(High Number of) Troops returning from war zones dying on motorcycles

[UpInArms]

http://www.heraldsun.com/state/6-698126.html

CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. -- More troops have died in off-duty motorcycle accidents since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, than have been killed in combat in Afghanistan over that same time, according to safety records.

Military commanders in North Carolina say the deaths are largely the result of boredom, bonus pay, and adrenalin to burn off after troops return from wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Nearly 350 troops have died on bikes since the 2001 terrorist attacks. That's compared to 259 killed while serving in Afghanistan.

Nearly 1,000 more troops have been injured on bikes.

<snip>

"Riders who have been in accidents have told us that it's the legal crack cocaine," said J.T. Coleman, a civilian spokesman for the Army's Combat Readiness Center in Fort Rucker, Ala., which tracks accidents among soldiers. "They say it gives them the same adrenaline rush they get driving their tank through Baghdad or whatever."

...more at link...

[phantom power]

1. Is this a form of PTSD?

[UpInArms]

6. I don't know - it just seems that there is an inordinate number

coming back and dying

:(

[Marie26]

23. It does seem that way

It's maybe not PTSD, but after having their lives in danger every day, sometimes people become reckless about life & death. They're used to being in a situation where safety is nil & you might die any day. It's hard to get rid of that mindset after you come home.

[winston61]

44. no, it's a result of dumbass disorder

[DemInDistress]

2. riding bikes (motorcycles) = legal crack cocaine ...no way..

unless this spokesperson was a crackhead how would he know? rotf, stupid analogy

[Tempest]

13. The spokesperson is repeating what he's told

It's the servicemen injured in accidents that are telling him that from the way he worded his response.

And the analogy is accurate from the description by the servicemen riding the bikes.

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. Like Lawrence of Arabia e/m

[Horse with no Name]

4. Or they are using them for "suicycles"

If they have an accident, their survivors receive benefits.
IF they commit suicide, they don't.

[Tom Joad]

5. God, i remember a high school girl telling me of the death of her brother.

We were both in our senior year (this was a while back, a long while back). She had come from a small town in northern california. She said he left for Vietnam as a very happy fellow, came back and was very different. Not happy. He died in a car wreck. I still remember this conversation, 30 years later. I don't think at the time i realized that it was probably a deliberate act on his part, that Vietnam had claimed another casualty, whose name never got on the wall.

That "Marlboro Man", Blake Miller, the man whose famous face was all over the press after the attack of Fallujah is back in Kentucky. He is being treated for PTSD. Let's hope for his healing and wholeness.
http://tomjoad.org/marlboroman.htm

[Mithras61]

7. Gee... do ya think that maybe living in a war zone...

and facing death constantly could foster an adrenaline dependancy that the soldiers try emulate when they come home? Maybe some rotation of troops out of the war zone and into counseling would be a help, but that actually lets word out about what the warzone is REALLY like, and we can't have THAT, now, can we?

[Sabriel]

8. Don't they get ANY type of debriefing or reacclimatizing period?

This is a nutty way to show our appreciation for their service...no matter how you feel about it.

[politicat]

20. Not long enough.

Two weeks between getting back to the states and being back on normal duty and back in normal life.

My BIL was at Camp Lejeune -- my sister, his wife, worked at the local Yamaha dealership as a loan processer until he got out and they went to Georgia to be near his parents.

It's the adrenaline. It's the rush.

My BIL and my husband are talking on the phone almost daily. (My husband is a Iraq I vet.) I know they're talking about coping and getting through day to day, though not details. My BIL came home in better shape than most - he was not on a forward unit and while he lost good friends, he didn't lose them in front of him. He was lucky.

My sister says they come home, and it's the quiet ones, not the rabble rousers, who go out and start engaging in self-destructive behavior. They don't have a way to cope and no where to turn. My BIL is lucky. My husband is also a quiet one and knows how to cope...

[melm00se]

9. it is an example

of young men who, as a general rule, decline to take the recommended beginners training courses and then go out with over a year's pay burning a hole in their pockets and buy themselves bikes that are powered way beyond their skill level.

Now, couple that with the machismo of young soldiers, the (perceived) invincibility of youth and the inevitable alcohol (in my paper there was a picture showing a string of bikes and one of the folks in the article parked in front of a bar), you have a serious recipe for disaster.

Most people do not truly understand how fast these sport bikes can be or exactly how fast they can go from 0-100mph and in the hands of inexperienced rider disaster can come up in an awful big hurry and their reflexes (and the skills attached to those reflexes) just can't keep up...it is nothing for a bike like this to go from 0 - 60 in less than 4 seconds, and do a quarter mile in under 10 with a speed in the 120-140 mph, with an absolute top end speed in the 160's (or more). Not only are these bikes designed to go fast, they also have the ability to stop equally fast, which can cause some interesting (and potentially fatal) situations.

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

10. No mention of motorcycle saftey training...

... and I wonder how many of them react like a high schooler whose daddy buys them a 750cc racing bike, and wonder's why their kid gets killed two weeks later. Never took a motorcycle saftey course or at times, didn't even get a motorcycle license. And this happened to the best friend of an exchange student that was staying with my ex-wife and I 15 years ago.

[hack89]

27. The military mandates safety training..

before the bikes can be registered on base.

[Toucano]

11. "...or whatever."

Lovely.

[prolesunited]

12. Hey, they have the makings for a new slogan here

Wars don't kill people; motorcycles do.

[CAcyclist]

45. 4000 motorcycle fatalities last year

and the year before. In 1999, there were "only" 1000.

[genie_weenie]

14. Reasons for this from my experience

When my marines returned from Iraq (the last time),

You have alot (relatively) of money saved,

You have proved your machismo, in the grinder,

You have (possibly) become addicted to thrilling, gut clenching, adrenaline pumping rides

Of course, all of us were required to sign statements declaring we would not do anything dangerous in the next 45-90 days post Return from theatre...

[AlCzervik]

15. i wonder if they have stats on car accidents?

[Robb]

16. Quit thinking this through!

...You're supposed to say, "See, war ain't so dangerous!" ;)

[onenote]

17. motorcycle death rate is up for everyone, not just soldiers/vets

And the main reason is the repeal/loosening of helmet laws. The number of motorcycle deaths in 2004 was just over 4000. In contrast, a decade earlier, the number of motorcycle fatalities was in the low 2000s. But, if you go back to 1980, there were over 5000 fatalities. Over the course of the 1990s, due to changes in federal law that allowed states to loosen their helmet laws, more than half of the states that formerly had helmet requirements have repealed/loosened those rules. Florida is one of the best examples. In the two years following the repeal of their "all helmet" requirement, the number of fatalities increased by 70 percent.

More motorcycles on the road, fewer helmets = more people dying. Its not as if the trend for soldiers is unique. Reflects the overall trend.

onenote

[BootinUp]

18. very informative. n/t

[melm00se]

21. not entirely

there are more folks riding these days and there is a definite change in the make up of the vehicles on the road.

there is a definite spike in accidents in the 40+ age group. This group is the fastest growing rider group. they have 2 main things working against them:
1) many of them are returning riders who "remember" what they were able to do 20 years ago. Unfortunately, their bodies have changed since then, they are not as fast, nor as resilient as they once were and those memories can get them into trouble.

2) there is also a spike in "new" riders in this age group. they have all sorts of problems to contend with as it involves learning a new skill + the attitude that they already "know how to drive" so they won't get into trouble. Yes, they can drive a car, but a bike is a different beast..

Both of these groups (the newbies up to 18 months or so and the returning riders group) are amongst the most likely to have an accident. Increase that population (as what happens in the 40+ group) and the overall number of accidents will go up

In addition there is a change in the make up of the other vehicles on the road. There are tons more SUV's on the road and they introduce some new challenges:
1) if they hit a biker, an SUV front end hits a larger part of the body causing significantly more internal injuries and broken bones than being hit by a car. Ditto if a biker runs into the side of an SUV. BTW, this is one of the most likely scenarios as the majority of biker/car accidents involve some jerk off on his cell phone making a left turn into or in front of a bike.

2) SUV's being larger require that a bike hang back farther so as to be seen by the aforementioned cell phone yakking idiot. When this happens, SUV #2 only sees an opening to merge into and pulls into the spot...which is occupied by a bike (see #1 above as an end result)

3) SUV's block a larger portion of other driver's views. So driver #1 in his driveway is looking down the road and sees an SUV and nothing else (vision is blocked). Driver #1 pulls out after SUV goes by and there is a bike right there! (see #1 again).

Plus factor in the greater number of distractions for drivers and the overall general increase in pissed off drivers and you have several other reasons for the increase in bike accidents.

To be sure helmets are probably the greatest safety invention for motorcycles ever, the fact that riders chose not to where them (where legal) are not the reason for all accidents/injuries. Many injuries are just as fatal with the helmet as they are without.

(oh yeah, NC, where Camp Lejuene us located, is a helmet mandatory state)

[northofdenali]

25. No doubt, melm00se - no doubt.

Three words for new or returning riders:

Motorcycle Safety Foundation http://www.msf-usa.org/

There are instructors and MSF courses all over the US and Canada.

They also give great update courses for those of us who have been riding "forever".

RE: PTSD/suicidal riders - I see this in many soldiers and airman based near me. These kids have no idea what a bike is capable of, and most of those who sell them are looking only at the bottom line. Our local army post and airbase both require a safety/riding course for anyone who has a bike ON BASE. This means, if you live off base and don't ride it to your duty station, you can skip the courses altogether. Another recipe for disaster. Add youth ("nothing will happen to me"), booze or drugs, and other vehicles that pay no attention to motorcycles to inexperience....

[MGKrebs]

29. Seeing people talking on cel phones while driving

scares the crap out of me. When people are that distracted, they are really only capable of dealing with expected conditions, and the presence of motorcycles is rarely an expected condition for many drivers.

[melm00se]

32. why?

we are really no different than any other car encounter that skippy the cell phone king comes across everyday. Of course there are some differences but we are motor vehicles too.

treat us like you would any other car (but please don't hit us...it really hurts when you do)

[MGKrebs]

35. I think we are very different "than any other car".

And that is the problem. Skippy can get in a fender bender and still call his insurance company from his cell phone. For bikers, there are very few "fender benders". Any encounter with a car is much more likely to involve serious injury or death.

My point is that many people don't take driving seriously and this is much more of a serious consequence for bikers than it is for car drivers.

I think many drivers think of other vehicles as obstacles rather than other living, breathing, humans, and this too is a much more serious situation fro bikers than car drivers.

Of course, we choose this life, but that doesn't mean we have to accept threats to it!

:toast:

[melm00se]

36. sorry if I wasn't clear

but what I was trying to say was: please treat us with the same respect that you would treat any other motor vehicle on the road. we have the same right to be on and use the road as "you" do. we are not all speed demons, thrill seekers or closet superbike racing wannabes, we just choose to use a 2 wheeled mode of transportation.

[CAcyclist]

46. We Need a Strict Liability Law like in Europe

So that the larger vehicle is automatically liable for actual damages in a collision with a smaller vehicle (or pedestrian or bicyclist) unless the victim was grossly negligent. That would make those in SUVs drive more carefully.

[Thor_MN]

34. I generally agree with what you are saying, but question your #1

unless you are saying that since the SUV front end is higher off the ground, there is more chance of organ/head trauma.

Hitting a larger portion of the body would spread the force of the impact out, thereby reducing the force at any given point. Then again, human body vs. SUV is a losing bet in most cases.

[Born Free]

33. No increase in Pennsylvania related to repeal of helmet law

Deaths actually went down since they repealed the helmet law. Most still use their helmets but you see a few without. I think this is another one of those articles to desensitize the public to the deaths in Iraq.

[texanshatingbush]

40. Are you suggesting its safer to ride without a helmet?

[melm00se]

43. I would interpret

the post as "helmets do not make safer and more careful riders"

[democrat in Tallahassee]

19. after vietnam, my brother died on a motorcycle. I've always

wondered about it. bullshit about getting a rush; they are suicidal

[arikara]

22. There is something about motorcycles

that makes the riders feel invincible. Young, old... doesn't matter. My brothers were crazy with them when they were younger. My ex waited until he was in his 40's then bought a harley and became an idiot. Started hanging out with other morons, they'd go on these "rides" which basically meant trouping around all day together and stopping at every bar along the route and getting drunker by the hour. They'd all wear these stupid little half helmets instead of a regular helmet because they were more cool. They all wore harley shirts and strutted around with their big beer bellies. Then came the drugs. One or the other of them was always cracking up their heads and motorcycles and landing in the hospital. Didn't stop them.

We're divorced now.

[melm00se]

24. Bikes aren't the cause

they are the symptom of something else.

[onenote]

26. so for non soldiers -- who also are dying in greater numbers

what's the something else?

onenote

[melm00se]

31. that is

dependent upon the individual...

I ride 'cuz I like it, I find it relaxing, invigorating and free

Some people take each of those reasons (and others) to mean something different and behaviors (good or bad) follow.

[MGKrebs]

28. Same way the Hell's Angels got started.

They were mostly WWII pilots who came back and had trouble settling down into suburban life and driving a Plymouth after the intensity of the war experience.

We should have more effective programs to bring these guys back into society, but of course, this admin feels that they have gotten what they want out of them so they are no longer a concern.

[brentspeak]

30. Dangerous, especially if they're into the new racing cycle clubs

Besides the weekend Harley-riding crowd, there's a lot of new racing clubs, packs of kids on Japanese bikes, 10-15 riders at a time, weaving in and out of traffic as fast as they can. I've seen a couple of accidents involving them - not pretty.

[texanshatingbush]

38. Harley and Crotch rocket death rate about the same.

Death rate among the Harley cruiser crowd and Japanese sport bikes is very similar. The cruiser crowd deaths are largely due to alcohol. Guys are getting drunk and falling off. The sportbike deaths are largely due to inexperienced riders in over their head on the performance of modern sportbikes.

[dysfunctional press]

39. they often have a girl hanging on the back of the crotch-rocket too-

and here in illinois, they got rid of the helmet laws, so most of them got rid of their helmets...seeing them weaving in and out of traffic on the edens expressway always gives me the willies- because i know that one day fate will catch up with them.

[dysfunctional press]

37. going 100+mph on a bike IS a real rush...

i used to do it occassionaly, but i'd always freak out thinking about what would happen if i suddenly had a blow-out...it took me 5 years after a very bad accident(NOT my fault), but i finally gave damn things up.

[WvSky]

41. SOMEBODY POST THIS !!!!

Since I cant post a topic yet, someone needs to post this:

Soldier pays for armor
Army demanded $700 from city man who was wounded


The last time 1st Lt. William “Eddie” Rebrook IV saw his body armor, he was lying on a stretcher in Iraq, his arm shattered and covered in blood.

A field medic tied a tourniquet around Rebrook’s right arm to stanch the bleeding from shrapnel wounds. Soldiers yanked off his blood-soaked body armor. He never saw it again.

But last week, Rebrook was forced to pay $700 for that body armor, blown up by a roadside bomb more than a year ago.

Rebrook, who graduated with honors from the U.S. Military Academy in West Point, N.Y., spent more than four years on active duty. He served six months in Iraq.

http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2006020623

[sendero]

42. I totally believe..

... that a person can become addicted to their own adrenaline. That's what this is about, trying to recreate the adrenaline rush of Iraq here at home.