so certain with no evidence.

Certainty is no guarantee of accuracy, and human memory (mine included) is fallible.

One way or another, I will let you know if I am right or wrong about this, I guess.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

110. Update: IanDB1 got me the goods. He said that... AS A TEENAGER!

Figures. He made no secret of the fact that, when he was young, he believed a lot of things that couldn't be true - not because he was gullible, but because his knowledge of the workings of the Universe's machinery was limited.

Like him, I believed in alien UFOs until I got evidence and brainpower enough.

Carl Sagan: Biographies Echo an Extraordinary Life
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/26545

<snip>

Sagan grew up in New York, his self-confidence nurtured by a protective and doting mother. He became interested in astronomy in the manner of many a curious child, as an avid reader of science fiction. As a teenager, he stunned the patrons of a fancy restaurant by blurting out, "I tell you, Jesus Christ was an extraterrestrial!" His Utopian beliefs may have been grounded in a childhood visit to the 1939 New York World's Fair.

[CONN]

37. Thumbs up.

[Gelliebeans]

40. Very good news indeed

:woohoo:

[struggle4progress]

43. Only an atheist can be a good Christian - Ernst Bloch

[Gyre]

44. GWB made me an atheist.

The fact that that little F_ckscum is still strutting around after making the last 4 years a living hell in the world. Lord (I mean nobody) have mercy on my soul!

Gyre

[PassingFair]

45. Great...

another group so worthy it deserves my money and support.
All groups need to be battering at the door of Chimpies castle together!

[TankLV]

53. Good for them - it's LOOOOOOONG overdue!

[usregimechange]

54. Goodluck.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[loudsue]

58. LOL! A lot! But keep up the posting! And welcome to DU!

:hi::toast::beer: You can start a thread after, I think, like, 50??? posts? But, just relax, and say hi to folks! :hi::applause:

:kick::kick::kick:

[vajraroshana]

62. Secularist equals non-believer?

While I admire their efforts, equating secularism with non-believer is a bit narrow.

Secularists as a group also includes believers of all stripes.

She, Lori Lipman Brown, says she's not afraid of using the "A-word", nevertheless, by naming the group Secular Coalition for America, it is less precise and a little less strident. Perhaps that's what she means by "soft, fuzzy atheist". At this point, it may be necessary I guess.

[atommom]

65. I'm glad they're speaking up against the blending of church and state.

There seem to be a lot of people in Washington that would love to make the USA a theocracy, and not many who dare stand up to them.

[redqueen]

69. Thank Goddess!

I was getting quite embarassed for her fan club. :)

[electropop]

78. When I get some money, I'll give them some.

We need to get rid of the theocracy. I'm sick of the widespread assumption that only "Christians" are good people, and that all "Christians" are good people, even if they are also murderers, thieves, and liars.

Gary Bauers' comment that Katrina is turning people toward God may be a bit over-optimistic. What kind of crappy God would murder thousands of poor people and innocent animals? I have heard that a lot of big disasters get people thinking along those lines.

[defiant1]

95. Personally I love the looks I get....

I have a Bad Religion shirt, with the cross logo, and everywhere I go with it on, I can't get anyone to look me in the eyes. Not cashiers, not bank tellers, not random people on the street, not vendors, no one.

It's hilarious.

[ourbluenation]

98. Does God have a face and a body - or is it a thing?

My mucho catholic mom had no answer for me...I really wanna know dammit.

[newspeak]

100. energy, pure intelligent energy

I mean we are energy, therefore, any creator type entity would be just pure energy. Don't you think? No old white man with a flowing white beard. I mean God at the Sistine Chapel looks like Zeus; or wait maybe he is Zeus!

[ourbluenation]

103. That's what I think too...many of my religious friends and family

think God is a man-like being. I mean...stop and think about that for a second. And while I'm at it...who made God?

[Bill McBlueState]

125. what do you mean by "energy"

I think of energy as the capacity to do work. I'm not sure what it means to be made of such a thing.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

106. Intelligent design?

http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/iqstats.html

[VegasWolf]

107. Intelligent Design = Talking Snake Theory of Creation. nt

[Barkley]

120. Non Belivers have lowest divorce rate

Baptists 29%
Episcopal 28%
Mehodist 26%
Mormons 24%
Presbyterians 23%
Catholics 21%
Lutherans 21%

Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_divorce.html