Greek and Turkish planes collide

[MaineDem]

Greek and Turkish F-14 jets have crashed into the southern Aegean Sea after colliding in mid-air.

The collision, near Karpathos island, occurred after Greece scrambled a jet to intercept the Turkish aircraft, a Greek government official said.

Turkish television says the Turkish pilot had ejected safely, but there is no official word on the pilots' fate. A search and rescue is under way.

The two countries have a long-standing dispute over the Aegean.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5008178.stm

The BBC broadcast has since said the Turkish pilot was rescued.

[Binka]

1. An F-14 Is A Two Seater Pilot & RIO (Radar Intercept Officer)

There are four people involved if these are American F-14s.

[Stella_Artois]

4. One error

As noted neither country operates the F-14. In fact the only country that does is Iran, and its not even certain that they are airworthy.

[davepc]

33. The US Navy dosent even fly the F-14 anymore.

The last carrier deployment with them ended in March. The last squadrons that flew them are switching to the F/A-18 right now.

[Sweet Pea]

2. Neither Greece nor Turkey

have F-14 jets. They were probably F-16's.

[Posteritatis]

20. The article says as much, yeah. (n/t)

[Bonhomme Richard]

3. Playing chicken I suspect. n/t

[MaineDem]

5. From the Wash Post (an RF4 and an F-16)

The Greek Defense Ministry said a Greek F-16 collided with a Turkish R-F4 jet, about 12 miles south of Karpathos in the eastern Aegean Sea. The Greek jet was based at Souda Air Force base on the island of Crete.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/23/AR2006052300313.html

A reconaissance Phantom?

It also says there were three crew members.

[ConcernedCanuk]

6. Interesting - USA is courting Turkey for bases and support on Iran

.
.
.

and Turkey is aggravating Greece

makes me ponder . . . .

[MaineDem]

8. Plus I would think Turkey needs Greek support for its EU bid

There are a lot of intertangled strands here.

[Orrin_73]

7. This kind of dogfights is going on for years now

this is nothing new.

[Julius Civitatus]

13. For millennia, actually. It's already reflected in Homer's Odyssey

Greece and Persia, basically the same fight, 3,000 years later.

[Orrin_73]

14. Turks are not Persians

they are not even related.

[Julius Civitatus]

15. Ahem... the historical Persians included the Turkey region

The ages-long battle between the Greeks and the Persians has been an allegory for the conflict between east and west.

Today, Persia refers to Iran. The Persian empire of the classic world included many of the countries that surround Iran today. And that includes the vast majority of what today is Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire

[Orrin_73]

16. Anatolia was a part of the persian empire but

the turks came from central asia. We (turks) are not related to both the greeks and persians.

[Julius Civitatus]

17. Again... Turkey was part of the Persian Empire

How else do you want me to say it? I'm not saying Turks today are Persians. As a matetr of fact, I have not claimed that in any of my posts. Why are you so defensive?

Move on.

[Orrin_73]

18. Lately some persians claim that turks are infact persian

because turkish has many persian loan words.
Turkey was first termed by venetians in the 11th century.

[Ghost Dog]

19. Interesting and useful information,

thank you both!

[One Honest Guy]

27. You have to understand Orrin_73, that your average American

is pretty fucking stupid when it comes to grasping stuff like ethnicities, nationalities, and understanding how cultural migrations work. You are for all intents and purposes, apparently, Persian! America is full of people who have no fucking idea who they are. For many being an "Americans" means nothing. America has this peculiar type of identity crisis.

I love messing with people (Americans of course) who claim that they are Irish or Norwegian, or similar. When in reality only connections with those far off places they have is that their grand-grand-grand parents hailed from there. I always ask: "Oh, Norwegian? Hmm, what part of Norway are you from? Where in Norway where you born and raised?" You should see the looks on their faces! They usually follow up that they are only 17.893% Norwegian, and in actuality they are 4.015% Puerto Rican, 11.448% German, and 0.938% Native American as well. I try not to laugh, of course.

[Odin2005]

44. The people of Turkey are mostly Islamicized and Turkicized...

Greeks, Armenians, and various ancient Anatolian peoples. What I've read says that the average Anatolian has only 3% central Asian ancestry.

[Chicago1]

9. What is else is new: GREECE VS. TURKEY

Well,

This is nothing new in the cold war between Greece and Turkey.

IF THOSE BLASTED TURKS KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM, THEY BETTER KEEP THEIR HANDS OFF OF GREECE AND THE GREEK PEOPLE.


THE GREEK PEOPLE HAVE SUFFERED ENOUGH WITH THESE IDIOTS.


START THE REVOLUTION
START THE IMPEACHMENT

[Renew Deal]

10. Blood thursty turks

They should learn how to fly their planes in their own territory.

[Kagemusha]

11. To posters #9 and #10:

Enlightened. Real, REAL enlightened.

Just wanted to say that. (Sigh)

[Endangered Specie]

31. Well when you slaughter a million people...

spend 90 years denying it, and make it a crime to do admit to it... I think some not so kind feelings are perchance understandable.

[Orrin_73]

12. Right, blame it on the Turks

"blood thirsty Turks", any more bigoted accusations against Turks???? Greeks are innocent according to you, I presume.

[ATHENIAN]

21. Greetings to all...

Ok, here's the deal!

Yes the Greeks as someone said... are NOT to blame?... Greeks have been butchered and exploited and occupied for 400 years by ottomans that became known as turks not as someone said here hundreds of years ago but roughly 80 years ago... check history then come back and sound intelligent.

The Aegean Sea is Greek and has been since the beginning of time but also by international treaties... the barbarian turks have no place in it, as they do not in Cyprus the only occupied sovereign country in Europe... again look it up and all the UN resolutions against them then come back and apologize for your ignorance.

The genocides on Greeks and Armenians and Kurds and many others in the millions does not exactly make them angels now or animals that can be trusted now do they... look it all up then speak!

The map someone displayed here of the persian empire includes Greece, that is wrong as Greece included the persian empire in its own not the other ways around... if that were the case there would be no west but just one huge east... look up and weep and sound intelligent like I said.

The planes were f 16s and a spy rf 4...

Finally, much more posted here is, without wanting to insult anyone, simply ignorant!

Last but not least, lets all be thankful to Greece for bringing 'mankind' out of the caves and down from the trees with civilization on all levels... now you can check that one out too.

A

[Orrin_73]

24. Ignorant tool

go back to stormfront!

[Renew Deal]

36. What you just experienced is an authentic Greek.

I can read it in the phrasing. Athenian didn't say what he meant in the nicest way, but he is pretty accurate. The Turks have a record of savagery. The most recent example, Kurds. But Armenians and Greeks weren't that long ago.

[Sufi Marmot]

37. Turkish savagery against the Greeks?

You mean like how after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire the Greeks tried to invade and annex a large chunk of Anatolia and got their asses handed to them at The Battle of Sakarya, followed by their retreat from Smyrna (Izmir) in disarray. Greco-Turkish War. I'm not convinced the Greeks were any less savage than the Turks in this case.

[Renew Deal]

38. 400 years of Turkish occupation

You can cherry pick incidents all day. I don't need to. What happened with Armenia? What will happen if the Kurds in Iraq get too frisky?

[Sufi Marmot]

40. Well if you want to go back 400 years...

...why not go all the way back to Alexander the Great, what with all the conquering and pillaging?
Armenia? Yeah, it was a genocide carried out by elements of the dying Ottoman government. I just don't think its fair to be prejudiced against modern Turks for events that occurred before the Republic was formed.

[Orrin_73]

42. After 400 years of Turkish occupation thre wer still greeks

in Greece, while after just a decade after the greek independence all the turks (500000) in greece were massacred.

[Orrin_73]

41. There is also the turkish side of the events

the real savagery is the greek way. Hundreds of thousands of turks were massacred during the greek independence and during the ww1, but dead turks dont count to turks. There is nothing we turks have to aplogize to no one!

[Bhaisahab]

29. wait a sec.. greeks "brought" mankind out of caves?

wow. give me a postal address so i can send you a medal of appreciation.

by the by, the Aztec, Chinese, and Indus Valley civilizations predated Greek civilization by couple of thousand years, if not more. you can check THAT up my friend.

[One Honest Guy]

34. I think he means classical Greeks.

Not only is his statement absurd to the point of hilarity, but modern Greeks probably have anywhere between zero and zilch of same genetic makeup, when comparing them to ancient Greeks. But, you see, that's how your average ultra-nationalist works. They take your average, run-of-the-mill nationalism and feeling of belonging and intensify it by about a thousand times. Kind of like Nazis did.

I deal with these types of ultra-nationalist a lot. Whether they are Greek, Bulgarian, German, British, or whatever.

They all exhibit similar symptoms. Including but not limited to: revising historical events and inserting their own pseudo-historical truths (supercharged historical revisionism), enthusiastic hate of any minorities (whether religious, ethnic, or racial), fear and distrust of neighboring nations, and finally, they have utmost contempt for anybody that stands up to them, which is motivated by pure fear.

[Bhaisahab]

35. You got that right OHG

We have the same problem with ultranationalists in India - where the Hindu right falsifies and distorts history to "prove" that the Muslim period of Indian history was a "dark age", whilst all was hunky-dory before 12 century AD. Like the Right everywhere, they believe the solution to India's innumerable problems is but one - kill the Muslims and send their bodies to Pakistan.
I have zero tolerance for such shitheads.

[saigon68]

39. Oops someone laid the

coup de grâce on this poster

[nealmhughes]

22. Make up and play nice

Turkey is a modern secular republic, not a continuation of the Ottoman Empire! Much of what is now Turkey was once Greek, Slavic and even Celtic speaking before it was Turkish speaking. Turks from Turkey are more a nationality than an ethnic group, united by common factors such as religion (Sunni Islam), language (Turkish) food and drink, traditional native costume, etc. In fact, Greece and Turkey have often overlapped in territory and culture. Now in the modern Greek Republic and the modern Turkish Republic, we must be rational and admit that the Byzantine Empire survived almost to the 16th Century in Trebizond and the former Greek city of Smyrna is now the Turkish city of Izmir as of only 1922. Salonica was once Thessalonike as in the Bible book and Greeek. After that it became a Slavic city where the Apostles to the Slavs, Cyril and Methodius went to learn to speak Slavic and invented the Cyrillic alphabet! After that it became a Turkish city and Kemal Ataturk was born there! At the same time the majority of the inhabitants were actually Sephardic Jews until Hitler massacred them in the Second World War... In short, modern Greeks, Bulgarians and Turks have shared a large chunk of where Europe meets Asia. Do people rationally truly believe that there is a "pure" Southeastern Slavic, Greek or Turkish race when they all look the same, have very similar folk customs and a shared heritage in antiquity?
Modern Greece and Turkey are not ancient Greece or even the modern Ottoman Empire. They are not successor states to them. They are products of the 19th and 20th Century and it is time for them both to admit the truth, share some grape leaves and raki/ouzo and make peace and become part of a democratic united Europe.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julius Civitatus]

25. You need to stop being so RUDE

Your manners and politeness in this forum are lacking. If you want anyone to take you seriously at all, you need to stop being such an @sshole to everyone in the thread.

People may agree or disagree. People may have differences of opinion and points of view; yo u are simply rude, and your two posts show nothing but arrogance and disdain to the rest of the folks in this conversation.

Keep it up; you won't last too long here.

[One Honest Guy]

28. Greek ultra-nationalists, what are you going to do?

I deal with people like that on a daily basis. You know: mY coontrY is beeger Den yOUURs!~~!

Cattle manners and all that.

Hey ATHENIAN, ultra-nationalism is so 19th century.

Don't let your friends be ultra-nationalists and drive.

[Orrin_73]

26. The only barbarian here is you.

Why did you actually join DU, Athenian? Go somewhere else where you can spit your hate, I advice frerepublic. There are many more like you over there.

[nealmhughes]

30. Let's Remember,

Turkey and Greece are charter members of NATO....just like Denmark or the UK and the USA. They are soon going to be in the EU together. Europe and NATO need to settle Cyprus (that is what this has all been about) and cooperate for a while, um, might I suggest forever?
Turkey is most probably not going to turn Christian in the next few centuries. Greece and Bulgaria and Macedonia are not going to become Moslem majority any time soon, either. Cypriots are probably going to stay divided in religion. Why can't all of us stop equating that section of the globe with an Empire that is as defunct as Austria-Hungary is now? The sultan is long gone, and all the pashas and beys with him. The Ataturk won. It is a shame that both countries (Greece and Turkey) keep on feuding over events that were settled in the 1920s. It would be like Germany still being bitter over Alsace/Lorraine becoming German in 1871... They got over it, starting in 1945, and even are now both in the EU and NATO.
The Ottoman Empire is about as meaningful for today as is the elevation of the Prince-Bishop of Montenegro to King at the turn of the 20th Century. Turkey and Montenegro are republics, as is Greece and the USA.
Look at what the Romantic von Herder stuff has done to the world! Nationalism needs to be kept in check by Enlightenment thought. It's great to have a "special" costume to wear to folkloric events, special foods that mean "home" to an individual, etc. but we are all supposedly a cosmopolitan community of allied democracies these days in the Americas and Europe. Let's all break out the cheese, olives, grapes and go to the beach together.

[Bhaisahab]

32. welcome to DU nealmhughes

liked your post.

[Oender]

43. article from turkish newspaper Milliyet

Hello, I have read your previous posts. I would like to give a comment about the plane crash.
The original article is turkish. But I will try to translate as much as I can.

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/05/25/yazar/zbirand.html

Article written by the turkish reporter Mehmet Ali Birand :

WAS IT WORTH FOR HUMAN'S LIFE ?

I am writing this article to turkish and greek politicians and to Turkish and Greek General Staff.

I have a simple question :

Was it worth for the death of a 37 year old pilot Kostas Iliakis ?

A family has been ruined.

Well what have you proven?

We all knew and waited that such an event would occur.

And it happened.

Don't say it is for the homeland. It is nothing about homeland.

If you wished, turkish and greek politicians and generals, if you really wished you could prevent this.

Well what have you proven ?

Did Greek General Staff have proven that the Greek Air Space on Aegean is 10 miles?

No.

As you know, while the Sea Space is 6 miles nobody (all countries including Turkey) would accept
the 10 miles Air Space.

Well what has won Turkey ?

Did Turkey has proven that the Greek Air Space is 10 miles?

No.

Both Ankara and Athens have been playing this game for years. They are risking lives of our young pilots and million dollar air planes. Greeks do it for saying : "We have tought the agressive Turks a lesson, we have protected the Greek Air Space.". We do it for being proud of "preventing Greek expansion"

If they wish they could play this game without risking human life.

Turkish Airforce can fly between 6-10 mile range once per month may be 2-3 times per year.

The important thing is to show your flag. You don't be more right if you make hundred sorties.
In fact it doesn't matter if you fly 1-2 times or 500 times.

In the same way the Greek Airforce could do it without engaging mock dogfights. They could follow from a safe range, and still defend their claims.

Turkish and Greek diplomats and generals should take a lesson from the death of Kostas Iliakis
and in the memory of him they should finish their 6-10 miles discussion. If they could not, hey should limit their sorties with a few flights.

This should be a lesson.

If no action would be taken these crashes will repeat. Then what would the real responsibles say ?

They are times for heroism, but nobody does have a right for such waste.

Turkish and Greek Media should stop this funny patriotism race and pressure their leaders for preventing these events.

Turkish and Greek General Staff should do what politicians and diplomats couldn't and either stop this russian roulet or find ways for minizing the risks.

Don't waste our youths for nothing.

[Odin2005]

45. Ugh, I hated the Turkish nationalist BS on the history forums I post at.

I don't want to run into that crap on DU *MOANS*