Rural U.S. Takes Worst Hit as Gas Tops $4 Average

[RamboLiberal]

Source: NY Times

Gasoline prices reached a national average of $4 a gallon for the first time over the weekend, adding more strain to motorists across the country.

But the pain is not being felt uniformly. Across broad swaths of the South, Southwest and the upper Great Plains, the combination of low incomes, high gas prices and heavy dependence on pickup trucks and vans is putting an even tighter squeeze on family budgets.

Here in the Mississippi Delta, some farm workers are borrowing money from their bosses so they can fill their tanks and get to work. Some are switching jobs for shorter commutes.

People are giving up meat so they can buy fuel. Gasoline theft is rising. And drivers are running out of gas more often, leaving their cars by the side of the road until they can scrape together gas money.

The disparity between rural America and the rest of the country is a matter of simple home economics. Nationwide, Americans are now spending about 4 percent of their take-home income on gasoline. By contrast, in some counties in the Mississippi Delta, that figure has surpassed 13 percent.



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/business/09gas.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1212985280-1QtbCoBpjr70OMHIBv91lg

---

No excuse any more for the Repub voters in these rural areas! A vote for McCain is a vote against their own self-interest and lifestyle!

[Carnea]

1. Don't forget the fisherman.

As any power boater on these boards will tell you $5 a gallon Diesel goes pretty quick out there I can only imagine how the catch limited fleet is doing. ( I'm in favor of limiting catches BTW. but fish prices really need to double again to cover costs.)

[Devil_Fish]

13. Diesel is well over $5 both on the street and on the water.

Buy wind power. Every one will need it soon. Solor if you have a lot of deck space.

[Maine-ah]

94. ok idea if you are not commercial, and can afford solar power

the commercial fishermen and women up here are hurting. Expect to see a major increase in prices for lobster and fish this summer.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. In rural places they'll drive 200 miles round trip at the drop of a hat just to

get to the shopping center, in a F150 no less.

[ingac70]

3. With Bush/Cheney stickers and all....

Hopefully a few of them get their heads out of their ass by the time they reach the voting booth in Nov.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

7. And Limpballs on the ray-dio. (n/t)

[Maddy McCall]

29. The Mississippi Delta is solidly Democratic, dumbass.

Maybe if you'd read a little about demographics before spouting such idiotic nonsense, you wouldn't look like an ass.

[ingac70]

30. Where did Mississippi specifically come into my post?

I didn't mention Mississippi. I live in rural Tennessee, and I think I know what I am talking about.

You need to get your panties out of that wad over Hillary and calm your hostilities.

[Maddy McCall]

39. The OP mentions it.

You know, the topic we're supposed to be discussing.

[ingac70]

41. Well I didn't...

I was referring to rural people as a rule, and a shitload of Republicons in my area fit that bill.

[RamboLiberal]

42. And what the hell counties are always shown deep red

on those big ass maps the Repukes loved to show to us all the time? Rural! Flyover country! Maybe your area is solidly Democrat but I drive through a lot of rural area in PA (what Carville referred to as Alambama in the middle), Ohio and West Virginia. I talk to these folks at rural gun ranges. They are the ones with the Bush/Cheney and the Christian stickers on their pickups, SUVs, and vans and they have till now voted against their own self-interest cause they believe the crap the RW talkers, the preachers and the NRA spout to them.

Election 2004 map:

NY Times Interactive map of who is getting hit the most. Corresponds fairly well to above red/blue map. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/06/09/business/20080609_GAS_GRAPHIC.html#

[Tunkamerica]

55. except for all the exceptions

ohio is red but is average in how hard it's hit. That's stripe of blue in luisiana and mississippi is among the hardest hit. Nevada's bright red and among the least hit as is most of california. The only blue part of texas is also one of the hardest hit. if you don't pay attention to either map, then yeah you have a great point.

[saigon68]

78. Don't count on it

Those Tramps are still getting Abortions </sarcasm>:-)

[peanut]

10. I live in a rural area, and I don't drive ANYWHERE at the drop of a hat

And i resemble your "casual" assumption of lumping all "rural" residents as F150 drivers who need to go to a mall for a fix (what mall, I might ask -- and many of us in rural cultures are not consumption-hungry, attention deficit shopoholics). most folks are working in low wage economies in rural areas and putting ONE DAY's gas in their tank at a time because that's what they have to spare.
I came to upstate NY for a simpler life and one that I hoped would have a smaller footprint than having every product i used and bought tracked into Manhattan over a bazillion miles for my personal consumption. That means a wood burning stove in an area plentiful in wood resources. It means every time we get in the car to go buy things we can't get in our area of Delaware County, making sure that we are buying wisely and economically and offsetting the shipping costs etc that such products would cost to come to us or OUR BUSINESS, god help us. All of us work hard and smart to figure out as much as we can do in cyberspace instead of traveling ANYWHERE or getting anything we can locally -- produce in season, eggs, meat -- from local producers. Most of my design work goes from my laptop directly to a local printer, or even more directly over email, to a web site or to a public broadcast service.
You smart ass casual observer might have a few things to learn from us dumb ass rural folks as we learn -- by hardship or necessity -- how to re-localize our economies. We may not have lemons in February, but we might know where our (happy, non-industrialized) hens are laying.
take your assumptions about WHO is in rural america and rethink it and diversify it. many urbanites and suburbanites are trying to go to places where sprawl does not exist and work "over the wires" -- or they are trying to revitalize moribund economies with vital, locally-centric ventures.

[truedelphi]

16. As someone who could no longer handle the jive of big cities

I am now a rural folk myself.

Agree with all you say.

The big city person thinks that because they don't use a car, Oh boy they are environmental. But they have FedEx deliver eighteen things a week to their door - I guess that leaves no carbon footprint??

Anyway the scene is very nice. People say hi to one another, and yes there may be more Bush/Cheney stickers on trucks than I'd like (though believe me in the last six months that's been changing,) still there is a sense of community that I hadn't seen since childhood in the late fifties!

At the end of the day, I would rather be here among people who stop to ask the teen aged kid who's car has gone into a ditch if he needs a ride, rather than in some city where everyone is just too stressed to notice the person next to them.

[silverojo]

26. You've got that right, and I agree with all your points

I also agree with the poster you agreed with, LOL!

Seriously, small-town life has been wonderful to us, after being in big city hell for 20 years. People wave to you with all 5 fingers. ;)

And God, is it nice not having to share the road with any Hummers!!!!!

[truedelphi]

43. We are in a tourist area

So we have those on weekends. But the urban neighborhood I moved here from had them every block.

Now I even listen to country music these days!

:hi:

[The_Casual_Observer]

20. Mr Manhattan "living off the land"creative class transplant sets me straight!

I'll bet you last 6 months tops.

[Psephos]

21. My casual observation: you're right up there with Bush when it comes to admitting mistakes

You made some quarter-mile-wide broad brush assumptions about people who live in rural areas, and then when an actual person who lives in the sticks took issue with the garbage you posted, tried to flip it back on him.

Ooookkkaaayyyy.

[humus]

54. The Prejudice Against Country People

I believe it is a fact, proven by their rapidly diminishing numbers and economic power, that the world's small farmers and other "provincial" people have about the same status now as enemy civilians in wartime. They are the objects of small, "humane" consideration, but if they are damaged or destroyed "collaterally," then "we very much regret it," but they were in the way--and, by implication, not quite as human as "we" are. The industrial and corporate powers, abetted and excused by their many dependents in government and the universities, are perpetrating a sort of economic genocide--less bloody than military genocide, to be sure, but just as arrogant, foolish, and ruthless, and perhaps more effective in ridding the world of a kind of human life. The small farmers and the people of small towns are understood as occupying the bottom step of the economic stairway and deservedly falling from it because they are rural, which is to say not metropolitan or cosmopolitan, which is to say socially, intellectually, and culturally inferior to "us."

Am I trying to argue that all small farmers are superior or that they are all good farmers or that they live the "idyllic life"? I certainly am not. And that is my point. The sentimental stereotype is just as damaging as the negative one. The image of the farmer as the salt of the earth, independent son of the soil, and child of nature is a sort of lantern slide projected over the image of the farmer as simpleton, hick, or redneck. Both images serve to obliterate any concept of farming as an ancient, useful, honorable vocation, requiring admirable intelligence and skill, a complex local culture, great patience and endurance, and moral responsibilities of the gravest kind.

I am not trying to attribute any virtues or characteristics to farmers or rural people as a category. I am only saying what black people, Jews, and others have said many times before: These stereotypes don't fit. They don't work. Of course, some small town lawyers have minds that are "closed and cold," but some, too, have minds that are open and warm. And some "provincial" journalists may be comparable to groundhogs, I suppose, though I know of none to whom that simile exactly applies, but some too are brilliant and brave and eminently useful. I am thinking, for example, of Tom and Pat Gish, publishers of The Mountain Eagle in Whitesburg, Kentucky, who for many decades have opposed the coal companies whenever necessary and have unflinchingly suffered the penalties, including arson. Do I think the Gishes would be intimidated by the frivolous wit of ghostwriters at the Gridiron dinner? I do not.

I have been attentive all my life to the doings of small town lawyers and "provincial" journalists, and I could name several of both sorts who have not been admirable, but I could name several also who have been heroes among those who wish to be just. I can say, too, that, having lived both in great metropolitan centers of culture and in a small farming community, I have seen few things dumber and tackier--or more provincial--than this half-scared urban contempt for "provinciality."

The stereotype of the farmer as rustic simpleton or uncouth redneck is, like most stereotypes, easily refuted: All you have to do is compare it with a number of real people. But the stereotype of the small farmer as obsolete human clinging to an obsolete kind of life, though equally false, is harder to deal with because it comes from a more complicated prejudice, entrenched in superstition and a kind of insanity.

The prejudice begins in the idea that work is bad, and that manual work outdoors is the worst work of all. The superstition is that since all work is bad, all "labor-saving" is good. The insanity is to rationalize the industrial pillage of the natural world and to heap scorn upon the land-using cultures on which human society depends for its life.

The industrialization of agriculture has replaced working people with machines and chemicals. The people thus replaced have, supposedly, gone into the "better" work of offices or factories. But in all the enterprises of the industrial economy, as in industrial war, we finally reach the end of the desk jobs, the indoor work, the glamour of forcing nature to submission by push-buttons and levers, and we come to the unsheltered use of the body. Somebody, finally, must lift the garbage can, stop the leaks in the roof, fix the broken machinery, walk in the mud and the snow, build and mend the pasture fences, help the calving cow.

Now, in the United States, the despised work of agriculture is done by the still-surviving and always struggling small farmers, and by many Mexican and Central American migrant laborers who live and work a half step, if that, above slavery. The work of the farmland, in other words, is now accomplished by two kinds of oppression, and most people do not notice, or if they notice they do not care. If they are invited to care, they are likely to excuse themselves by answers long available in the "public consciousness": Farmers are better off when they lose their farms. They are improved by being freed of the "mind-numbing work" of farming. Mexican migrant field hands, like Third World workers in our sweatshops, are being improved by our low regard and low wages. And besides, however objectionable from the standpoint of "nostalgia," the dispossession of farmers and their replacement by machines, chemicals, and oppressed migrants is "inevitable," and it is "too late" for correction.

Such talk, it seems to me, descends pretty directly from the old pro-slavery rhetoric: Slavery was an improvement over "savagery," the slaves were happy in their promotion, slavery was sanctioned by God. The moral difference is not impressive.

But the prejudice against rural people is not merely an offense against justice and common decency. It also obscures or distorts perception of issues and problems of the greatest practical urgency. The unacknowledged question beneath the dismissal of the agrarian small farmers is this: What is the best way to farm--not anywhere or everywhere, but in every one of the Earth's fragile localities? What is the best way to farm this farm? In this ecosystem? For this farmer? For this community? For these consumers? For the next seven generations? In a time of terrorism? To answer those questions, we will have to go beyond our preconceptions about farmers and other "provincial" people. And we will have to give up a significant amount of scientific objectivity, too. That is because the standards required to measure the qualities of farming are not just scientific or economic or social or cultural, but all of those, employed all together.

This line of questioning finally must encounter such issues as preference, taste, and appearance. What kind of farming and what kind of food do you like? How should a good steak or tomato taste? What does a good farm or good crop look like? Is this farm landscape healthful enough? Is it beautiful enough? Are health and beauty, as applied to landscapes, synonymous?

With such questions, we leave objective science and all other specialized disciplines behind, and we come to something like an undepartmented criticism or connoisseurship that is at once communal and personal. Even though we obviously must answer our questions about farming with all the intellectual power we have, we must not fail to answer them also with affection. I mean the complex, never-completed affection for our land and our neighbors that is true patriotism.


http://www.progressive.org/node/1596

[customerserviceguy]

88. Wow

Great post. I lived in rural WA state before I moved to NY, and the folks there got tired of being seen as some sort of pestilence life form mucking up the Great Outdoors that Spandex-clad Seattlites would bike through once a year.

[Maddy McCall]

28. Fucking aye.

Excellent post.

:thumbsup:

[erinlough]

74. Thank you for posting...

The assumptions made by people who don't live in farm country are amazing. I drive a fuel efficient car, only 7 miles from work, don't go anywhere unless I have to and share a ride with a neighbor when we get groceries. I plant a garden for produce, use the manure for fertilizer instead of chemicals, I watch every penny I spend and always have. Oh, I forgot the three hens that give us eggs all year long. Get over yourselves city folk, come see what really goes on in rural america.

[texastoast]

82. Yep

And a lot of deep East Texas is still very Democratic.

You just can label it all one way or another.

However, there are many people in "Bush Country" here in Texas who do not work for the oil bidness for whom I'm just not feeling much pity now.

[Tunkamerica]

23. yeah,

they all suck. cuz of where they live. fuck em all and let em starve. serves em right for being born and raised somewhere different than you.

real casual obviously

[Tunkamerica]

25. totally unrelated maybe

but are you under the screen name casual watcher 9 as well?

[Papagoose]

31. I live in rural Georgia -

I don't drive 200 miles at the drop of a hat. I drive only as far as I need to, when I need to, in the most efficient vehicle I have access to. It's always a good idea to avoid generalizing about people.

One of the trade-offs of living in a clean, safe, uncrowded rural area is that sometimes I have to travel a distance to go shopping, but I have found that I can get most of what I need relatively close to home - this includes shopping at locally owned grocery stores, buying my produce, meat, milk and eggs directly from local farmers and eating at independent restaurants instead of chain restaurants. Unfortunately I have a long commute to work, but I am making changes to cut the expense and carbon footprint of this drive as much as possible.

It's true that SOME rural people seem out of sync with the times - pickup trucks, giant tires, speeding, etc, but I have seen this declining. There's a guy down the street from me with the stereotypical monster truck complete with confederate flag license plate, yellow ribbon magnets and Bush/Cheney stickers. I was pretty shocked over the weekend when he pulled up in his new Honda Civic.

[newfie11]

32. Well actually we own F350 & a 1 ton dodge mega cab.

Why, because we haul stock trailers, farm implements, Hay wagons and we also show 3 Newfoundland dogs. Try putting them in a subcompact. The dodge which does get 23 mpg BTW and the f350 get 21-22.

Yes there are people who actually do live 70 or more miles from the nearest grocery store. A mall?? Forget that.
Come on out to Wyoming, Western Nebraska, eastern Colorado,NW South Dakota, or parts of Montana and see for your self.

[tpsbmam]

62. Ummmmm, generalize much? What the hell are you basing this on?

I live in a rural area in NC. I don't know anyone who does that, nor did I before the astronomical gas prices hit. And when I drive around here, I see pickups, one hummer, SUVs, but mostly smaller cars and MANY hybrids. I even saw a Smart Car the other day (didn't think they were even selling in the US yet).

Edited to add that, despite living in the mountains that cause gas mileage to go down substantially, I manage to keep my typical gas consumption to one tank per month, two at the most. (I'm retired so that makes it easier to conserve.) I drive a small, fuel-efficient car and, like most people I know around here, I plan & consolidate my trips out to run errands, etc. The one exception is going out socially, but even then most of the people I know carpool via picking up friends to drive together when we're getting together.

[MadHound]

65. You obviously have no clue as to the mindset, and habits, of most rural people

You just like making dumbass statements, based in ignorant bigotry, and casually lumping an entire group of people into a single category. What a dumbass thing to do.

I live in a rural area, I've got an organic, heirloom orchard that I'm growing. I do my trips(thirty-forty miles round trip) to one of two urban areas, not at the drop of a hat, but after careful consideration of what I need. Most people out here do that, if for no other reason than time and effort.

Oh, and I do much of my driving on this

It gets 100 mpg, what do you shlup your fat urban ass around on?

My neighbors are doing much of the same, buying new vehicles that get better gas mileage, some are smaller, American made vehicles(Buy American is still strong out here), others are opting for things like Smart Cars, Prius' and other such exotic things.

Many rural people are also investing in alternative energy. I've put up a 350kw windturbine, a couple of neighbors have put up solar panels, many, many of us have woodstoves(complete with catalytic converters)

Oh, and we don't buy much of our food from the grocery store, where it has been shipped a few thousand miles. No, most country folk have ample gardens that they have harvested, year in and year out, and processed and stored that harvest. While you urban folks are worried about dying from those red, rubber things that are labeled as tomatoes on your food shelves, we're still using our yummy home-made spaghetti sauce, and are looking forward to fresh tomatoes in a couple of months. And which consumer's produce is costing more in terms of energy and pollution?

Your characterization of the rural population is not accurate. All you're doing is exposing your ignorance, bigotry, and the ugliness of your own soul. I truly suggest that you come out here to the country, live out here for awhile, get to know the people and what they're doing. Until then, stop making assholish statements based on limited knowledge and unlimited bigotry.

[DUlover2909]

92. I don't understand what the big deal is..

Paris and I just put the card into the thing and gas comes out. I don't know what all those numbers even mean. If people need money just go to the bank where it's all kept or pick money off the money tree in the back yard. duh!

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. This is not helpful. n/t

[tularetom]

4. Ha ha! My dumbass son in law has a McCain sticker on his big giant pickemup

but nobody ever sees it because the fuckin thing is parked in his driveway since he can't afford to pay almost $5 a gallon for the diesel that makes it go.

[Trajan]

5. After some sending some 90 resumes and job applications in SW Missouri ...

I received 3 responses .... the highest wage below offered was 25 cents LESS than Oregon's minimum wage ....

The wages in the Ozarks are tragically low .... I finally left my home in Springfield, MO and my family to find work in another state ... We left completely 6 months later ....

[Wizard777]

6. Okay so what would Obama do to bring those prices down for these people?

Everyone else too. But they are the ones being hardest hit right now. This could be a good inroad for Obama to sway the rural vote.

[pop goes the weasel]

8. here's what he should do

I live in a rural county, one of the poorest in the state. Nearly every family has at least one member who works outside the county; there simply aren't enough jobs or diverse enough jobs in the county to employ everyone. If he could stimulate decentralization so that rural retail would start coming back, that would be fan-fricking-tastic. If he would encourage the building of community college outreach centers in rural counties, that would be awesome. If he diverted money into mass transit, so that folks would only have to drive to the county seat and could then take a train or even a bus into the cities an hour away, that would be lovely!

There's a lot to be done, and a lot of people tired of false promises.

[safeinOhio]

11. Require cash

for all energy future options, no more margin investing. Oil might drop 30% in one fricking day.

[Psephos]

22. That's an idea worth more discussion. n/t

[truedelphi]

17. Speaking of mass transit - I 'd lvoe to see bullet trains.

A lot of people in the COunty where i live drive two hrs each way into work.

If we had a bullet train going from here to Santa Rosa, that would be awesome.

A friend of mine said, "That is totally impractical. Think of how expensive it would be." But if you add in the salary you'd make in the four hrs you in the car, plus the price of the gasoline in your tank - the price of the bullet train ticket would be acceptable.

[Wizard777]

18. Maglev (magnetic levitation) AKA bullet train. Absolutely!

But that requires electricity. Cleaner than fosil fuel. But you still have a sizable carbon foot print generating that electricity. So how are you gonna keep Al Gore off your back?

[Wizard777]

19. Rural outreach and even inreach. Great Idea!

You get bonuses like small business stimulation on the inreach and Mass transit on the outreach. You lower the demand which inturn lowers prices. What's not to like? Shouldn't Government be all about reaching people. Unless of course they want to be left alone. You have to respect that. The worst thing I can say about that is the lower prices might not come soon enough for some. I can hear Queen playing in my head. "I want it all and I want it now." That's America in a nut shell. But a great long term idea none the less.

[texastoast]

84. Send him an email

He needs to hear from the folks who are financing his campaign.

[Lorien]

37. Obama needs to show some bold vision on energy

there are solutions, but the political will is lacking: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0506/p03s05-usgn.html it's been said by prominent scientists and Al Gore that 100 miles square of solar panels could power the entire US.Now, the raw materials to make that many solar panels may not be available yet, but massive solar farms in rural areas of Arizona, Nevada and Texas could provide jobs and inexpensive (or even free) energy to low income households, government buildings and schools. We've already ripped up as many miles of land for coal production, with disastrous environmental and health results for local communities. Solar farms would have far from the same negative impacts. The fossil fuel companies would throw a fit over them, naturally, but we've GOT to start somewhere!

[AlCzervik]

9. we're a breath away from $5 a gallon for regular in California.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truthisfreedom]

14. Unfortunately, it will take so many years to undo this damage!

[superconnected]

15. I paid $4.20 today for the cheapeat gas at the pump - Everett, WA

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

24. Last Tuesday's fuel prices In Aspen CO....I dread to see this week's prices

[laylah]

45. My semi-ex

drives from Ft. Collins to Louisville daily. Is now able to telecommute a couple of days a week but it still sucks! Hopefully he'll break out the "crotch rocket" soon. These prices are insane. For me, here in Illinois, I have two choices...food, gas, food, gas...who'd a ever thunk it?

[tpsbmam]

64. Lived in Vail....

for a year during my wayward youth (ski bum) and, as I recall, prices across the board were higher than many places I lived because everything had to be delivered through the mountains. Sucks! So many have the impression that those areas don't matter because it's full of rich people. Um, no -- "normal" people have to live there and actually make these areas run! It's worth the tradeoff, IMO, but I recall the prices getting pretty overwhelming sometimes.

I'm now in the mountains in Western NC -- same issue here though nowhere near the prices you're facing! But our gas prices are the highest in NC -- everything has to be delivered through our beautiful mountains.

[DUlover2909]

27. Good. I wanna see more hardship over gas prices.

USE LESS. CONSERVE. It will spur on more technologies that use less fossil fuels. I am so strapped. I put $5 in my 1997 Honda Civic two weeks ago and the 2 mile trip to work for me is causing me to really feel the pinch.

No sympathy from me. Walk to work. Flame me if you want. I love high fuel prices. Move closer to wrok. If you can't, that's your own poor planning and irresponiblity. It's called personal accountability.

[newfie11]

33. Well as a farm owner who uses diesel you will be paying big bucks

for food and anything delivered. The cost of fertilizer has skyrocketed. We don't have any land in CRP. It is all in wheat and corn. However 2/3 of the wheat was plowed under (diesel tractor) when most didn't come up because of the drought.It was replanted in corn (more trips around the field with diesel tractors). Farmers in my area have planted sugar beets twice this spring due to being frozen out. Now we have so much rain some of the fields are standing water. Oh yeah that water is being pumped out with a diesel pump. The farmers you city people depend on to feed you can walk to work but work can't get done without diesel. Of course you can import food from other countries but there is the cost of transportation.

[NMDemDist2]

34. BINGO!! My brother in law farms wheat in eastern Washington

and the crop looks good, but the costs are through the roof!

[laylah]

46. ...

:hug: You farmers used to be the backbone of this once great country. :patriot: I am so sorry for your hardship.

[Crowman1979]

76. Seems like John Deer is dragging ass like the big 3 when it comes to fuel efficiency and alternative

energy. You'd figure they would be able to make electric farm equipment by now, and be able to charge it by hooking it up to a windmill.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. Ever been to a farm?

Seen one on TV? Farm stuff is heavy and requires a lot of power to move it.

[Crowman1979]

86. Yep, went to the corn fields frequently over nearby my grandparents lake cottage.

When me and my relatives head over to Little Wolf Lake in Jackson County on the weekend, we'd head over to the corn fields and bought some cobs directly from the farm. Plus I've visited some Apple orchards over at Ingham county. This all took place in Michigan BTW. Of course I recognize that farm equipment requires a lot of power, I'm just wondering why the farm equipment manufacturers aren't stepping up to the plate in order to help farmers from being dependent on using gasoline or in making more fuel efficient equipment.

BTW I'm not rich either and neither were my grandparents, they bought the cottage for $5k right after WW2 and never used any central air or heating for it.

[Marrah_G]

36. Wow- do you have to work hard to be such an asshole?

[Robb]

38. Can't wait to see you start conserving on $12/gallon milk

What a jackass, small-minded comment. It's this kind of urban myopia that's hurting all of us.

Hint: most of the roads in this country aren't paved.

[DUlover2909]

47. I don't need milk to survive.

I accept situations I can't change and I adapt. That's what everyone has to do. If I don't then I'll just die like all the species on earth that are dying becuase of the lack of conservation and the notion that we can't do without consuming all the fossil fuels as fast as possible. It's not small minded of me. It's called being realistic. Are you or are you not reaping the rewards of your own decisions? I'm tired of people complaining about gas prices. Do something about it.

The declining value of US currency and oil speculators are causing the higher prices. If people drove their personal vehicles less then we would have plenty of fuel for farm equipment, police, and other essential needs.

There was an article here on DU the other day showing an SUV that gets 150 mpg. It can go the first 40 miles on $1 of electricity. These are the kinds of technologies that we will see BECAUSE gas has gotten more expensive. So I say again YAY for HIGH GAS PRICES!

[Marrah_G]

68. You will excuse me if I don't share your enthusiasm when I think of the coming Winter

I also do not share your enthusiasm when I go to the grocery store.

[Lars39]

40. I've got poor family members that can barely get to much needed

medical appointments. You need to work on caring for your fellow human beings.

[DUlover2909]

48. I can more about the environment. That trumps people.

Call me a liberal I guess, oh wait this is a liberal website.

Without a healthy environment there can't be any people. Human suffering isn't going to disappear no matter what gas costs.

[Lars39]

75. You can care about both.

[EstimatedProphet]

44. While we're at it, let's see more cancer to promote single-payer healthcare!

And clearly the people haven't suffered enough for the war in Iraq, so let's start one in Iran and Syria!

Your arrogance is astounding.

[DUlover2909]

49. What was arrogant about what I said?

Flame away but back it up some so I can change for the better.

[EstimatedProphet]

51. The "no sympathy from me" part comes to mind

If you really want to change for the better, then you should think about all the people who don't live near public transportation, and who are working jobs that keep them in the working poor class. The rise in gas prices means many of them are having to make the choice between food/rent and gas. You're talking about a situation that is making people homeless and undernourished. In what way is that going to make the heads of major corporations start developing alternate energy, since they are the ones that are driving this in the first place?

In other words, the implied statement in "no sympathy from me" is that the poor can go screw themselves, because it's more important that a weak future prodding of the energy corporations to develop alternative resources happen than that the poor don't get run over in droves.

[DUlover2909]

59. Ok I see your point. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I would have probably said I was being more insensitive than arrogant but that's ok. It's just that I don't think people will use less fuel unless it costs more. It's human nature. People in Europe pay double what we pay and they somehow make it. It's very true that our transportation system is totally geared toward automobile ownership and I think that is a tragedy. Most smaller communities don't have public transportation at all.

I'd like to mention that in my own experience I hear people complaining about energy prices mostly outside of this website. I see them complain, but I don't see them take any action at all to improve their situation. They went and bought a pickup truck or SUV that gets terrible gas mileage and don't do anything more with it than what I do, go to work. They aren't work vehicles. They don't need them. They just like trucks and so they bought one. That's what I meant by personal accountability. They made their decision and now they pay the consequences. They didn't give one shit about fuel consumption up until the point at which it became too costly. Now, instead of making changes they want the government to fix it.

In the case of someone that is severely affected by gas prices to the point of losing their home or food, I would say that if they live so far from work that they absolutely depend on an automobile then that is a case of very bad planning. What if their car breaks down? Then they can't work anyway. Repairs and towing will cost more than a tank of gas. They should have an alternative ready if needed.

I still see alot of single passenger vehicles. HOV lanes are empty most of the time. People are going to have to adapt or else - regardless of my indifference. Sometimes hardship does something positive; it forces people to think and act differently. That's my 2 cents. Peace - thanks for reading.

[EstimatedProphet]

66. I do agree, in part

People do need to be more responsible in their choices. This is no longer the 1950's, and cheap energy then has led to less energy now, and a lot of environmental damage on top of it all. The problem IMO is that the changes in our situation have come as a great surprise to too many people in the US, and it isn't all their fault for not knowing about it in order to plan. Consider:

Less than a decade ago, gas was 1/4 of what it is now. Global warming was still just a rumor as far as the media was concerned. We had record employment and profits. Outsourcing employment was still on a tiny scale. The public was still fat and happy. then 9/11 changed everything. It really did too - it allowed the Bush administration to intentionally destroy the middle class, changing everything.

For the majority of history, one economic unit stayed pretty much the same value - a dollar in 1790 bought about as much as it did in 1890, and a Pound Sterling bought about the same amount for hundreds of years. The dollar really didn't begin to erode at a tremendous rate until the late 1960's, and it really fell apart under Reagan (regardless of what the Repig commercials about the shrinking dollar said.) It's devalued even more in just the last couple years. We're being forced to adapt to a lot of societal change in a very short period of time, and it may be too short for most people. Moving closer to work is a good idea - we just cut our commute in half last fall - but it takes a lot of planning and effort, and a lot of time to make it happen effectively. People in rural areas may not have the opportunities to use mass transit at all. That's my case. The job my wife and I do is necessary, but can't be done in an urban area for safety reasons. My wife and I both carpool with other employees, but everyone has different schedules so it wasn't easy to even arrange that. The people that have huge trucks just to show them off I have less sympathy for, but even then many of them bought them long before Bush turned the thumbscrews on us. My truck (which btw gets 25 mpg, not bad for a truck) I bought during the Clinton administration. Should people keep buying gashogs? Hell no! But one thng to remember: as gas gets more expensive, there's going to be a lot more demand for gas efficient cars. This is going to make them more expensive, and the gashogs will end up being the only thing the working poor can afford.

The big problem in my opinion isn't that people aren't taking advantage of the options they have, it's that for too many, there aren't enough options. We could have been forward-thinking decades ago, but we let Big Oil/Big Auto make the plans themselves. Now we have so little public transportation it's embarrassing. In my opinion, this has occurred intentionally, thanks to Big Oil/Big Auto. They have us right where they want us. Given that, there's very little incentive for them to cooperate in making our society more sustainable. People aren't going to use less fuel until it costs more - you're right. The problem is, now that it costs more, too many people are finding out that their options were taken away a long time ago, and it leaves them in an intended no-win situation. And Big Oil is laughing all the way to the bank. They'll keep laughing too, because the profits they have made are free and clear, so the CEOs can dump them in Swiss accounts and live off the interest like kings. So, the incentive for Big Oil to change is nonexistent with the people who have the power to make changes happen.

[tama]

56. Personal accountability?

As the farmer guy said, you practically eat oil (agromachinery, fertilizers, transport fuel, asphalt roads, maintenance energy, plastic wrappings etc. etc., chain of energy costs before you gollop your daily portion of nutrients). And as oil gets more and more costly, at some point you cannot afford to eat and die of malnutrition. If you can't eat, that's your own poor planning and irresponsibility. Or is it?

Unavoidably change from energy intensive technocratic farming to natural farming or permaculture, where we stop destroying the biocapital of Mama Earth and start to live off Her excess blessings, is not about personal accountability. It's about communal change, spiritual change, the most radical revolution since the dawn of civilization. It's a gradual learning process, so the only personal choise is about whether you start to learn (gardening etc.) or stick only to suicidal consumerism as part of the excess human population with no real alternative in sight.

Pointing the accusing finger at fellow human beings, who are conditioned by the error of civilization they were born to, and degrading them into mere "persons", does not help, when what is needed is deep understanding of the underlying causes and structures of our predicament (they are basically extremely simple: if you want our grandchildren to have chance to live good lives, don't destroy the biocapital of Earth but add to it, do not take from nature more than you give back), going through the emotional strains that growing beyond the "civilized" ways and freeing oneself from the "civilized" conditioning require, refinding or remembering true humility instead of personal pride and greed and connecting with your fellow beings in new ways... and learning some practical skills and attitudes (gardening) and then slowly, one small step after another, you may start the transformation from just-another-mouth-to-feed to a source of strength for you community, and even Mama Earth herself.

[DUlover2909]

60. thanks for posting =)

Yeah I agree. If I can't afford to eat then it is my responsibility. I am an adult and I am responsible for my survival. It's a tough, meanworld out there and you gotta accept what you can't change. "You become the change that you want to see in the world." That's what I try to do.

[tama]

61. Being adult

Somehow, I don't feel being an adult has anything to do about being responsible for personal-individual survival: egoism. Growing into adult is a process of starting to care more for some bigger whole than extending one's own personal survival - everybody dies, what matters is how you lived. Any parent gives his or her life for the next generation if necessary, that is nature's way. We can of course define "adult" any way we like, but I'd like to give the word a positive meaning. :)

[MadHound]

70. LOL, you are too funny, in an assholish sort of way

You're bitching about how much your two mile commute is costing you, yet lambast the rural people for living far from work. Well hey, dumbass, if that two mile commute is becoming too stressful to your pocketbook, I have a suggestion, either walk or ride a bike.

Oh, and if you didn't know, many farmers don't have to commute to work, their farm is their place of business. And by living out here in rural America, I can put up a wind turbine, woodstove, grow my own food, and much else to lessen my environmental impact. Yet what are you doing? Oh, yeah, driving two miles to work:rofl:

Oh, and as far as your Honda Civic goes, this is what I do my trips on, at 100mpg


Makes your Civic look like an SUV:rofl:

[DUlover2909]

91. I actually do ride a bicycle to work unless it's raining.

Go high energy prices. I love it.

[harun]

96. I won't flame you. No pain, no gain (n/t)

[Uben]

35. GAs should be $1.50/gal

That would be the fair price for a gallon of gas if the market was operating 1n a fair manner. My solution, tax all profits on oil speculation 100%! Yep, that would solve the problem....immediately! Sounds absurd, but extreme measures are needed for extreme circumstances.

[galledgoblin]

50. we need to subsidize gas prices for rural dwellers

city dwellers can get by with public transit, suburbia (the modern, standard form of it) needs to be completely eliminated and shifted back to the streetcar suburb of a hundred years ago, but traditional rural living needs personal vehicles to get from A to B (well, from house to local public transit hub to city at least) and unless we act now rising gas prices will be the final proverbial straw that kills the last of the independent family farms.

[ozone_man]

52. Reverse migration back to cities.

We has a mass transit system that was taken over by oil interests. It's time to reverse that. To be more like Europe.

Don't subsidize more use of gasoline. Subsidize renewable energy and, mass transit.

[galledgoblin]

53. there's always going to be rural dwellers

I advocate reversal of migration and public transit, but also help for poorer rural dwellers, particularly independent farmers.

rural living was never the problem- it's suburbia.

[ozone_man]

71. Of course we need the farmers.

I'm referring to the sprawl that has occurred due to subsidizing of the highways and cheap gasoline. Now, many Americans are finding that that model was unsustainable, as environmentalists have been trying to explain for years. People driving more that 50 miles per day to commute is unsustainable, and that's a common commuting distance. When mass transit is available, development occurs along the transit lines, or should anyway if the price incentives are there.

The reason things are so bad in this country is that the Westward expansion and development was done largely during the age of the automobile, instead of along the railways like in the North East.

Sustainable rural living can be supported by developing local economies that allow living off grid to a large extent. If they can get most of their needs within a 50 mile radius like Bill McKibbens tries to achieve. But we have to go a long way to allow that to happen. Toward a deep ecology or a social ecology. We have hooked most Americans on owning these large SUV's. How short sighted was that? All that we learned in the 70's was thrown out the window, and it's coming around to bite us.

I don't think that local communities in Arizona will be able to develop sustainable lifestyles, when they barely have enough water as it is. It's a desert.

I see high gas prices as a very good thing. It may be painful in the short term, but it's just what we need in the long term to correct a problem that is also causing global warming. The solutions are there, for renewable energy, if we only invest in the R&D and enact them. But there is no such thing as free energy, nor do we ever want such a thing to occur, because it would probably result in the destruction of the Earth from over use of energy. Learning to live with less energy is the ultimate key.

We need to end the subsidies that the oil industry, highway industry, and corporate agriculture has enjoyed over the last 70 years. Give the subsidies to sustainable agriculture, transportation, renewable energy, and sustainable living in general.

[tama]

58. Cities are death traps

Think in basics. As the effects of the coming power-down are so HUGE they are near impossible to imagine, you need to understand the basics. Rural dwellers, unless they are extremely stupid, won't die of hunger: they live where the nature produces food and can live by only solar energy in form of photosynthesis, if needed. It cost's lot of energy to transport that food for city dwellers, energy that is getting more scarce and costly. Big cities can only exist by feodalism and imperialism (ie. slavery) in one form or other, by trying to subjugate and control nature. Thus, big cities are evil.

[galledgoblin]

85. "big cities are evil"?

lolwut

except in the total breakdown of society, farmers can always come to the city to sell their goods, and city dwellers will always have enough to eat.

we did have this rural-urban system a good long time before the automobile, and we always will, and it can be done with everyone participating as equals.

[tama]

95. Simple math

Bigger the city, larger area and more people need to be subjugated to produce surpluss food for city dwellers - by thumb rule in non-sustainable way. The further the food needs to be transported from, the more energy is consumed.

There has never been equality or harmony between rural and urban, but allways a class strugle in some form or other.

[Marrah_G]

69. Who can afford to live in the city? Here in the north east I know I can't

[galledgoblin]

83. are you suburban or rural?

there's economic pros and cons to urban, suburban and rural living, but suburban is the only one of the three that impacts the other two negatively, driving up the costs.

rural living means low costs in general, but before you dismiss urban living as too expensive, remember that you need to make heavy investment in private infrastructure that is public for urban dwellers.

[Marrah_G]

87. I live in what I guess is the burbs between boston and providence

[galledgoblin]

89. follow up question

when were your 'burbs developed? are they auto-centric, or were they built with public transit in mind?

the "streetcar suburb" of a hundred years ago is where I think suburbia is headed back to, but the standard suburban nightmare built after 1945 that has grown progressively bigger, spread out more, and shifted emphasis to automobiles will be the slums in 20 years if current theories on peak oil and climate change hold out. it's already too costly to maintain them and it's just going to get worse.

[Marrah_G]

90. Incorporated in 1694

It was once the metal and jewelry center of New England. We do have some public transportation but it is limited and much of the manufacturing is now gone.

[tama]

57. No

If searching for the answer from technology on a large scale, you need local small scale wind-mills together with bigger ones that actually work (see http://www.windside.com/ instead of the stupid propels) and electric engine pick-ups. The tech is available, it just needs to be put in use. Horses etc. are not bad choise either. You need human hands working the land, lot's of human hands, of free men rather than slaves (of darker hue like Mexicans) - and that means communally sharing the land and it's blessings instead of aristocratic private ownership. Ecovillages etc. Most importantly, more rural dwellers (->90%) and less urban dwellers (->10%) and no suburban dwellers (->0%).

What we cannot afford any more are the panicky short term solutions you suggest to support a failing system that is fundamentally wrong.

[EstimatedProphet]

67. Hear hear! I'm in!

I garden, I can raise fish/shellfish, and I can brew and distill. I'll sign up!

[galledgoblin]

81. 90% of the population become heavy manual labor farmers?

...right, good luck with that.

the other ideas I like. the farm of the 21st century cannot be agribusiness, it needs to be small scale independent farmers working in co-ops.

[tama]

93. No luck needed

It's unavoidable necessity. With no cheap and bountifull energy to keep the industrial agriculture running "heavy manual labor" is what it takes if one want's to eat. And it keeps one healthy too! :)

[galledgoblin]

97. um...

physical labor-based farming is HARD. I know I medically could not manage it, nor could that full 90% of the population. what about everyone under 16 and above 40? hell, above 30? once chronic medical problems start, you're stuck with them. part of the reason lifespans were so short a century ago is that people relied on manual labor which wore them down early.

you're suggesting a system without options in life. unless you're part of that 10% living in those "evil" cities, you're a manual farmer. I like hobby farming, but I and almost everyone I know have never been attracted to full-time farming.

we have plenty of cheap and bountiful energy available, we just need to start harnessing it. I'm always pointing to the Northeast US, and I'll point to it again- between the vast hydro and wind power available, plus some moderate conservation, we can have all our modern amenities without leaving a negative impact environmentally.

[tama]

98. I can tell you

I am not suggesting a system, but telling what options nature is enforcing - I didn't choose them. On scale, there is nothing to replace oil, especially given the timetable and the still ongoing growth mania.

[pokercat999]

63. PASTE IT ON A PUMP CAMPAIGN !!!!! JOIN TODAY !!

Using plain paper stickers and my printer I've made stickers to put on gas pumps. They simply say "These PRICES brought to you by McCain/Bush VOTE a straight DEMOCRATIC ticket in November" with the words "prices Mccain/Bush" in red and "VOTE DEMOCRATIC" in green.


This may be a small violation of some law but a legal defense may be your first amendment right to free speech. Note here, I'm obviously not a lawyer....lol. I also use some discretion in applying the stickers, be aware that almost all stations have video of their pumps.


Every time I buy gas I use a different station and apply a sticker to the pump. I am an outside salesperson so I visit a station almost everyday.

Will you join in the campaign?

[emad]

73. Crude-obese whingers:

One month out of date but the overall rankings remain the same:


U.S. gas: So cheap it hurts
Relatively low taxes have kept pump prices far below most other developed nations, which some say is precisely why the current runup is so painful.


Most expensive places to buy gas
Rank Country Price/gal
1. Eritrea $9.58
2. Norway $8.73
3. United Kingdom $8.38
4. Netherlands $8.37
5. Monaco $8.31
6. Iceland $8.28
7. Belgium $8.22
8. France $8.07
9. Germany $7.86
10. Portugal $7.84
108. United States $3.45


Where gasoline is cheapest
Rank Country Price/gal
1. Venezuela 12 cents
2. Iran 40 cents
3. Saudi Arabia 45 cents
4. Libya 50 cents
5. Swaziland 54 cents
6. Qatar 73 cents
7. Bahrain 81 cents
8. Egypt 89 cents
9. Kuwait 90 cents
10. Seychelles 98 cents
44. United States $3.45

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news/international/usgas_price/?postversion=2008050109

[MadHound]

77. Yes, and look what those people get for those high taxes and high prices on gas

True single payer health care and other such social programs. A mass transit system that is the envy of the US. A government and corporate system that doesn't suppress the development of high mileage vehicles. Etc. etc.

Not to mention the fact that European, and most of the rest of the world, have urban areas designed for walking, biking and other ways to not use a car. Furthermore, these are relatively small countries, thus facilitating the use of other means of transportation than that of using a car.

Plus, economically, these countries are currently much better off than the US. Their currency isn't tanking(which is a large part of the rise in oil prices), nor are they saddled with a tremendous amount of debt as the US is.

So please, stop trying to compare apples and oranges here. Trying to placate the irate masses with this bullshit about the US paying low gas prices compared to the rest of the world is absolute, utter bullshit.

[emad]

79. The only bullshit is the denial of the gas and crude obese.

European medical care, welfare and social spending is paid directly by National Health Contributions, a compulsory direct tax deducted automatically currently from salary. Currently 11% of gross earnings, on top of the 20% or 40% that is paid in income tax.

NO OIL OR GAS TAXATION FUNDS ANY MEDICAL, SOCIAL OR WELFARE PROGRAMMES IN THE UK.

Got that?

As for your assertion that

"Not to mention the fact that European, and most of the rest of the world, have urban areas designed for walking, biking and other ways to not use a car"

this is utter patent nonsense of the most ignorant and imbecilic kind.

The rural and semi rural communities of Europe suffer as much deprivation in mobility terms as anywhere else on this planet.Having lived and worked all over Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Africa AND the USA for ther best part of 35 years I'd say the American mobility problems are mostly rooted in denial of the obvious.


As for your little gem:

"economically, these countries are currently much better off than the US. Their currency isn't tanking(which is a large part of the rise in oil prices), nor are they saddled with a tremendous amount of debt as the US is."

The USA has the largest GDP in the entire planet
EU debt is high as are its borrowings.
But then they aren't funding a war agaist Iraq.

Your outrage at paying $4 a gallon for gas is underpinned by bias and ignorance.

Those easy years of gas guzzling are over.