Fired teacher honking for justice

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Orlando Sentinel

Fired teacher honking for justice
Now in Osceola, she is appealing her dismissal in Indiana to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Tamara Lytle | Chief Washington Correspondent
September 13, 2007

Kissimmee Middle School reading teacher Deborah Mayer said her world has been "devastated" by four words she uttered in an Indiana classroom four years ago: "I honk for peace."

Mayer, who now lives in Celebration, was fired from her teaching job in Bloomington, Ind., after that 2003 comment. Now she's appealing to the U.S. Supreme Court, asserting that her dismissal for expressing her political views violated her First Amendment rights.

It's a case with national implications for what teachers can -- and can't -- say in a public-school classroom.

"This has been devastating to me," Mayer, 57, said of her case, which has cost her $70,000 in legal fees. "What's important is that when I decided to stand up for my rights and take this school system to court, the court said teachers have no right of free speech."



Read more: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/osceola/orl-honkerfired1307sep13,0,5116664.story

[deutsey]

1. She has the right of free speech, it's just that the kids don't have the freedom to hear it

:evilfrown:

[Kikosexy2]

12. If she had said ...

something like "Jesus loves you" would she still be fired?...hmmm?

[SayWhatYo]

15. I doubt it... and hope not.

In my opinion, it would be ridiculous either way.

Anyways, I find those who 100% support this war in Iraq are becoming more and more irrational as time goes on. Or perhaps it's just that anyone with any rationality realized long ago that this entire situation isn't right, thus leaving only the true idiots on defense. I actually was debating someone the other day who said that the media should not report any bad news about Iraq. I mean, wtf? I was at a loss, how can people actually want to live in a country like that?

[coalition_unwilling]

26. Last night, a yahoo got out of his late-model convertible to

tell a memmber of our peace vigil that "all Muslims are evil" and we should therefore "nuke them all." These are the types of people who still support the BFEE, in other words, racists and militarists who would make Curtis LeMay blush.

BTW: I am now vigiling thrice weekly, on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays with other protests scattered in for added measure. Because one surge deserves another . . .

[Quantess]

35. I'm so jealous you were graced with the Yahoo's presence!

:rofl:
At least now you have a good story to tell!

[Possumpoint]

2. She Has The Right To Free Speech

She may not be allowed to exercises it in the class room in the presence of children.

[9119495]

4. Actually, in my school

I believe we have the right as long as we solicit an opposing viewpoint. It's all tied in to academic freedom. While I don't teach in Indiana, I am in the Midwest. I believe this came up somewhere else recently and the Supreme Court's Tinker vs. Des Moines case was used to note the teachers, like students, do not check their rights at the school house door.

[michreject]

25. I believe you are correct

and I agree with that.

[baldguy]

3. She said "I honk for peace".

She didn't say "You should honk for peace, too. And so should your friends, and your parents and their friends. And if you don't then you're going to hell."

Liberals express their views to others. Conservatives force their views on others - and punish people if they don't agree.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1796435

[peace13]

5. Yes how different her world would be if she had only said...

"I go to church." Peace, kim

[Quantess]

19. Well if she had said that, even though it may be a lie,

People in her community would be saying "She's a good Christian woman!"

Instead, she's a godless, heathen, anti-Amurcan, hippie, communist(LOL), librul traitor, who wants everyone to convert to Muslim.
Get her outta my kids' school!!1!1

[peace13]

24. You got it!! n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. Mr. Wheeler? Meet Mr. Wheeler:

>>>But Wheeler said the peace comments "had absolutely nothing to do with her termination. What happened was, she was a bad teacher.">>>>>

How does one reconcile the above with this?:


>>>>Wheeler, the School Board attorney, said it's clear public-school teachers have no free-speech rights. "We need to keep control of the classroom that's taught in our name," he said. "If they disagree with the curriculum, they can go somewhere else.">>>>>

One doesn't. According to the article she answered a *direct question* from a student.


Having taught during the pre-war hysteria period of 2002-3, I don't know if I'm more annoyed at Indiana and its Stalinist school system or at the teachers' unions that have failed to back Ms. Mayer.

[9119495]

22. I don't think Indiana has teacher unions everywhere.

I was told it was more like the South in some parts where there is no effective union (or a desire to get the rabble to start one).

[Smarmie Doofus]

27. Even in Bloomington? That would surprise me.

University town; liberal ( by IND standards)politics.

Besides, what about NEA? What about the AFT? They may or may not represent Ms. Mayer but they certainly give lip service, in their publications at least, to free speech and due process.

Are these not issues that effect the whole profession?

[9119495]

28. Absolutely and those are all good points.

I think that lending support might have the benefit of growing membership.

[ProudDad]

30. Ah, liberals

Love Me, I'm a Liberal


By Phil Ochs
(Born 1940, died 1976 -- WAY TOO YOUNG)

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every coloured boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the AFL-CIO board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the Democratic Party.
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

http://users.powernet.co.uk/hack/sleaze/love_me_liberal.html

[RainDog]

36. no, not in Bloomington

people in Indiana call Bloomington "The people's republic of Bloomington" because they think residents are commies b/c they're "so liberal." Greens have been elected in the local govt and democrats have been the majority in the local govt for decades. I would say that Bloomington is liberal by any national standard, as far as a % of a population that is liberal or green or anarchist, libertarian or conservative, though they don't have the population of, say, a northwestern city known as liberal. (In fact, radical groups such as ALF and ELF have been a big presence here and were alleged to have been involved in more than one arson. This is a minority of the pop, of course, and no one I know supports property destruction.

Bloomingtonians call the city "an oasis," and if it weren't for the University with its liberal-minded population, Bloomington would be just another backwater. People at the level of prof. are, as a form of social activism, involved in textbook selection for kids in order to stave off fundie literalists, etc. There are people from at least 39 countries who live in B-town, so it's not like the only residents are wasps.

however, a lot of suburbs have been built in the area over the last decade b/c Bloomington is considered a great place to raise kids, the schools are good, the restaurants are good and from lots of diff. cultures, the dali lama's family lives in Bloomington and the Tibetan centers bring in lots of people when the D.L. is in town, the general population is overeducated for many of the jobs they hold (the two body problem or just wanting to stay in the town rather than live in an area with a big commute.) The IU school of music was endowed by Leonard Bernstein and the IUB library system is the twelfth largest in the U.S. Librarians are sort of stereotyped for their liberal povs...the typical librarian stereotype of the "shusher" is really outdated b/c the real stereotype is a middle-aged guy in a ponytail and up and coming it's a female with a tattoo and glasses.

the new suburbs tend to vote more conservatively. there were allegations of voter suppression in some of them -- the supression created, in part, by college republicans in the 2004 elections.

I'm a transplant to B-town and I've enjoyed it here but I'm also ready to move to an area that's more liberal overall, and not a place that's an "oasis." But then, I've wanted to emigrate for 7 years or so and even if dems win I don't particularly relish the thought of living in the U.S. with its Hobbesian medical problems and overly represented (in govt) religious fundies.

[Javaman]

7. We now have to debate whether or not a person can say, "I honk for peace"?

what the fuck has happened to this nation?

what the fuck indeed.

:banghead:

[Felinity]

8. Just wondering

If "I honk for war" would bring retribution.

[wellst0nev0ter]

10. Or "I Support The Troops" (eom)

[madmom]

9. This reminds me of a situation that happened to me quite a few years ago

I was a Girl Scout leader in a small mid-western town, during the Clinton years, I wrote a letter to the editor of our local rag supporting Clinton, I was called on the carpet because one of the mothers didn't think "someone with my mind set" should be around these impressionable girls.I fought back and said just because I agreed to be their GS leader didn't mean I agreed to give up any of my rights, besides it had nothing to do with GS.I won and she pulled her daughters out.:shrug:

[John Q. Citizen]

29. Good for you!

[Posteritatis]

38. Did she at least have enough nerve to define what "your mind set" was? (nt)

[Maat]

11. Un--fricking-believable!

This law school graduate believes that, just as free speech rights don't end at the schoolhouse door for students (that's what the High Court has said), they don't end at the schoolhouse doors for teachers. She wasn't doing anything that interfered with the curriculum, or that was disruptive (the standard for students).

I go to a weekly peace vigil in my conservative town; it's amazing how many conservatives (of the pro-war variety) believe that being 'for peace' is a political statement. It is NOT inherently a political statement; and, in fact, could mean many things. It could mean, "I'm for peace, but I want a country's government to closely cooperate with the United States." What kind of person is PRO-WAR?

Now, in my particular case, I'm obviously a progressive, and I don't believe that there is any justification for violence other than a person defending herself (or himself) from IMMINENT (about to happen) danger of SERIOUS physical harm; but, that's just me.

In my day, Youngsters, Courts recognized (some would say 'found'). acknowleged and supported fundamental rights. I NEVER thought we'd go back to the Legal Stone Age; but, we've gone there.

[Felinity]

13. Exactly

When supporting peace becomes a political statement, we are truly screwed as a culture.

You know who's a real asshole?

Jesus ben Judah, commonly referred to as Jesus the Christ. And Ghandi. Yeah. Well they both got what they deserved.

The only good "Christian" is the one who knows war is the real path to enlightenment. Yeah, that's the ticket. Go out and kill people who don't have the guts to kill you.

Do I NEED to use the Sarcasm smilie?

[Maat]

14. No, I get your point.

The conservatives across the street (self-identified conservatives) post this "Honk for Victory in Iraq" sign. They always get mad at me when I say, "There's no victory in Iraq, and there's no victory in war."

[Felinity]

16. Try this

There is no victory in war; there is only victory in ending War on this planet.

I bet someone has said this before:

War is a sign certain that governments have already failed in their primary mission.

[Maat]

17. Oh ... those are good (n/t)!

[madmom]

32. How about ..."War is failed diplomacy!"

[gauguin57]

18. Other interesting passages from the story ... teacher's son served in Afghanistan, for example.

"I said four little words, and it destroyed my life," said Mayer, whose grown son subsequently served in Afghanistan.

Hope Ellington, whose daughter was in Mayer's class, said Mayer was a strict disciplinarian, which some pupils and parents didn't like. She called Mayer a "really great" teacher with good rapport with pupils. ... Ellington, who describes her family as conservative Republicans, said her daughter was upset that Mayer was "bashing" President Bush in class. But she said Mayer's teaching ability was more important that her political views. She thinks the combination of those views and her strict discipline cost Mayer her job. ... Freedom of speech is perfectly fine for a teacher," Ellington said. "I don't think she was trying to make card-carrying Democrats out of her fourth-, fifth- and sixth--graders."


Mayer switched this year to Kissimmee, where she teaches sixth-grade reading. She recently won the Defense of Academic Freedom Award from the National Council for the Social Studies, but she's disappointed that other teachers groups haven't spoken up on her behalf.

[Celebration]

20. strict disciplinarian

It can be good or bad, but it certainly can raise the rankles of parents, whether justified or not. When one says unpopular things, it always helps to be popular to begin with.

I had to put up with a fifth grade teacher that asked everyone on Mondays if they had gone to church, and gave awards to sections of the class that attended Sunday School (she reluctantly counted the Jewish kids). She also hated the idea that people were descended from monkeys. She also gave us way too much homework.

Weirdly enough, I survived this intact and actually learned a lot in her class. I am just glad I didn't have to endure her more than one year. People really need to realize that all teachers are different, and a lot of them just can't hide their views. Some will be way too strict, some will say outrageous things, etc. In the end it generally all evens out--as long as the students learn.

[againes654]

21. Last year my daughter's teacher

made a statement something to the effect of "everyone should support Bush because he is the pResident" While it greatly upset me, it is MY responsibility to teach my daughter both sides of the story, and let her make her own mind up. Obviously, I am liberal, so I raise her that way. I didn't (even though personally I would like to) rush up to the school hollering and screaming. I realized that the teacher had a right to free speech and her own opinion. I don't like it, but that isn't the point.

Shame that only conservatives seem to be able to practice their free speech rights, while some anti-war protesters are censured.

The teacher in my story was saying what others SHOULD do, the teacher in the OP stated what she does. Makes me very very sad.

[ProudDad]

31. Of course this teacher only said

"I honk for peace"...

not...

"Everyone should honk for peace"

BIG Difference between this person and that teacher who said "everyone should support Bush because he is the pResident"

It highlights again the difference between the "left" and the "right". The right-wingers demand that everyone do what they say/think/want (but don't necessarily do -- Larry Craig/Jimmy Swaggart/Mark Foley)...

[Raejeanowl]

23. Where Does a Teacher's Responsibility Lie?

Two examples:

A teacher for a small private dance school (in contract with a community non-profit) had a teenage son who was shot and killed by a deranged man in a random incident. The teacher in time became a local activist for gun control. She began lecturing to her (hundreds of) dance students about it and giving them anti-gun ownership fliers to take home. She encouraged them to participate in public rallies on the topic.

A second-grade teacher at a public elementary school told her students that there was no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, and for that matter, no God.

Could the persons in either of these examples have had an absolute First Amendment right, yet have violated some other ethical trust?

[0rganism]

34. IIRC, it's called the "captive audience" exception

The 2nd-grade public school teacher, in particular, would not have 1st amendment protections for stating such a viewpoint directly when in the classroom during normal teaching hours.

The dance instructor or her employers might likewise be liable for refunding class fees to those who object, their circumstances might make a difference though. E.g., if the "community non-profit" was well-known for its gun control advocacy, and the dance school was held on their premises, that might be an out.

I think the criteria was basically twofold:
a) one has to be in attendance, either by law or to receive a legal service, at a place where the content in question is unexpected
b) the questionable content must be delivered unrequested within that venue in a way that the attendee cannot reasonably avoid

more here: https://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/harass/substanc.htm#CAPTIVE

[Xithras]

33. I teach. My wife teaches. Political discourse isn't allowed in the classroom.

Like it or not, classrooms (at least at the elementary level) are not the place to express political viewpoints. I've had to take my daughters school to task several times because some of her 'Thug leaning teachers have expressed conservative political views in the past, including one who flat out told the girls in her class that they would "burn in Hell" if any of them had abortions. They were 11 years old at the time.

When I'm teaching logic, I do sometimes encourage my students to engage in political discussions with EACH OTHER, to teach them to ferret out and correct logical fallacies within their own beliefs, but even in that case I am careful to avoid tainting the discussion with my own political views.

The problem with political discourse in the classroom is that students (the good ones anyway) percieve the teacher as being smarter and as imparter of knowledge. We train our children to listen to teachers and learn from them, and many children simply absorb political viewpoints as a part of the "knowledge" the teacher has to impart. I couldn't find it online (probably too old), but when I was in college back in the early 90's, we were shown a summary of a survey that had been done in the 1980's, which essentially proved this point. Students who were educated in classrooms with conservative teachers who expressed their views openly were almost ALWAYS expressed more conservative political views themselves by the end of the year, irregardless of the political leanings of their home environment. The exact same thing happened with liberal teachers, who generated more liberal students. The study illustrated something that has been understood for a very long time...children absorb the political viewpoints of people they respect and look up to, and for many children that group includes teachers. Sadly, most children don't yet have the ability to parse through political opinions to determine their worthiness. That's why we don't allow them to vote. It's also why teachers should NEVER be imparting political views in the classroom.

[Evergreen Emerald]

37. I think the point is that PEACE is not political discourse

Seriously. Peace is a political statement? I imagine everyone would agree that peace is good--even the wing-nuts.

We are through the looking glass where up is down and believing in peace taboo.