Venezuela's Chavez asks Spanish king if he knew of 2002 coup

[Judi Lynn]

Source: International Herald Tribune/Associated Press

Venezuela's Chavez asks Spanish king if he knew of 2002 coup
The Associated Press
Published: November 11, 2007

SANTIAGO, Chile: Hugo Chavez suggested that Spanish King Juan Carlos knew in advance of a 2002 coup that briefly removed the Venezuelan president from power, stoking a diplomatic spat fueled by the monarch's demand at a summit that Chavez "shut up."

Chavez, who was in Chile for the leaders' summit, claimed Sunday that Spain's ambassador had appeared at Venezuela's presidential palace during the two-day coup to support interim President Pedro Carmona — with the King's blessing. Chavez asked how deeply Juan Carlos had been involved.

"Mr. King, did you know about the coup d'etat against Venezuela, against the democratic, legitimate government of Venezuela in 2002?" Chavez asked reporters. "It's very hard to imagine the Spanish ambassador would have been at the presidential palace supporting the coup-plotters without authorization from his majesty."

The Spanish embassy in Caracas, Venezuela, was closed Sunday and phone calls seeking comment went unanswered. No one was available to comment at the palace in Madrid, Spain.


Read more: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/12/america/LA-GEN-Chile-Chavez-Vs-King.php

[Matt Bud]

1. Way to go, Hugo. Tell it like it is.

Thanks for posting this information. I really like Hugo's style and willingness to confront those he feels need to be confronted.

[LaloBorges]

38. Then I suggest you move to Venezuela

If you don't like Bush, why would you like Chavez? you are either missinformed or a person who is attracted by brabura of speech.

Please tells us what you know about Chavez and why you admire him so much, and its not just that you are attracted by the crap he spews out of his mouth day to day.

Talk to the majority of Venezuelans to get a good feel of the situation there as I hope you are not celebrating Chavez stupidity out of ignorance.

Last thing, Chavez is all about him, he is still sore about the coup but fails to mention the one he was involved in, where innocent people did die. The guy is a murderer.

[BeliQueen]

40. Provide information

Instead of berating and insulting the original poster for "ignorance," why not post information and links that will allow everyone to get a broader view of Chavez?

I think hurling insults is counter-productive, and it seems that some people on this board would rather insult than inform.

[LaloBorges]

52. There is plenty of information out there

I am, originally, from Venezuela, and I have family who still lives there, so I get information from them every week (people who are living Chavez's reforms), I read both news, the chavista web sites and the opocision's web sites. There is plenty of information out there that I don't need to give you links to.

But here, if you can read Spanish:
http://www.globovision.com/
http://www.analitica.com/Default.asp
http://www.auyantepui.com/
and this one which is full of advertisement in favour of Chavez:
http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org.uk/

His latests reforms ask for his taking control of the National Bank Industry, kids are now the property of the government, privacy has been redefined (maybe that is where the Bush administration is getting their ideas from), your house can be reclaimed by the government at any time, and when they do is to give it to one of their simpathizers. They have claimed "Haciendas" (Ranches) and these are now the property of Chavez familiy and friends.

If all that sounds like democracy to you then I stand corrected.

Chavez's only goal is to maintain power until he dies, all the policies that he has been implementing since he took over parallel those that Castro implemented in Cuba and if you think Cuba is better off, or Venezuela is better off now then I sugest you move there and experience it first hand.

When you drive at night you will find that noone stops at a red light because if you do, four cars will cut you off, rob you and maybe even kill you, it depends on what mood the criminals are in and there is noone to do anything for you as the goverment is so corrupt that the muggers are most probably part of the police.

I do face the fact that Chavez is the product of years of corruption, but he is not the solution unless you want your country to become another Cuba. Also, corruption under Chavez has been worst than before as it is the "former poor" who are ruling the country, most of them uneducated full of hate for those that made it and taking revenge.

I met a woman here in the US who lived with her son, on a paycheck to paycheck; at a party she informed us that her two brothers had been elected as mayors of a small town in Venezuela and that she was going back to work with them. A year later she was back buying two housee, each house was about $300,000.00 worth and she bought both cash. Now, ask yourselves how this can happen, in a year, on a government salary? mind you, her brothers were not wealthy either, that is before they teamed up with Chavez and were promoted to the mayor post.

Chavez's dad use to leave in a "Rancho (a shack)", and now he is on of the wealthiest in the state of Apure.

Come on, do some homework before you praise people like Chavez. It is the same in the US, people voted for Bush because they felt they could have a beer with him but never bothered to find out deeper on the man.

And he was the man behind the coup that tried to kill Carlos Andres Perez (another thug) and he did kill people during that coup. To say that I am insulting him when he did kill people? That is not an insult, you kill innocent people you become a criminal.

[Bo]

93. I agree, it is the take from the rich give to the poor and especially cronies .

Another idiot trying to implement land reform that will of course fail. I have seen this happen in Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia.

[Judi Lynn]

109. Interesting you have so much information to share, minus facts, references, and links.

Many of us are aware of reforms which brutalized the poor, starting with the Spanish invasion and conquest of the Western Hemisphere.

Since you've mentioned Bolivia, I feel obligated to share this snippet concerning the very European Bolivian dictator, so popular with the U.S., Hugo Banzer:

COLONEL HUGO BANZER
President of Bolivia
In 1970, in Bolivia, when then-President Juan Jose Torres nationalized Gulf Oil properties and tin mines owned by US interests, and tried to establish friendly relations with Cuba and the Soviet Union, he was playing with fire. The coup to overthrow Torres, led by US-trained officer and Gulf Oil beneficiary Hugo Banzer, had direct support from Washington. When Banzer's forces had a breakdown in radio communications, US Air Force radio was placed at their disposal. Once in power, Banzer began a reign of terror. Schools were shut down as hotbeds of political subversive activity. Within two years, 2,000 people were arrested and tortured without trial. As in Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil, the native Indians were ordered off their land and deprived of tribal identity. Tens-of-thousands of white South Africans were enticed to immigrate with promises of the land stolen from the Indians, with a goal of creating a white Bolivia. When Catholic clergy tried to aid the Indians, the regime, with CIA help, launched terrorist attacks against them, and this "Banzer Plan" became a model for similar anti-Catholic actions throughout Latin America.
(snip)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html

[BornagainDUer]

149. Amazing, this pattern has been here at DU for at least 5 years and

they keep trying the same old tired game. Nothing but hot air.

[Judi Lynn]

161. Apparently their oppinion is worth its weight in gold, and they are too important to be bothered

with reading anything or doing any research.

It's up to us peons to beat the bushes and seek out the articles for them to comment upon! It's really our pleasure. These threads would be so unimportant without them. We would have to rely upon informative conversations among ourselves, without disruptions. How dreary.

[Morereason]

95. I have lived in a second world country. Your misunderstand the corruption there. That is not "eviden

The fact that you know someone who likely was a corrupt government official in Venezuela says little about Chavez personally. Venezuela has had a history of turmoil and high crime due to all of the instability in that part of the world. We are as responsible for that as anyone. It will take many years and a lot of work to change that. It does not happen in a short time.

It may be that he is not working hard enough to rout police corruption, and that might be a legitimate criticism, but what you mention does not prove his culpability. Only that Venezuela is still dealing with social problems that are not easy to solve. Just like American Crime, which is also severe.

[LeahMira]

104. Funny

His latests reforms ask for his taking control of the National Bank Industry, kids are now the property of the government, privacy has been redefined (maybe that is where the Bush administration is getting their ideas from), your house can be reclaimed by the government at any time, and when they do is to give it to one of their simpathizers. They have claimed "Haciendas" (Ranches) and these are now the property of Chavez familiy and friends.

Funny, but that is what we want for the U.S. Perhaps your family owned one of those haciendas and you resent that it's been taken away and given to the poor... the poor who had nothing.


Also, corruption under Chavez has been worst than before as it is the "former poor" who are ruling the country, most of them uneducated full of hate for those that made it and taking revenge.

Yeah, well that's what you get when a government refuses to educate all its people. I think the former poor will manage quite nicely. And you are wrong about that "hate for those that made it" part. No one has time to hate, even if they were so inclined. They are too busy building a future for themselves and their children for generations to come.

Is Chavez full of himself? Sure he is. But he knows he won't live forever and he knows the United States is out to get him, so he has to accomplish as much as possible for the people of his country... you know, the millions of terribly poor people... while he can and so that Venezuela can never return to capitalism.

Viva Hugo!

[acmavm]

41. How did he get elected if the majority of Venezualans are

against him?

And from the tone of your post one has to wonder about you.

[LaloBorges]

54. The tone of my blog?

What is wrong with the tone? That I don't agree with you?

I bet you become irate about that 25% out there that still supports Bush, and yes a majority did vote for him the first time, but not the second time. The second time something happened with the voting machines and although Carter was there to "ligitimize" the elections, he (or his people) was never allowed to review the urns that contained the "paper trail", noone knows where the "paper trail" went.

One example is Maracibo, Zulia. Rosales was the governor at the time, and Zulian's loved him as he did more for Zulia than anyone before him...well, he also lost in Zulia, and if you talk to anyone from Zulia, who even supports Chavez, they can't figure that one out.

Yes, attack my tone, but do it with substance, just because you don't like my tone and "have to wonder about me" doesn't make your remarks any better or informative for that matter.

Come one, provide some substance!

[Name removed]

57. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kskiska]

97. A majority did NOT vote for Bush the first time.

Al Gore won the popular vote.

[calvn2mbahcm]

152. I think that he was saying that a majority voted for Chavez the first time n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

169. Um, a majority did not vote for bu$h the first time

Al Gore got half a million more popular votes than bu$h did.

Of course, you may be referring to the 5-4 Supreme Court majority who gave their decision (unsigned) which said it was OK not to count all the votes in a presidential election, if it would harm the chances of their candidate winning.

[ProudDad]

212. Why should they -- you haven't

Your posts are nothing more than hate filled unsubstantiated anecdotal ravings based on "evidence" from "your family" -- doubtless part of the small minority who made out like bandits under the previous regime and therefore pissed that they aren't top dogs any more...

Worthless blather...

[peacetalksforall]

48. Yes, let's have more detail with links so that we can measure up

the sources.

The division in Venezuela is something like Cuba and Castro. You were either already on the side of Batista or not. The haters were gifted with the U.S. policy that made Cuba a target of Communism. I don't think that is happening in Venezuela.

Whose side were these Chavez protesters on at the beginning? The ruling class peppered with Cuban-American political opportunists?

It's the classic divison of the 'more haves' and the people who 'serf'ed for those who had more.

We don't hear any stories of Chavez directing the wealth of the nation to his friends as is the case in the U.S. - we do hear stories of how he is directing the wealth of the nation towards jobs, literacy, housing - something the friends of former dictators who were bought out by corporations, especially the black gold kind - could not claim.

Dissected down to a level that many can easily see.

There is a huge relationship between Florida and Venezuela. Many of the wealthy and well-to-do friends of former Venezuela Presidents and their corporate friends live in FL and Venezuela. Many Cuban-Americans Castro haters live side by side with the these Venezuelans in FL and Venezuela. And many of them all work together in the corporations that specialize in their form of commerce in Latin America and for oil corporations and sub-supporting corporations, to narrow it further (and they own some associated companies as well).

If yes, did they not have a good thing going before Chavez?

So, give us your definition of those who protest Chavez.

P.S. not all pro-Batista Cubans stayed in Miami - many went to Spain.

[LaloBorges]

59. Do a search on Boca Raton, FL

and you will find a lot of Chavez's current politicos as owners of real estate. They bash the US all the time, but when it comes to investing they also come to Florida.

A lot of their investment is also being channeled to France.

I will try to find the list of the people who are currently in Chavez cabinet and their estimated wealth at the time I recieved the email.

I was in Venezuela in 1998, and if I could have voted I would have for Chavez as he campaigned with good rhetoric, of course that many of us did not know it was just that, rhetoric. Venezuela had been leaving in a very corrupt political environment and that is why Chavez ideas, at the tme, were so good. And to tell you the truth, I do find some of his ideas very good and sound, but he does not have the people to back some of these good ideas, nor is he persuing them; he is more worried to staying in power until 2021, or more.

He bashes Bush any time he has a chance, but continues to provide the Oil as he knows that the moment he stops is when he will be taken out of power. To him, that is just a game.

The people who are protesting Chavez are in all social levels today; for one, he is destroying the middle class, he has not lived up to his promises to bring the lower classes up, and they are worst off today than in the past. What he does is he brings them food and alcohol once in a while, he keeps them like a yo-yo, when he brings food and alcohol they are up, when he sees they are almost all the way down (hungry and poorer) then he brings more food and alcohol so, up and down they go.

He has introduced legistlations to indoctrinate kids in school to the communist philosophies, they even teach Cuban history in schools today. Kids are now the "property" of the state, and no matter how poor you are and if I supported you, you mess up with my kids and we have a problem.

Those are the kind of people who are against Chavez today, not only the rich, the poor as well.

Industries are fleeing the country, very little produced there today, very few jobs. Caracas is a disaster, dirty, people steal the aluminum rails so that they can sell them. They steal the steel signs, the copper form the cables. Security is at its lowest.

And by the way, I did provide links, one is a chavista link.

Have fun doing research.

[Flanker]

61. Your links are deficient and it is sad that you think that is enough

I don't go claiming the pope is a pedophile and point to www.google.com and tell people to do their own research...

Most of what you said is bullshit.

State owning children-bullshit
Students being of all social levels-bullshit
Lower classes being worse off-bullshit.
Industry producing less-bullshit.

So cough up your chain emails that you get from gusanos but are too afraid to cite. really I am curious.

[LaloBorges]

65. Stop the insults - People can disagree without insults.

Did you check the links? One of them is pro-Chavez.

Here, this is about the reforms:

http://www.zenit.org/rssspanish-25315

It is very dissapointing to find that people only respond by insults here, its ok if you don't agree with what I am saying, but cut the insults.

As I don't know if you can read Spansih, here is another link:

http://balafria.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/the-reform-moves-ahead/

[EFerrari]

71. You sound exactly like those poor oligarchs who tried to

subvert the duly elected government of Venezuela while they shook their fists and chanted "democracy" in the RCTV studio. Laughable, really.

[LaloBorges]

105. Oligarcs????? Oh, please

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0642296020071112

Read, and inform yourselves...

[EFerrari]

106. Sorry, I don't have a minute to spare for people who spread cr@p. n/t

[ronnie624]

190. Here is another view of the food shortages in Venezuela:

VHeadline commentarist Oscar Heck writes: Just so people know what is really going on in Venezuela when it comes to scarcity of basic food products on market shelves. I am familiar with how this works because I started a small grocery store in Venezuela, one which still operates and one in which I am still involved when problems or difficulties occur. I set up its operations, its profit margins and the purchasing structure as well.

Typically, in Venezuela, and this dates from years before Chavez came into power, hoarding of basic foodstuff is a tactic used by the food mafias and monopolies to dramatically increase profits, especially in the weeks prior to Christmas.

This also applies to some non-food items, such as hardware. What typically happens is that food starts to become of short supply at the consumer end ... things begin to slowly trickle off the shelves until there is "no more" (which is usually not true). The effect is that people begin to be forced into paying much higher prices for the items (usually items of basic necessity such as chicken, meat, baby formula, flour, milk and sugar) on the "black market."

*******

With little doubt, there is also another reason why these crooks hoard basic foodstuff.... like they did in 2002 and 2003 and as they are perhaps doing now. They do it in order to cause problems so that the Chavez government can then be blamed. Almost all major producers, distributors and bigger retailers of basic foodstuff are vilely anti-Chavez ... and highly corrupt, as is intimated by the practice of hoarding.

Although it is "normal" for hoarding of food to start happening near the end of October and beginning of November ... and sometimes into late January ... it appears that the issue of the proposed Constitutional Reform, which almost all anti-Chavez people are "on principle" against, is having a strong influence on the hoarding of basic foodstuff this year ... making it perhaps worse than in other years (excluding perhaps December 2002-February 2003).

But wait ... why would these crooks be upset with Chavez, trying to cause him problems? Maybe it is because they don't want the proposed changes to Article 113 to become law? Article 113 will make monopolies illegal, thus making hoarding more difficult.
<http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=76795>

[Judi Lynn]

192. Interesting article. I read several months ago they also are attempting to find a way to break

his determination to ennact price controls on food, for the benefit of the poor.

Thanks.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LaloBorges]

112. Have you lived in Venezuela?

Do you actually have family who lives there?

If you don't, how dare you call my opinion bullshit if you do not know what you are talking about?

Read this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0642296020071112

Of course, the article on the link is nothing but anti-Chavez propaganda, but you would not know one way or another if you don't actually go there and see it for your self.

If you like living in a socialist country then you do need to move there, you have two choices, Cuba or Venezuela.

You and the other insulting comrade of yours don't really know what you are talking about, socialism and comunism sound very good on books but there has not been one good implementation of those regimes anywhere in the World, and Venezuela will be another casualty, unfortunately they all end up in corruption and grab for power, just like Venezuela is heading to.

Can you tell the bloggers here what it is that you like about the new reforms in Venezuela? And don't answer by insulting as you have not been able to provide any comments that have any substance. Is it the appropriation of the Banks? or is it the appropriation of land and personal property? or any of the other reforms, including the change to the constitution that allows Chavez to be "re-elected" for ever? Would you like to see those types of reforms here in the US? Would you like to have Bush as "president" for ever? or for the state to decide to take your house because a comrade needs it? Those things ARE happening in Venezuela.

Please call me on my "bullshit" and explain why is it that what I say is and what you don't say is not? You have not said anything yet to justify your support of Chavez, at least nothing intelligent.

[EFerrari]

144. Because we all have experience with right wing bullshit?

Give it up, Lalo. No sale here. We keep up with current events and you've been busted several times for spreading lies.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subsuelo]

203. I just love the "I lived in Venezuela" angle

as if that trumps everyone else's argument

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

206. And it's so easy to type. Only 20 keypresses. See, I can do it too:

I lived in Venezuela.

And I don't even have to have ever stepped on Venezuelan soil to be able to type that! Amazing, innit?

[Judi Lynn]

207. The right-wing expatriot scum from Venezuela who embedded themselves in South Florida

and started their own virulent anti-Chavez groups once lived in Venezuela, too. They have so much in common with the racist, greedy, murderous hogs of the first wave "exiles" who really DID flee Cuba, fearing retribution by the population after the revolution, when the shoe went on the other foot.

[DLnyc]

191. Very interesting reading, thank you

My Spanish is not good enough to read much of the first one, although it's good enough to get the idea that it seems to be backed by the Episcopalian and Catholic churches, who would have obvious reasons to oppose any socialist movement.

The second one seems to be a wonderful history and analysis of the current Chavismo movement and its place in Venezuelan history. and I thank you for posting the link. I can see how some things might temper your enthusiasm for Chavez at this point, but I really can't see how you imagine the alternative, a severe right-wing backlash, to be preferable, or even thinkable.

In the US, it is certainly smarter to elect Democrats, even if they are largely corporatist, and then work within a 'liberal' environment to get real change, than to risk a swing to outright fascism with the Repugnicans. I would guess it's smarter in Venezuela to stick with Chavez and work to improve things from within, than to risk another rightwing reign of terror, like so many seen in the last decades in South and Central America. But that's just my perspective.

[peacetalksforall]

73. No, I can't buy into some of the stuff you're saying.

Caracas being a disaster, dirty, people stealing - since Chavez? I don't think so. That existed way before Chavez. And if they are establishing schools, things will get straightened up a little by the efforts of the people whose hopes have been raised.

If the poor are getting jobs and an education, then it usually means that the middle class is not going down. See-sawing the middle class people with liquor and food? Doesn't sound right to me.

I believe in honest schoolbooks - any truth about Castro and Cuba is a good idea, if it's the truth - you haven't said. Our country has been a disaster for all its distorted history and spin - always implying that the white people were the honorable ones and things got done by the white people. The North American natives - dismissed except for the wars (maybe it's getting better, now, I haven't kept up).

And aren't you overlooking at the dynamics of business and aid going on within South America - I personally think it's great that those countries are joining together to help each other out and make them less dependent on the system of bossing from Europe and the U.S. and their Banks that have kept the poor very poor. That was a great signal and act that C initiated to help (was in Bolivia) to pay off its debt to the big world banks.

I personally hope that their alliances keep spreading. And as much as it hurts our ego over the things we wanted to believe that were once great about our country, I hope that the South American alliances continue to show movement to recognize and do something (finally) about their poor on their own and in the face of those predatory and life eating policies of the world banks.

Regretably, the South American are not doing all that well yet about the environmnet which is about the poor, eventually. i'm open to learning more about what Chavez is doing or not doing on that front.

Sorry, I guess I have to say you didn't convince me.

[EFerrari]

75. There is corruption in Venezuela and Chavez is not personally

responsible for it. He could be doing more about corruption and about crime but I seriously doubt he would steal my children, lol.

[LaloBorges]

118. You are correct in some points

Yes, the division was social, the haves and have-nots, but when Chavez came on the scene, a lot of "haves" were with Chavez. Chavez had a lot of support from the wealthy families during his campaign,not only the poor were supporting him, he could have never campaigned otherwise, but he has since betrayed that support. As I said before, I was in Venezuela in 1998 and if I could have, I would have voted for him as his message was one of hope for all Venezuela.

Chavez jimself does not direct the wealth to his friends, but does turn his head the other way when they rob the country. I know a lot of people in Venezuela as I lived there more many years, I know the suburbs of Caracas and although it is a big city, people know each other. I also know the people that are moving into the expensive suburbs like "La Lagunita", "Prados del Este", etc. These a neuvo-rich people that have benefited from their links with the Government.

Just look at Chavez's dad who lived in a shack before Chavez was president, he made him Governor of Apure and now owns several Haciendas.

People with money, and I am talking about cattle ranchers, and in the agricultural business are selling everything the have and moving out as they are being persecuted and many of them have been kidnapped for big ransom.

The creation of jobs is a myth as industries are moving away from Venezuela and Chavez has not created new jobs or industries. If you try to buy "Harina Pan" today, you can but it says "Made in Colombia". This is an indistry that has been in Venezuela since for over 80 years, the "Arepa" is something venezuelans eat (or used to) every day. you cannot find that anymore, you cannot find milk.

The infrastructure is crambling, monuments have been left without maintenance and some of them are in such ruins that cannot be recognized, bridges are falling, etc.. Not sure if you heard of the "Che Guevara" monument he had built in Caracas? Lots of money for a guy that was not born there, or contributed with anything in Venezuela. It was made of crystal and someone shot it down to pieces; that is where some of the money is going to, stupid projects that do not benefit anyone.

You don't have to believe anything I am saying, but you do need to read both sides and then make your mind of what the reality is. I get my news from the web and from friends on both sides, and the ones on Chavez's side seem to be getting smaller by the months. It comes a time when reality hits, rhetoric and promises become old as these are not followed by actions.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0642296020071112

Read that article, and it is true, you cannot find milk and many basic necesities.

[zeemike]

175. I know little of Venezuela Lalo

But you said something that made my ears perk up
You said kids were being taught Cuban history in school.
And that is amazing to me because no where that I know of is the history of Cuba taught.
So a few years ago I took it upon myself to find ut about Cuba and teach myself. And what I found was an amazing corruption fostered by mostly American sugar companies and the Mafia that actually owned the country and practically destroyed it for there own profit
By 1948 90% of the standing forest were cut down and Cubans owned less than 10% of the land. The city of Havana was owned by the American Mafia and was one big whore house.
Castro was an agrarian reformer and came to the US for help and was rejected by the state department so he had no where else to turn except to Russia.
The followers of Batista took the money and ran to south Florida to await the invasion that they were sure would be launched by the US to put them back in power.
Now why is the history of Cuba so disturbing to you?
Are the same dynamics happening now in your country?

[Flanker]

195. Most of what you say is circumstantial bolony.

Chavez father is the Gov of BARINAS, seriously don't you know that it is a high paying job? he could easily afford an hacienda or two, not to mention one of his son is president and the other a mayor, their salaries alone make them a top percentile. Socialist? maybe not, but not corrupt unless you consider wages as corruption.

"The creation of jobs is a myth as industries are moving away from Venezuela and Chavez has not created new jobs or industries. "

Wrong, unemployment has fallen, manufacturing is growing as well.

"monuments have been left without maintenance and some of them are in such ruins that cannot be recognized,"

Wrong, if anything monuments have gotten their first facelift in years.

http://www.fundapatrimonio.gob.ve/portal/modules/news/
Look at the videos.

"bridges are falling,"

So? they fall in the US as well, at least govt had the foresight to heed advice and close the bridge before people died unlike the midwest. A new bridge replaced it under a sturdy base and things went to normal.

[Judi Lynn]

202. Oh, Jeez! I just looked at the first one. Beautiful. It's a real boost for those of us who've not

had a chance to see for ourselves, yet.

Thanks, a lot. Gonna save this link.

[EFerrari]

70. What a tall steaming pile of propaganda.

You're bringing it to the wrong people, Lalo.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[itcfish]

214. If Chavez Had an Ounce

of knowledge, he would know that Juan Carlos King of Spain is a figure head and does not partake in the govermenta at all. Chavez insulted the King and Zapatero. Aznar could have been guilty of what Chavez accused the king of doing, but that should be addressed diplomatically and he would have received help from Zapatero against the opposition. Chavez is just another would be ignorant dictator.

[leftist_not_liberal]

2. Judy Lynn, I am a newby

but a long-time lurker. I just want to give you a Big Thank You for your persistent delivery of the very important facts which, even here, seem to meet with much unwarranted controversy. You're a champ, and I appreciate you tremendously for helping keep me informed through the fog that passes for news these days.

[Judi Lynn]

5. leftist_not_liberal, you are very kind. Delighted to know you are among us.

Hope we all will live to see the days we aren't living with "perception management" to the degree we've got working now.
Great you've joined us. Welcome to D.U. :hi: :hi: :hi:

[DLnyc]

16. Another article (Naomi Klein) that gives a good perspective on SA history

Latin America's Shock Resistance
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071126/klein

Also see this post, linking same article:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=319797

(snip)
Nowhere, however, was the economic project in deeper crisis than where it had started: Latin America. Washington has always regarded democratic socialism as a greater challenge than totalitarian Communism, which was easy to vilify and made for a handy enemy. In the 1960s and '70s, the favored tactic for dealing with the inconvenient popularity of economic nationalism and democratic socialism was to try to equate them with Stalinism, deliberately blurring the clear differences between the worldviews. A stark example of this strategy comes from the early days of the Chicago crusade, deep inside the declassified Chile documents. Despite the CIA-funded propaganda campaign painting Allende as a Soviet-style dictator, Washington's real concerns about the Allende victory were relayed by Henry Kissinger in a 1970 memo to Nixon: "The example of a successful elected Marxist government in Chile would surely have an impact on--and even precedent value for--other parts of the world, especially in Italy; the imitative spread of similar phenomena elsewhere would in turn significantly affect the world balance and our own position in it." In other words, Allende needed to be taken out before his democratic third way spread.

[Judi Lynn]

19. Thanks for the linked article. The author is tremendous. Here's another article regarding the same

subject, same people:

Our ambassador to Chile brought up the question of torture to Kissinger. Kissinger rebuked him sharply -- saying something like, Don't give me any of those political science lectures. We don't care about torture -- we care about important things. Then he explained what the important things were.
Kissinger said he was concerned that the success of social democracy in Chile would be contagious. It would infect southern Europe -- southern Italy, for example -- and would lead to the possible success of what was then called Eurocommunism (meaning that Communist parties would hook up with social democratic parties in a united front).
Actually, the Kremlin was just as much opposed to Eurocommunism as Kissinger was, but this gives you a very clear picture of what the domino theory is all about. Even Kissinger, mad as he is, didn't believe that Chilean armies were going to descend on Rome. It wasn't going to be that kind of an influence. He was worried that successful economic development, where the economy produces benefits for the general population --not just profits for private corporations -- would have a contagious effect.
In those comments, Kissinger revealed the basic story of US foreign policy for decades.
***
You see that pattern repeating itself in Nicaragua in the 1980s.
Everywhere. The same was true in Vietnam, in Cuba, in Guatemala, in Greece. That's always the worry -- the threat of a good example.
Kissinger also said, again speaking about Chile, "I don't see why we should have to stand by and let a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people."
As the Economist put it, we should make sure that policy is insulated from politics. If people are irresponsible, they should just be cut out of thesystem.
(snip/)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/SecretsLies_Chile_Chom.html

[DLnyc]

29. Thanks. Good reading.

Chomsky, John Perkins (Confessions of an Economic Hitman), Naomi Klein, the picture begins to become clear, of a history of blatant interference and manipulation (to the point of assasinations, coups and wars when simple economic muscle wasn't enough) by a shadowy sector of elites in American business and government.

However, I'm starting to believe that the tide has finally turned. Again from the Naomi Klein article:
(snip)
Chávez has made the cooperatives in Venezuela a top political priority, giving them first refusal on government contracts and offering them economic incentives to trade with one another. By 2006 there were roughly 100,000 cooperatives in the country, employing more than 700,000 workers. Many are pieces of state infrastructure--toll booths, highway maintenance, health clinics--handed over to the communities to run. It's a reverse of the logic of government outsourcing: rather than auctioning off pieces of the state to large corporations and losing democratic control, the people who use the resources are given the power to manage them, creating, at least in theory, both jobs and more responsive public services. Chávez's many critics have derided these initiatives as handouts and unfair subsidies, of course. Yet in an era when Halliburton treats the US government as its personal ATM for six years, withdraws upward of $20 billion in Iraq contracts alone, refuses to hire local workers either on the Gulf Coast or in Iraq, then expresses its gratitude to US taxpayers by moving its corporate headquarters to Dubai (with all the attendant tax and legal benefits), Chávez's direct subsidies to regular people look significantly less radical.
(snip)

Thanks for bringing more attention to these very important issues!

[peacetalksforall]

60. Until the pnacers, it was all a blur and we were riding the momentum of

heresy about democracy.

We, as the workers of America-US, didn't really know what the U.S. was doing in Chile - we operated under the belief that we were well intentioned and made pure by our love of democracy.

Now, someone has blown it and these smart people with all their think tankers probably didn't foresee the internet.

While they accelerated their agenda at a rate exceeding the impatience of Cheney - I don't think they counted on the accelerated pace of learning that we were afforded. We can communicate, in some instances, with the operatives or experts on the subject.

What accelerated the agenda - could it be knowledge of global warming and the accelerated need for world order under them? While keeping up the dependence on the commodity they own and stole in the meantime?

Yep, we're heading for something quite serious if we don't regain the earth for all the people who depend on it, not just a few.

[ronnie624]

30. Excellent. Thanks.

Now that they can turn elsewhere for help, governments throughout the region are shunning the IMF, with dramatic consequences. Brazil, so long shackled to Washington by its enormous debt, is refusing to enter into a new agreement with the fund. Venezuela is considering withdrawing from the IMF and the World Bank, and even Argentina, Washington's former "model pupil," has been part of the trend. In his 2007 State of the Union address, President Néstor Kirchner (since succeeded by his wife, Christina) said that the country's foreign creditors had told him, "'You must have an agreement with the International Fund to be able to pay the debt.' We say to them, 'Sirs, we are sovereign. We want to pay the debt, but no way in hell are we going to make an agreement again with the IMF.'" As a result, the IMF, supremely powerful in the 1980s and '90s, is no longer a force on the continent. In 2005 Latin America made up 80 percent of the IMF's total lending portfolio; the continent now represents just 1 percent--a sea change in only two years.

The transformation reaches beyond Latin America. In just three years, the IMF's worldwide lending portfolio had shrunk from $81 billion to $11.8 billion, with almost all of that going to Turkey. The IMF, a pariah in countries where it has treated crises as profit-making opportunities, is withering away.

Here's to hoping we are witnessing the beginning of the collapse of the corporatist economic paradigm.
:toast:

But something tells me that a long, tortuous and violent struggle lies ahead for the working classes of the world, before political and economic power is wrested from those who currently and illegitimately hold it.

[DLnyc]

32. A long time before evil is gone from the world, a short time for USA to fade

from its facade of power, I would say. Really, reading this article confirms my impression that the US/CIA/IBM/Bechtel/IMF/WTO/Carlisle axis no longer has anywhere near the sway they once had over South American political and economic life in particular, and world affairs in general. In particular because the world now laughs at them:

'In less than two years, the lease on the largest and most important US military base in Latin America will run out. The base is in Manta, Ecuador, and Rafael Correa, the country's leftist president, has pronounced that he will renew the lease "on one condition: that they let us put a base in Miami--an Ecuadorean base. If there is no problem having foreign soldiers on a country's soil, surely they'll let us have an Ecuadorean base in the United States." '
. . .
'In the midst of the Wolfowitz affair, the Financial Times reported that when World Bank managers dispensed advice in the developing world, "they were now laughed at." '


There are still many evil and greedy actors in the world, but they may be less insane the the crowd that currently is occupying our government. Also, by being spread across many countries and cultures, their power is somewhat diluted compared to the concentrated evil of post-WWII US military/industrial/oil shadow actors. IMHO.

[Demeter]

33. The US Can't Invade EVERYONE! W Saw To That!

No army, no invasion. No invasion, South America gets a chance.

[Ignis]

84. I hate to chime in with a "me too!" but you're awesome, Judi.

I've always enjoyed your posts on Venezuela, and your efforts to spread the truth are appreciated. It's hard to find anything but anti-Chavez stories in the US media.

[Judi Lynn]

101. It IS hard to find information, isn't it? No doubt that has to do with the private,oligarchy-owned

media in Venezuela. The largest media owner is Gustavo Cisneros, a personal friend of _{George H. W. Bush.} Here's more on Cisneros, and his actual connection to the coup in April, 2002:

The Bush Family's Murky Dealings in Venezuela

~snip~
But, other members of the Bush family also have important ties to Venezuela. After the failed coup d'etat against Chavez, television magnate and Bush Sr. friend Gustavo Cisneros was implicated as one of the principal proponents of the coup.

Cisneros publicly denied his role in the coup, but the magazine Newsweek noted that Pedro Carmona "was seen leaving Cisneros' office" before going to the Government Palace to swear in as provisional president.

According to Newsweek, Venezuelan legislator Pedro Pablo Alcantara said that the brief Carmona dictatorship was organized in Cisneros' offices, and that Cisneros was the "supreme commander" of the operation.

* Newsweek also said that Otto Reich had spoken with Cisneros "two or three times" during the events of the coup.

One of the calls was made by Cisneros to warn Reich on April 13 that a crowd of angry Chavez supporters had surrounded the building housing his TV station, Venevision.

According to Venezuelan sources, on April 11, 2002, when a confrontation took place between Chavez supporters and opponents resulting in 25 deaths, most of them Chavez supporters, Pedro Carmona wasn't in the streets. Rather, he was comfortably installed in Venevision's bunker, together with Episcopal Conference President Baltazar Porras, journalistic businessman Rafael Poleo, and other figures.

Billionaire Gustavo CisnerosTherefore, it's not strange that Cisneros has been identified as Bush Jr.'s prospect to confront Hugo Chavez in future presidential elections, which could take place earlier than scheduled if the opposition wins the US-supported presidential recall referendum.

57-year-old Gustavo Cisneros Rendiles has a fortune of around US$5 billion, one of the largest in Latin America, after Mexican Carlos Slim. Cisneros occupies the 94th position on the list of the 500 richest men in the world, according to Forbes magazine.

Of Cuban origin, Cisneros is the majority shareholder in Univision, the largest Spanish language TV chain in the United States, and he possesses channels with vast audiences in other countries, such as Venevision in Venezuela, ChileVision, Caracol Television of Colombia, and Caribbean Communications Network. He also owns the bottler Panamco, and is a major shareholder in Coca Cola.

Cisneros, together with his wife Patricia Phelps, were often on the White House guest list of Ronald and Nancy Reagan. The friendly relationship between Cisneros and Bush Sr. also seems to encompass privatizing the state-owned PDVSA, putting it on Bush Sr.'s list of Texas businesses.

Gustavo Cisneros goes on fishing excursions in Venezuela as well as Florida with his friend George Bush, demonstrating that capital has neither scruples nor ideology. Cisneros also cultivated relationships in the Clinton administration through former Carter administration Secretary of State Cyrus Vance.

Cisneros belongs to the Americas Society, a non-profit organization chaired by David Rockefeller, whose mission is to "provide members strategic advantages for doing business in a region that offers enormous opportunities, but also considerable risks."
(snip/...)

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/2181.html



Gustavo Cisneros and his American friend.

[ronnie624]

198. The facts, outlined in your article,

are what make it so difficult to be civil to the nit-wits who claim that Chavez has eliminated freedom of speech or that he has "taken over the media" in Venezuela.

I noticed earlier, someone had cited Reporters Without Borders as a credible source. Here is an interesting item on RSF's coverage of the media in Venezuela. Doubtless you have already seen it.

<http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13229>

[Judi Lynn]

205. Your article is teeming with important points about RSF and RCTV, etc.

~snip~
The second fallacy is found in the expression “media hegemony.” With this title, RSF expects the reader to believe that the Venezuelan authorities control the media and hold a virtual monopoly over this sector. In order to win over public opinion, Robert Ménard, general secretary of the organization, incessantly repeats the same maxim to the press: “Chávez has hegemonic control over the media.”(3) However, the truth is quite different. In Venezuela, 80% of current TV channels and radio stations are privately owned. In terms of cable and satellite TV, private companies control nearly all channels. Moreover, the 118 national and regional periodicals distributed in the country are controlled by the private sector. “Media hegemony” exists, all right. But private financial groups and corporations are the ones in control. (4)
(snip)

RSF would do well to consider what would happen right in their own yard if the same thing happened there:

The conservative Los Angeles Times also published RCTV’s intention to “oust(ing) a democratically elected leader from office” ever since Hugo Chávez was elected president in 1998. According to the daily, after the coup RCTV “edged fully into sedition (and) ran manipulated video blaming Chavez supporters for scores of deaths and injuries.” It article recalled that Granier went to the Presidential Palace to swear his loyalty to “dictator Pedro Carmona who had eliminated the Supreme Court, the National Assembly and the Constitution.” The LA Times concluded: “Granier and others should not be seen as free-speech martyrs,” but instead as coup plotters. (9) In another instance, Granier made an eloquent declaration to RSF regarding the coup “I confess that I was not unhappy to see Hugo Chávez go.” (10) How could he be “unhappy” if he actively participated in his overthrow?

It is evident, by RCTV’s open support and participation in the rupture of constitutional order in April 2002 that it is not concerned with public interest. Moreover it goes without saying that if a French TV channel, or that of any other country in the world, dared to behave similarly it would not even last 24 hours and its directors would immediately be thrown in prison. The Houston Chronicle doubted that RCTV’s “actions would last more than a few minutes” in the United States.
(snip)

On edit: Really appreciate seeing this material posted. Isn't it a damnable shame the lies ALWAYS get out, get aired, get accepted as truth among the ones who are likely to NEVER READ, NEVER RESEARCH, NEVER LOOK BEYOND THE SURFACE. They make propagandists' jobs so easy for them.

Fortunately, with any luck, the future of the world won't depend upon the whims of emotionally driven, intellectually nearly dead, anal leaning-hard-right-because-that's-the-way-I-was-raised'ers. In the VERY long run, they are the lightweights.

[Vidar]

47. Welcome to DU. You're right about Judi; she's a gem.

[Judi Lynn]

3. So it would appear this story started back in April, 2002, during the coup!

The last paragraph from the article's well worth pondering:

Chavez regularly accuses Washington of helping orchestrate the 2002 coup against him — a charge U.S. officials deny. U.S. and Spanish ambassadors did meet with Carmona and his newly appointed foreign minister on April 13, 2002, hours before Chavez was restored to power following massive demonstrations.

Those who knew about this have been thinking about it for over 5 years. Don't blame them for wanting to bring it up.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. It seems that there was much more going on than we were told.

As usual the background to this quarrel was left out of the media reporting.

[Hulk]

78. There is almost ALWAYS more going on than what we are told.

[On the Road]

6. Hmmm, Very Interesting...

The plot thickens.

[AlphaCentauri]

7. A King?.... I thought spain was a democracy

How come they still have a king in the 21st Century? I can't believe it

[mitchtv]

11. Franco's wish

[AlphaCentauri]

187. I see what you mean

[itcfish]

215. Spain is a Democracy

a Constitutional Monarchy where the King is just a figurehead. Franco re-instated Juan Carlos as King fo make the transition from dictatorship to democracy an easy one. Juan Carlos has been a great King.

[AlphaCentauri]

217. So we should have a King?

After all no body knows who is running our democracy...

[Mosaic]

22. Spain is...

Ah but we all know the UK is still a monarchy, a democratic monarchy much like Spain. Spain also has a socialist government at present, as united kingdom had a labor/ leftist prime minister. Interesting contrasts keeping opposite sides happy.

[AlphaCentauri]

23. interesting....

how a dual goverment works in a democracy-monarchy system when they normaly oposed each other.

[ellisonz]

31. And that damn Queen of England...how anti-democratic!

:sarcasm:

[bigmonkey]

8. "Mr. King"!

Reminds me of that probably apocryphal story of a monarch visiting a major U.S. city in the 19th century. The mayor is showing the King around, and introduces him to some of his men:

"Boys, da King. King, da boys."

Having grown up in New England, I have found it hard to relate to the awe that some people have for "royals". Chavez was being deeply rude about the royal status, and I can't say I entirely disapprove.

[Judi Lynn]

9. Deeply rude is sending your ambassador over to the seized Presidential Palace

where the oligarchy's coup plotters were setting up shop after they planned and executed a coup, taking the President of Venezuela away, by force, tossing out the Constitution, dismissing the National Assembly, the Supreme Court, and sending police around to arrest and imprison his cabinet members and staff.

That's "deeply rude" for you, and the people of Venezuela, after they finally got a chance to see through the heavy curtain of silence the oligarchy's newspapers, tv and radio stations had imposed, after weeks of constant anti-Chavez diatribe, finally learned through their own meager sources that their President had been kidnapped, ran through the streets in large numbers to surround Miraflores, demanded his release. They saw his kidnapping as "deeply rude."

[bigmonkey]

90. Wasn't trying to stick up for politeness over humanity.

You're correct.

[heliarc]

103. Thank you again for standing up for a real interpretation of events.

Thankfully some of the most egregious violations of the oligarchy in Venezuela are documented in a film produced by the Irish Film board... They were present for the coup which was overturned by sheer will of the people and the righteousness of elements of the Venezuelan Military. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04MgNXit-s4

Judi Lynn of course is the first to set the record straight.

[Judi Lynn]

119. That film is so important people owe it to themselves to see it. The opposition threatened Amnesty

so much they dropped it from the list of films they had chosen to feature at a screening in Vancouver. Here's a reference to that hijacking:

IS THE AMNESTY FILM FESTIVAL AFRAID OF CONTROVERSY?: Human rights film fest removes film from schedule after protest
The critically acclaimed award-winning documentary, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, has been taken out of the Vancouver-based Amnesty Film festival following an organized email protest from Venezuelan opposition groups that the film labels as coup-plotters. In the documentary, well-financed, American-backed opponents of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez are clearly seen plotting to remove the leader, despite a national wave of support from the citizens of the country. The documentarians themselves had the cameras rolling alongside Chavez when his Presidential Palace was surrounded by tanks and his government arrested by his rich opponents, only for loyal troops and people power to take the Palace back next day.
Despite the damning evidence on camera, opponents of Chavez have launched an email campaign claiming dozens of fallacies in the film, which for the most part are totally petty, wrong and/or ridiculously biased. In fact, we received one of these emails at this very website, claiming we should remove our own positive reviews of The Revolution Will Not Be Televised because of the so-called problems in the documentary. We, quite rightly, ignored the missive as the ravings of a vested interest, especially seeing as the film has won film festival awards from Seattle on down.
The Amnesty Film Festival, apparently, prefers to steer clear of controversy. As a festival supposedly interested in human rights, shame on them.
(snip)

http://www.efilmcritic.com/hbs.cgi?news&start=36&num=10

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really pathetic Amnesty withdrew the film in deference to or in fear of the obnoxious, destructive, pointless Venezuelan oligarchy. What a shame!

The film is so important no one should bypass the chance to see every minute of it.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. It is a translation. I doubt that is what was actually said. nt.

[tabasco]

13. Being an American, I agree completely.

It is my opinion that if someone had self-respect, they would throw down the titles and trappings of "royalty."

[mitchtv]

12. Thanks Judi L, I knew there was more To that story

I'd be rude too, if I were Chavez. I have no use for parasitic royals.

I did like Prince Sihanouk, however

[Andrushka]

14. Wow

Well, I wasn't aware of how the Spaniards may have been involved in the coup and attempt to install the fascists in 2002. Good for Chavez for airing the dirty laundry in front of everyone. Unfortunately, I fear the usual media beat-up will turn this into another Chavez-bashing fest. But the people of Venezuela will know exactly what he was on about.

(And Judi Lynn, you have many fans here thanks to your efforts in searching for info on Venezuela. Good for you and you are a treasure to DU!)

[Judi Lynn]

17. It adds a certain wryness to the guy's stomping out of the room, doesn't it?

He probably expected everyone would continue to grovel in his presence and no one would ever mention it. :yahoo: Score one for the people of Venezuela who DIDN'T want their elected President overthrown.

Really have enjoyed seeing your comments at D.U., Andrushka. Very glad to see someone who reads and THINKS here, watching what's happening.

[StClone]

15. Demonization of Chavez

Remember how Chavez was credited with the erroneous statement that lingist "Chomsky is dead." Well bet you didn't know this:



More amazing was the error from one year ago. Remember when Chavez spoke at the UN and said how much he liked Noam Chomsky and how sad he was that the (very much alive) man was dead? The US media chortled at this idiot’s foolishness. Well… Chavez didn’t say that. In fact, it was the mono-lingual US press that misunderstood. And instead of having another front page story – to correct the error and analyze the speed with which the media propogated it – we got this, more than two weeks later:

Published: October 6, 2006

An article on Sept. 21 about criticism of President Bush at the United Nations by President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran reported that Mr. Chávez praised a book by Noam Chomsky, the linguist and social critic. It reported that later, at a news conference, Mr. Chávez said that he regretted not having met Mr. Chomsky before he died. The article noted that in fact, Mr. Chomsky is alive. The assertion that Mr. Chávez had made this misstatement was repeated in a Times interview with Mr. Chomsky the next day.

In fact, what Mr. Chávez said was, ’’I am an avid reader of Noam Chomsky, as I am of an American professor who died some time ago.’’ Two sentences later Mr. Chávez named John Kenneth Galbraith, the Harvard economist who died last April, calling both him and Mr. Chomsky great intellectual figures.

Mr. Chávez was speaking in Spanish at the news conference, but the simultaneous English translation by the United Nations left out the reference to Mr. Galbraith and made it sound as if the man who died was Mr. Chomsky.

Readers pointed out the error in e-mails to The Times soon after the first article was published. Reporters reviewed the recordings of the news conference in English and Spanish, but not carefully enough to detect the discrepancy, until after the Venezuelan government complained publicly on Wednesday.
Editors and reporters should have been more thorough earlier in checking the accuracy of the simultaneous translation.

http://jasonyanowitz.com/articles/category/nyt-corrections

[Judi Lynn]

18. God! They really had a field day with their "story," too, didn't they?

Really shows how wildly far the "information" business has fallen, how little real professionalism there is left, at the moment.

Those early kicks landed always are the ones people remember, so they always run with the stories they want to get out long before the truth can catch up with them. Sad, isn't it?

He was called a complete fool, an idiot, etc. We've heard it all. The clowns ridiculing him were drowning in their own ignorance, too busy smearing to even make sure they understood the real story.

Glad someone decided to go ahead and tell the truth about it, anyway, even at this late date, when it's no longer "newsworhty," and the same clowns will claim they're bored, already, and why don't we move on! A-holes!

[AlphaCentauri]

20. They do the same thing in the spanish language media n/t

[EFerrari]

25. I'm going to start monitoring those outlets. Which ones would you

recommend?

[AlphaCentauri]

188. Any Miami's noticiero nacional n/t

[EFerrari]

28. Great catch. I didn't know that. n/t

[defendandprotect]

21. Chavez hit that nail on the head --- !!

But I wouldn't count him safe as long as the Cheney/Bush crowd is in office --- !!!

[redqueen]

83. Aren't some leading Dems also on the "Chavez is eeeevil" bandwagon?

Coulda sworn this wasn't just a Dem/GOP issue... I think leftist govt's are detested by both sides of the aisle up here in the country of fiscal fraud and low taxes.

:shrug:

[Hardrada]

102. Hillary is but she is also a part of the IMF globalization behemoth.

So it figures. I am so glad that brand of neoliberalism is vanishing.

[EFerrari]

120. Nancy denounced the non renewal of the RCTV license

and it sounded at though she had not idea what the context was.

[redqueen]

140. Is that possible?

Can anyone at that level not know what's been going on down there?

I dunno...

[EFerrari]

146. I believe it's very possible. But, that's just mo.

[defendandprotect]

186. Are you in DC? Well . . . yeah, the Congress is the Establishment ...

in a large sense --

they moved ALL the monied families in ---

I can tell you that I still remember the impact of JFK telling Blount that ....
was it he couldn't raise the price of steel, I think???

You could FEEL that hit the ground ---

Corporations are all there now --- Royalty has morphed into corporations --- !!!
but it has always been as RFK, Jr. says . . .

"Welfare for the rich ---
free enterprise for the poor"

[redqueen]

196. This is why I'm so shocked that DLCers have so much support.

Bleah.

[defendandprotect]

219. Right -- DLC . .. corporate wing of the Democratic party ---

Hartmann or Randi were talkin about this today ---
say DLC power waning in party ---

but still surprised that the DLC even exists in the party ---

which is supposed to be about workers --- !!!

[EFerrari]

24. Well done, Judi Lynn!

:applause:

[Judi Lynn]

26. Hi! Wanna bet we who laugh last ,laugh most LOUDLY!

You know, it's kinda quiet around here. I had assumed the anti-Venezuelan-democracy guys would be crawling all over each other to give us the benefit of their opinions on this story! :hi: :rofl:

Kinda creepy that scabby old king sent his peeps at a dead run to fling their spindly arms around Pedro Carmona, who had tried to replace Hugo Chavez, isn't it?

I'll bet if we knew what the Spanish Ambassador looked like, we'd spot him on that documentary film of all the tools jammed into
Miraflores, congratulating each other. That would be too interesting, wouldn't it?

[EFerrari]

27. LOL!

:rofl:

[mithnanthy]

34. Thank you Judi Lynn...

for providing so much information on Hugo Chavez. It gives me the truth...that I readily spread to all who are interested in the facts. I admire what Hugo has done for his people and the entire region in such a short time and I also share his cutting sense of humor. He's, what I consider, a real leader. I also wish our next president would be open to working with Chavez in some positive efforts. That's a dream, for sure.

[MinM]

35. THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED

HUGO CHAVEZ ELECTED PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA IN 1998, IS A COLORFUL, UNPREDICTABLE FOLK HERO, beloved by his nation's working class and a tough-as-nails, quixotic opponent to the power structure that would see him deposed.

Two independent filmmakers were inside the presidential palace on April 11, 2002, when he was forcibly removed from office. They were also present 48 hours later when, remarkably, he returned to power amid cheering aides. Their film records what was probably history's shortest-lived coup d'état. It's a unique document about political muscle and an extraordinary portrait of the man The Wall Street Journal credits with making Venezuela "Washington‚s biggest Latin American headache after the old standby, Cuba."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

[lumpy]

107. Thank you so much for posting this. Inspirational to say the

least; the truth and the people did prevail. We must have faith in the people of Venezuela and the leadership they have chosen.

[Judi Lynn]

115. I agree with lumpy, MinM. Everyone should see that documentary. How lucky the world is that those

Irish filmmakers were filming inside Miraflores at the very time these fools "busted their move" and tried to violently relieve Hugo Chavez of the office for which his massive voters group elected him.

The difference in the way the coup people conducted themselves and actual human beings is horrendous, and that films shows it in a way no one could duplicate. What human garbage.

[druidity33]

36. is this why

Hugo "interrupted" someone's speech? Still trying to figure out what prompted him to shout out at that particular moment. My guess is that Zapatero said something Chavez felt like he needed to respond to...

[dipsydoodle]

37. K & R and BBC link for you

Well found. :hi:

The spat began after Mr Chavez called Mr Aznar, a close ally of US President George W Bush, a fascist, adding "fascists are not human. A snake is more human."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7089988.stm

[many a good man]

39. Chavez is yelling at the wrong people

Conservative Prime Minister Aznar was in power at the time of the coup, not the Socialist Zapatero. The King is a titular figure with no control over policy. He didn't have anything to do with the coup. In fact, the King's greatest claim to fame is single-handedly bringing about democracy in Spain following the death of the fascist dictator Franco. Franco set him up for a return to monarchy but instead the king chose democracy for his people. He also rebuffed the right wing coup attempt a few years later by taking a stand for democracy. Chavez should know better.

[Don1]

42. You're wrong.

"The King is a titular figure with no control over policy."

This is wrong because Spain is a constitutional monarchy where the King is head of state and nominates (technically proposes) certain ministers. He is therefore NOT a "titular figure" and his nominations not only affect policy but directly impact other nominations.

The King has been the Head of State of Spain since 1975.

[ShaneGR]

44. LOL, uh, where did you get that information?

No he hasn't, he gave up his rule in favor of elected democracy.

[Selatius]

50. Spain's a constitutional monarchy; Carlos is head of state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Spain#The_Crown

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

55. Well...

The election of socialist leader Felipe González to the Spanish prime ministership in 1982 marked the effective end of Juan Carlos' active involvement in Spanish politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_of_Spain#Role_in_contemporary_Spanish_politics

[Flanker]

62. Active? meaning he is a dormant unelected dictator?

I would shudder the day when he wakes up then, given the fact he is their head of state and all.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

63. Is Queen Elizabeth a dictator?

Is the King of Sweden a dictator? What exactly are you getting at? If the answer is "I don't like royals" that's one thing, but then don't single out the King of Spain. Quite frankly I have a hell of a lot more respect for him than I do for a lot of other European royals, because he had actual power and gave it up.

[Freddie Stubbs]

197. Lyndon LaRouche thinks she is quite powerful

[Selatius]

100. True, but the Constitution still effectively gives him a role in government, even though he's passiv

The point being that he still has the option of exercising power, such as the power of veto, if he pleases. Being inactive is one thing, but having the ability to exercise power is another. He hasn't exercised power, but the power is still vested in him in the name of the nation's constitution.

[Flanker]

122. Evidently having an unelected, heraditary dictator

is not a good thing, he might me dormant, but his son or daughter may not be, that is if they beat daddy to the punch.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

194. Well, fine then.

I guess Belgium and Sweden are dictatorships, as well. Face it, your problem isn't with Juan Carlos, it's with the basic concept of a constitutional / parliamentary monarchy. If you'd like to start comparing the democratic process in Belgium or the Netherlands or Sweden to that of Venezuela, go right ahead. Let's see where that gets us.

[Don1]

166. Yes and he already does execute SOME power.

Like I said, he takes an active (not passive) role in nominations...and foreign policy which is why he was in Chile to begin with.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

193. I thought the whole point of this exercise...

...was to prove that he in fact had exercised his power, thus giving the Chavez supporters something with which to rake him over the coals.

[Don1]

165. Try an encyclopedia, dude.

Constitutional monarchy where his power is not as strong as in other Constitutional monarchies, but it is still there.

P.S. Only the right-wing laughs at facts.

[paulk]

45. you just don't understand

The King dissed Hugo and now he must be demonized.

Hugo can do no wrong.


Get with the program!

[Wednesdays]

53. When you can't come up with a good argument,

resort to sarcasm. :eyes:

[paulk]

56. I'm not interested in arguing with fanatics

I've come to find it a useless exercise.

[redqueen]

86. It doesn't seem like you're interested in arguing on this subect...

do you actually attempt debate, or do you just make the kind of throwaway comments you did in this thread?

[paulk]

111. well, to be honest, I used to attempt debate a lot more at DU

than I do nowadays. DU doesn't seem to have become a place for discussion so much as a place where people can get together and pat each other on the back for belonging to the same cult of the moment that they do...

Kind of like in this thread.

I have found the Chavez groupies on DU to be, quite frankly, the most consistent collection of closed minded demagogues on this entire board going back the almost six years I've been posting here. Here we have a perfect example - King Juan Carlos, by all accounts an honorable man - who was largely responsible for bringing democracy to Spain when he could have easily done the opposite, has become the target of personal attacks by the Chavez sycophants merely because he had the temerity to tell the man, who was interrupting the socialist Prime Minister of his country, to shut up.

I'm sure now that I will come under attack from these same people, because that is the pattern.

[redqueen]

113. See, do you see what you just did there?

You just called a guy who likely knew about the coup yet kept his complicit mouth shut about it an "honorable man"...

and at the SAME TIME, you demonize anyone who defends the choice of the Venezuelan people against the non-stop WH / CIA propaganda as "groupies".

Sorry, but which Russian guy brought Democracy to Russia? Is he, in your estimation, also, just for that fact alone, deserving of a pass, and to be thought of as "honorable"?

Where are the "attacks" by these "sycophants"?

[paulk]

123. I don't know that he knew about the coup.

Just cause Chavez insinuates so doesn't make it true.

[redqueen]

127. 'Swhy I said "likely" and 'shwy Chavez asked him.

Has he answered yet?

[paulk]

131. why should he answer?

It's a "when did you stop beating your wife?" question.

Pretty clever of Chavez, actually. The insinuation will stick whether there's any truth in it or not.

[redqueen]

132. HAH! You're joking!

How is him saying "I knew nothing of my employee's involvement in the coup" an answer that would imply anything to the contrary?

You're funny!

[EFerrari]

117. You have already insulted pro-Chavez DUers in this very thread

multiple times. You would seem to fit your own definition of a "fanatic".


Of course you see a pattern -- you are originating it.

If you don't want to argue with "fanatics" who are interested in fair reporting, why are you posting to this thread? I assume you have the same "ignore" and "hide threads" function we all do. You don't post any substance. You add a lot of calumny. This can't be fun for you and it's useless to those of us who are trying to drill through the cr@P to figure out what is happening in Venezuela.

[paulk]

121. "fair reporting"

that's exactly what I'm talking about. Anything remotely critical of Chavez is rejected as propaganda. Every single time.

It's a hoot, really.

I would think I posted something of substance in my reply to RQ and I perfectly understand why you don't see it.

And I would note that my original post was not to a Chavez supporter. That you have jumped into this was, however, entirely predictable. All opposition must be squashed, denigrated, destroyed.

-----------

I don't think you're the person who gets to determine what is fun for me, and you are not the only person trying to drill through crap. You don't even get to determine what is crap and what not.

[EFerrari]

124. Another insult. Well done. I'll stick with FAIR

and with credible media sources and not with ad hominem attacks, thanks!

[redqueen]

128. Amazing how those ad hominem attacks seem to be so easily confused

with debate!

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

134. I learned something this weekend that I didn't like and from a credible source.

That the government could be doing more about corruption and crime. That I didn't like it made no difference to trying to find out more about the situation. Those are two completely difference activities, for pete's sake.

And, I'm all done talking to these knee jerk spammers.

[redqueen]

137. There's lots to not like...

but no good reason to spam threads with BS.

Well, one good reason...

I can't blame ya for giving up. It's bad, and it'll only get worse, I suspect, the propaganda. And you know how popular that WH/CIA propaganda is around here, when it's directed at smearing the guy Venezuelas keep *actually* electing. (That's as opposed to the way we 'elected' bushco.)

[EFerrari]

141. It's not so much a matter of giving up as of distributing time and energy.

There are some fights that are too silly to fight. lol

[redqueen]

142. Hehe... indeed!

I just cut my losses in a coupla threads about single payer / universal insurance.

:crazy:

[EFerrari]

130. To recap:

#45. you just don't understand

The King dissed Hugo and now he must be demonized.

Hugo can do no wrong.

Get with the program!


56. I'm not interested in arguing with fanatics

I've come to find it a useless exercise.


123. I don't know that he knew about the coup.

Just cause Chavez insinuates so doesn't make it true.


121. "fair reporting"

that's exactly what I'm talking about. Anything remotely critical of Chavez is rejected as propaganda. Every single time.

It's a hoot, really.

I would think I posted something of substance in my reply to RQ and I perfectly understand why you don't see it.

And I would note that my original post was not to a Chavez supporter. That you have jumped into this was, however, entirely predictable. All opposition must be squashed, denigrated, destroyed.

I don't think you're the person who gets to determine what is fun for me, and you are not the only person trying to drill through crap. You don't even get to determine what is crap and what not.

:)

[paulk]

133. thank you for proving my point

:hi:

[EFerrari]

135. You are so welcome. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

139. You know, I trust your judgement on "what is crap." We've seen a lot of it since

the right-wing managed to gain control of almost ALL our vital media.

If they come after the interetS we may have to all get those citizen band radios, and maybe even learn the Morse Code!

I think it could get worse before it gets better.

[EFerrari]

143. The next three weeks are going to be quite a ride, I think.

Let's see how we do.

[Judi Lynn]

145. You bet. Every day until December 2nd is a potential explosion. They really don't want the people to

get that chance to vote on their own reforms. Nothing is beneath them. Can't put anything destructive in the whole world beyond their capacity to employ.

Look at what happened to the prosecutor, Danilo Anderson, who was constructing his prosecution against the coup plotters, until they bombed his car.

[EFerrari]

147. Yes. They killed him. Yet, we have so called progressives here

ignoring that death and accusing the Chavez adminstration of these acts that they've never committed. It's just puzzling, really. The facts are there for any reasonable person to find.

[Andrushka]

159. And not only that,

said poster appears to not even know what the definition of "demagogue" is. "Demagogue"? Maybe I am to my two daughters at times, but it's a stretch to call anyone that supports Chavez and calls news outlets or other posters out on their anti-Chavez BS "demagogues"! :eyes:

[paulk]

163. it fit my purpose

"Though this definition emphasizes the use of lying and falsehoods, some point out that demagogy does not require such, but that skilled demagogues often need to use only special emphasis by which an uncritical listener will be led to draw the desired conclusion himself, seeding a belief that is self-reinforced rather than one based on fact or truth.

Demagogues may make use of logical fallacies, though persuasion may require no use of logic. While it may not rely heavily upon outright lies, the use of half-truths, omissions, and distortions are what define demagogy — it is, in essence, giving bad-faith arguments for the purpose of political gain."

[nick303]

156. Amusing how the back-patting you describe

breaks out immediately downthread

[paulk]

162. also amusing is the way this crowd

goes "behind your back" as it were, to insult people.

[LanternWaste]

116. Which explains your posts on this thread....?

Which explains your posts on this thread....? :shrug:

[paulk]

126. well, Mr. Waste, I would point out that my original post

was not addressed to a Chavez supporter. I did not actively seek the "arguments" in the ensuing posts.

[redqueen]

129. That means no one else can comment on it?

How does that change anything?

:wtf:

[EFerrari]

150. What is it with these people who just call us every name in the book

but never offer any information that might affect our viewpoint?

This weekend, someone asked me if I WORKED for Chavez, if you can believe that. And all I want to do is figure out what is happening in Venezuela. Sure, I have a preference but, man, who do you have to be to accuse someone in that manner. It's just nuts.

Our media is so corrupt, they enable wars where our young people die for Halliburton. But some DUers expect them to report accurately on a Latin American leader who is challenging BushCo?

:crazy:

[Morereason]

99. Chavez does have a "big mouth", it may be on purpose

If folks notice, he get's notice and time in the media. He overdoes it, but in the process distinctions are made and people have to think. Think about the dialog that his "outbursts" have brought about? Think about the silence without these outbursts... I wonder if this is a purposeful strategy to keep a discussion of emerging facism on the world stage.

[redqueen]

114. I suspect he does it to stay visible... the better to prevent ANOTHER WH-backed coup. (nt)

[Judi Lynn]

125. He has a lot of work for the poor majority to do before our right-wing monsters slaughter him, and

he knows there's every chance in the world they will succeed one day, in spite of efforts to prevent it.

_{George Bush,} on the other hand, has a lot more people to kill before someone can figure out a way to get him to leave office without declaring a state of emergency and simply settling in forever.

_{George Bush,} at that point, would by-pass running for election again and risk not winning. He'd just take over, and dare us to do something about it, which is more or less the way he's been running things so far.

[ShaneGR]

43. Well, I wonder how long before he's completely isolated

I mean, after Venezuela's constitution has been completely gutted to ensure one party rule forever. In twenty years when Chavez is still clinging to power, political dissent is crushed immediately, will people still rush to defend him no matter what?

[GeneCosta]

46. There's no evidence of that

The more likely situation where that would happen is the United States.

The largest complaint the corporate media uses to their advantage is Chavez's call for unlimited terms. I guess that makes Australia and most Western nations "dictatorships."

[hack89]

58. They do for Castro nt

[fascisthunter]

49. Big Thank You, Judi Lynn

"Mr. King, did you know about the coup d'etat against Venezuela, against the democratic, legitimate government of Venezuela in 2002?" Chavez asked reporters. "It's very hard to imagine the Spanish ambassador would have been at the presidential palace supporting the coup-plotters without authorization from his majesty."

Now DUers see why the King had a melt down. Very interesting.....

[LaloBorges]

67. The coup Chavez doesn't like to talk about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Venezuelan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat_attempts

[fascisthunter]

68. Take Your Propaganda Elsewhere

I am not interested

[EFerrari]

69. Actually, Mr. Chavez went on teevee and did talk to the nation

about that coup. That was the start of his popularity. Thanks for bringing that up!

[Judi Lynn]

77. From what we've heard, the coup helped make Chavez a hero among the very poor.

A lot of DU'ers are very well acquainted with the fact that former President (later impeached for massive corruption) Carlos Andres Perez brought in economic measures which CRUSHED the poor, increasing the cost of their public transportation, etc. far beyond their ability to pay, and sent them running into the streets, in desperation and rage, to protest, at which time he ordered his military to move in and shoot directly into the crowds.

His government claimed they killed only around 300, the people insist he slaughtered around 3,000. He is the one against whom Chavez led his coup. Chavez was later pardoned by another Venezuelan President, after serving his sentence in prison.

Don't even begin to claim Chavez wants to hide the truth about that coup. The people will NEVER FORGET "EL CARACAZO," as the massacre was named.

A history of economic inequality and violence fuel this polarization, which gained momentum in 1989, when right-wing President Carlos Andres Perez came into power. Perez implemented harmful International Monetary Fund (IMF) structural adjustments, and accepted a massive loan from the IMF which critics claim plunged the country deeper into an economic recession. In 1992 Perez was forced from office on corruption charges.

The Caracazo, an uprising in Caracas against the Perez government in February of 1989, was met with massive military repression which left over 3,000 dead. This event marked a turning point in the country's socio-political landscape. Hugo Chavez, then a young colonel in the army, refused to participate in the Caracazco crack down and in 1992 led an attempted coup d'etat against the Perez government. When the coup failed, Chavez took the blame for it and was imprisoned until 1994.

Soon after his release Chavez began a presidential campaign which took him across the country, gaining support from diverse sectors of society.
(snip/...)

http://www.upsidedownworld.org/ven-public-opinion.htm






I would encourage anyone who has interest in finding out more about this pivotal event which truly turned a page in history, pushed the people past the point of no return, please just start researching "El Caracazo." It will give real depth and meaning to the Bolivarian revolution, as it's a prime example of high-handed exploitation of the poor by the oligarchy which they will never forget.

[Judi Lynn]

79. Read more about El Caracazo in this book:

Book Review: Cowboy in Caracas
June 4, 2007
Derrick O'Keefe

~snip~
In those years, respectable foreign commentators lauded Venezuela as a stable democracy and reliable supplier of cheap oil, and the desperate poverty was invisible. Hardy brings it out into the light. Along with his co-habitants of cardboard walled tenements, he describes enduring torturously scarce clean water, a total lack of sewage, and little to no access to health care, education and meaningful employment. Hardy’s privilege, as an American, allowed him to escape the barrio one day a week, and thus to observe some of the arrogance and racism of Venezuela’s elite.

His status as a Man of God may have helped him escape death during el Caracazo in 1989. A forgotten episode that took place several months before the Tiananmen Massacre in China, the police and armed forces savagely repressed protests and riots against a series of unpopular neo-liberal austerity measures. During these dangerous days, Hardy risked his neck to keep residents of Nueva Tacagua alive. It is estimated that as many as 3000 died during el Caracazo. But in those days the seeds of a new Venezuela were planted. Among those outraged by the bloodshed, and galvanized to rebellion, was a young army officer named Hugo Chavez Frias.

Charles Hardy left Caracas in the early 1990s, only to return a couple years later, no longer as a missionary. He has stayed and observed with great hope the popular movement that has so angered the rich of Venezuela and, indeed, the powers-that-be throughout the world.
(snip/...)

http://www.sevenoaksmag.com/commentary/cowboyincaracas.html

[redqueen]

87. ...

:rofl:

Good luck... I can see you're on a mission here... not the first intrepid spreader of corporate propaganda among these boards, and you certainly won't be the last.

:hi:

[NotGivingUp]

51. K&R!!! n/t

[Javaman]

64. the king, the CIA and moron* were all in on it. nt

[KaptBunnyPants]

66. Anyone who defends Aznar is no damn hero of Democracy.

Aznar was and is a fascist. He is also a board member of News Corp, a little FYI for all his "sensible liberal" fans at DU.

[fascisthunter]

80. "Aznar is also a board member of News Corp"

Wow... didn't know that. Wanted to highlight that tidbit.

Seems like the crop of fascists have all done the same. Buy up the media and force all voices out. Italy had the same problem with Berlusconi. What's worse is they lie and disalow others to confront them publicly like cowards.

[rainy]

72. My take on Chavez: The middle class and upper class do not like him because

for a change he really is a leader for the disenfranchised. He goes to bat for the poor which is taking money from the wealthy and middle class so they hate him and protest him etc. I do see him as a real progressive hero.

[originalpckelly]

74. Whats the big difference between a fascist and a communist?

One believes that a small group of people in a government should have absolute control over everything, the other believes that a small group of people at the top of big corporations should control everything. The key to remember is the illusion of democratization is always that, an illusion, with communism. You cannot hand absolute control over your life over to another human being for your "protection" whether it's from terrorism or big corporations. Anytime one person is the focus of a revolution, then I'd suggest that it is not a democratic revolution taking place, but a totalitarian one.

[EFerrari]

76. This thread actually has a topic. Did you read the OP? n/t

[redqueen]

88. Do topics matter to the CHAVEZ-obsessed?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

92. You're asking me?1

lol

:hi:

[redqueen]

94. Well you seemed to think there might be some link

between the topic and the relfexive CHAVEZ IS EVIL VERY BAD TERRIBLE AND AWFUL! type posts. :P

[nick303]

153. Interesting how you two did not show the same discourtesy

to rainy, the poster directly above the one you responded to, whose response was about as irrelevant as pckelly's, but did agree with your viewpoint.

[redqueen]

157. Except for one is more or less realistic

and the other shows a basic misunderstanding of the terms used.

I'd say one was more screaming out for a response than the other, due to that.

[EFerrari]

172. One post was an assessment of Chavez which was in the realm

of this discussion. The other was a disquisition on Communism in general. And, there is no discourtesy in asking someone to respond to the OP.

Interesting that you feel the need to be the thought police. On second thought, no, that's not interesting. That's boring.

[nick303]

185. Both of you have weak arguments which only serve to further prove my point

It is fun to watch you struggle though.

[GeneCosta]

108. There's a huge difference between communism and fascism

Communism is a stateless, classless society. Don't be fooled by the corporate media in believing the "communist" states were communist.

Fascism is the polar opposite of communism.

[EFerrari]

136. Not to mention, we're really talking about socialism that

the corporati want to morph into "communism" for their hit pieces.

[redqueen]

81. Hahaahahahaha...

Nice!

:thumbsup:


Bet we never get a straight answer, either.

[John Q. Citizen]

85. That is a relevant question.

[whistle]

89. Hugo Chavez is the "get-into-your-face" kind of leader that Venezuela

...needs and when he speaks truth to power, that establishment power will crumble. I applaud Chavez's courage in taking such actions on behalf of the people of Venezuela and thus bring long overdue reforms into effect for the the poor and disenfranchised people of his country.

[treestar]

91. Love the "Mr. King"

:rofl:

[goforit]

154. LOL!!!! I would love to say " Ms Queen" to elizabeth of england!!!

[goforit]

155. LOL!!!! I would love to say " Ms Queen" to elizabeth of england!!!

[DutchLiberal]

96. But reporting on Juan Carlos who says "Shut up" is MUCH more important...

:eyes:

[mdmc]

110. Go get him!

(but be polite!)
:)

[EFerrari]

138. LOL! He was. He called him "Mr. King".

:rofl:

[BornagainDUer]

151. Hugo is to sharp to have asked this question without already knowing the answer.

This could get legs.

[ohio2007]

160. Paranoia may destroy ya...

the kinks

[Judi Lynn]

164. It would only be correct if it did. I'm certain,since the Irish filmmakers were there,in Miraflores,

gettting it all down on film for posterity, there are more than enough photographs of everyone who attended the swearing in exercises of the coup President, Pedro Carmona. No doubt they can name every single grimey face there, and no doubt they know exactly that the Spanish ambassador was there, too, just as we learned Charles Shapiro,
was there to fling his tiny arms around the dried up little P.O.S., Pedro Carmona, as he attempted to seize control, after throwing out the Venezuelan constitution, the Venezuelan national assembly, the Supreme Court, etc., etc., and sending police scouring the country to arrest and imprison ALL of Hugo Chavez's cabinet members, and assistants, most of whom went into hiding.

[redqueen]

167. And we should never forget how the M$M rushed to print the WH lies

about the coup.

And the BBC, too.

Thank GOD for those Irish filmmakers! If not for them, who knows what might have happened?

[Judi Lynn]

168. Makes you shudder! We'd probably know what the right-wing-owned media told the people of Venezuela!

Sorta like the TOTAL NEWS BLACKOUT during the time they kidnapped Chavez. You recall they also jammed up the one state tv station so no OTHER news could get out, either, and people were frantically trying to figure out a way to get their little tv station up and running so the people of Venezuela who voted for him would know what the holy hell had happened, and it took forever for them to get it back in operation.

We'd know about as much as the ordinary people in Caracas would have known, if there hadn't been others on the inside besides the coup plotters.

Those bastards should be in prison right now. I hope to see the day they will be.

[Judi Lynn]

158. Chavez to King: Whose side were you on during failed coup?

Chavez to King: Whose side were you on during failed coup?
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:45am AEDT

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has demanded that Spain's King Juan Carlos reveal whose side he was on during a failed coup attempt against him in 2002, a day after the monarch demanded Mr Chavez "shut up" at the Ibero-American Summit in Chile.

"The debate is now under way, Mr King," Mr Chavez told journalists.

"Were you aware of the coup... against the legitimate, elected, democratic Government of Venezuela in 2002?" he said, the latest development in an increasingly bitter spat between Spain and Venezuela.

His remarks come after the King told Mr Chavez to "just shut up," Saturday (local time) and stormed out just before the scheduled end of the transatlantic forum, visibly furious at the Venezuelan leader's description of his former prime minister Jose Maria Aznaras a "fascist".

The dispute was a dramatic finale for the 17th meeting of the heads of state and government of Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries in Latin America, Spain, Portugal and Andorra, which started on Thursday.

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/12/2087881.htm?section=justin

[Judi Lynn]

170. This is a passage from a post by Mika of N.Y. Dem. Rep. Jose Serrano's speech

on U.S. Policy toward Latin America. It is worth reading in every possible way. In this passage he is discussing Hugo Chavez:

So Hugo Chavez in Venezuela decides that he’s going to revolutionize the way Venezuela behaves. He came to the Bronx. He visited the Bronx. He spoke to us and he said something very interesting. He told us who he was. And you never hear about this in this country. He told us he was a kid, very poor, who didn’t have shoes until he was a teenager, walked barefoot, who wanted only one dream in life, to become a major league baseball pitcher. And he was pretty good. But from where he lived, to be seen by major league scouts, he had to go to Caracas. And he was told that the only way to get to Caracas was to join the Army. So he joined the Army. He jokes that it was the worst mistake his country ever made, letting him join the Army, because when he began to travel with the Army he noticed something very interesting of Venezuela. He noticed that people who looked like him were very poor, and other folks who didn’t look like him were living in a country with a lot of oil and a lot of money. He also noticed that not all neighborhoods were like his. He thought all of Venezuela was like his neighborhood, and it wasn’t. It had serious pockets of serious money. So he began to grow a conscience about that; became a military leader, eventually led him into politics. He got elected. And when he got elected he immediately set out to change the way Venezuela behaves. And the opposition to him knows that. That’s why they all admit that he’s so popular within his country, by the folks who are at the bottom.

But, you know, I get to watch Spanish television from Latin America on my cable system in the Bronx, and you know, as tough as we are in American politics, some of the stuff you hear about President Chavez from the owners of these stations who open up their morning programming by reminding people that their President has curly hair and is dark skinned, as if that was a sin, but it’s such a revolutionary thing that has happened in Latin America that some people still can’t get over it. So he’s an idiot. He’s crazy. He’s corrupt.

But even the opposition, at times, in attempting to say something against him, really says dumb things. I wish I had the name of the person, although I wouldn’t use it on the House floor, but during the last elections in Venezuela when the polls indicated that President Chavez was at 62 percent of the vote, one of the New York Times reporters, I think it was, asked this leader of the opposition, Why do you think he’s so popular? And the gentleman said, and this has to be the dumbest statement ever made by a politician in the history of the world, the gentleman said, You would be popular too if you were always building schools and hospitals for the poor. Well, to that I say, what American teenagers taught us to say, duh. I mean, isn’t that the reason why you elect people to take care of those in the society who need help amongst others? Because you don’t play class warfare. So they’re saying that because he’s building hospitals and because he’s building schools, he’s very popular. Well, yeah, Mr. Opposition. Why didn’t you try that when you were in power for the last couple of hundred years to do some of that?
(snip/...)

Mika's post in the Latin American Forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x550

[Dave From Canada]

171. Yes, King Hugo will be using the so-called coup to retain power for decades to come. It's his

version of TERRA, TERRA, TERRA!

[Judi Lynn]

173. How would that work? Rather than gibbering, it would be appropriate to explain what you're trying

to communicate. We're not mind readers.

If you have time, please indicate what "TERRA, TERRA, TERRA!" means.

[Pavulon]

176. I think the poster

is referring to the obvious consolidation of power by chavez that will lead to him retaining power for a very long term. Just like Putin, but he has a much better PR firm. Same goal.

I started out neutral to chavez, but with the passage of time it is quite obvious that he is working very hard to stay in office. He is using his political position to gerrymander his way into a permanent job.

So as long as we keep buying oil as the number one importer of the ONLY thing of value that comes from venezuela, hi gets to live.

The minute the money is screwed up, he is as dead as hoffa.

[Judi Lynn]

179. He may come to thank you for your elaboration on his collection of words.

I wouldn't know if you're correct or not.

I've heard in charismatic churches, when one person stands up and starts gibbering, others will come forward to explain the gibberish as being the most divinely inspired revelation.

I wonder if anyone has ever recorded any of these moments of transcendence. Should be saved for all mankind, without a doubt. Placed within a leathern book, with gilded pages. What we could learn.

[Pavulon]

181. Get back to me when power transitions

until then the chavez worship here is the oddity. Like he is the new che , fighting the man for world equality..

I have been there, venezuela is a 3rd word impoverished nation. There is a massive gap between income levels, very little middle class.

Was like that in 01, still like that in 05. Will be like that in 08 on the next trip. That is not a commentary on the people, only that chavez is not running the a movement that is nationwide. I don't talk politics on business trips, but customers do. Especially after drinks. He is not the jesus christ and savior to all people.

Chavez is like paris hilton, he is just doing this to stay in the press.

Hope he does not come out with a sex tape.

[Judi Lynn]

209. I'm not looking. I'm still trying to recover from the Nathan Sproul/Mitch McConnell tape.

Nathan Sproul, Mitch McConnell



Beep.

[ronnie624]

201. :

:rofl:

[Pavulon]

174. Or until oil drops

no more animal farm, the benevolent dictator will be lucky to live. They generally end up dead at the hands of the people who put them in power.

Or someone wants all the power he has tied up, then pop goes the weasel.

He is nothing new.

[EFerrari]

177. I wish I had a nickel for everyone of these predictions

that never seem to come true.

[Pavulon]

178. He is still in office...

check back in when putin..chavez turns power over to the next elected official and releases the absolute power he has now...

Don't let your beard grow in the mean time..long and grey.

[EFerrari]

180. He is in office because he was elected to office.

But please don't let me derail your dire predictions.

[Pavulon]

182. Well, when he leaves office something

significant will have happened. Bottom line Bush is out, no matter what. Chavez is stacking the deck to stick around. You either choose to ignore it or don't care.

Washington did it when he had absolute power, Regan did sum it up well..

“This is a solemn and most momentous occasion; and yet, in the history of our nation, it is a commonplace occurrence. The orderly transfer of authority as called for in the Constitution routinely takes place as it has for almost two centuries and few of us stop to think how unique we really are.”


Until then he is playing animal farm with our money. We are his biggest customer, BY FAR.

[EFerrari]

183. Oh, for pete's sake. Bush was never elected even once.

And your predictions about Chavez are just that, predictions. At least, they're free. And pardon me while I :puke: over you quoting that murderer.

[Pavulon]

184. Every administration put

communists in the dirt in south america. For decades it was policy. The quote is about power transitioning. Elections aside, we get a new president shortly.

Like I said, he is nothing new. PM me when he leaves office peacefully and leaves all control behind, I'll ship you a bottle of scotch.

It does not count if some other person blows his head off and takes over.

Until then he is no different than the rest of the benevolent dictators.

Any person with any sense can see he is taking action to consolidate power and retain control of the system.

Has he been giving away heating oil yet, oh, maybe there is no benefit this year for him.

Sadly he is all paris on the outside, putin on the inside.

[Andrushka]

189. That post

went from the sublime to the ridiculous very quickly, now didn't it?

"Has he been giving away heating oil yet, oh, maybe there is no benefit this year for him.

Sadly he is all paris on the outside, putin on the inside."


:crazy:

[Pavulon]

204. Like paris

he is a media whore..Just not as literally. Like putin he is setting up shop to stay around and pull the strings.

Any person with any common sense can search articles and see the trend.

Tired of hearing about him. He gets more press than people who are really important.

He runs a 3rd world nation, wears a lot of red, and "speaks truth to power" so I guess that combination plays to some people.

[AlphaCentauri]

210. Poor people listen to him

Carlos Andres Perez and the others never tough about the poor that's the reason why Chavez is so appealing to them.

[Pavulon]

211. The poor like putin too..

rhetoric about empowering the languishing nations economy.. In trade lets not worry about term limits and transitions of power.

[AlphaCentauri]

218. They need to feed their children

..for them is more important to feed their children than to keep experimenting with economic formulas that have fail for them in the last 20 years.

[AlphaCentauri]

199. There shouldn't be leftist in latinamerica

Acording to the RW nuts Carlos Montaner and Alvaro Vargas Llosa they predicted that by now there shouldn't be no "izquierdistas" in latinamerica, they were wrong big time, Why?, becouse they never talk about poverty.

[Clanfear]

200. Hugo, just because you are paranoid

Does not mean they aren't out to get you. :rofl:

Hugo Chavez feels 'persecuted like Christ'
By Gary Cleland
Last Updated: 1:01pm GMT 13/11/2007



Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, back in Caracas after a diplomatic spat with the King of Spain, has likened his situation to the persecution of Jesus Christ.


Mr Chavez, who was told by King Juan Carlos to "shut up" at a summit in Chile, said if he were to keep quiet "the stones of the people of Latin America would cry out", paraphrasing words used by Christ in Jerusalem shortly before his crucifixion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/13/wchavez113.xml

[Judi Lynn]

208. Newer addition to the story for DU'ers who DO read for comprehension:

Chavez says king showed arrogance, Venezuela doesn't need Spanish investment
The Associated Press
Published: November 13, 2007

~snip~
The spat began Saturday when Chavez accused former Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar of backing a coup that briefly removed him from power in 2002 and repeatedly called Aznar "fascist" in an address at the summit of leaders from Latin America, Spain and Portugal.

Spain's current socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, then asked Chavez to be more diplomatic and show respect for other leaders despite political differences.

Chavez said he stands by his view that Aznar is a "fascist," adding that he was surprised to hear Zapatero defending him. He called it "absurd" that his comments about Aznar, just because he was an elected leader, should offend Spain as a whole.

"They elected Hitler, right?" Chavez said. "Does that mean that no one can attack Hitler either?"

Recounting Spain's history of colonial rule in Latin America, Chavez called the King's remark a reflection of "500 years of arrogance."
(snip)

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/13/america/LA-GEN-Venezuela-Spain.php

[dipsydoodle]

213. Found this from the 12th

Mexico, Nov 12 (Prensa Latina) For the second day in a row, the Mexican newspaper La Jornada criticized the attacks by Spanish King Juan Carlos I and President Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero on Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Columnist Carlos Fernandez-Vega said in an article that monarchy is not precisely the best face of democracy, and the best defense of the latter cannot come from the former.

The journalist wondered what Spain is doing with King Juan Carlos heading the State, and added that only the Spaniards' balances or political inertias could provide a fairly believable answer.

It is understood that the king defends one of its favorite subjects, Jose Maria Aznar, because they come from the same school, Franco's regime, but it is incredible that Zapatero, who calls himself a socialist, defends such a terrible person, he said.

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={F26A826C-6662-4C4E-9686-B5D4EE0BC483}&language=EN

Juan Kerr might be a more appropriate name for him.

[Judi Lynn]

216. Seems just about right! Very apt.