Cuba Cracks Down On Web Access

[pinto]

(AP) Cuba is tightening its control over the Internet, prohibiting Internet access over the low-cost government phone service most ordinary citizens have at home under a new law announced Friday.

The move could affect hundreds, perhaps thousands of Cubans who access the Internet without authorization from their homes, using computers and Internet accounts that have been borrowed or purchased on the black market for as much as $50 for 80 hours a month.

Most Cubans do not have authorized access to the World Wide Web, although many can access international e-mail and a more limited government-controlled intranet at government jobs and schools.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/tech/main592416.shtml

[demdave]

1. Censorship in Cuba...I don't believe it.

[private_ryan]

3. I don't either

waiting for one of the DU marxists to come and clear this up for me.

[Blitz]

38. That didn't take long, did it?

Cubans live in a democracy where their votes count dontcha know ... and they're wealthy!! We Americans can only dream of having Cuban-style wealth one day!! The government is hiding the fact that thousands of American raft people are trying to sneak into Cuba where the streets are paved with gold and people of every political stripe (all with free internet access) can talk about whatever they wish. Right wing and left wing newspapers and magazines compete for the attention of Cuba's politically diverse population, which is fully informed (they get access to scores of unregulated news channels that you can only dream about, you benighted Yankee!!).

Oh, the things you learn on DU . . .

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

42. I lived in the Soviet Union

My family members lived in Cuba for many years. My closest cousin, who is now in Israel, grew up there. Somehow, she is not itching to go back.

Don't assume. I know much more about the worker's paradise B.S. that you're peddling (from first hand experience) than you might imagine. I've seen all of the same propoganda ... before it was translated from the original Russian.

[Mika]

44. I knew that you haven't been there

"Don't assume."


I was only assuming that you haven't been to Cuba. Actually, it was more an educated guess, based on the lack of accurate information of current Cuba & the B.S. you're peddling.

Thanks for clearing up that one point. You haven't been to Cuba.

[Mika]

57. Funny..

.. how so many "experts" on Cuba have never been there.

[Say_What]

46. Meanwhile back in the USSA aka the Banana Empire, civil liberties continue

to be gutted in the name of *national security*. A country ruled by corporations through a selected pResident; a media owned and operated by the same corporations that pull the corrupt political strings of the puppets who serve them in the one-party-two-name system that is a joke to everyone on the planet except US sheeple who have nary a clue to the reality about to engulf them. But, like good little Sheeple swallowing everything fed to them by the propaganda machine they think everything in the Banana Empire is Yankee Doodle dandy and that everyone else on the planet is wrong. Well, as the saying goes, "Ignorance is bliss." Duh.

[AromaticSocks]

69. Do you live in America?

Home of the free and the brave. Cuba sucks and they need to get rid of castro the dictator.

[number6]

73. get this

!!! BUSH SUCKS !!! got it .. we need to get rid of Bu$H the dictator.
:hi: have a nice day! :smoke: send him to the moon with Castro..

[AromaticSocks]

76. Of course Bush sucks

But castro sucks more and more and more...

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

48. Speaking of having to sneak to Cuba..

"The government is hiding the fact that thousands of American raft people are trying to sneak into Cuba.."

Fact is, Blitz, it is our dictatorial government of the USA that prevents hundreds of thousands Americans from travelling annually to Cuba without special authorization. Despite the travel sanctions, hundreds of thousands of Americans do sneak to Cuba annually, and the W* admin, like the KGB, is cracking down on little old ladies and retirees who go to Cuba for bicycle trips, dive lessons, and such. We Americans are banned by our own government jackboots, despite the fact that the MAJORITY of both the House and the Senate have voted for bills to end the sanctions for four years in a row. Only to have said bills eliminated due to threat of Pretzelputz's veto or written out undemocraticaly by Rwingnuts in secret committee. Despite the fact that the majority of Americans want to end the sanctions on Cuba and to end the sanctions by our own government on our travel rights.

Freedom? Not yet.

Poll: Americans on Cuban Sanctions
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=770

[AromaticSocks]

71. Why have you not moved to Cuba?

If cuba is so much better than America then why are you here instead of there in cuba?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

82. Some Americans would like to move there when they retire

but at some point, someone in government figured that out, and a law was passed to prohibit anyone receiving Social Security checks in Cuba.

There's a D.U. poster who knows a whole lot about this. If she sees this thread, she might add her first hand knowledge about this.

Odd, isn't it?

From what I heard, Cubans who had been working on base, at Guantanamo for many years lost their pensions when this law went into effect. Odd way to repay their loyalty, wouldn't you say?

Edited to add photo:

[Osolomia]

60. 2 million people from all over the world freely travelled all over Cuba

this year.

Evidently you weren't one of them who've been flocking to the #1 destination in the Caribbean for over 10 post-Cold War years now.

[AromaticSocks]

67. Please fly me to cuba

After I load up on cigars get me the hell out of there. Pronto!

Screw Castro and his dictates.

[Blitz]

4. Of course it's unbelievable

Cuba is a free and open democracy and Castro is the popular and freely elected leader of his people. Obviously, this story is just more propoganda from the Miami Mafia and their anti-democratic friends in Washington.

Did I get that about right?

[joshcryer]

5. Castro is popular though.

Anyone who denies that is just ignorant... I could care less about the intrinsics of the Cuban system with regards to this fact. People (albeit primarily in the third world) like Castro. Call it propaganda, call it whatever.

[mobuto]

6. People like Castro, fine

and Castro isn't the worst dictator on the planet.

But the man's still a dictator and Cuba has an awfully authoritarian and repressive system of government. To deny that is either disingenious or else a sign of wilfull ignorance.

[Mika]

8. To say that without proof (nor any links) is disingenious

I have been to Cuba many times, including during the 1997-98 election season.

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[mobuto]

11. And the Soviet Constitution of 1936

guaranteed Soviet citizens full democracy and the most progressive and comprehensive list of human rights available anywhere in the world. It outlawed all extant forms of oppression.

And we all know just how closely the 1936 Soviet State resembled that described in the 1936 Constitution...

[Mika]

12. And the US constitution too

Who the hell are we to point fingers at Cuba, telling them to clean up their back yard, while ours is littered with trash?

[mobuto]

18. We?

Speak for yourself, Mika.

The US is far from perfect, but it is nevertheless a pluralistic democracy with an established rule of law.

Your attempt to characterize the shut-down of the only private internet access available to the Cuban people as something that might happen in the United States is dishonest on its face, and reflects poorly on you as a trusted contributor to this forum.

In 2003, Human Rights Watch again reported that "severe restrictions on basic civil and political rights" are a feature of Cuban existence. To deny this is to deny reality.

[Mika]

22. We, as in the USA gov

And it is our government, democracy and all, right?

I don't care whether or not you consider me "a trusted contributor to this forum". The members of this forum are free to decide for themselves without your dictating.

As far as HRW goes, check this,
http://www.google.com/search?domains=hrw.org&sitesearch=www.hrw.org&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=usa

To deny that the US's back yard is littered with human right violations is to deny reality.

Like I said before.. who are "we" (as in: the US gov) to point fingers at, and condemn, Cuba?

[Sterling]

24. We are an oligarcy

with an elaborate scam of a democratic process and fake free press. Lets be honest here right.

I happen to agree Castro sucks too, a spade is a spade. I just would like to focus on my own countries problems, that is my duty as a citizen.

[rman]

84. the established rule of law is being changed

to the advantage of corporations and the wealthy elite, since they run the government that makes the laws that supposedly regulate corporations. Hence "voluntary self-regulation" for the energy industry (increased norms for emission of polution). "cause it's better for everyone".
Why don't civilians get to volutarily regulate themselves?

You never heard any neocon say that the constitution is outmoded?
So what's left of the 4th amendment?

[joshcryer]

20. Cuba is authoritarian to the extent that its society must adapt...

...to unjust policies abroad.

[mobuto]

21. Unjust policies abroad?

While I strongly disagree with the United States' Cuba policy, that excuse just doesn't fly. Nothing excuses forty years of dictatorship; the ends do not justify the means. The buck for the Cuban government's treatment of its own people has to stop with Fidel Castro.

[joshcryer]

25. Yeah, you need central planning when your economy is hit...

They've managed to decentralize their economy greatly, but you still are going to need heavy planning when your resources are low like they are. This is simply common sense.

Cuba isn't a dictatorship, but it's not a direct democracy, either. No place on earth is, that I know of, though. Everyone practices different flavors of democracy, here in the US we have a democratic republic, does that make us a dictatorship?

[Mika]

27. So, the Cubans kicked Batista's ass out only to bend over for Castro

You are dreaming.

To suggest that the Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future, and/or that one man has ruled Cuba with an iron fist for 40+ years against their will, is outright uninformed.

The Cuban people have proven, historically, their ability to quite readily overthrow any government of Cuba, including the brutal, fully US government and US organized crime backed Batista. To think that Cubans have just sat back after the revolution and allowed themselves to be dictated to is absurd. And an insult to all Cubans in Cuba.

Does Castro force one of the best education systems with the highest literacy rate on Cuba's children? * Does Castro force one of the best universal health care systems on the Cuban people, resulting in the lowest infant mortality rate and the highest longevity rate in the West? * Does Castro force the Cuban people to submit to a representative parliamentary democratic system? †

If you believe that Castro forces this on the Cuban people, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.


*- http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm
†- http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

[mobuto]

85. Nonsense

The Cuban people have proven, historically, their ability to quite readily overthrow any government of Cuba, including the brutal, fully US government and US organized crime backed Batista. To think that Cubans have just sat back after the revolution and allowed themselves to be dictated to is absurd.

How about rewriting the paragraph above, except replacing "Cuban" with "Russian?" Clearly Stalinist Russia wasn't a dictatorship, because the Russian people have proven, historically, their ability to quite readily overthrow any government of Russia, including the brutal, fully US government and US organized crime back Czar. Your argument is facile and circular.

Does Castro force the Cuban people to submit to a representative parliamentary democratic system?

Except its no more representative or powerful in its own right than its East German equivalent. A parliament on paper is not necessarily a parliament in reality. And leading human rights organizations agree with me.

[Say_What]

50. Ask hundreds of thousands of Latinos and indigenous peoples around

the globe including our own Native Americans just how *just* US policies are.

Nothing excuses the rape, murder, pilage and plunder that Uncle Sam has done around the globe since WWII and continues to do in the name of *democracy*. Time we looked at our own faults and cleaned up our own mess and let Cuba take care of their own.

[Mika]

51. Speaking of taking care of their own..

Unfortunately, our government is too busy pointing blood soaked fingers at Cuba's imperfections to see the festering decay here at home.

Although Cuba's government isn't insisting, it seems that the US could take a couple of pointers from Cuba.



http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

It {Cuba} has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990.  That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

[Osolomia]

56. If the Cuban government's treatment of its own people

is a bad as you would like us to believe then don't you think that at least some of the tens of millions of people from all over the world who've freely travelled all over Cuba in recent years would have noticed and said so by now?

[Mika]

59. Can't trust foreigners

They're all Marxists, so people from all over the world can't be trusted. ;-)

[Osolomia]

62. They're not all foreigners! Tens of thousands of Americans have been too

Including a steady stream of House Reps and Senators and Governors and State Legislators and other Americans.

Is their reaction to Cuba any different from the Rest of the World's?

[Mika]

63. I know that

See my post #48 (if its not gone by the time you read this).

Americans who have had to sneak around the US travel ban have to remain pretty quiet, or have Bush's & Ashcroft's OFAC jackboots bust their door down and haul them off to a US gulag if they don't pay up (kinda like thugs on a shakedown).

[Osolomia]

75. But the DUers around here make much ado about censorship in Cuba

Hypocrites.

[Osolomia]

55. LOL! It’s 2004 and Americans are still banned from traveling to Cuba

But evidently the right wing propagandists around are more concerned about internet access on the embargoed island! Gee, perhaps the second sentence of the thread's article explains why:

The move could affect hundreds, perhaps thousands of Cubans who access the Internet without authorization from their homes, using computers and Internet accounts that have been borrowed or purchased on the black market for as much as $50 for 80 hours a month.

Betcha it's the money and not freedom of speech in Cuba that brings gusanos out of the closet.

What's that Bush was saying a couple of months ago about tightening the embargo? What's that it says in the license agreement of all the software on your computer about sale or use in embargoed Cuba?

[Osolomia]

64. Not having links to back up your claims is disengenious

and a sign of wilfull ignorance, especially time after time, and especially in the face of the thousands of links on this issue that have been posted on this forum, especially time after time, especially just for you.

[Say_What]

41. BLINKERS ON!! and STILL asleep at the switch

Now that Patriot Act II is being signed into law in bits and pieces just how long will it be before US sheeple wake up to the fact that their own rights are disappearing faster than you can say *petty dictator*.

<clips>

Stealth Implementation of "PATRIOT ACT II"

Lost amid the tumult surrounding Saddam Hussein’s December 14 capture was enactment of a measure radically extending federal counter-terrorism powers. Most of the details of H.R. 2417, the Intelligence Authorization Act for fiscal year 2004 "are secret, including the total cost of the programs, which are estimated to be about $40 billion," noted an AP story. That amount is "slightly more than Bush had requested." The measure’s publicized portions include new FBI powers "to demand financial records from casinos, car dealerships, and other businesses," as well as several pilot programs permitting data exchanges between agencies.

Representative Ron Paul (R-Texas) opposed the measure, insisting that it "should outrage every single American citizen." "It appears we are witnessing a stealth enactment of the enormously unpopular ‘PATRIOT II’ legislation that was first leaked several months ago," stated Rep. Paul in a November 20 speech on the House floor. "These expanded police powers will enable the FBI to demand transaction records from businesses … without the approval or knowledge of a judge or grand jury. This was written into the bill at the 11th hour over the objections of members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which would normally have jurisdiction over the FBI."

"I also have concerns about the rest of the bill," continued Rep. Paul. "One of the few things we do know about this final version is that we are authorizing even more than the president has requested for the intelligence community.... Despite the tens of billions we spend on these myriad intelligence agencies, it is impossible to ignore the failure of our federal intelligence community to detect and prevent the September 11 attacks."

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2004/01-12-2004/insider/patriotact.htm

[Osolomia]

61. That Americans have been complicitly travel banned for so long

based on a pack of lies and bullshit was damn good evidence of what the Bushistas could get away with without much opposition and evidently they reckoned right.

What good is internet access if you're illiterate, or insist on keeping blinders glued to your face? I'll take education and health care and housing and food first thank you.

[joshcryer]

2. What's the rational reason for "Resolution 180/2003"?

C'mon, that's bogus...

[Mika]

7. My god, a law regulating and taxing internet accounts?

Everyone knows that the internet is untaxed and unregulated and unmonitored by the US government.. right? :crazy:

So, you can't get internet service on the black market, or can't hook up your house to your neighbor's power, or can't steal your neighbor's cable TV in Cuba. OH MY GOD, BOMB THEM NOW!!


Contrary to the laughable story, every Cuban has "authorized access" to the internet in the public libraries, and, just like in American libraries, their use might be monitored.

I know this. because I have been to Cuba many times and seen the library computers in use, browsing or printing documents, research or homework, by ordinary Cubans.

More Cubans are getting personal computers at home every day, but the antiquated phone system isn't capable of handling the load. Cuba has several ongoing joint ventures to fully upgrade the phone system (of course, the US is stamping its feet over Mexico's and Canada's partcipation in these ventures).

If the US embargo weren't in place, it would be US companies and workers getting the contracts to build out Cuba's infrastructure. But no. Apparantly we don't need no stinkin jobs here, and the US government doesn't want Cubans to get modern internet w/US companies.
:shrug:

----

Poll: Americans on Cuban Sanctions
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=770
-
Poll: Cuban-Americans focus is local
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/6269237.htm

Sadly, only ONE candidate for
US president openly states that he
would end this unjust and insane
policy against Cuba AND Americans.

That candidate is Dennis Kucinich.

-The Democratic Presidential Candidates on Cuba-
http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1.htm

[mobuto]

9. Correct.

In the United States, the internet is untaxed and unregulated, and uncensored internet access is readily available to all.

[Mika]

10. Cubans get it for free

Maybe you should reread my above post. All Cubans have access to the internet too.


How do you get online?

Don'tcha need a regulated phone? Or a regulated cable company?

You don't pay taxes on these?

[NashVegas]

13. Kinda Like Getting a Free Car and No Access to Gas

Just how much?

When was the last time you traced a logged IP to the .cu domain? How many sites do you know off the top of your head with the .cu domain?

When was the last time you spoke to a Cuban on the IRC or an instant messenger? On a popular, world-wide message board?

I'm not fond of our policy towards that nation, but I'm not blind to the fact that some countries have more people online, exposed to the rest of the world, than others.

[Mika]

17. I communicate with my friends in Cuba regularly

Both by phone and email.

Several frequent DU.

[Sterling]

31. I have even seen a Cuban smile before.

You would think they are all beaten like dogs daily from what the US elite want you to think about Cuba. It aint pretty a lot of the time but I don't see the point in tearing them down while we have our own very real internal problems to face.


Many of the advantages Americans have over Cubans is soley due to our wealth not our freedoms.

[joshcryer]

33. That goes for everything, my friend.

You said, "Many of the advantages Americans have over Cubans is soley due to our wealth not our freedoms."

That's true for the advantages we have over anyone. The poorest of the poor Americans are freaking wealthy compared to some in the third world. Economics is everything. Which is precisely why it's unjust to embargo people we don't like. Gifts are far better weapons than bombs.

[Mika]

35. Cubans are rich, my friends

"The poorest of the poor Americans are freaking wealthy compared to some in the third world."


Do they have universal high quality health care in the USA? Nope.

Do they have high quality education in a safe environment for their children regardless of income in the USA? Nope.

Do they have fair representation and have their votes counted in the USA? Nope

EVERY Cuban does, and by this measure, they are socially wealthy.

[joshcryer]

39. Wasn't comparing to Cuba.

Was comparing to places in general.

Cuba had to make a lot of sacrifices. The fact that people are having to regulate the phone lines here makes it overwelmingly obvious that sacrifices must be made. In the US, there exists the wealth to have cheap unlimited internet access, thus ones freedoms are expanded and no sacrifices have to be made in that regard.

[Mika]

43. Not so cheap

School boards all over America are having to reduce their internet access due to the soaring costs, and thanks to the US corporate internet and government.

In Cuba internet access in schools is expanding. Free.

[joshcryer]

87. $4 a month is cheaper than $80 for 50 hours...

...that's how much you can get unlimited, unrestricted, dialup access for. I know, because I've had it for the last year, and would download gigs of data a month. I think my record was 46 gigs before I got broadband.

[Mika]

93. On the black market?

If you reread the article in the lead post you'll see that it is the black market profiteers and scammers who have been shut down in Cuba. Internet access is available to all who can afford legitimate ISP service, or they can access the net for free in a library, just like the USA.


From the lead article,

E-net is the largest of a handful of Internet providers in Cuba ..
-
E-net customers who do not have the dollar phone service can keep accessing the Internet with the ordinary phone service with special cards sold at Etecsa offices, the letter says.

[joshcryer]

94. That's what I'm saying.

If there is a demand for the $80 for 50 hours thing, then clearly people want it. So obviously they could use more resources, and in that regard they are not as wealthy as other countries.

A Cuban gets about $300 a month, I think. That's more than enough to pay for that $4 internet access if they actually had it. (Especially since they don't have to pay rent, etc.)

Cuba has electricity problems too, so Cubans are encouraged to not by electronic devices. Everything has to be very managed. In the US, we don't have this problem.

There are different kinds of freedoms.

[Sterling]

29. Computers cost $.

People in Cuba are poor. I think it is great that they have access at all. Quite a surprise to me as I have been fed anti Castro propaganda that leads me to expect Cuda is a slave albor camp and Castro eats babies.

I bet once we step off Cubas nuts for a minute they may start having an economay that can afford their citizens the luxury of being lazy and arogant too.

[mobuto]

15. Really?

Cubans get unrestricted access to the internet, from their homes, for free?

Don'tcha need a regulated phone? Or a regulated cable company?

In the United States, phone and cable companies are unregulated. But that confuses two different types of regulation. Even ten years ago, when phone service was indeed regulated, it was service that was regulated as well as competition between phone companies, and not the use of the lines. Don't pretend there's not a marked difference between the two situations.

[Mika]

23. Yes

All Cubans have access to free internet at their neighborhood library, just like in the USA. ISP delivery to a Cuban home does cost, if there is a node available.

[joshcryer]

32. I thought I read something about there being fiber laid recently?

Like, they're wiring up the cities. Did I dream that up? Whatever happened with that?

[Mika]

36. First things first

Schools and the medical system take priority in Cuba. Period. Those are the priorities that the Cuban people demand.

When the resources become available, personal access to the internet will develop.

Yet another reason to end the US sanctions on Cuba and Americans.

[mobuto]

65. That's meaningless

There is no privacy at the library, therefore there is no freedom. Its like holding an election and denying the participants secret ballots. If you're worried that you're being monitored, you're a lot less likely to seek out dissenting or subversive views. And the tolerance of those views is the cornerstone of a free society.

[Mika]

102. Then, by your measure..

"There is no privacy at the library, therefore there is no freedom. "

Then, according to your measure, there is no "freedom" in America for those not able to afford PC's an ISPs themselves.

Maybe we should be rectifying America's loss of freedom before commanding that Cuba do something the we don't.

[Sterling]

26. All who can afford it

Just don't sell any glass water pipes over the net for sure.

[joshcryer]

19. I'm all for unregulated, totally open, browsing at libraries.

If you aren't, then I don't know what to say. This is any library, anywhere. I think anonymous access should be available to anyone. Terminals ought to be completely open and free. I for one can go to any library near here and access the internet without a library card. This is not a 'rule' so much a loophole, but you'd have the government regulate this loophole, no?

I see no rationale...

[Desperadoe]

14. US Cracks Down On Web Access In PA

Child Porn Law Debated in Court By Michelle Delio
Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,61840,00.html

10:59 AM Jan. 08, 2004 PT

Blocking access to websites doesn't interfere with free speech because Internet addresses aren't real, according to the Pennsylvania attorney general's office.

State attorneys opposing a challenge to the Pennsylvania law that requires ISPs to block access to websites containing child pornography argued to a Philadelphia federal court this week that "a URL is neither a person, nor a real forum, nor a limited commodity."

"It is a little string of letters and numbers that acts as a superficial label," they argued in a brief. "Disablement of an ISP's customers' access to a particular URL for even an indefinite time does not implicate First Amendment rights."




Opponents of the law are asking the judge to strike down the law because it is "well-intentioned but technologically misguided." During three days of sometimes heated arguments in response to a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Democracy and Technology, the attorney general's procedure for identifying and blocking offending sites was attacked.<snip>

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,61840,00.html

[Desperadoe]

16. Best part of the US Crackdown

"From reading that law, It appears that the Pennsylvania district attorney has been anointed prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner," said attorney Harvey Jacobs, who specializes in Internet law.

"I didn't see any provision for judicial determination of whether certain website content is kiddie porn. I did not see any due process procedures for website owners to challenge the determinations," Jacobs said.

and from another article on the same case:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,57804,00.html

"If police and federal agents can no longer access these sites, how will they be able to locate and prosecute the owners and users of them?" said John Morris, staff counsel for the Center for Democracy and Technology, which last week filed a request under Pennsylvania's right-to-know law seeking information on which sites have been blocked.

Pennsylvania state law 7330 (PDF), which passed late last year, puts the onus on Internet service providers to block Pennsylvania customers' access to websites containing child porn.

Such blocks would probably affect all users of national ISPs, as it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for ISPs to block only Pennsylvania subscribers' access to such sites.

Mike Fisher, Pennsylvania's attorney general, has sent letters to an unknown number of ISPs over the past few months demanding that the ISPs block Pennsylvania subscribers' access to at least 423 websites or face a $5,000 fine, according to news reports. ..................


Mike Fisher is, of course, a fair-haired Repuke who..............

On Monday, December 15, 2003 , Attorney General Mike Fisher resigned from the Office of Attorney General and was sworn-in as a judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit.

But it's Castro that's the dictator. This could never happen in the USA so this must be some misunderstanding. We have freedoms and democracy.

Anyone who thinks that the government does not control the internet in the US is a fool. Corporate Amerika owns the media, the communication companies and the ISP's and Corporate Amerika IS the US government

[mobuto]

28. Important distinctions

1. Pennsylvania is not the United States of America. It is one state. But in this case, the courts have yet to rule on the legality of the legislation and it seems likely that they will demand a few changes.

2. What's at issue here is the free dissemination of political speech. Child porn does have a speech component but it also has significant non-speech implications in that it cannot be produced and disseminated without harming children. And I'd probably join you in criticizing some of the details of Pensylvania's law, you'd be hard-pressed to argue that government doesn't have a clear public policy interest in protecting minors from sexual exploitation.

3. Castro is dictator. The legislation you criticize was nevertheless passed by a legislature duly elected by the people according to internationally-accepted standards. And the legislation it passes is subject to an extensive process of judicial review to ensure that it complies with domestic and international law. Cuban laws are arbitrarily enacted by a dictatorial regime and thus are subject to no effective oversight.

4. Freedom of political speech is by far the most important human right. American and international law recognizes that not all forms of speech are created equal. You can say that someone has a right to express themselves through the dissemination of child pornography, if you wish. But whatever that right may be, if it exists, it is far inferior to our collective right to access diverse political views.

[Sterling]

30. Yes Castro is a dictator.

But you really seem to be an optimist as to what is happening within our own system. I wish your view point was more valid, really I do.

[Say_What]

37. Meanwhile, Petty Dictator Dubya Bush just sign Patriot Act II into law

<clips>

While the so-called Patriot Act II -- a wish list of sweeping powers dreamed up last year by U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to augment 2001's USA PATRIOT Act -- disappeared shortly after a draft copy was made public early last year, it did not die. In fact, on Saturday, Dec. 13 -- as news of Saddam Hussein's capture drove the news cycle -- President George W. Bush signed into law a bill that will allow the federal government broad access to individuals' financial records without a court order. This allows the government to sidestep decades-old financial privacy laws, all in the name of preventing terrorism.

House Bill 2417, the Intelligence Authorization Act for fiscal year 2004, debuted in Congress last June, and was pushed back and forth between the House and Senate for nearly five months before finally making its way to Bush's desk on Dec. 2. The lengthy perennial bill authorizes appropriations for all intelligence-related activities and, on the whole, is fairly standard. However, the final bill was amended by the Senate to include a section that redefines and broadens the phrase "financial institution" -- an obscure yet sweeping change that, at least until challenged in court, will allow the federal government the ability to snoop into nearly every financial aspect of individuals' lives.

Previously, federal law enforcement officials could gain access to individuals' financial records from a bank only if those individuals were suspected of crimes and only after gaining the approval of a federal judge. But the new IAA not only allows the feds to snoop through financial records without a warrant and without demonstrating the person is actually a suspect in a crime, but also broadens the arena for snooping. The legal definition of "financial institution" previously referred only to banks. But now, the feds can examine financial records held by stockbrokers, car dealerships, casinos, credit card companies, insurance agents, jewelers, airlines, pawnbrokers, the U.S. Postal Service, and any other business "whose cash transactions have a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax, or regulatory matters." Federal law enforcers need only draft a "National Security Letter" requesting the records in order to get them.

This change ultimately passed the U.S. House, but not before a handful of legislators -- including Texas Rep. Ron Paul, R-Surfside -- voiced stern opposition. "These expanded internal police powers will enable the FBI to demand transaction records from businesses ... without the approval or knowledge of a judge or grand jury," Paul said during a speech from the House floor on Nov. 20. "This was written into the bill at the 11th hour over the objections of members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which would normally have jurisdiction over the FBI. The Judiciary Committee was frozen out of the process. It appears we are witnessing a stealth enactment of the enormously unpopular 'Patriot II' legislation that was first leaked several months ago. Perhaps the national outcry when a draft of the Patriot II act was leaked has led its supporters to enact it one piece at a time in secret. Whatever the case, this is outrageous and unacceptable."

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2004-01-09/pols_naked7.html

[Mika]

34. You are not informed

"Cuban laws are arbitrarily enacted by a dictatorial regime and thus are subject to no effective oversight."



Except the living and breathing activist Cuban people, whom you seem to forget in the equation.

The Cuban people wouldn't take that shit (being dictated to without effective oversight) for long.


How accountable are elected delegates?
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ006.html

What does the National Assembly actually do?
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ010.html



From the lead article,

E-net is the largest of a handful of Internet providers in Cuba ..

-

E-net customers who do not have the dollar phone service can keep accessing the Internet with the ordinary phone service with special cards sold at Etecsa offices, the letter says.

As long as one can afford it, one can have home access to the internet in Cuba.. just like the USA. Otherwise, in Cuba, one has to go to the library for free internet.

[NashVegas]

45. Is The CBS Report Wrong?

"Most Cubans do not have authorized access to the World Wide Web"

Is it a falsehood that Cubans must be authorized to access the web?

[Mika]

47. Nothing more than a library card or an ISP account

I've been to Cuba many times and know several people who have PC's at home, as well as the fact that all Cubans have free internet access at their local library (and other places, like election offices, some medical clinics, etc.). None needed any special authorization other than a library card or an ISP and phone account.

[NashVegas]

52. So Cubans Have Unlimited WWW Access?

Everyone can legally surf to any site they want to and take part in discussions on web boards, usenet, IRC, etc?

[Mika]

53. Depends on..

.. whether or not they've installed the latest AOL 9.0 disk . :evilgrin:


I was able to surf, ever so slowly, to anywhere I wanted to go. I didn't try any porn.. dialup is too slow. :o

[NashVegas]

54. Depends Doesn't Count

Either unrestricted, unfiltered access is legally available to all and any (not just the medical and gov. sectors and certainly not black market) or it's not.

PS - AOL doesn't include an IRC client.

[Osolomia]

58. You've got internet access so USE IT!!!!!

Do a Google search on Cuba and the internet and computers, you might learn to look before you leap!

Btw, the second sentence of this thread’s article states:

The move could affect hundreds, perhaps thousands of Cubans who access the Internet without authorization from their homes, using computers and Internet accounts that have been borrowed or purchased on the black market for as much as $50 for 80 hours a month.

If the embargo is lifted what happens to the Miami mafia's black market?

[NashVegas]

70. I Must Be Using a Different Internet From Yours

Because the results the Google I'm using turns up all say access is severely restricted unless you are in the medical or government sector.

If the embargo is lifted what happens to the Miami mafia's black market?

That is completely irrelevant to this particular topic.

Castro wants to protect his form of government and supposedly his society from rampant consumerism, and you know what? AFAIC, that's his perogative as long as there's no popular movement (within Cuba) to overthrow it. My hat's off to the guy.

But let's stop it with the pretense that the World Wide internet is open to all on that island, because the obsfuscation going on in this thread isn't winning y'all any brownie points.

[Osolomia]

72. "a different internet"? LOL!

Here's just page 1 of a simple Google search on Cuba internet access ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&edition=us&q=Cuba+internet+access&btnG=Google+Search
)turns up:


Cuba Internet Access Provider Lists
Pointers to resources for finding Internet access in Cuba. Part of
the ... and Canadian provinces. Cuba Internet Access Provider Lists. ...
herbison.com/iap_meta_list/iap_meta_list_cu.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

TT - Cuba - Internet Access in Cuba
seattlecuba PST (Gumly Gumly -17), Internet Access
in Cuba - (2 replies). so, here's my brief summary after MUCH ...
cubafaq.tripod.com/internetaccess.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

TT - Cuba - INTERNET Acess in Cuba
... of the Devil," and Mr. Big Cheese himself alled the Internet a "capitalist conspiracy."
The Internet is considered so dangerous in Cuba that access is kept ...
cubafaq.tripod.com/internet.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from cubafaq.tripod.com >

Internet Service Providers - Cuba - Internet service provider ...
... Internet service provider, internet access, isp. Internet Service
Providers Cuba Internet service provider, internet access, isp. ...
www.directory-search.org/dir/9/125.php - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

Cuba Junky - Cuba Internet and Phone -
Cuba Internet Access and Phone... Phonecalls. Making an international
phonecall from Cuba is expensive, mobile phone charge you about ...
www.cuba-junky.com/cuba/etecsa.htm - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

False charges allege Cuba bars internet access
... The Cuban news daily Granma Wednesday dedicated almost an entire page to a discussion
of criticisms against Cuba for supposedly denying Internet access to its ...
www.cubasolidarity.com/internet.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

cuba tourism travel la habana island of cuba internet services
... they are private foreign owned firms who have a special license to operate in Cuba. ... In
Varadero, there are not only internet cafes and access through the ...
www.worldheadquarters.com/cuba/internet/ - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

Internet access
... TuIsla TM is a service offered by Cuba combining Internet access through a national
points of presence (POP) network and a web portal, www.islagrande.cu. ...
users.pandora.be/casaparticular/internet_access.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Cuba Plans For More Internet Access, IRED
... Sponsor. March 26, 2001 © Copyright 2001, IRED.com, Inc. Cuba Plans
For More Internet Access. Cuban officials have promised more ...
www.ired.com/news/2001/0103/accesscuba.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

CNN.com - Technology - Cuba's Internet elite emerges - April 11 ...
... a leading university computer-studies program -- gained full Internet access. ... people
gain limited Net access with permission ... Cuba has also slowly, if grudgingly ...
www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/04/11/cuba.online.idg/ - 59k - Cached - Similar pages

A little research can go a long way to dispelling myths and Cold War fantasies.

That so many Duers swallow the lies and bullshit no questions asked and spew the Bush Doctrine to this day ought to be ringing a few alarm bells by now imho.

[joshcryer]

88. Very interesting hit from that:

http://www.cubasolidarity.com/internet.htm

[Judi Lynn]

100. Thanks for prompting us to read Osolomia's information

Absolutely fascinating.

I noted that Charles Shapiro, (temporarily the U.S. ambassador in Venezuela,involved in the coup attempt up to his gnarly nose, who's going to be withdrawn in March) butted in and tried to steer the readers of the Christian Science Monitor article toward deeper disinformation, and was handily taken to task for his efforts! Wooo HOOOOO! :bounce:

From the rebuttal of his rebuttal:

(snip)Shapiro blasts Cuba for only having 2% of its population with in-home phones. This argument is phony, perverse and wrong. Firstly, the figure is far greater than 2%. Cuba shares the same problems of poverty and low technology with other Latin-American countries. The mistake is to compare Cuba with the first world, economically. Secondly, many Cubans live in shared houses where several families might share one phone. I often visit friends and the visit is interrupted by a neighbour because my friend is summoned to the phone. This is also Cuban culture (and Latin-American culture) where community still exists, thank God! and people live more collectively than we do in the North in our individual igloos. The mistake is to compare Cuba with the first world, culturally.

Shapiro's argument is perverse because the U.S. has moved heaven and earth to prevent Cuba updating its telephone system. An Italian company made a contract with Cuba and a Mexican company to renew Cuba's phone system. Under U.S. pressure the Italians had to pull out and pay undisclosed compensation to ITT as ITT claims the 1960 Cuban nationalisation of its assets was illegal, and under the 1996 Helms-Burton Act, the Italians could have been sued in U.S. courts for 'trafficking in stolen property'. Mexico has passed a law which specifically prevents its nationals from abiding by the illegal Helms-Burton Act, and so, went ahead alone. Now all over Havana there are public street phones and the new cables are being rapidly laid in suburban areas so that every block has a phone. What other Latin-American country is so democratic? 98% of Cubans have electricity. Where else in the third world do you have this?
(snip/...)

Thanks to you, joshcryer, and thanks to Osolomia!

I need to direct attention to the sentence which says Mexico has passed a law preventing its nationals from abiding by the illegal Helms-Burton Act. Canada ALSO has a similar law.

[NashVegas]

95. Apparently So

From the links you post:
www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/04/11/cuba.online.idg/ -

Given the restrictions to Cuban Internet access, some might challenge Fernandez's trailblazer record. Only select citizens -- 33,000 of the country's 11 million people -- have permission to access the Net. Before approval, the government must deem a person trustworthy, and his work, such as scientific research, must benefit from access to the Net.

http://www.islagrande.cu/

Woo-hoo! Finally an actual domain. An ISP.

http://www.worldheadquarters.com/cuba/internet/

Internet service in Cuba is restricted and all of those offering services are either state owned, or they are private foreign owned firms who have a special license to operate in Cuba. For those who have authorization to obtain internet service the cost is US $260.00 per month, by means of a regular telephone modem.


http://www.cubasolidarity.com/internet.htm

Sergio Pérez also said that it was absolutely false that the Cuban government controls access to websites it deems should be censored. He said that institutions and businesses obviously have the option to limit their workers and students to certain sites but those limitations are practiced the world over. He asked where on the planet is it permitted for a doctor using technology provided at work to access a pornographic site? Or even to spend time in an innocuous chat room when he or she has patients to attend to?

www.directory-search.org/dir/9/125.php - 6k

Ooh, gosh. Another ISP. Proves nothing other than the fact Cuba has physical access.

http://cubafaq.tripod.com/

Everyone there who talks about using Cuban access is a tourist.


Its equally fascinating to note that none of the "yes, anyone in Cuba can hop on" claimants offer citation of Cuban law to back up their case, while those outlets claiming Cuba restricts access point to plenty.

[joshcryer]

98. "Everyone there who talks about using Cuban access is a tourist."

Um, did you actually read that site? I read several posts, many of them from people claiming to have visted or spent time in Cuba, and they are in fact similar to what those here have said.

[NashVegas]

104. Wow

Apparently I'm not only on a different version of the internet from the defenders, but I use a different dictionary as well.

[joshcryer]

105. Where exactly is the conflict?

I don't see what you're bitching about.

[Osolomia]

107. So Americans' internet access is restricted eh?

If you can't access sites like this eyewitness account and many others like it from the USA then you don't have a leg to stand on:

snip/...

Major thrust in public computing: Three Palacios de Computación plus 71 smaller sites nationwide. I visited the Havana palacio: ~60 computers in classrooms and open spaces, free public access, ongoing classes. In addition we found a tourist cybercafe, an artists and writers cybercafe, and computers in business centers in top hotels.


Three young people at the Havana Palacio Central de Computación,
with the server/network administrator for the facility and for Tinored (the youth network that is part of Cuba's internet), in blue jacket. The young men were working on web design and teaching themselves software.

http://www.communitytechnology.org/cuba/ACTinitialreport.html

[Judi Lynn]

109. Beautiful. n/t

[Osolomia]

110. More photos of public computer access centers all over Cuba

and these are from a few years ago, there's been much development since:






Few people outside of Cuba are aware of the fabulous Joven Club de Computación y Electrónica (JCCE). The Joven Club is Cuba's committment to providing equitable community-level access to computer training, regardless of how remote the community is from the urban centres. As of the end of December, 1999, Cuba had 174 Joven Clubs across 169 municipalities, an incredible penetration rate unmatched by other community networking initiatives anywhere in the world.

http://www.nscuba.org/Joven.html

[Judi Lynn]

111. Great photos, just great! I loved seeing people of all ages learning.

I remember reading that they were starting to set up solar power facilities for their school buildings way up in the mountain communities, several years ago.



They'd do a lot better if our rightwing psychopaths eased off that embargo. No other country in the Hemisphere has endured that, and the others have worse infant mortality and longevity and overall health records, not to mention educational acheivements.

[Mika]

114. Where's Billy B? He's a member of NSCUBA

Another DU poster told me that he has been to Cuba with NSCUBA to help install computers and internet nodes there. I seem to remember him saying that because of the antiquated phone system in Cuba, some of their internet access is delivered via intranet (or something like that), especially to the more isolated areas. That was several years ago, I don't know what's up with that now. Maybe he's around?

[NashVegas]

113. Oddly Enough

the site you posted those from has the following info

But much web development has already begun. Sites are delivered via intranet, along with online databases.

Which in no way contradicts reports of restricted access when you stop talking about non-Cubans visiting that country, and non-medical and government elites.

Don't you get tired of making such disingenuous arguments?

[Osolomia]

115. If you ignore what "non-Cubans visiting that country" say

then naturally there's no contradiction with the lies and bullshit being spewed by the Bushistas and Cuban-American "exiles" and their apologists on DU.

Don't you get tired of making such disingenuous arguments?

[Mika]

116. "exiles" know best

Just look at {ex Iraq exile} Chalabi's record.

[Osolomia]

101. Do you always swallow US propaganda hook, line and sinker

no questions asked?

I first happened to freely visit Cuba on vacation in February 1993. I saw the election banners and polling stations and candidates posters with their biographies and platform and sat around with the local Cubans reading newspapers in front of the polling station. A week later Time magazine had a cover story article on Cuba in which it said there were no elections on the island among other obvious blatant lies and bullshit.

So one of the first searches I did when I dumped cable for an internet connection in January 1996 and have been doing so ever since was on what Americans who had actually visited Cuba thought about the country, in other words I sought out non-US government non-US "free press" reports. In fact at the time US journalists were NOT free to go to Cuba! But there were plenty of reports from academics and musicians and sports people (Hank Arron and Huhammed Ali e.g.) and the few other Americans who were able to get a license to go.

To a person, after seeing Cuba for themselves they stood opposed to the trade and travel embargo and the Helms-Burton Act that the USA passed on the basis of a pack of lies and bullshit in February 1996.

Cubaweb.cu was set up shortly after that via a Canadian ISP but from what I heard and read at the time it was NOT accessible from the USA!

In the several years since hundreds of .cu domains have been posted, apparently unseen by travel banned Americans. In fact there's even one where you can watch Cuban tv!

Many Americans don't even realize how stupid there perception of Cuba is to those who are free to see and judge the country for themselves, and who actually go in to any one of the computer clubs and other internet access points available in libraries and post offices around the country.

A little realistic context with current US policy would also to help to put this issue into an honest perspective but that's rather hard to do on a forum where so much right wing propaganda abounds.

[Judi Lynn]

103. The right-wingers who have been controlling votes on the travel ban

(until the last time, when they lost control of the votes, and had to sabotage the Cuba Travel Ban removal amendment in the Transportation bill in committee) are also responsible for the relentless waves of disinformation, as in Otto Reich's Office of Public Diplomacy (planting complete gibberish in papers and magazines all over the world, utter lies and balderdash).

They are starkly aware that when this travel ban comes down, and it could happen this year, as we've read even many Cuban "exiles" in Miami already believe this, and when ordinary Americans finally gain access, there WILL be a backlash. People are going to see in person what the true picture is there, and start putting the pieces together.

You've been there multiple times. You've also read the pathetic rubbish our media feed us. You know we've been played. The people responsible must be in a panic, knowing that very soon Americans are going to know just how badly we've beeen misinformed, and we're going to want to know who's responsible for this.

[Osolomia]

106. Evidently the right-wingers are trying to spew disinformation on DU

as their reaction to this news article goes to show. Expect to see a lot more of it as Bush does whatever he can get away to win November's election.

Surely by now DUers ought to have learned what foreign policy based on lies and bullshit and ignorance can lead to.

[Judi Lynn]

108. Can't figure out why the rightwingnuts don't bow to the inevitable

and try to adjust to the fact the travel ban WILL go, and the embargo will go, too.

They know we'll know they've been lying. What can prevent this happening? A second assault on Cuba, a retread of the Bay of Pigs, designed to succeed where Bush's father, who was with the CIA during the first one, failed.

If they can gain control of Cuba, then they can control our perception even better. If they do a bang-up job of it, we'll never know what the hell has happened, and live on in befuddlement, just like we did when we all grabbed our papers or keyboards and marvelled at the amazing adventures of Jessica Lynch.

I'm really sick of these guys. I hope the world will stir itself and shake them off.

Don't forget, there's a massive number of Americans in businesses from many sectors who have been to Cuba to initiate trade, or who are in the process of establishing links, or who plan to do it.

Our business people in 38 states just keep marching forward. As you've seen, there's a steady stream coming and going to Cuba, not only of our food producing business people, and pharmaceutical companies, but also of the Democratic and Republican Congressfolk from ALL over the U.S..

Truly bipartisan, no matter what the right-wing extremists say. (Makes you wonder just how many of these guys are actually posting from S. Florida.)

[rman]

83. using AOL software in US or Cuba is equally restricting

so it does depend.

[Say_What]

49. CBS??? Propaganda machine owned by Westinghouse?? ROFLMAO

We are here to serve advertisers. That is our raison d'etre.
-- the C.E.O. of Westinghouse(CBS), Advertising Age, February 3, 97

Keerist, anybody naive enough to believe the bullsh*t mass media feeds them deserves whatever they get.

[mobuto]

68. Oh, because the Cuban people are so far superior

The Cuban people wouldn't take that shit (being dictated to without effective oversight) for long.

to the Chinese people, the Russian people, the German people, etc? No matter who you are, people living in authoritarian dictatorships generally do what they're told.

From your second link:

Typically, several representatives are elected to the National Assembly from any given electoral district. Suppose, for example, that in a given district, five representatives are to be elected to the National Assembly. Therefore, in that district, there will be five candidates on the ballot – one for each seat. Voters may select none, one, some or all of the candidates. When a voter selects all of them, this is called a united vote.

So let me get this right. Typicially there is ONE candidate for each seat in the National Assembly? Really? What were you saying about Cuba being a democracy? Before you go on, maybe you should read Human Rights Watch's annual reports going back to its inception. I assure you, they address in unbiased and critical detail the nature of this "democracy."

I am again forced to the inescapable conclusion that either you are being wilfully ignorant or else, for whatever reason, you are being dishonest.

[Mika]

90. The united vote described is the ratification election

Please reread the paragraph you posted,

It says,
"Suppose, for example, that in a given district, five representatives are to be elected to the National Assembly..."

They are elected to their seats from among the candidates selected at open nominating sessions.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates. Instead the candidates are nominated by grass roots assemblies and by electoral commissions comprising representatives of all the mass organisations.

The United Vote-

Then comes the ratification elections, to ensure and confirm that 50%+1 of the voters in that district directly ratify none, one, some or all of the elected candidates. All elected candidates being ratified is called a united vote (meaning that 100% of the elected candidates are ratified - confirmed by a majority the voters). Cuba has a check and balance system, in that the elected candidates of any seat must be approved by 50% +1 of the total electorate in that district to hold their seat. If they are not approved by 50% +1, then there is a special election within 6 weeks to nominate candidates and hold another election, and then after the election that new candidate must be ratified by 50% +1 af all the voters in that district.


I've been to Cuba during elections, and I've seen the elections for the seats and then the ratification to confirm the elected candidate for their seat on the Assembly. I've also attended accountability sessions (held every 6 months), where the elected representatives must account for their actions in office, or be rejected by recall and replaced in a special election to be held within 6 weeks and then ratified.



If you are really interested in learning about Cuba's democratic system, and since Americans need special authorization from US jackboots to go there, you might try picking up this book,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books


They have a few in stock now

[AromaticSocks]

66. This just can't be true...Cuba is the ideal socialist model!

Say it isn't so. How can a perfect socialist country deny its people access to the real world?

[Osolomia]

74. But it's okay for the perfect capitalist country to deny its people

the freedom to travel and see and judge the real world for themselves!!!

And that's the best the Democratic Underground and their presidential choices can do in 2004?

What a shame!

[AromaticSocks]

77. If cuba is the real world then I'll take the alternative way

I have no love or desire for a tin-pot dictator like castro. castro can kiss my ass and anyone like him can too.

[Osolomia]

78. Spoken like a true Democrat eh!

Any you wonder why they keep losing?

[joshcryer]

89. C'mon.

It's not illegal for an American to spend euros in Cuba. Just American money. As far as I know, though, Cubans can't use the euro in their dollar stores. Only tourists. So there's an inclination for dollars even though it's not necessary. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mika]

91. Actually Cuba is switching to Euros

And soon the "dollar stores" will only accept euros.

[joshcryer]

97. Good!

And I hope that the exchange rate between Euros and dollars is maintained, that way Euros will be the preferred money in Cuba (that is, if you come to Cuba with a dollar, it'd only be worth whatever 85 cents it is in Euros).

This would devalue the Miami influence by whatever the exchange rate is.

[Osolomia]

92. Dream on! Money is money, it doesn't matter what currency it's in

US law forbids Americans from spending money in Cuba, period.

Where on earth do you get the cockamamie idea that Cubans can't use euros in stores that accept them?

[joshcryer]

96. I read it on a procuba site.

I can get a link for you. I don't think it's such a cockamamie idea. Mika seems to know what I'm talking about.

[joshcryer]

99. Oh yeah, and that's right. Visiting Cuba is "trading with the enemy."

Forgot about that.

Reminds me of the fucking band aid thing, where the elderly couple gave a Cuban a band aid and it was considered helping the enemy.

[Judi Lynn]

86. For anyone's who's interested

Blue Chill took this article over to General Discussion for another run at it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1001796

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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