US is‘worst’ imperialist: archbishop

[sabra]

Source: UK SundayTimes

THE Archbishop of Canterbury has said that the United States wields its power in a way that is worse than Britain during its imperial heyday.

Rowan Williams claimed that America’s attempt to intervene overseas by “clearing the decks” with a “quick burst of violent action” had led to “the worst of all worlds”.

In a wide-ranging interview with a British Muslim magazine, the Anglican leader linked criticism of the United States to one of his most pessimistic declarations about the state of western civilisation.

He said the crisis was caused not just by America’s actions but also by its misguided sense of its own mission. He poured scorn on the “chosen nation myth of America, meaning that what happens in America is very much at the heart of God’s purpose for humanity”.

Williams went beyond his previous critique of the conduct of the war on terror, saying the United States had lost the moral high ground since September 11. He urged it to launch a “generous and intelligent programme of aid directed to the societies that have been ravaged; a check on the economic exploitation of defeated territories; a demilitarisation of their presence”.

Read more: http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2937068.ece

[JerseygirlCT]

1. Ah, would that the ABC

would see so clearly the faults in our own church -- and particularly those that have been exacerbated by his own action or lack thereof!

OTOH, I guess it might take a Brit to see and understand the dynamic of a nation over-reaching its power in the world.

[davidinalameda]

5. sorry but my cat has more right to speak out on moral issues

than ABC

as long as he supports the conservatives in the Anglican Church who want to turn back the clock on rights for women, gays, etc

ALSO, the Nigerian archbishop,whom Williams refuses to disagree with, supports the current government there

not the most democratic

[dantyrant]

6. haha well said...

It's astonishing that the ABC is calling the Americans 'bad imperialists', as if to suggest that there's ever been a benevolent imperial power.

[JVS]

8. Well consider where his bread is buttered. The only reason anyone gives a shit about Canterbury...

is that the ABC is the head of what was the official religion of British Empire. If it were not for that Empire the worldwide Anglican Communion would not even be around. Similarly without British colonization Akinola wouldn't be Anglican.

[regnaD kciN]

13. I don't think you can say he's "supporting the conservatives"...

...seeing as he refused to cut off ties with the U.S. church, as the conservatives were demanding, and thus almost guaranteeing that they themselves will walk.

[davidinalameda]

31. yeah I can

sorry but he has moved to the right since he became ABC

if you take a look at some of his writings and quotes before he became ABC and even shortly into his term, he was pretty much a progressive on moral issues

he and others like him have put the whole unity issue first and foremost

[JerseygirlCT]

30. That's pretty much what I was saying

Sorry if I was unclear.

Before he became ABC, the man seemed to be quite openminded. Since, he seems to be valuing some sense of "unity" above justice. And that's forcing him into bending over for the nasty right-wing, authoritarians who are really NOT in any way Anglican. The church of via media is a foreign and distasteful idea to the likes of Venables and Akinola.

[Beartracks]

32. And that's important here because...?

> he supports the conservatives in the Anglican Church who want to turn back the clock on rights for women, gays, etc

His misguidedness on that issue does not invalidate his opinion on other issues.

[davidinalameda]

35. you ever stop and think that he's trying to make himself look good

for dropping the ball on other issues?

while he supports homophobia and sexism, he's not in any position to criticize anyone else

[Beartracks]

44. Yes, but his points are valid even though they came from him. /nm

[cgrindley]

34. Awesome apology for imperialism you got going there

you realize that it's entirely possible that he is:

a) right about the US

b) a douche bag regarding your progressive political stance on certain issues

c) morally, religiously and ethically justified by the concerns of systematic theology even if it offends you personally


If you don't mind people to adhere to silly and quite fraudulent Judeo-Christian religious beliefs, then you've sort of got to expect that they're going to talk crack every now and then about the issues you hold close to your heart, because... the Bible really isn't all that progressive of a document, especially not the Old Testament.

[JerseygirlCT]

36. Well, I disagree on all almost all counts

There's no apology for imperialism in the post.

He's quite likely right about the US -- which is what I said.

He's being more of a coward on what you term "certain issues". He's put what's he's deemed the higher good, that is, unity, above justice. He's trying desperately to get everybody to stay at the party, but what he seems not to get is that the same people making the stink have never had any intention of staying at the party unless they get to call all the shots. Not going to happen.

His position isn't at all supported by his theology. In fact, as others have pointed out, before becoming ABC he was quite an articulate supporter of equal rights. It's his fear of being the one who oversaw the dissolution of the Anglican Communion (not going to happen, though a handful of disaffected egomaniacs will likely split) that drives him to keep asking GLBT church members to be patient.

And I'll just ignore your last remarks entirely. Pointless to comment, really.

[IndianaGreen]

2. America is not the only nation suffering from the chosen nation myth

but we are the ones with an unfortunate combination of nationalism, militarism, and a post 9-11 blood lust.

[mwb970]

19. And nukes. /nt

[MasonJar]

3. The Archbishop finally makes a lot of sense. Congratulations on

nailing the Bush cabal with a very wise and eloquent critique.

[balantz]

4. Hell, there ain't no freekin' bully like a 'Merikan!

'Scuse me while I spit my t'bacy juice on yer head.

[cigsandcoffee]

7. Sorry, Archbishop...

..but "Britain during its imperial heyday" makes any era of America look like Mother Teresa by comparison. We're talking about a nation that addicted an entire country to opium for the sake of their tea trade, for God's sake - and that just scratches the surface.

[JVS]

9. shhhhhh. That empire was essential in making Canterbury a bishopric people give a damn about

The Patriarch of Moscow must be pissed that he never had such an effective political apparatus spread his influence around!

[PittPoliSci]

12. thank you!

when i read the headline that was the very first thing i thought of.

[Doc Martin]

29. Plus 800 years terrorizing the Irish people

[demobrit]

41. 800 years of terrorising the Irish People?

You need to remember that the North of Ireland is still part of the UK and its economy is buzzing.
The majority of those people in Northern Ireland wish to stay in the UK.
Most countries have events in History that they are not proud of.
I recall that the American Indian was almost culled to extinction and their land stolen.
So let us try to come to terms with the past and move on.

[L. Coyote]

10. Good catch. Thanks. K&R

[upi402]

11. Same AB of C that said anti-gays are misreading the Bible?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=449325&in_page_id=1811&ito=1490

Hey, I think this guy wired my house!

[xchrom]

14. once again rowan you come through. -- you're on the right

track on so many issues -- but wrong when it comes to opposing the conservatives.

why is it -- you can stand up to the status quo here -- but some backwards, superstitious bishops in america and africa scare the hell out of you?

anyway -- recommend.

[moggie]

15. Why did he frame it in this way?

What matters is not whether what the US does now is better or worse than what Britain has done in the past: what matters is whether it's right or wrong. By describing US foreign policy in terms of a sort of league table of imperialist abuse, he's ensured that subsequent discussion of his comments will tend to focus on arguments about things done by the British Empire generations ago, instead of what matters now. That's poor framing.

[demoleft]

16. i'd tell the archbishop that there are other imperial powers...

...really dangerous for our present time.
they got Banks and political organizations, they're backed by lobbies and make political pressure.

they go under the name of established religions. lots of money. the smell of which - you know...leads also to middle east...

curiously, every time the political system gets weaker, the religious and the aristocratics scream harsh criticism, introducing themselves as pater patriae.

imagine, the Savoia family in italy requested officially to be paid for the material and moral damages caused by the republic after their ban from italy. they try to ride the political crisis in italy. they don't know it could be the republic to ask for damages caused by them in 1943, when they gave up and quit leaving italians to the massacres of the nazis and our soldiers without a word.

and they don't know they risk to be kicked away from our boundaries once again if they don't shut their mouth and begin working like everybody else.
a suggestion i'd give the anglican archbishop too. and the pope.

[1932]

24. I thought you were going to say "multi-national corporations."

What religion do you think is engage in imperialism?

[DissedByBush]

33. Christianity and Islam?

Christianity wants to save the world with its "better way" and Islam (as it is practiced by millions) is bent on taking over the world, by force if necessary.

[1932]

37. I think those religions are being exploited by governments for political ends.

I don't think governments are weak and being supplanted by religion.

[PDittie]

17. Inappropriate messenger aside ...

"Imperialist" is an epithet we should all be using more often, not only in relation to Bush/Cheney/Addington et. al. but also Rudy. That fucker intends to make Bush look like a piker.

[Demeter]

18. It's The Ineptitude and The Complete Amorality That Irk Me

Bush has redefined LOSER, EVIL, and so many other words that describe TOTAL FAILURE so that one grasps for something sufficiently descriptive and all-encompassing.

By God, If you're going to build an empire,you have to do it right!

[boricua79]

20. he may have a glass house

but the man is RIGHT on the money.

[Joanne98]

21. "clearing the decks" He's read the Shock Doctrine! lol

[momster]

22. BE Oppressed India 300 yrs!

Amazing how the ABC proves that ol' Biblical thingie about the mote in your neighbor's eye. I don't see him mea culpa-ing for Queen Victoria's 'little wars' or the British Empire's own oppression of damn near everybody -- the world map didn't turn pink by itself, did it? Just the Indian Mutiny and the brutality with which is was put down would have been evidence enough (mind, the Indians were fairly brutal as well...the Black Hole of Calcutta is no myth. But two wrongs...etc.)

Mind you, I wish our own Morons in Chief had at least *read* a little British History -- say about the 1842 Afghan War? Maybe we wouldn't have gone in quite so cavalierly if we'd known how the Afghans had kicked the British Army's butt way back then. The BA was the most powerful and technologically advanced military force in the world and they were devastated by the Afghans who just bloody wouldn't give up.

[rAVES]

27. Are you suggesting the ABC is responcible for Britains behavior during their murderous history?

[momster]

43. No

but plenty of those who held that position in the past made no demur about the actions mentioned in my post...nor has the present ABC repudiated his own country's history (to my knowledge). Easy to point the finger, doncha know?

[0007]

23. Even counties in Europe are catching on to our behavior.....

[derby378]

25. Correction to the Archbishop: WE have not lost the moral ground...

...but our government has. The American people are sick and sad by what Herr Decider has done.

[Baby Snooks]

26. Our nation's arrogance..

"He poured scorn on the “chosen nation myth of America, meaning that what happens in America is very much at the heart of God’s purpose for humanity”."

He points out the main problem with our "colonization" of Iraq and Afghanistan, only the latest such colonization actually, which is our religious belief in a "divinely-ordained" destiny as opposed to merry Old England's which was based in the royal belief that all should belong to the throne. Including any and all countries that could be conquered. By hook or by crook and occasionally by offering "salvation to the savages." When all else fails, religion of course can be used to justify, and excuse, a multitude of sins. We forget that our country was settled by the English for the same purpose. To colonize for a king.

Of course we are now merely carrying on the tradition of our forefathers. Colonizing for a king.

We also forget that religion is a political institution. The Anglican Church in particular. The king felt marriage vows were a hindrance when the queen began to bore him, so he waved his hand and threw the pope out and installed the archbishop. To do his bidding.

We have the 1st Amendment for many reasons. To have the right to protest the king. And to be able to ignore the archbishop.

[Doc Martin]

28. British had Ireland; US has Iraq

The parallels are stunning.

Of course, the English oppressed many more than the Irish. BTW, who created the nation of Iraq?

[demobrit]

42. You dont happen to have Irish ancestry do you?

:hi: I do to,but proud to be English.

[Genevieve]

38. World Anglican leader launches attack on U.S.

Source: Reuters

LONDON (Reuters) - Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, leader of the world's Anglicans, has launched an attack on the United States, saying it has lost the high moral ground since the September 11 attacks in 2001.

Drawing comparisons between British imperialism and the 21st Century United States, Williams said: "It is one thing to take over a territory and then pour energy and resources into administering and normalizing it.

"Rigthly or wrongly, that is what the British Empire did -- in India for example."

"It is another thing to go in on the assumption that a quick burst of violent action will somehow clear the decks and that you can move on and other people will put things back together again -- Iraq for example."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071125/us_nm/religion_anglicans_usa_dc

[peacebird]

39. *snap!* my, my, my - the Archbishop soundly b*tchslapped bushie and his minions!

:toast:

Hear! Hear! Bravo - I say, BRAVO, my good man!

[Auntie Bush]

40. The slap that was heard around the world!

But I still don't think bush noticed. That slap is going to have to be firm and lower.