Venezuela Limits on Church Concerns Pope

[Eugene]

Venezuela Limits on Church Concerns Pope


Thursday May 11, 2006 7:46 PM

AP Photo CAR102

By NICOLE WINFIELD

Associated Press Writer

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI told Hugo Chavez on Thursday that he was
very concerned about moves to limit the Catholic Church's influence in Venezuela,
including proposals to change anti-abortion rules, the Vatican said.

The Catholic Church has been one of the most critical voices against the leftist
Venezuela president, who has in the past called the church leadership a "tumor."

Chavez and the pope met in the Apostolic Palace for about 35 minutes Thursday,
during which Benedict made an apparent reference to abortion, asking that Venezuela's
public health programs respect life, according to a strongly worded statement
from Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls.

Catholic leaders last year lobbied against an initiative by some pro-Chavez lawmakers
to loosen the near-complete ban on abortion and allow it for incest or rape victims.
That measure was shelved but Catholic leaders say they are worried about another proposed
loosening of abortion restrictions, suggested by some outside the government.

<snip>

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5815508,00.html

[Dhalgren]

1. Well if the Pope became pregnant from being raped by his

drunk father, he might be a little more sensitive to the idea...

[One Honest Guy]

11. One way to put it.

I agree 100%.

[saigon68]

15. Nobody raped that scumbag

He was never pure enough to be a choir boy

[Lance_Boyle]

2. How 'bout the Pope worries about Vatican City,

and Chavez worries about Venezuela? Fucking nosy-ass Pope, wanting to stick his holy fucking nose into everyone else's business.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ezlivin]

4. And the Church got real upset when Gutenberg printed the Bible

You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

[VegasWolf]

10. The Vatican didn't much care for the invention of the telescope either.

:toast:

[Bridget Burke]

14. But the Church got over it.

The Fundamentalists are pushing Creationism.

[atreides1]

5. Would this be....

....the same Catholic church that forced the indigenous people to worship the European concept of Christ? The same Catholic church that for centuries allowed the murder of the locals, kicking them off of ancestral lands so that the Vatican could build churches and cathedrals?

That Catholic church?

[bemildred]

6. Church limits on personal freedom and autonomy concern Chavez. nt

[gratuitous]

7. Where is your kingdom, Popie?

In this world or not in this world? What do you care whether the leader of a sovereign nation "limits" the influence of the church? Isn't the leader of your spiritual realm more powerful than Mr. Chavez? Then act like it.

[Robbien]

8. The Associated Press is really on a tear about Venezuela

BushCo has said it recently pumped a ton of money into the "democratizing Latin America" through propaganda campaign. The Associated Press appears to be earning its share.

[Bridget Burke]

9. Chavez gave a different account of the meeting....

(from the linked article)

During a 2-hour press conference that followed the audience, Chavez said most of his meeting with the pope focused on poverty and was ``very positive.'' He called it ``the beginning of a new era in the relationship between the Catholic hierarchy and the Venezuelan government.''

The Venezuelan president has said he wants good relations with the church. He regularly quotes from the Bible and often says Christ was a socialist and a revolutionary.

Other news accounts of the meeting mention the differences but do not emphasize them. This version from Venezuela omits any disagreements. http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/05/11/en_pol_art_11A706111.shtml

Joaquin Navarro Valls has been in charge of the Vatican Press Office since 1985. Trained as a doctor & psychiatrist, he is a longtime member of Opus Dei. (Cue ominous music.)

I wonder what the Pope & Chavez actually said to each other?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

13. Ask Chavez.

And ask Fidel Castro, who invited the previous Pope to Cuba.

(JPII was just as convervative as Benedict--but more charming.)

[Judi Lynn]

23. I wonder who's portrait that is they are looking at.

My guess is he took a painting with him of Simon Bolivar to give the Pope.



Here's a quick look at a subject he said the Pope found interesting, Mission Barrio Adentro:

What is Mission Barrio Adentro?

The Cuban-supported Barrio Adentro Mission (Mission Into the Neighborhood) —launched in April 2003 with 58 physicians—is one of several social welfare missions initiated by the Chávez government. It aims to bring healthcare, dental care and physical training to the most marginalized in Venezuela. Barrio Adentro is an attempt by the government to use the nation’s oil wealth to fund the provision of universal healthcare, which is guaranteed in the consitution. By 2005, more than 20,000 Cuban doctors, health workers and physical trainers were working in the program.

Mission Barrio Adentro has required the organization and active participation of poor communities. Neighbourhoods form local health committees (Comités de Salud) that manage the clinics. Local families often house and feed the Cuban doctors and other medical staff and some small clinics work directly out of a converted section of a family dwelling. In addition to being able to access clinics, poor Venezuelans can also purchase drugs at an 85 per cent discount in government subsidized ‘boticas’.

In its first 18 months, the program made services available to 17 million Venezuelans and Chávez was praised by the director of the Pan American Health Organization for his leadership in health. For many Venezuelans this has been the first time they have received medical attention.
(snip/)

http://www.arsn.ca/bolivarian_corner/barrio_adentro.htm



"Mission Barrio Adentro" has placed 13,000 (yes,
thirteen thousand) Cuban doctors in barrios where
most people had no medical attention before.
Virtually every community now has a doctor who
attends free of charge, and many people have been
flown to Cuba for surgeries. In return, Cuba
receives cheap oil.

[happydreams]

16. I agree, Chavez is being a little to accomodating.

[Peace Patriot]

18. Two reasons: 1) about 95% of Venezuelans are Catholic. 2) why have

enemies you don't need?

Venezuela has one, retired Opus Dei Cardinal, who keeps spewing venom at Chavez. He spent most of his career in Rome, and was forced to retire over the Vatican banking scandals of the '80s. The rest of the Venezuelan church leaders have been pretty quiet about Chavez, minding their own business; and the grass roots clerics and church members (most of the country) tend more toward Liberation Theology.

Bear in mind that 60% of this Catholic population has repeatedly voted for Chavez--who, by the way, does not rule the country alone. They also voted for a pro-Chavez legislature, and for Chavez's government in general--a non-corrupt, leftist government that prides itself on citizen participation and on representing everyone in the country, not just the few rich people.

It's about as unfair to accuse all the priests and nuns in Venezuela of being medievalists and inquisitors, as it would be to accuse all whites in the South today of being bigots and slave-owners. Times change. The church hierarchy in Rome is still draconian, anti-women, and full of delusions about itself. And the Pope sits at the top of that male hierarchy. But the situation "on the ground," so to speak, is much more complex, and not all bad, by any means. Venezuelans are Catholic in the same sense that Americans are Englishmen. We speak that language. We adopted much of English law. We were once a colony. Our Founders were all Englishmen and Englishwomen. And even many of our notions of democracy can be said to derive from the English (i.e, the Magna Carta, etc.). Catholicism--and Spain--are a good part of Venezuela's heritage; the other part being indigenous Indian. You can't really disentangle Venezuela and the Church--unless you go the violent route, say, of Soviet Russia--which I doubt would ever occur in Venezuela, and wouldn't work, if it was tried. Chavez--and all progressives--have to live with it. He is a Catholic himself.

I suspect his meeting with the Pope might have had something to do with Cardinal Lara's fascist sniping.--and maybe also the Bushites' sniping and their Negropontean plans for more U.S. violence against Latin American (which I'm sure they have). The "church"--as a collective of people, of Venezuelans--is NOT anti-Chavez, obviously. The most rightwing and political faction of the Church hierarchy--led by dinosaurs like Lara--IS. They are fascists. The Church itself--as represented by the Pope--has to be careful not to alienate the vast population of the country, by spitting on their quite peaceful, democratic revolution. And Chavez obviously wants a peaceful society--and a minimum of enemies--otherwise he wouldn't be meeting with the Pope.

[Peace Patriot]

17. Thanks for posting the real news, Bridget Burke!

DUers would be wise to simply DISBELIEVE EVERY WORD printed in the war profiteering corporate news monopoly press about Hugo Chavez. I've been watching this story for several years, and I can tell you, without reservations, that we are getting royally lied to and deliberately dis-informed about this man, about Venezuela, and about the peaceful, democratic, leftist revolution that is sweeping Latin America.

If you want informative commentary about this matter, try: www.venezuelanalysis.com. It's an advocacy site, but not rabidly so. And it is very intelligently written and edited. I think what their writers have to say--and there are a great variety of them--is a lot closer to the truth than ANYTHING you will read in our corporate press--which is often just plain lying about Chavez, and is full of almost unbelievable venom toward him. I've wondered about the venom. I haven't seen anything like it since their campaign against Saddam Hussein. And Chavez has done NOTHING to deserve it--except to get HONESTLY elected, and to advocate for the poor. I think the venom may result from the Corporate Rulers' realization that they have "lost" South America--and the natural resources, slave labor and easy-to-control fascist governments and rich elites, that they have taken for granted over the decades, created and guaranteed by U.S. trained death squads and other control mechanisms. It's bitterness, I think. The South Americans have broken free, through their own civic efforts--for instance, in organizing TRANSPARENT elections. This revolution is deep and unstoppable. The fascist press and Bushites are trying to chip at the edges--by sniping at Chavez (one of many new leftist leaders throughout the continent, who presents an easy target for them to personalize, because he is so vocal)--and by pouring multi-millions into tiny, rightwing opposition parties, and also by Condi Rice doing her best to stir up any regional rivalries ('divide and conquer'). I'm sure they are planning worse--and may already be involved in worse--but I don't think they will succeed. They really can't afford a war with the entire population of Latin America, which is what they would be facing, if they try violent, Negroponte-like intervention again. (They got away with it in Haiti. They will not get away with it anywhere else--that's my prediction.)

[Judi Lynn]

21. Kick for Bridget's article. Thanks, Bridget.

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[Bridget Burke]

28. Neither Chavez nor Benedict are demons....

Many of the Church's doctrines are sadly out of date. But the insitution hasn't lasted for centuries without the the ability to change, however slowly. And many Catholics "on the ground" are more liberal than official doctrines decree--yet. But say "Catholic" & many come up with knee-jerk mentions of The Inquisition. In fact, I've come to expect it!


Both men are just trying to get along despite their disagreements.

[IndianaGreen]

20. The Pope threatened to sent an albino monk on a murderous rampage

for the glory of Opus Dei.

:P

[IndianaGreen]

19. The Pope wants rape and incest victims to carry pregnancy to term

How dare Chavez and his supporters side with the victims instead of the Church? What will they do next, prosecute pedophile priests?

BTW, on the occasion of the premiere of "The DaVinci Code" you all should know that Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls is a member of Opus Dei.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

26. I already said that Navarro is Opus Dei.

Cue ominous music! Of course, you're swallowing his account in the meeting 100%.

Chavez & the Pope had a mixed discussion. They both have their agendas but want to work together. There was apparently more positive interaction than negative.

[Judi Lynn]

22. How refreshing to see a world leader who doesn't try to suck up to

religious community leaders, like our own right-wing, and, yuck, some Democrats.

I loved reading he called the Venezuelan opposition-loving church hierarchy a "tumor." Absolutely sublime.That may be a little flattering, considering the way at least one of their big names has conducted himself.

[rman]

25. So the pope wants influence in politics

What else is new?

[Bridget Burke]

27. And Chavez wants the approval of the Pope.

They've got some differences. But they aren't declaring war on each other.