EX- Security Chiefs Turn on Sharon

[loudnclear]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42821-2003Nov14.html

"JERUSALEM, Nov. 14 -- Four former chiefs of Israel's powerful domestic security service said in an interview published Friday that the government's actions and policies during the three-year-old Palestinian uprising have gravely damaged the country and its people.


The four, who variously headed the Shin Bet security agency from 1980 to 2000 under governments that spanned the political spectrum, said that Israel must end its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, that the government should recognize that no peace agreement can be reached without the involvement of the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, and that it must stop what one called the immoral treatment of Palestinians."

Maybe this messeage can go delivered without having to face charges of being "anti-Semitic" since former Israeli security chiefs are saying what so many of us at the DU have been saying for months.

The former chiefs called Israeli actions "disgraceful." Since we (the US) have supported this behavior, US actions are "disgraceful" also. These policies by both the Sharon government and the Bush administration that has turned a blind eye to Israeli government behavior have caused untold harm to the reputations and stature of both Israel and the United States in the eyes of the entire world and threated the national security of both nations. In the case of the US, that sounds like grounds for the charge of "treason" against the Bush administration. What do you say... Ann Coulter?

[edzontar]

1. This is a great development....but I'm sure someone

Will find a way to call these guys anti-Semites.

This might have to move to I/P , by the way.

[Cassandra]

2. You had to bring up anti-Semitism, didn't you?

It was never anti-Semitic to disagree with the way Sharon has governed; I don't like that he has sought short-term security at the expense of the long-term health of his country. Unfortunately, there is a sizable number of people here who cannot confine themselves to simple disagreement with Sharon's policies and have to insert comments about Israel being evil, disgusting, racist and illegitimate. That is where the suggestions of anti-Semitism come in.
That said, I'm glad Sharon is facing an internal challenge to the way he has been running things. I think that as long as the US can distinguish between supporting Israel and supporting Sharon, we can be of help. Perhaps a Democratic President will be able to manage that distinction, since Bush surely cannot.

On edit: this is also a response to edzontar, who always says what he just said.

[Nlighten1]

4. It is pre-ordained that

any, and I mean ANY, criticism of Israel is met with that charge. Who will lead the charge? Insta-cracker? 1st Lt Dumbass? More than likely it will be Sullivan.

[Darranar]

5. Sorry, that's just not true.

[Cassandra]

6. What are you talking about?

:shrug:

[pretzel4gore]

9. something we don't know happened

regarding 911, and Israel, or *holes supposedly working for Israel's safety, have something to do with it. Much like Bush inc blackmailed the American people into going along (not even supporting, but abetting) the insane attack on iraq, perle, kristol, murdock and men of similar ilk in power behind the scenes in israel, have INTENTIONALLY got both US and Israel to commit atrocities that they think will force us forever to ignore their crimes in national interest and more importantly, continue the same hopeless policies they think are magic ticket.
they're wrong, both politically, and morally.
Mygod, Israel had moral authority at one time; they look like fuggin gestapo-men now!
perle, kristol, goldbergs, friedman etc should be on mossad's hit list.....
notice i don't even include sharon here.....he's a soldier traumatized by the nazi bs....plus he should never have been leader(netanyahu, a pro politician, is as extreme as sharon, yet even he felt the wrath of israel's rightwingnuts when he considered peace proposals)
sharon and bush were the result of neocon fucking around year after year in US Israel domestic politics, working toward a situation that make millions of American/Israelis their bitterest enemy (let's not even think about the muslims yet!).
what a fucking mess!

[Cassandra]

10. I recommend you get a grip

on something; I'm not sure what would help.
"Israel had moral authority at one time; they look like fuggin gestapo-men now!
perle, kristol, goldbergs, friedman etc should be on mossad's hit list....."
That does not help or add anything to the discussion.

[Darranar]

3. This is good news...

Sharon's policies are alienating many high-ranked officials.

Chief of Staff Ya'alon, for instance.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1031/p06s01-wome.html

[loudnclear]

7. Wish you could all deal the substance of the last paragraph

That's the real issue. What hath support of these hideous policies wrought for the US?

And when people can't admit that they have been wrong and insist on continuing to dig in the hole they are standing in, what hope is there?

[Darranar]

8. Israel is not a major threat to world peace...

it is but a minor flea, actually.

The real threat is corporate imperialism - which is of course backed and aided by the US.

[Cassandra]

11. Thank you, Darranar

I think a history of the real reasons for wars over the last century would have more to do with cleaning up messes (dislocations and impoverishment of whole societies) created by corporations, that any other reason.

[Darranar]

13. Indeed...

the socialist idea that capitalism and war go hand in hand has some truth to it. The major problem with capitalism (and therefore corporate imperialism) is the concentration of money, and therefore power, in the hands of the few. This often leads to violenece, whether instigated through the direct serving of corporate interests or through terrorists and the like generated from bad domestic situations brought by such interests.

We know about the imbalance of wealth in Saudi Arabia - is it any coincidence that from there the majority of the hijackers (as well as Bin Laden himself) came?

Quite a few people say that America's support for Israel is the reason for hatred of the US in the Arab world. There's certainly an element of truth to that but the greater factor to me seems to be the propping up of despotic, brutal regimes like that of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, and once Iran and Iraq. The principle purpose of this is the "defense of American interests" - aka an effort to secure the resources in the region for the US and the elimination of any who might oppose it.

Support and aid for Israel (or, rather, for the right-wing fools who lead Israel's government) is a facet of that American foreign policy that I described above; that policy is not a facet of support for Israel. Nor is that aspect of America's foreign policy due in any large part to such lobbies as AIPAC.

It is also interesting to consider that under Likud, Israel's economy is in a very bad state with no sign of improvement. Netanyahu announced awhile ago that the Likud was going to privatize some government-owned companies. The state of Israel's economy is in part due to the Intifadah and the refusal of both sides to make peace, and it is also in part due to the unwillingness on the part of the GOI to actually FUND social programs instead of letting them decay to nothingness.

Lastly, the best thing that can be done for world peace is better labor regulation for the global economy and an effort to crack down on corporate control of many Third-world countries. Destroying or attempting to destroy Israel will simply bring about more violence and unrest.

[goforit]

12. I feel that Sharon stole the election like *. ...I'm glad the majority is

finally getting bold.

Dig in boys and be steadfast!!!!

I know in my heart that most of the Israelis have a conscience
over all this bloodshed.
I fear that Sharon has placed a huge bullseye on their heads.

Does Israel have the same Diabold booths?

Would love to know what their system is like.