Chavez angers opposition leaders

[bemildred]

CARACAS, Venezuela - Flush with oil profits, President Hugo Chavez handed public workers $3 billion in Christmas bonuses 1 1/2 months early, angering opposition leaders who called it part of a cynical pattern of public handouts ahead of a December presidential election.

Opponents said the government spending spree includes free commuter train rides, a free rock concert, and a powerful propaganda machine that has painted pro-Chavez slogans on buses and handed out T-shirts bearing the image of the former paratroop commander known affectionately as "El Comandante."

Chavez did not attend Wednesday's ceremony where the bonuses were announced. But during the inauguration of a medical clinic broadcast on state television, he wished Venezuelans happy holidays, saying everyone would soon be singing local carols called "gaitas" and eating "hallacas," corn flour tamales wrapped in plantain leaves and shared among family and friends throughout December.

"The beginning of the holiday season: November and December. Today the gaitas begin to ring out and we can eat one or two hallacas," Chavez said.

Yahoo

[BootinUp]

1. nice operation hes got goin there. eom.

[John Q. Citizen]

10. Yes. And he was elected, unlike our dear leader....n/t

[BootinUp]

11. Somehow

I get the feeling you think their elections and government are better run than ours, and that it is a result of you preferring Chavez over Bush. I would caution that at least from what I can tell Chavez has even more power over the government of his country than Bush does in ours. I don't like any government that gives too much power to one man.

[stepnw1f]

13. Well, Then You Dislike the American Government More... (nt)

[bobbie]

72. Well the American Gov't is more hateful that the Venezualen gov't

Do you have any idea how many deaths and dictators our CIA has been responsible for in their covert coups and assassinations? Between them and the FBI:

JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcolm X, countless victims in Guatamala, Iran, Chilli, Vietnam,...

[sapper]

117. Can you back that claim up? NT

[Judi Lynn]

118. You owe it to yourself to start reading. It would give you the information

you need so you'll understand what other people are discussing.

[EFerrari]

14. Then you might want to do a little research on Venezuela

because their elections and their government are better run than ours.

There are also several documentaries on the net. One was shot by two filmmakers who just happened to be caught up with the Chevez people when our well run government tried to oust Chavez in 1992 - "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"; The other is a Greg Pallast piece that disclosed that dispite US backing and investment, the Chavez "opposition" gets no love from the people, only from the elite in Venezuela. I believe that one is called 'In Search of Bolivar's Sword".

[BootinUp]

16. Your suggestion is appreciated

So you have confidence in their short lived constition, the one that Chavez seems able to rewrite at will, more so than our own?

I will keep my eyes open for those documentaries.

[Solon]

18. Why do you state lies as if they were facts?

So you have confidence in their short lived constitution, the one that Chavez seems able to rewrite at will, more so than our own?

The Venezuelan constitution was written up by an assembly that was elected, a total of 131 people. Then the Constitution was ratified by REFERENDUM, with a 71.78% of the vote.

Spouting off without the facts is just embarrassing, if you don't like Chavez, fine, but damn, don't make up shit about him, that just makes YOU look stupid.

[BootinUp]

24. "seems able". meaning however he did it

it was his agenda and he had the political support. But I probably should make a better case for points like that. A strong leader with super high popularity can sway these things (parliamentary votes) no matter for the good or bad. Do you not agree? I am not an expert on Venezuela, I will try to qualify my opinions accordingly.

[Solon]

32. Depends on what you are talking about...

First, the way you framed it was dishonest, admit that, you made it seem as if Chavez wrote the constitution itself, or even had INPUT in the process. He didn't, at best, he simply supported the idea for reform, and set up a framework in which it could be rewritten. After that, the constitution was written as every constitution is written in democratic societies, through compromise.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that the Constitution of Venezuela can be amended by Parliamentary action, that simply isn't the case, it can only be amended through referendum. Also, while Chavez is popular, he doesn't rule with an iron fist, if an Amendment were particularly egregious, even if he supported it, I strongly doubt it would pass.

Hell, there were protests for and against certain things to be put in the Venezuelan constitution as the constitutional assembly was in session. One was weather the job title of "homemaker" was a value added vocation, and therefore covered under social security. Women protested outside the meeting place for the assembly, for days, but they eventually got it added in, one of the few countries in the world that recognizes homemaker as a real job.

[Judi Lynn]

37. Surely wish people would look into recent Venezuelan history BEFORE making

declarations about how the Venezuelan government works.

The legislation concerning homeworkers was groundbreaking. Very, very interesting.

[bobbie]

70. Fighting the good fight I see Judi

:yourock:

[roody]

86. Maybe Chavez' agenda IS the people's agenda.

I know it is hard to imagine given our circumstances here in the US.

[BootinUp]

88. I did not try to make a case for the reverse

did I?

[sapper]

119. $3Billion Christmas bonus will get one lots of support... NT

[drdtroit]

136. Kinda like tax breaks to the top 1%, huh?

:patriot:

[EFerrari]

20. You may not know that the points you are repeating are

US government talking points.

http://tinyurl.com/p7d4o = link to "Finding Bolivar's Heir" / Palast, aired on LinkTv

http://tinyurl.com/y7tnkx = link to "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised /

[BootinUp]

21. I get information from as many reliable sources

as I can. Reliable meaning as reliable as I can find. Thanks for the cheap shot though.

[EFerrari]

27. Not a cheap shot. Look at how hard it is to get information

on what is really going on in Oaxaca as we type. It is hard to get good info on BushCo's enemies, especially in Latin America. No insult intended.

[TankLV]

113. Hey - if it's deserved, you got it!

[PeaceProgProsp]

36. I'm not sure the Constitution has been amended since '99.

And Chavez definitely cannot amend it unilaterally, and the president can't even initiate an amendment. There are two processes for amending the constitution depending on whether it's an amendment to one of two levels of constitutional provisions.

The higher level must be initiated by a referendum. The lower level can be initiated by the legislature.

[BootinUp]

40. This is all very interesting

Many here obviously have the opinion that Chavez government is a great thing for Venezuela. I have an open mind on the issue. I will say this, that not having a strong opposition party is not necessarily a good thing. If the people are getting accurate information about their government then it should function well enough. The problem with no strong opposition party is you never know when these things breakdown.

[Judi Lynn]

45. The "opposition" party has controlled Venezuela for ages, until

Venezuela FINALLY was able to elect a man of the people.

If you took the time to read what's available, you'd know there is a very powerful opposition in Venezuela: it controls ALL the mass media, business, etc., etc., etc, almost everything there, except for the massive poor majority, and it wants that control back. _{George W. Bush} is doing everything in his power, with our tax money, to financially back them in their efforts to grab back the reigns of power.

How you could avoid knowing this is mysterious, but please don't continue passing around misinformation.

[BootinUp]

47. You can ask

me to stop discussing things.

[Judi Lynn]

48. You're not really "discussing" if you're overlaying reality with misinformation.n/t

[BootinUp]

49. Where exactly was that?

[Judi Lynn]

51. Maybe there's another way one can "read" your post:

Many here obviously have the opinion that Chavez government is a great thing for Venezuela. I have an open mind on the issue. I will say this, that not having a strong opposition party is not necessarily a good thing. If the people are getting accurate information about their government then it should function well enough. The problem with no strong opposition party is you never know when these things breakdown.
(snip/)

#40, I believe.

What would you suggest you meant if it were not to imply there's no organized opposition to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela? These people even have the pResident of the U.S. funneling U.S. taxpayers' money to them, and they ARE the very wealthiest of Venezuela's citizens, to start with.

I can't see any other possible interpretation.

On edit:

It's good to emphasize, they WERE the power running the Venezuelan goverment for a VERY long time, until 1999. They remain determined to take over again, as soon as possible.

[BootinUp]

53. I didn't say "organized"

I said strong opposition, as in the elections aren't real lopsided and the parliment represents the major parties well and Chavez isn't somehow gaming the system, buying votes or whatever. Look, when I see a lot of DU'ers get all excited about Chavez I am skeptical and I don't mind saying so. I am always interested in learning more and reading others points of view. In this thread it is clear most people think Chavez is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Call me a skeptic.

Is it a good thing for the poor in his country to be seeing some increased pay, low gas prices, etc. Of course.

[Judi Lynn]

55. Invest some time researching the subject, and you will be able to

clearly know where you stand.

In the meantime, it's simply rude to accuse people who HAVE researched, and paid attention of being inordinately fond of a political leader.

That's just underhanded.

People who think highly of his actions, decisions, do so because they understand them, and they understand their impact and purpose. Has nothing whatsoever to do with affectionate attachment. Don't attempt to devaluate these Democrats. It's out of place.

[BootinUp]

58. Rude is something you seem to have experience with

You can be as snippy as you wish, doesn't faze me. I didn't accuse people of anything, I observed what is clear to everyone who reads this thread. There is nothing I said that you had to take as a belittling comment, that was your choice.

[bobbie]

76. Oh Jim, at least be able to dispute people in an informed manner

An informed difference of opinion can be respected. Just sputtering about that sinister ol' Chavez is silly.

Read a little on this subject. Ask yourself why, if America is so great, the US gov't has tried to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Venezuela in a CIA coup. And ask yourself if this might possibly have something to do with his oil policy and the fact that his country is one of the biggest exporters of oil. Oil Oil Oil... Ask yourself if the real reason he pissed off the ruling elite is that he tried to raise the minimum wage and the private owners of the TV stations became furious.

What happened before Aristide of Haiti was overthrown in a US based coup? He tried to raise the minimum wage. See a pattern?

A good follow up question is:

Does the ruling elite hate Prez Chavez because he resides over an actual democracy, not a pretend democracy like ours, and has socialistic leanings? That means spreading the wealth to poor people instead of letting the richest of the rich keep all the cash.

The web is ideal for research. If you don't have a grasp of the most basic details on the subject you're pontificating on, then you might run the risk of looking lazy in addition to uninformed.

[BootinUp]

87. I did not pontificate or take any strong "uninformed" positions for

you to rail at me over. I wish you "left wing" folks would lighten up! I am not an enemy.

[TankLV]

114. Point out where Judi was being "rude" and "snippy".

The only one we see behaving that way is YOU...

[Threedifferentones]

120. He uses state money to fund MASSIVE election campaigns

and denies his opponents that benefit. He claims to be a socialist, a believer in economic equality, but he allies himself with religous whackjobs like the Iranian government who obviously care NOTHING for economoic equality, let alone women's rights or other social rights.

The Bush's and the rest of the Republican elite are awful, but if you believe Chavez is less power hungry than them you stand a good chance of ending up in a similar spot as Stalinists and Maoists.

[Judi Lynn]

121. Be good enough to provide some information on Chavez using

government funds for his massive election campaigns. A charge like that doesn't stand on it's own: it needs sources here.

Distance yourself from warning DU'ers they are similar to "Stalinists" and "Maoists." You are not welcome to indulge yourself in personal attacks on Democrats here.

[Threedifferentones]

127. Well I read the article posted

which mentioned the "powerful propaganda machine that has painted pro-Chavez slogans on buses and handed out T-shirts bearing the image of the former paratroop commander known affectionately as El Comandante" that the government has funded. And this is of course in addition to the worker "bonuses" that he is moving from Christmas to just before election time this year, in addition to increasing their value. That is clearly a massive government funded election campaign, I did not mention the source before because I assumed anyone reading my post would have read the article at the start of the thread.

Stalin and Mao gained early support by easing some of the peasantry/working class's burden for a while, until they had enough power to ignore them and take total control. It is a mistake to claim that Chavez will not end up ruling like them, no matter what his history. If he started out as an idealist, he is still certainly capable of letting his desire to stay in control get ahead of his desire to help his poor countrymen.

[Judi Lynn]

131. Of course read the article. Didn't assume for a moment what the

"opposition" SAYS about Hugo Chavez carries much weight, unless more information is included indicating HOW these items were funded. They have tossed around absurd charges from the very first. He's their enemy. They take money from U.S. taxpayers to finance their efforts to overthrow him. They are utterly vicious, contemptible, racist, elitists.

DU'ers who have actually DONE their homework know what they're capable of, and it's not wholesome. I don't take AP's claim from the "opposition" as the PROOF of anything whatsoever. Who on earth WOULD, normally?

Opponents said the government spending spree includes free commuter train rides, a free rock concert, and a powerful propaganda machine that has painted pro-Chavez slogans on buses and handed out T-shirts bearing the image of the former paratroop commander known affectionately as "El Comandante."
(snip)

I repeat, don't try to pull your red-baiting here. It amounts to personal attacks on DU'ers, and it's actually contrary to D.U. regulations. No matter how you attempt to sneak it by, comparing DU'ers to "Stalinists" and "Maoists," as stilted and stupid as it is, is very underhanded and dirty pool.

[Threedifferentones]

141. The comparison was meant to shock and offend, because of the

severity of the situation. I know Chavez has taken many steps to stop foreign people and corporations from exploiting Venezuela, and that he continues to enjoy popular support because he has made life better for many of his countrymen. However, many American socialists believed in the Soviet and Chinese revolutions because they could not see the corruption of the leaders through their idealism, and because they tended to believe that socialist governments would, if nothing else, remain better than what they replaced. Of course in the long run both governments turned into brutal dictatorships. With Chavez attempting to remove the constitutional limit on presidential terms so that he can remain in power indefinitely, instead of supporting a socialist successor, we would be fools not to consider the possibility that he will take a similar route in the future.

Never accuse me of red-baiting again. Wealth redistribution is my highest political priority, and few things infuriate me more than the way most Americans react to socialist ideas. I never intended to criticize socialism, only the leaders that have misused it to gain power, and Chavez may yet become such a leader, only time will tell.

Oh, and if anything I write ever breaks any regulations here at DU, please tell a mod so that the offending post will be removed, instead of just insulting me.

[Flanker]

57. Shoot then, I am venezuelan and follow this as closely as anyone

eom

[Judi Lynn]

60. Hi, Flanker. Now I understand why it is you have always been so well

informed, in EVERY instance!

I always have paid very close attention to your posts, as it seemed you spoke with unusual authority. Now I know why!

Very nice to learn.

[BootinUp]

61. I will the next time.

I think I have learned enough for one afternoon, thanks.

[bobbie]

81. Yes! A real Venezuelan. Must probe...

Flanker, would you mind telling us how you feel about Prez Chavez?

Do you have a sense of how other Venezuelans feel about him?

How do different groups of people feel about him? (Poor, Indian, Rich,...)

Thank you!

[Lil Red]

123. With all due respect, none of the posts have addressed

President Chavez's personality; they have been about the legal structure of the state in question. You are the only one here arguing from an emotional basis.

Oh, and the country that lacks a strong opposition party and is suffering from one party rule is the U.S.A.!

Lil Red:eyes:

[Ken Burch]

126. Basically, Jim, the reality in Venezuela is this...

If any of Chavez' opponents defeat him, they will move Venezuela to the right and the poor will lose ground. It will be as much of a disaster as Nicaragua has been since 1990.

Also, like it or not, Chavez has been the only Latin American leader who has been able to put the globalization imperialists on the defensive. He is a useful counterbalance, and at the moment he's the only one the poor majority of the Earth have.

[PeaceProgProsp]

54. It's not Chavez's fault that people hate the opposition.

Did you know that in his first election, the opposition party picked candidates with high approval ratings UNTIL they were picked to run against him. They picked a former Ms Venezuela who was once major of Caracas. Her approval rating dropped to something like 6 when she was announced as the candidate.

In any event, I don't think the constitution has changed since '99, and Chavez couldn't change it unilaterally if he wanted to, and he can't even initiate changes.

[FormerDem06]

62. Was the constitution amended when Chavez almost doubled the size of the courts

And then appointed the new judges and the first 17 alternates by a majority vote and without revealing those names until the day of the vote.

He runs his party, they have control of the legislature, executive branch and courts. It is about the same as here I guess.

[Flanker]

65. The 99 constitution does not say anything about the number of Judges

Have a look

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:ZL3qoo_1xssJ:www.vheadline.com/printer_news.asp%3Fid%3D6831+Venezuela+constitution&hl=es&gl=ve&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=firefox

However there is considerable controversy since the total was derived from a organic law that can only be repealled by super majority which he had in 2000 when it was elected but defections only gave him a slim majority.

That said the SC did not claim it was unconstitutional, being itself the body that was modified.

The point is moot with the current Assembly.

[FormerDem06]

108. Thank you, I wasn't sure how that occurred....

News here is very, very scarce as far as how things occur down there.

[dkofos]

56. Have you been paying attention to the rewriting of our constitution

[bobbie]

75. Yeah. Why won't the US gov't amend the constitution & dump the electoral college?

Because they don't want us to actually pick a president. Electors can overrule the masses whenever they want. Good safeguard; sure came in handy in 2000. Do they have an electoral college in Venezuela?

[bobbie]

73. "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" -- Excellent look at CIA coup attempt

Highly recommended!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

[John Q. Citizen]

15. Our dear leader was appointed, according to President Carter. I know

there are those who disagree, but I think Jimmy Carter makes a good case.

Chavez enjoys much higher approval ratings than does our dear leader, so I guess his constituents must feel he's doing something right!

Of course, I'm sure there are those that disagree about that, too.

[BootinUp]

17. I think questioning of the election system

especially by someone of Carter's stature is very important. We can do a hell of a lot better no doubt to insure integrity. Its the part about proving it was actually "stolen" where I see problems.

How to put it...Florida voting was so close in 2000 that if Bush farted we would have won in the initial vote count.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. If Harris hadn't criminally disenfrachised the 50,000 voters

(80% black Americans who voted 90% for Gore) we would have won.

Criminals aren't known for not doing crime though, are they?

I want elections that aren't rigged. I want what Venesuela has, in that respect. Former President Carter said it best. Gore won Florida.

[Selatius]

22. If the SCOTUS hadn't shut down the vote, Gore would've won.

If the SCOTUS was so hot and heavy over enforcing the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, then that naturally would've meant a recount of all Florida counties because if one must do it, all must do it. No, they didn't even suggest that much. They simply said stop the count and didn't bother to take the extra step of actually suggesting a remedy. It turns out if all the counties had been counted, Gore would've won.

[BootinUp]

25. Huge tactical error I think

we (Gore) should have requested the full recount initially.

[Peace Patriot]

80. I'm seeing how you think, Jim4Wes. All our votes are now "counted" by

two private corporations, using TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it. The two corporations--Diebold and ES&S--both have very close ties to the Bush regime and to far rightwing causes, including a CEO who was a Bush/Cheney campaign chair and major fundraiser (Diebold), and initial funding provided by rightwing billionaire Howard Ahmanson (ES&S), who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon foundation (which touts the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things).

These are the people who "counted" 80% of the nation's votes in 2004, under a veil of corporate secrecy--a coup that occurred during the 2002 to 2004 period, as the result of $3.9 billion fast-track funding by the Anthrax Congress (engineered by its major crooks, Tom Delay and Bob Ney--abetted by Corporatist 'Democrats' like Christopher Dodd).

So, they set it all up so that the vote counting will be non-transparent and unverifiable ("trade secret" vote tabulation, no paper trail in a third of the country, and wholly inadequate auditing everywhere else--antiquated rules that cannot catch fraud in this secretive, high speed environment), run on extremely insecure and insider hackable voting machines and central tabulators, and you say....

"Its the part about proving it was actually 'stolen' where I see problems."

Problems, indeed. It was SET UP TO BE non-transparent and unverifiable--and it is egregiously, scandalously non-transparent and unverifiable. And you blame the rest of us for not being able to "prove it," while you never mention any relevant facts about the election system or who now controls it.

I see that facts are not your strength. Phrases like "the best thing since sliced bread" are your forte--to describe people who know something about Venezuela and, on the basis of research and facts, can defend it as a good and representative democracy.

Easy phrases that sound like they mean something, but mean nothing.

And now I want to show you what open-minded is like. You have a good point about the weak opposition to Chavez--as to numbers, and as to the nature of his political opposition in Venezuela (some really stupid people, it seems to me). ANYONE can get a big head, and become a tyrant--especially someone who is as popular as Chavez is. And I don't mean passing out Christmas bonuses. I think it's great to see oil money used to help people--which is what Chavez's regime is all about. Far better that it go into workers' pockets than into creating pampered monsters like George Bush, who thinks nothing of slaughtering a hundred thousand people to get more of it. And if Chavez wants to score points with that, fine. He deserves to. He's worked hard, and taken great risks, to see that Venezuela's oil revenues benefit all. He is in constant danger of assassination by the oil barons running our White House because of this public benefit policy. And politics is, in part, being able to HELP your constituents.

No, I mean deeper temptations--the sore temptation to clamp down on the virulent anti-Chavez corporate media, for instance, which openly supported the violent coup against him; temptations to round up the opposition for violating Venezuelan law by taking foreign (U.S.) money for political campaigning; the temptations of slick demagoguery (which such a fine speaker as Chavez must suffer); and the temptations that his vast support may bring, to go too far toward one-man rule--a personality cult.

I think Chavez has resisted these temptations, and is a true democrat. All of his actions support this. And Chavez's government is full of intelligent, creative people--it is by no means a one man show--and is supported by strong, active, grass roots organization. None of these people are fools. They would not support a dictatorship. But the weakness of his opposition bothers me and worries me. They don't provide him with any reasonable criticism. (His supporters actually provide much better criticism.) They seem like a greedy, sniveling lot--who take Bushite money, and use it and other devious means to try to re-gain undeserved power. Chavez could use a good opposition--and he doesn't have one.

Example: I read of a small grocer who complained that the government's subsidized food program (for the very poor) was driving her out of business. A healthy opposition would highlight cases like that, and work for policies that better integrate socialist and business principles.

But Chavez's opposition provides no such constructive criticism. They--like Bush--are just a bunch of pampered and unscrupulous powermongers, who are so used to being the privileged few, they can't even think (and they do a lot of stupid things--like boycotting the last by-elections; talk about shooting themselves in the foot!). They seem to have no loyalty to the country--only to themselves and their own selfish interests.

They are a lot like Bushites. And we may well have the same problem here, if the Democrats ever get back into control. The Bushites are so discredited, who will keep the Democrats honest? (--answer, all of us leftists, I guess.)

Point well taken, Jim4Wes!

Recommended: www.venezuelanalysis.com. It's a good source of alternative info on Chavez, Venezuela and the Bolivarian revolution, pro-Chavez, but well-written, and they sometimes include criticism of Chavez (reasonable, fact-based criticism--not rightwing hooey).

And about this "sliced bread" comment. Yeah, it sometimes feels like "manna from heaven" to read about a democracy that is actually working right, especially in South America, which has suffered so much at the hands of our government and our global corporate predators. It is in truth a joy to see the vast population of the poor and the brown come into their own as a political force, and to be blessed with smart leaders who see the big picture--who understand, for instance, that regional cooperation, strength and self-determination are needed to fend off further interference, and to build a truly democratic and prosperous society.

But don't dismiss this as Chavez worship. It isn't. It's more like worship of democracy--which we could use more of, I think.

[BootinUp]

84. How long did you spend writin that friend?

I can't really argue facts with someone who hits me over the head with six degrees of separation nonsense in such a high handed manner. Its a waste of my time to be honest.

I never used the word "worship". You all are oversensitive overdefensive around here if you ask me (I know you didn't).

[1932]

103. It's a waste of your time to be honest?

[BootinUp]

104. That sure came out badly.

corrected version:

To be honest, debating this subject further with you is waste of my time.

[bobbie]

91. Thank you Peace Patriot for a fantastic post

Viva Venezuela!

[Greyhound]

82. Do the laws of science and math count as evidence to you personally?

If so, then just think of the statistical likelihood of the sum of "unprovable incidents" to swing one way. It just can't happen.

Florida is a (the) prime example.

[BootinUp]

85. But that is such a poor basis to prove anything

please don't particpate as a jury member at any murder trials.

[Greyhound]

105. So you don't understand math, and the answer is no.

Don't feel alone, you're the product of the amerikan edumacashunal system.

[BootinUp]

107. Rrrrr............ight.

A bunch of swags or half truths muddled together do not prove a theory.

If you want to use mathematics to estimate a probability it still does not equal proof. Besides which you have not bothered to share any actual math, its all nothing but hand waving and hyperbole.

Show us your math friend. Pardon me if I do not hold my breath.

[Greyhound]

110. LOL! As if it would make a difference.

Besides, it's been done numerous times before. Here are a few to get you started...

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0813-29.htm
http://ucdata.berkeley.edu: 7101/new_web/VOTE2004/ You have to remove the space following the colon so BBCode doesn't interpret the IP as a smiley
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/columns/executive_tech/article.php/3495176
http://www.organikrecords.com/corporatenewslies/2004efraudsummarytrifold.pdf
http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_2004_Edison-Mitofsky.pdf
http://www.vote.caltech.edu/events/2006/FraudConf/AlvBmk-paper.pdf

I don't expect you to actually read any of these, but maybe I'm wrong.

BTW, there are hundreds of people serving out their prison sentences, after being convicted with no evidence beyond mathematical analysis.

[BootinUp]

111. What I expected

really was your own mathematical summary. Instead you simply link 7 articles here, easy for you to use others work. I don't have time to read all seven links. sorry. But I will make some effort to respond:

The first link:

makes some amazing claims as to vote tallies in certain counties as being facts, but provides no citations for them or the raw data. How am I to verify the claims? If the evidence is as they present, I find it hard to believe that it has not gotten serious review by other journalists or maybe it has and it is in your other links. I simply point out at this time they seem like dubious claims and I do not accept them without further backing up.

And on the study that recounted ballots. What is the point you are making that a recount statewide should have been done? I have already said in this thread that Gore screwed up when he did not request a full recount initially, and then the SCOTUS decision fucked us over. That is different than a stolen election via a election fraud.
____________________________________________

the second link I found this statement:

VOTE 2004

# Working Paper: The Effect of Electronic Voting Machines on Change in Support for Bush in the 2004 Florida Elections
by Michael Hout, Laura Mangels, Jennifer Carlson, and Rachel Best

At the request of the authors, this paper has been removed from this web site.
Comments and Questions may be directed to: [e-mail]
_________________________________________

The third link to the RFK jr article:

I have read most of that, and read and heard rebuttals to it which raises serious doubts about the main support for electronic vote machine manipulation in the article, examination of party line votes vs split ballots. The rebuttals have claimed that examinations of other election results show the split ballots percentage was not unusual. I think the rebuttals need to be answered by the authors of the article.

I do not dispute that vote suppression in Ohio affected the vote tallies, but it is not the kind of thing I would term as a stolen election. It is voter suppression and should be followed up on and corrected. It is not a new thing for sure. The term "stolen election" as I recognize it was connected specifically to the black box election fraud issue. That is how I used it anyways.
___________________________________________

I may look at some of the other links time permitting.

I would also like to remind you that neither Kerry nor Gore nor any Senators disputed the final election results in 2000 and 2004.

__________________________________________

[Greyhound]

112. "you can't win if you don't play" buy lottery tickets...

Good luck, and see you in 2010. :hi:

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. They use electronic voting machines without paper trails

[Judi Lynn]

39. May I refer you to DU'er "Peace Patriot's" INFORMED post, quoted in

post #23, I believe, concerning the Venezuelan voting system:

The irony is that Hugo Chavez is far more elected than George Bush ever was. Chavez was elected, and then re-elected, by big majorities (56-58%--ish) in a US-supported recall election, the most heavily monitored election in the world, with hundreds of observers from the Carter Center, EU election groups, and the OAS--all of whom declared the election fair and square. They have OPEN SOURCE CODE in Venezuela's electronic voting system--that is, anyone may review the computer code by which the votes are tabulated, unlike in the U.S., where, ever since the electronic voting scam, the so-called "Help America Vote Act," brought to us by the two biggest crooks in Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney, during the 2001-2004 period, our votes have been "tabulated" by "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by two rightwing, Bushite corporations, Diebold and ES&S.
(snip)

[Flanker]

50. This is GROSSLY INCORRECT

Not only do all machines print a paper trail but at the end of the day each voting station has 4-5 Machines, 54% of those will be selected by drawing 2 numbers out of a paper hat, and before the result is announced they will audit the paper trail of the two machines selected.

[Judi Lynn]

52. Thanks for the info.! n/t

[Flanker]

59. You're welcome

:)

[bobbie]

71. Oh Jim Jim Jim, can you really fail to see that we've rarely been allowed

To pick a president since *1960*? Were you conscious in 2000, 2002, 2004?

Are the PNACers Americans?

[BootinUp]

79. I'm glad you are so informed on events

I will continue to read your posts with much fascination.

[bobbie]

93. Thanks Jim4Wes

I learn a lot from the other posters here. Damn good thing that those with interest in Chavez can go somewhere to discuss him without the right wing smear campaign. Remember when Pat Robertson suggested someone murder him?

[Judi Lynn]

116. Good one! Isn't it a delight liberals can all count on coming to D.U. to discuss

things important to them without jamming and interruption from idiot right wingers? You just never see them here.....

Very nice, indeed!

[paulk]

122. that's only true if you think that "discussion"

equates to everyone agreeing with you.

And that anyone disagreeing with you is an "idiot right winger".


--------------------

[bobbie]

128. Hey I don't mind informed disagreement about Prez Chavez

But first people should know their facts about the man: The attempted coup against him, the reason the coup failed (enough supporters literally took to the streets and stormed the palace; the palace guards didn't support the coup; people didn't believe the propaganda; he's just too popular...) the reason the majority of Venezuelans love him, the reason the rich Venezuelans who own the TV stations hate him, etc.

If people come to a thread, or start a thread, without knowing such fundamentals I'm afraid they leave themselves open to the charge of "idiot," appended to whatever ideology they spout (right or left).

[paulk]

138. would you accept the argument, then

that someone could be aware of the things you mention and still find Chavez's behavior in this election matter questionable - and not because of those questions be considered an idiot or a right winger?

[Rex]

100. Not true at all.

Chavez does NOT have the power to climb into your computer at anytime, without a warrant or for no apparent reason. Chavez has not suspended the countries constitution nor does it seem he wants to. He pays workers, which he can do under law. Our POTUS, on the other hand, ignores the law when he wants to.

I have to agree with the too much power to one man, no one should have that much power.

[Judi Lynn]

23. You bet he was elected. Some right-wingdings use the fact he was elected

the year following his original election, due to the Venezuelan National Assembly's new constitution, and the necessity for a new election, as an indication he has served an additional full term, thereby muddying the waters considerably, which serves their purpose very well.

Most of them are too stupid, however, to realize the conditions surrounding that election, and simply parrot what their fellow imbeciles are using as conventional "wisdom" in their circle.

DU'er "Peace Patriot" has taken a lot of time to painstakingly explain just WHY Venezuelan elections are known to be clean, and they have been supervised more heavily than the elctions almost ANYWHERE, considering the _Bush administration always tries to cast doubt on Chavez, and election overseers have been invited from everywhere to witness the operation. (You may recall _{George W. Bush} REFUSED to allow international oversight on our own Presidential elections. Damned creepy, isn't it?)

Peace Patriot:

The irony is that Hugo Chavez is far more elected than George Bush ever was. Chavez was elected, and then re-elected, by big majorities (56-58%--ish) in a US-supported recall election, the most heavily monitored election in the world, with hundreds of observers from the Carter Center, EU election groups, and the OAS--all of whom declared the election fair and square. They have OPEN SOURCE CODE in Venezuela's electronic voting system--that is, anyone may review the computer code by which the votes are tabulated, unlike in the U.S., where, ever since the electronic voting scam, the so-called "Help America Vote Act," brought to us by the two biggest crooks in Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney, during the 2001-2004 period, our votes have been "tabulated" by "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by two rightwing, Bushite corporations, Diebold and ES&S.
(snip)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x672348#672715

(My italics and underscoring)

[BootinUp]

28. good information...

although I don't like the idea of open source voting machines, don't like privately owned proprietary either. Code should be proprietary and owned by the government and approved by a panel of independent experts and interested citizens.

[Judi Lynn]

30. Beyond the reach of politics! Absolutely. n/t

[hippiechick]

2. Good for Hugo!

:applause: Keep the people happy, instead of the pols and the corporate cronies.

I like his thought pattern!!

[roody]

90. I am a public school teacher and

would not mind it one bit if the government gave me a bonus. And I even hate Christmas!

[bobbie]

95. Yes, the man is smart and tough

If he wasn't the CIA would have killed him by now. Oh they were so close a few years back...how frustrating for them!

[bemildred]

3. Venezuela to sell heavily discounted oil to D.C.

Venezuela will provide heavily discounted heating oil to about 37,000 low-income families in Maryland, Virginia and the District this winter, Caracas' envoy to the United States said yesterday.

The local jurisdictions are beneficiaries of a greatly expanded program that this winter will assist more than 400,000 families in 16 U.S. states and the District, up from eight states and 180,000 families last year, said Ambassador Bernardo Alvarez Herrera.

Oil provided under the expanded program, first mentioned by President Hugo Chavez during a fiery speech to the United Nations in September, will be distributed through local governments, community centers and churches, and will be offered at 40 percent below the market price.

"This will give people a chance to have additional supply of heating oil," Mr. Alvarez told editors and reporters during a luncheon at The Washington Times. "We are not making as much money as we could be, but extraordinary times require extraordinary measures."

http://wpherald.com/articles/1989/1/Venezuela-to-sell-heavily-discounted-oil-to-DC/Chavex-announced-program-in-his-speech-to-UN.html

[gratuitous]

4. How DARE he?

Doesn't he know that Venezuela's wealth is supposed to be reserved for the elites and the oligarchs? What is he doing letting all the people have a little taste instead of funneling all the money into a dozen overstuffed pockets?

[EFerrari]

5. Commie Pinko Madman!

:rofl:

[Tempest]

6. Chavez is so far ahead, he doesn't need to do this

He's doing it to drive the opposition nuts.

Looks like it's working.

[EFerrari]

12. It's odd to see a national leader act for some other reason than

political expediency, isn't it? :)

[FormerDem06]

63. He is smart too

He gets several of his supporters to run against him, and then they all turn on the true opposition and run them into the ground. Brilliant.

[Judi Lynn]

64. Do you have any information you could post on this maneuver?

It would be helpful if you could post it here.

[Flanker]

66. There are always conspiracy theories one of them is that

there are around 20 official candidates nearly all of them being Chavistas, the most common theory being that if Rosales backs out they will be someone to run against for PR purposes. The thing is that even rightwing candidates like Benjamin Rauseeu (Conde del Guacharo) are considered to be double agents of chavismo.

Of course Chavez feeds this and that is why he is politically brilliant, his opposition opponent in 2000 was a former coup-plotter, personal friend, turned Zulia governor: Francisco Arias Cardenas.



He decided to run against Chavez, lost and remained in the ranks of the opposition before softening his tone, but this year was appointed to





Yup UN Ambassador.

Granted it could all be a choreographed game, however like most conspiracy theories it falls apart, He always remained in the deep opposition for years and in the 2002 coup had this to say when Chavez was barely clinging to power.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AxxHHpsLltI

Near the end he clearly calls the president an assasin/murderer. Chavez is very thick skinned and calculative that is for sure.

Who else has been a target of this conspiracy theory? Aside from Rausseu (polling at 2%) opposition dinosaur Teodoro Petkoff, as a matter of fact it sunk his candidacy, Julio Borges as well, I am somewhat shocked that Rosales has not fallen victim and that may be the #1 reason it is he that is the opposition unity candidate.

[FormerDem06]

109. I am trying to find the link now....

I read an article a while back that said that a few of the candidates in this year's election were already appointed members of the Chavez gov't that he was encouraging to run against it. From my perspective, it helps to syphon off the vots of the opposition by making the field as wide as possible.

But then again there are only three major candidates this year including Chavez, so the rest looks to be just noise. It is frustrating at the lack of news that we can get out of there in our local and national media outlets. It's hard to make a really good and accurate judgement without it.

[shance]

7. Viva Chavez!!!

Chavez has proven himself to be a leader, a humanitarian and an overall good force that wants to do what is in the highest interest of everyone, not just those who already have so much and want to continue to take more from those who don't.

This would seem to be the reason as to why why the Bush Administration is trying to silence him.

[bobbie]

77. Viva Prez Chavez!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO!

[OKthatsIT]

106. VIVA CHAVEZ! Wake up America...you've been sold up river!

[bobbie]

129. I just *knew* that I'd glance at your lame post and see *no* details

If you're going to make bold claims you should at least post supporting evidence. The fact that you can't says all there is to say.

[Judi Lynn]

8. The "opposition" will ALWAYS be furious until they get total control

of the country back in their oligarchical, right-wing mitts, and start stripping away all the progress made by the people of Venezuela during Hugo Chavez's time as their leader.

?

[lumpy]

44. Nice to see indigenous faces running Venezuela.

nt

[Judi Lynn]

46. It's beautiful, isn't it? And it's about time. n/t

[bobbie]

94. Bingo, you nailed it!

He looks like the majority of his consituents. That alone earns him enmity. Add to that the fact that he wants that majority to have a fair share of their nation's wealth and...well he's lucky to have survived the CIA's murder attempts.

[bobbie]

96. Those are fantastic pictures!

Looks like a huge crowd of his constituents, not at all the kind of thing the chimp puppet would subject himself to at his invitation only scripted "appearances."

I wonder if people got arrested at this Chavez rally just for wearing a t-shirt opposing him. I bet not...

[goforit]

9. roflmao!!!!!... Hugo is a ball buster!

[bobbie]

98. Oh no kidding!

The man stood on the floor of the UN and told Americans "your CIA was behind 911." Not that the media moguls let that thru the iron curtain. But I do appreciate the fact that he, unlike our gov't, keeps us informed.

Give 'em hell HuGO!

[Selatius]

26. Opposition leaders are reduced to displaying impotent rage.

They know the majority of Venezuelans support his social policies of poverty relief, health care, public education, job training, tax reform, etc. It pisses them off because they are no longer as free as they were in the past to exploit the situation to make a good profit margin at the expense of everybody else. They wish to return to the days when the government caters to industrialists and bankers more than farmers and workers.

[Judi Lynn]

29. You're right! They miss their "power," and they don't like sharing, especially

with the brown and black people of Venezuela, the ones they expect to know their place and stay out of sight unless they are called.

[paulk]

31. if Bush did this, would it be ok?

:shrug:

[Solon]

33. The situations are far different...

Chavez is polling in the 60+%, Bush can't even get 40%. I mean, if the election in Venezuela was going to be close, yeah, it would be valid to say this was for political purposes only, but then again, all this would do is increase his margin of victory, if it effects the election at all.

Some may call it cheap, but it is also considered good politics, and if it actually helps people, what's the harm?

[0rganism]

35. only if he'd follow through with it

instead, the huge windfalls he promises the general population go straight to his ultra-wealthy top campaign donors.

[Judi Lynn]

43. He yammers eternally about his gifts to the "little man," in the form

of those heavenly "tax cuts," amounting to less than pocket change while the infrastructure has been gutted, and the quality of life nearly destroyed, with millions of people hungry, unemployed, without health insurance, etc., etc., etc.

In the meantime, the economy in Venezuela is improving, the quality of life is finally surging for the poor, for the FIRST TIME, people are receiving medical care, FOR THE FIRST TIME, they have almost eliminated illiteracy altogether, etc., etc., etc.

Some of our slow learners buy what the elitists feed them: it's wrong for the poor to gain assistance, and it's not a healthy government that helps the poor! It all needs to go to the wealthiest 4 or 5%!

Simple minds demand primitive solutions. They all believe what our right-wing tells them: Hugo Chavez is our enemy because our destructive pResident doesn't like him.

[paulk]

67. would you be ok with GW Bush

handing out bonuses to one million govt. employees - bonuses equivalent to 3 months salary - a month before a presidential election? Would you be down with him using the state's resources for not only this, but also painting pro Bush advertisements on public buses and also handing out free pro-Bush t-shirts? Not to mention the free rock concert. Would you call that pandering or trying to influence an election, perhaps... or would you call it "an act of love" as Chavez's VP did? I know it's hard to picture those words coming out of Cheney's mouth, but for the sake of this little exercise, give it a shot.

Or would you say that someone who question's the appropriateness of this sort of thing in a free and fair democratic election is a "slow learner" who demands a "primitive solution" - one who believes everything our left wing tells them - that George Bush is our enemy just because Hugo Chavez doesn't like him?

[Judi Lynn]

68. Do you have links to information on the funding and circumstances

of the bonuses, the free t-shirts, the advertising on the buses? You probably should post it, the way other DU'ers do when they have a point to make.

I don't see _Bush giving out any thing beyond those proposterous "tax cuts" to ordinary people, which were swept away immediately in inflated prices which continued to skyrocket, and in exchange, American infrastructure continues to degrade in front of our eyes, with absolutely no end in sight.

_Bush gives LOTS away, only to the very wealthiest, his "base," as you should admit. He has allowed them to almost destroy the entire country. I will never forget the long, sordid process he embarked upon as soon as he had wormed his way into the White House and started undoing all the hard-won progress in environmental regulation. He's a filthy, vicious ass#ole.

I don't need a leader of another country whom he tried to overthrow to tell me what I already have known since the filthy election theft of 2000.

[paulk]

74. blah, blah, blah

It was in the article, you know, the article this thread is based on. The one the OP linked to? Is that good enough? Of course it's probably not true because it's been mistranslated, or is a right wing source, or some such bullshit - which is your usual argument when you have nothing to say.

The rest of your post is a distraction, not an answer.

If Bush had done what Chavez did would you find it a proper way to conduct oneself in a fair and free Democratic election?

[Flanker]

78. Because they are not his base, if he did that

The rich would go bonkers and he would lose enen more ground.

Actually he should try it.

[Greyhound]

83. That's pretty much what FDR did, he directly created jobs and changed the

structure of the government, the differences are in intention, I believe.

[EFerrari]

101. You're right. Chavez should have just scared the crap out of

the Venezuelan people with fake terrorist threats and threats of yet another illegal war while he continued to line his cronies pockets and lie through his teeth at every opportunity.

That's how we do it in a REAL democracy.

:rofl:

[paulk]

124. you have completely missed the point.

:rofl: !


What Chavez is doing here can be seen as vote pandering by anyone whose ideological blinkers don't prevent them from doing a little critical thinking. That Bush has engaged in some shady maneuvers regarding our elections doesn't somehow absolve Chavez from the same, I would think.


Or does it?

Apparently a lot of people on this thread think it's ok... as long as it's their guy doing the maneuvers.

[1932]

132. What exactly do you think the maneuver is?

[paulk]

134. did you read the article this thread is predicated on?

The Chavez opposition is accusing him of trying to influence the December election by distributing bonuses beforehand that ordinarily wouldn't go out until after the election - thereby, according to the opposition, creating an artificial bump in the economy just before votes are cast. Also - using public money; ie, free public transportation, pro Chavez posters painted on public transport, free pro Chavez t-shirts given out, a free rock concert - in other words, vote pandering.

[Peace Patriot]

97. Yeah, it's a little over the top--an early Christmas bonus, free bus rides,

a free rock concert. But, hey, it's not benefiting fatcats, it's benefiting THE POOR, who vote for Chavez ANYWAY. And he's way ahead in the polls--he ain't gonna lose--so he didn't need to do this.

And please pay attention to WHO is writing the article (AP, which is typically very anti-Chavez) and WHO the charges are coming from (his "opponents," who typically exaggerate, lie and whine--when they're not plotting coups and raking in OUR taxpayer money--just like Bushites).

Look how AP begins this paragraph:

"A close ally of Cuban leader Fidel Castro, Chavez has vowed to continue governing the world's fifth-largest oil exporter until 2021 or longer. He has asked the National Assembly, packed with his political allies, to consider changing Venezuela's constitution next year to allow indefinite re-election. It now allows two consecutive presidential terms."

Now, was that really necessary--"a close ally of Cuban leader Fidel Castro"? What does it have to do with anything that follows? Cuba is not an oil exporter. Castro was not elected. Cuba does not have a democratic constitution. And Chavez has OTHER allies--among ALL the democratically elected governments in South America.

The operative word in the paragraph, although it is modified to drain it of meaning, is "re-election." They say he wants "indefinite re-election." What this means is "no term limits." A reasonable policy, in a democracy. If the limit on presidential terms is changed--which will require voter approval, I believe--he will have to be RE-ELECTED again--as FDR was, FOUR times.

"...packed with his political allies." Packed? Hm. They, too, were all ELECTED! "Packed" sounds illicit, dirty, phony. Every one of Chavez's allies in the National Assembly was elected by the people. It's not a "packed" National Assembly. It's a duly ELECTED National Assembly, which has every right, under the Constitution, to listen to Chavez's LAWFUL proposals, and agree to them or not agree to them.

That was the by-election that the opposition boycotted--the National Assembly elections. So Chavez supporters took it in a walk. But they would have won big majorities, in any case, from all reports. The opposition saw they were losing, badly, and manufactured an excuse to boycott the elections. It was kind of funny--if it hadn't been so pathetic. The election commission asked them what they wanted--because they're always whining and complaining about the elections (the most heavily monitored elections on earth). They told the election commission that they objected to the "purple finger" voter ID by fingerprint. They said it was being misused. So the commission suspended that requirement. And they boycotted the elections anyway! They lost a few seats because of it--and lost some voices who more than likely would have been raised against ending the presidential term limit.

Like I said above, I actually WISH that Chavez had a decent opposition. But I seen no reason to paint his desire for RE-ELECTION in such dark colors. He is not proposing to be dictator. He is proposing to be RE-ELECTED, if that's what the majority of Venezuelans WANT.

The fascists always used to call FDR a "dictator," too. And it has as much reality as this does. FDR represented, and acted in the interests of, the MAJORITY of the people, and was re-elected by them. That makes for a lot of power, but it DOESN'T create a dictatorship.

But AP, by prefacing the paragraph with the reference to Castro, is implying just that--that Chavez wanting to be re-elected, after this term, makes him a dictator, when it doesn't mean that AT ALL.

I have been reading articles about Chavez in our war profiteering corporate news monopoly press for some time now, and I am truly appalled at articles like this, which are so blatantly deceitful, and keep repeating lies over and over. The jerks who write this crap are going to get the man killed, before they're finished--because the John Bolton's and the John Negroponte's and the Oliver North's of this world are going to feel they have sufficient cover in the corporate press to get away with it--by painting Chavez as "dictator" and as some sort of threat, when he very clearly and very demonstrably is not.

I find it sickening. And I frankly don't believe a word they write any more--and that includes the entire U.S. and a lot of the UK corporate press corps. They are just liars and dirtbags.

The only usefulness of an article like this--and I've yet to read any that aren't like this--is trying to figure the motives and moves of the Bush Junta in Latin America. The Bush Cartel has bought almost 200,000 acres in Paraguay, and I think they intend to launch a private war (using OUR money--and paramilitary forces from Columbia) against Evo Morales, and his indigenous and leftist supporters in Bolivia, thence to Peru and Venezuela. I am horrified at what they might do. And corporations like AP, the NYT, the WSJ and others will be right there, to cheer them, as they bring the death squads and heinous dictators back into power in these poor and often brutalized countries.

[GirlinContempt]

143. Great post!

:)

[TankLV]

115. If bunkerboy did that, then he'd be a DEMOCRAT and wouldn't be bunkerboy!

And if he gave bonuses to the poor and lower classes like Hugo, then you betcha I'd approve!

But that would be like assuming for a moment that bunkerboy and the repukes were decent, honerable, trustworthy human beings! - and pigs could fly!

Ain't gonna happen - ever - and that's WHY we HATE the WAR CRMINAL and his fellow repukes!...

[paulk]

125. why do you assume that the people he gave bonuses to

are the poor and lower classes?

The article says that they are government employees. They work for the government - that usual denotes at least a decent paying job, I would think. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the government of Venezuela doesn't pay very well. However, in most countries I'm aware of, especially poor countries like Venezuela, a government job is something that is highly sought after. I would assume that a government employee is probably at least a member of the middle class.

Chavez already has the vote of the poor and lower classes locked up. Wouldn't it make more sense that he's giving these bonuses early in an attempt to sway voters who might not be his natural supporters to vote for him?

[TankLV]

130. I've answered the question, you've indicated your ignorance of the matter...

repeatedly...

[paulk]

135. that's the best you can do?

point out my ignorance.....

[PeaceProgProsp]

38. Bush would never empower working people.

[citizen snips]

92. Bush giving back to the working class

you have got to be kidding me. :rofl:

[drdtroit]

137. He's already done it! More millions to the millionares, don't you see?

:patriot:

[0rganism]

41. so wait... is this news? when did they stop being angry?

I must have missed that development

[cosmicdot]

42. meanwhile, state-side Republicans halt smart flu shot logistics

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4304540.html

typical Republican mindset ... promote the general welfare: bad; corporate/plutocrat welfare: good, no problem ...

let the seniors make an extra, special trip to get the shot if they want one ... why make it convenient and cost-effective for all concerned? :sarcasm:


Chavez should have given the money to corporations and plutocrats like George Bu$h does, but do it disguised as tax cuts, boondoggle federal contracts, etc.
:sarcasm:

[bobbie]

69. That *fiend*! That monster! Sharing the wealth!????

It's positively unAmerican...unSouthAmerican that is.

The philistine. He's gonna destabilize the world slave-based economy.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO! GOhuGO!

[citizen snips]

89. Good for Chavez

He is giving wealth to the workers and not the corporations.

[leesa]

99. The nerve! To give out Christmas bonuses before Christmas so people

can actually spend them on Christmas. Such an evil, evil man!

[upi402]

102. MUST SEE: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (documentary)

Like sfexpat2000 referred to, a very very good film.. We are far more corrupt in America.

[Nevernose]

133. A transparent attempt at buying votes

Nobody ever called Hugo Chavez "stupid." If you had an extra three billion laying around, and you were gonna give it the poor, then why on God's green earth would you wait until AFTER the election? It would be just plain STUPID to wait until after the election to give that cash away.

And while he's definitely buying votes, what can you really say? "Hey, somebody stop that man! He's giving money to poor people! Police! Police! Stop that man from helping the poor!"

The more I read about Hugo Chavez, the more I like him.

[MasonJar]

139. Opposition leaders deserve no quarter after they tried to over-

throw the elected president.

[IndianaGreen]

140. So Chavez pisses off the Venezuelan elites again, heh?

How I wish we had someone like him in power in this country doing the same thing to the American elites.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

142. how dare he share petro-dollar benefits with the people?

Isn't it supposed to go to oil company execs instead?

[bobbie]

144. I love the fact that there's so much interest in President Chavez here

He's the most interesting, and uplifting, head of state I'm aware of today.