NY Post: "Miracle of Baghdad"

[GRClarkesq]

MIRACLE OF BAGHDAD

By NILES LATHEM

December 29, 2003 -- WASHINGTON - Startling new Army statistics show that strife-torn Baghdad - considered the most dangerous city in the world - now has a lower murder rate than New York.

The newest numbers, released by the Army's 1st Infantry Division, reveal that over the past three months, murders and other crimes in Baghdad are decreasing dramatically and that in the month of October, there were fewer murders per capita there than the Big Apple, Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington, D.C.

http://nypost.com/news/worldnews/14687.htm

[0007]

1. Coming from the Post is like listening to Ann Coulter

[Red_Storm]

19. That is true.......

I read an article recently that mentioned that the Post loses between 40-50 million dollars a year but Murdoch holds on to the paper so there can be a right wing presence in the media in NYC........

[are_we_united_yet]

39. NY POST

Now there's a media outlet you can trust

[Minstrel Boy]

2. "Startling new Army statistics"

Why read any further?

Didn't they announce they were going to stop counting the civilian dead? Perhaps that accounts for the apparent remarkable improvement in quality of life.

[Atman]

4. I started ignoring my bills

And I have seen a tremendous growth in my disposable income.

[Robb]

8. Good one.

:D

[GRClarkesq]

3. I know

Figured everyone needed something to warm them up on Monday morning.

[Dr. Wu]

5. "I guess that is a good thing." - Howard Dean

I thought I would beat him to the punch.

[Cocoa]

16. oh boy have you been fooled

jeez, it's the NY Post, and you're using their info to slam Dean?

Why do you let this happen to yourself? Why make it so easy for the tricksters to trick you?

[Dr. Wu]

27. Are you doubting that Dean

said, "I suppose that is a good thing" in reference to the US victory in Iraq?

Then Kerry, Gephart, and Lieberman have all been fooled too because they all have called him on it.

[NickB79]

30. What victory?

125,000 troops still over there, 2 a day being killed daily, dozens of attempted attacks per day. When did we win?

[Dr. Wu]

35. You call this a draw?

And Hitler tied the Allies in WWII?

[Frodo]

6. The ONLY way they get this statistic...

... is by ignoring US military deaths.

"They aren't 'murders' you see"

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

37. Neither are the people killed by the US military murders, either

They are casualties.

[GRClarkesq]

7. They limited the stats to Baghdad

leacing out Tikrit and the Sunni triangle.

[loudnclear]

9. They don't count military killings as "murder"

The US is the absolute pits!

[loudnclear]

10. What this really means is that crime and murder are increaseing under Bush

at home in America. Our cities and rural areas are under a new crime wave that has erased all the anti-crime gains under the last two Presidents. How's that for a headline?

There are in fact, two sides to every story. Why do you think the murder rates are up across this country? We have more murders, roberies, rapes, muggings, car thefts than in 1998-1999. It's because all our resourses are being spent of tax cuts and wars and military.
So we are no safer afterall. In most municipal areas if law enforecement is honest, they will tell you that the story is much worse than is being reported because they have to fudge the numbers and not report many incidents that were preveiously reported.

[drb]

11. Nice one!

Very, very nice!!!!

;)

[kskiska]

12. Ask Tucker Carlson

He was in Baghdad a week or so ago and reported hearing gunfire everywhere as he walked the streets. According to the Post, he should be more scared walking the streets of Manhattan?

[Robb]

14. Yeah, well,

...they know him in Manhattan. ;)

[0007]

22. ....are we spinning out of control yet?

I mean like in the 30's? I think we're gettin thar!

[Maeve]

13. And at the height of "the Troubles", the murder rate was greater

in Wichita, KS than it was in Belfast--so? War zones are safer? Geez, it isn't even apples and oranges; it's lemons and watermelons!

[gulliver]

15. OK. So the reporter shoud take a stroll through Baghdad.

Maybe invest in a few Baghdad companies...

Safer than New York, right?

Right.

[Cocoa]

17. the numbers are a lie

any data from the military is worthless. I've seen the military lie so many times at their press briefings, total, bald faced lies.

There's no way in hell this study is any good, or that its intent is to inform us. The intent is propaganda.

I've read about studies from international organizations, based on data from hospitals, that show Iraq's crime has at least tripled since the war. A lot of it was attributed to the prisoners that Saddam released, and also to the general collapse of security, with practically nothing replacing it.

There's also a lot of kidnappings for ransom, and rape. Hardly a miracle.

[OilemFirchen]

18. Fun with statistics!

If they're measuring civilian on civilian crimes of opportunity, they might want to consider that the residents of Bagdhad are unarmed.

Let's disarm all of the citizens of NYC and start comparing stats, eh?

[ProfessorGAC]

20. Also, Are They Counting The Bombing Victims?

When another suicide bomb goes off and takes out 3 soldiers and 10 civilians, are they counting that as a crime victim, or as those casualties of war?

If they aren't counting them, my how convenient that must be!

I don't know what the credentials of a military statistician need to be, but this study really smacks of "bought and paid for".

The Professor

[OilemFirchen]

25. Let's not forget

that these same "statisticians" attempted to convince the public that Iraq, following "Mission Accomplished", was safer than California. Their proof: the number of soldiers killed on a daily basis was lower than the number of civilians killed daily in California. And the populations were the same: about 25 million.

'Cept that the population of soldiers was only 130,000. And, of course, the civilian population was not counted in their "comparable" analysis.

Good enough for gummint work, I guess.

[NickB79]

31. Many are armed

The US allows Iraqis to own firearms in their homes for self-defense. They confiscate large caches of guns, rockets, explosives and ammo, though.

[Cooley Hurd]

21. Are they including US soldiers & Iraqi civilians killed...

...by insurgency attacks? Also, what was the murder rate under Saddam? Given his iron-fisted rule, I would bet the rate's been even lower than now...

Also, in regards to the questionable source of this article, this passage says it all...

<snip>
John Lott of the American Enterprise Institute, who recently published an extensive analysis on Iraqi crime figures, says the numbers indicate that Baghdad's murder rate dropped from 19.5 per 100,000 people in July to a rate of five killings per 100,000 people in October.
</snip>

AEI statistics should be viewed VERY skeptically!

[OilemFirchen]

23. Hah!

Shoulda read the article...

Lott's so thoroughly discredited that he's become a reliable contrary indicator:

In the Tank - The intellectual decline of AEI.

Have these people no shame?

[Beetwasher]

24. And Just How Do they Arrive at this Statistic?

Answer: They can't. It's made up. How are they compiling the data? What's the methodology? Do they have a centralized database that receives reports from all the police precincts? Are they counting civilian deaths caused by the US military? Are they counting US military deaths? I don't believe this for a second. They made this statistic up. How are they weighting these data? Does anyone really think for a second that the majority of murders are reported to the US's puppet police force? Do they even have a method to report murders? 911? With the chaos that is Baghdad and roving gangs of armed thugs, this is as believable as a virgin in a whorehouse...

[ProfessorGAC]

29. The Gist Of My Earlier Post, With Superior Detail

Thanks Beetwasher. I didn't read the whole article, because it was making me ill. And, i didn't go into my usual sources for data, because the idea was making me ill.

So, i just asked the question, if all the dead people are being counted are not.

Your more detailed set of questions nicely caps anything i said.
The Professor

[Beetwasher]

33. Heavy on the propoganda, scant on the detail

Typical NYP crap. This says it all:

"But Lott cautions that those numbers may be misleading because not all kidnappings and assaults are reported to police.

The Army's statistics do not take into account "political" attacks on U.S. and coalition personnel by Ba'athist death squads - or the terrorists showing up in Baghdad morgues after having been killed by the U.S. military in those battles.

Experts caution that Iraq's police force is still in the formative stages and it is possible that the Army's statistics might not be as accurate as those reported by police forces in the United States."

Talk about an understatement. Good grief. I can't believe I'm witnessing this sort of propoganda in my country. Shameful.

[izzie]

26. On the death count site this is still one of the highest months.

Yes it is down from last month but then that was way up from the month before. And please deaths in NY to Iran. What is with these people, do they know that in some African countries it is even higher. Does that make Iran and NYC heaven?

[robbedvoter]

28. Most improved city - compared death toll now with March - wow!

causes? freedom, coalition of the willing, good ol USA and...uh...less bombs falling on people!

[daleo]

32. Sounds like the title of a musical

"The Miracle of Baghdad" - brought to you by PNAC productions, in association with BFEE Enterprises. Watch for next year's mega-spectacular, "The Miracle of Damascus" (part 2 of an ongoing saga).

[enki23]

34. when you have a several large, hostile police forces...

and are under *martial law,* perhaps it's a ...tad... dishonest to compare your sketchy, likely biased estimates of your crime statistics to hard, accurate numbers in other cities without *martial law* (and without a comparably large number of hostile police who have the authority to shoot to kill without any legal recourse or promise of due process.)

shit. we should do the same thing here. a wet dream for these kooky fascist fucks.

[stickdog]

36. The Miracle On Indefensible Imperialist War Street!

What a poignant tale of seasonal joy!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. The Miracle of Lying Like The Low-Down Dogs That They Are.