Director of Venezuela's Symphony Orchestra tortured

[windansea]

Cellist Carlos Eduardo Izcaray should have been directing the Venezuelan Symphony Orchestra yesterday in a performance of works by Sibelius and Dvorak's 8th symphony. Instead, he was recovering in a Caracas clinic after being brutally tortured and threatened with death by the national guard.

Izcaray's crime was to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. His testimony, and that of dozens of other victims in recent days, highlights the ethical dilemma that helped bring about the resignation Thursday of his country's ambassador to the UN, Milos Alcalay, who - as it happens - is a friend of Carlos Eduardo's father, Felipe Izcaray.

snip

Since he was not part of the demonstration - he is not even an opposition sympathiser - Izcaray did not run from the guard, who caught up with him, grabbed him and began giving him a beating that went on for over 20 hours.

"The guard forced us to sing pro-government songs," he continued. "Then they made us sit in line with our heads bowed, and a guy came along with some kind of electric-shock apparatus - I couldn't see what it was, but they gave us shocks on the neck, hands and arms."

read the whole thing...

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403070710

[w4rma]

1. Things are escalating

Note, this is also from the article on the opposition's actions:

...
"People were throwing stones," he said. "And a molotov cocktail landed almost on top of me. So I was just leaving for home (he lives nearby) when the national guard made their move."
...

[windansea]

3. I don't defend those who throw molotov cocktails

but this guy is not even a member of the opposition

he's famous and well liked and now is in the hospital, while the Chavez govt says...

"Torture? No, chico!" said defense minister Gen. Jorge Luis García Carneiro in response to a Herald query. Meanwhile, vice-president José Vicente Rangel said yesterday there had been "not a single case of torture" and that security forces had acted in an "absolutely controlled and rational" fashion.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. I don't defend those that are backed by the NeoCons, either.

[windansea]

26. right..neocons like Carter and Frank??

"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Elections Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez."


Posted: Friday, March 05, 2004
By: Roy S. Carson


US Congressman Barney Frank has "no confidence" in the constitutional autonomy of Venezuela's National Elections Council (CNE)
US congressman Barney Frank

In a press release issued from Washington D.C. today, US congressman Barney Frank (D-Ma) writes that "I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Elections Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez."

"I call on President Chavez to urge his supporters on the CNE to continue talks facilitated by the OAS and Carter Center to work out procedures to guarantee the rights of citizens who wish to confirm or refute their signatures."

snip

Contacted in Washington this afternoon, Frank told VHeadline.com that he sees President Chavez Frias as pressuring the CNE to declare the referendum petition invalid ... "I've spoken with the Carter Center and I believe that the signatures that were gathered without them filling out the forms, that there was a miscommunication, a misunderstanding and there does not appear to be any doubt about these signatures/thumbprints and that is pretty well verifiable."

snip

"If it (my information) turns out wrong I will retract my statement, but I'm afraid that my impression was that pressure had been put on the CNE or the majority members and I could not have a lot of confidence in the validity of that process where people who had admittedly signed would have to come back and verify ... if they sign and put their thumb print there, what's the point in making them come back?"

note that the article also describes Frank as an "open homosexual"

wonder what that has to do with it????

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16242

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. Gee, I haven't read where they're supporting the coup attempts...

...maybe you can enlighten us about Carter and Frank's background in covert activity.

[windansea]

38. look...the Carter Center observed the signature

gathering...they say the signatures are A-ok and criticize the Chavez controlled CNE for trying to use technicalities to invalidate signatures that include fingerprints and ID numbers on fraud proof sexurity paper...3.5 million of them....this is not a coup and the reason Chavez is fighting it is because he knows he will lose

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. Hey, whatever you say. Keep posting.

[windansea]

75. ok..more on the signatures

The signatures collected by the opposition for a referendum are not being questioned by the electoral authorities. At question is not whether the signatures displayed similar handwriting.

The signatures show original and individual handwriting.

At issue is the data that corresponds to the signatures, such as the signatory’s full name in print, address and identification number.

Many people who couldn’t fill out the forms alone, be it for a lack of education, age, bad health, or confusion, were assisted by volunteers standing next to the tables. This took place under the watchful eyes of both pro-government and pro-opposition observers, electoral workers, and international observers.

The individuals who were assisted when filling out their forms provided their own signatures.

At the time, no one had a problem with the assistance provided. Not the electoral authorities, nor the pro-government witnesses.

It only became an issue when the opposition presented 3.4 million signatures, well above the 2.4 million required to activate the recall referendum.

It is imperative that anyone observing Venezuela’s electoral process understands this small detail. To write that 876,017 signatures “have the same calligraphy” or “display similar handwriting” implies that the opposition committed massive fraud, promoting Chavez’s accusations better than even him.

By rejecting the “assisted” forms, the National Elections Council violated its own norms.

Article 22 of the norms on recall referenda states that only the signature is required to be a “handwritten original”. It says nothing of the corresponding data.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

143. Whatever. Read post #138 for additional info on Carter.

[dax]

117. So you don't think the Coup forces buy off National guard or police?

The same stuff happening in Haiti-they bought off some police who knows how long ago- to be thugs specifically for propaganda purposes to be used by people like you to distract everyone from what's really going on:http://www.haiti-progres.com/eng02-11.html
This was reported on February 11, before the Coup was completed:

"The offensive began on the morning of Feb. 5 when the newly constituted Front of Revolutionary Resistance of Gonaïves (FRRG) attacked that city’s police headquarters with automatic weapons fire and grenades. Many civilians and several policemen were killed in the five-hour gun battle that ensued, although it is not clear how many from numerous conflicting reports. Eventually the police withdrew. The attackers overran the station and freed all the prisoners in jail, “among them lots of criminals whom courts had convicted,” said a Feb. 7 police communiqué. “They looted, burned vehicles, burned the homes of several citizens... and then burned down the police headquarters.” The rebels also burned down the hotel and home of former Gonaïves mayor Stephen Topa Moïse as well as the offices of the Artibonite Department’s government representatives, called delegates.

Leaders of the FRRG include Jean “Tatoune” Pierre, who was convicted and jailed for his role in the April 1994 Raboteau massacre but freed in an Aug. 2002 prison break (see Haïti Progrès, Vol. 20, No. 21, Aug. 7, 2002 ); Butteur Métayer, who alighted in Gonaïves from Miami last September after the mysterious murder of his brother, a pro-Aristide popular organization leader (see Haïti Progrès, Vol. 21, No. 29, Oct. 1, 2003 ); and Winter Etienne, the former government-appointed director of the Gonaïves hospital and a member of the Open Gate Party (PLB).

The next day, armed men from the opposition-aligned organization RAMICOS attacked the police station 25 miles south of Gonaïves in the town of St. Marc, which also straddles the strategic main artery to Haiti’s north. They also looted and burned the customs house and some containers. The police rapidly retreated, apparently in cahoots with the attackers, for whom they left behind all the station’s weapons and ammunition. One of the station’s commanders, a former Haitian army soldier, is known to be close to fellow former soldier and rising opposition leader, Dany Toussaint, who recently defected from Aristide’s Lavalas Family party (FL).

Police complicity appears to have been involved in at least a few of the other town takeovers by the opposition. While reports are conflicting, the armed opposition appears to have, at least briefly, controlled about ten smaller towns, among them Trou du Nord, Saint-Raphaël, Dondon, Marchand-Dessalines, Ennery, Gros-Morne, L’Estère, Anse-Rouge, Petite Rivière de l’Artibonite, as well as Grand Goâve in the south. In many cases, public buildings and the homes of government officials or supporters were burned or looted. Reports of these takeovers, however real or brief, provided fuel for the panic which opposition controlled radio stations, and consequently their corporate media information dependents, have sought to spread..."

If you visit DemocracyNow-you can hear New YOrk Times reporter Kinzer talk about how part of the Coup operation is to buy off government officials, police, crooks and gangs to create the image of chaos and commit atrocities that can be used for propaganda purposes and I think it is an undisputed fact that Venezuala media is totally controlled by the opposition forces which feed right into the corporate controlled media in America. BUSH is every bit MORE CULPABLE than Chavez for the street unrest and violence that is going on in Venezuala-its just part of the operation that, by the way, will consider the death and destruction of innocent civilians "collateral damage". The bottom line is do you STAND FOR DEMOCRACY??? Let Venezuala decide what they want and US QUIT INTERFERING with propaganda, funding and weapons period.

as far as the recall-I would be suspicious if I found bogus signatures and want to check those lists-the opposition turned in the lists late and they cheated and now they think they can demonstrate and gang-war their way into power and that makes Chavez a dictator? you have weird perceptions of reality, no really you do.

[mobuto]

2. This is obviously opposition political propaganda

Nobody associated with Hugo Chavez could ever do anything wrong. Opposition political leaders assasinated? Well, that must have been the opposition there again. Protesters killed? Must be the opposition. This isn't politics some of the DU Chavistas subscribe to, its religion.

[windansea]

4. heh heh

your sarcasm duly noted...I'm not sure if the DU chavistas are misinformed or have some sort of agenda...they sure seem anxious to suppress a constitutional right of Venezuelans to hold a recall vote...what are they afraid of???

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. Nobody here is supporting that kind of activity,...

...but we do have a lot of questions about why the NeoCons are pressing so hard to overthrow another legally elected government.

Couldn't be the oil, could it?

And while we're on the subject of torture, who do you think taught all of the South American police forces how to get the most information out of a helpless prisoner? What country located in North America has supported every single dictator in Central and South America over the past several decades?

I don't really think you want to discuss torture...too many connections to the U. S.

[leftistagitator]

8. You people are sad

Just like the last time when he ordered the guard to open fire on innocent protesters? It turned out that an anti Chavez terrorist group had opened fire on Chavez supporters, and in the ensuing chaos the opposition's media outlets, including the AP, told the bald faced lie that the national guard had been ordered to attack peaceful protesters. Media organizations which are run by the opposition will lie to you. These traitors failed again to get the signatures they needed, and so they just forged 800,000 and tried to sneak them by the courts, and failed at that too. And now they're in the streets threatening to riot again, there's a surprise. But I guess it has been 6 months since they last failed to shut down the country with riots, so they were due. They are lucky to have Chavez, any other ruler in the world would have already had them all shot. The fact that people believe media sources who constantly lie to them is at the root of so much that is wrong with the world.

PS Whats the big PR offensive about lately? Are you guys gonna start another coup soon? Trying to drum up support for it abroad?
I thought you plan was to leak that there might be Muslims in Venezuela, which combined with its oil would surely be enough to qualify for Bush style regime change.

[Jazzgirl]

14. I believe al Qaeda are there leftist.....

At least thats what the US guvmint said at one time. :-)

</sarcasm>

[not systems]

68. "big PR offensive"

I agree they are planning something.

I think the Bush gang is getting nervous and wants to
execute all available plans before they lose the levers
of power to Kerry next fall.

Their witting or unwitting dupes here are on overtime.

Guess the last oil grab was not enough to slop the lot.

[mobuto]

69. What kind of dupe am I?

Witting or unwitting? ;-)

[NashVegas]

106. Nothing Like a Good Self-Fulfilling Prophecy

For a moment, take Chavez out of it: the anti-Chavez agitators have been getting all manner of support from Uncle Sam.

Chavez has three options:

Kiss Bush's pinky ring.
Continue to tell the US-backed oppostion to fuck off, and watch as they agitate away until the place starts looking like Haiti.
Hold his breath and pray for Bush's downfall, and then kiss *Kerry's* pinky ring.

[not systems]

11. I heard Aristide had the corpses of six infants...

sacrificed in a ritual killing on the radio.

And I should believe what the press says about these people?

Please.

They lied last time about the coup, why should the US press be believed?

[Bozita]

12. "Newborns in Kuwait were thrown to the floor as their incubators were ...

... stolen by Saddam's army."

Yep, we remember.

[Serendipity36]

43. Oh my GOD!!!

What the hell is wrong with those people???

This is so horrible!!

Why all the fighting and pain?

Humanity is finished.

[Just Me]

45. Did you forget your sarcasm button,...

,...or have you forgotten the incubator story was proven to be an act of pure fabrication generated by our well-oiled propaganda machine?

[RedCloud]

179. Bozita nails it right on the head!

This was what Bushllit I said and lied when he wanted to get support from us. It turns out that the babies ripped out of their incubators was not only completely fabricated but encouraged by a Republican advocacy group out of DC. Same thing has happened with the lying WMDs that "came" from the mouths of Iraqi "defectors".

With bin Laden and the Al Quida operating as CIA tools who is to believe Bushllit II and the super vivísimos operating in Venezuela? Shock and scare is what the repugs do best.

Even if Chávez has 3,000,000 against him, he probably has at least 10,000,000 for him.

Too bad the USA doesn't have the Adeco-Copeyano corruption to help hide the Oilagarchy's evil plan.

[Judi Lynn]

5. You're using VCrisis as a reference?

DU'ers should notice the logos on the right side of the screen in your link.

CubaNet is based in Coral Gables, Fla. and is funded by U.S. taxpayers' money through the N.E.D., created by Ronald Reagan. They also manage and supervise articles written by Cuban "independent journalists."

Also, check out the "Haiti Democracy Project:"
http://www.haitipolicy.org/archives.htm

So who do we thank for the tide of new thinking we're finding in articles and commentary here?

Good lordalmighty.

[GermanDJ]

7. windandthesea is (almost) a funny person

In another thread (in which he spread some more right wing-propaganda) he first quoted the Washington Times. Later in the same thread he said, in an attempt to justify his propagandist actions, that the Washington Times is 100% pro Bush.

It was almost comical to see how his thinly disguised attack derailed.

[windansea]

13. hehehe

you mean this thread??

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=402628&mesg_id=402628

which I started out with an article in the Washington Post, and a venezuelan blog at Salon....the only time I cited the Times was to produce a quote by Rangel saying he didn't like or support Aristide in response to a poster who laughed when I posted Rangel didn't support Aristide...the quote was real...Chavez supporters here are deluded or have an anti democratic agenda because they want to suppress the constitutional rights of Venezuelans to have a recall

The sources I have used or quoted in regards to this include the Carter Center, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Reporters without Borders, Congressman Barney Frank, and one aforementioned quote by Rangel...not opinion, from the Washington Times.

Anyone paying attention can see your desperation trying to smear me as a winger....let me know wwhen you come up with anything remotely resembling an argument for suppressing democratic rights of venezuelans.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. "Desperation to smear" you as a winger?....

No, quite the contrary, you're doing a good job all by yourself.

[windansea]

23. hehe

by quoting Rangel, Carter, and Frank???

try again

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. Junior has quoted quite a few people that I admire...

...that doesn't mean that I have to admire Junior.

Quotes are just like statistics, they can be used by anyone to attempt to prove a point.

Next.

[windansea]

25. Barney Frank statements

I guess Barney and Jimmy are neocons and part of the "conspiracy"




"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Elections Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez."


Posted: Friday, March 05, 2004
By: Roy S. Carson


US Congressman Barney Frank has "no confidence" in the constitutional autonomy of Venezuela's National Elections Council (CNE)
US congressman Barney Frank

In a press release issued from Washington D.C. today, US congressman Barney Frank (D-Ma) writes that "I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Elections Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez."

"I call on President Chavez to urge his supporters on the CNE to continue talks facilitated by the OAS and Carter Center to work out procedures to guarantee the rights of citizens who wish to confirm or refute their signatures."

snip

Contacted in Washington this afternoon, Frank told VHeadline.com that he sees President Chavez Frias as pressuring the CNE to declare the referendum petition invalid ... "I've spoken with the Carter Center and I believe that the signatures that were gathered without them filling out the forms, that there was a miscommunication, a misunderstanding and there does not appear to be any doubt about these signatures/thumbprints and that is pretty well verifiable."

snip

"If it (my information) turns out wrong I will retract my statement, but I'm afraid that my impression was that pressure had been put on the CNE or the majority members and I could not have a lot of confidence in the validity of that process where people who had admittedly signed would have to come back and verify ... if they sign and put their thumb print there, what's the point in making them come back?"

note that the article also describes Frank as an "open homosexual"

wonder what that has to do with it????

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16242

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. Even Barney Frank is wrong once in a while.

[hellhathnofury]

30. Isn't it possible then that you too could be wrong once in awhile?

Maybe this instance?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. Nope.

[AP]

31. House Finance Committee members are not the people I'm looking to for

an honest opinion about Venezuela.

[alfredo]

32. We do not tolerate human rights abuses on the right, so we should not

tolerate them on the left. If the charges are true about Chavez, we should be equally harsh on him. It does us no good to support bad actors.

I have little confidence in getting the truth about what is going on there. I am more concerned about bush involvement in the overthrow of a government that, unlike ours, was legally elected by the people.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. But who is supplying the so-called "documentation" to Carter and...

...the other watchdog groups? Who was supplying the information about Iraqi WMDs?

And yes, I agree with your second paragraph.

[windansea]

60. Carter Center and international observers were there

watching the signatures get collected...and they say they are legit

so you can believe President Carter...or the guy who is afraid of a recall vote

[alfredo]

84. We are at the mercy of those who are witnesses to events. Carter has

credibility in my eyes, but I am still withholding judgment.

[NashVegas]

108. Take Off Your Carter Blinders

And go read about what really went down in El Salvador. If Carter thinks it imperative we have a US-friendly government in Venezuela and the only way of getting it is by getting Chavez out, he'll work to help get Chavez out.

The only way Chavez will get relief from US-backed agitation is if Kerry wins the election in November and he can get along with a Kerry administration.

[alfredo]

114. I am not saying that Carter is blameless, but he has more credibility than

the people we have in office right now. Still I am taking a wait and see attitude before I put my full endorsement to anyone.

anyway, I am too sleepy to be talkng politics.

[NashVegas]

107. I *Beg* Your Pardon?

We tolerate human rights abuses in:

Saudi Arabia
Russia
Israel
Burma

and a host of other places.

The only difference between a country that has human rights issues and gets invaded or has civil strife planted, and one that doesn't get invaded is that the ones who don't get invaded: suck up to us very well; have the bomb; are not strategically important; any combination of the three.

[dax]

148. Just a point about logic....unsubstantiated hearsay does not prove

You make a point, based on hearsay, than quote someone else to prove it is true -two hearsays don't a fact make (please don't flame me I am not a lawyer just studying labor arbitration)

[ParanoidPat]

49. Screw Jimmy Carter! If he cared at all about elections and democracy.....

.....he'd be doing something about his own home state of Georgia! :evilgrin:
Why the hell is he sticking his nose in elections in other countries when his own home state is rampant with election fraud and has the worst election laws in the entire country? Why has he sat back and allowed his home state to adopt Diebold voting machines without a single word from this so called 'expert' on elections?
Judging by how elections have been going in his own back yard I should trust his judgment because??? :shrug:

[hellhathnofury]

122. That is so lame.

It's changing the subject.

Carter has beaucoup international credibility, he won a Nobel Peace Prize for chrissakes!

[dudeness]

127. carter has no international credibility

kissinger and arafat also have nobel peace prizes..

[ParanoidPat]

178. Are you saying that Georgia doesn't have electoral dysfunction?

Now that's lame! :evilgrin:

Jimmy should pay attention to the electoral problems in his own back yard that are threatening THIS country before spouting off about problems elsewhere!

By the way, since jimmy is 'the word' on elections with you, where did he stand on the Chavez election? :)

Hell, where was old peanut boy during the 2000 election HERE??? :shrug:

I don't recall him making a big stink about that!

[ParanoidPat]

48. I'd have to wholeheartedly agree!

:thumbsup: :evilgrin: Sad ain't it? LOL!

OMG! BABIES STACKED LIKE CORD WOOD! THE HORROR!!!

Should I check the archives to see if windansea also posted the stories of thousands of Iraqi's spontaneously pulling down the statue of Saddam? :shrug: :)

[windansea]

62. please do

:bounce:

[eablair3]

37. re: heheheh

windansee, ... I don't mind you trying to present the other side in these discussions, but the few times I have read your posts they have been very weak in terms presenting the other side.

For example, in one thread that had to do with Haiti and Aristide, you started posting statements from a human rights group. As I recall, this group was named "National Coalition For Haitian Rights". It was based in New York. I never was convinced it had any Haitians involved in it, especially poorer Haitians. You then made reference to Human Rights Watch in reference to Haiti. The first example you posted by the NCHR related to an incident where they claimed that "pro-Aristide" supporters shouted down and beat students at a univeristy that were trying exercise their freedom of speech. The reason this was posted was to show how repressive Aristide supposedly was. It was one of the weakest arguments I have seen made in these instances. No evidence was even attempted to be submitted to show what the actual connection was to Aristide, if any.

There are people in the U.S. that show up at demonstrations and berate and sometimes get physical against demonstrators because they are "not supporting the troops". These anti-demonstrators yell things like "if you don't like America, leave." And, many other things. They get physical at times, as well. Should we malign George Bush, and say they are "pro-Bush supporters" and that George Bush is responsible for these protestors being out there. Some of the other human rights stuff you posted was from times that Aristide wasn't even in power or happened just shortly after he won the election in Nov 2000. You seem to post and blame all these incidents of alleged human right violations in Haiti as the personal fault of Aristide. Have you looked at the human rights reports on the U.S.? Is G Bush personally responsible for everything in those?

The point of this is that the posts that I have seen you make to respond with are usually very weak. I have't seen all your posts, but based on what I have seen or stumbled across, I have no desire to go and read the rest. Your method seems to be to take what are no doubt propaganda pieces and republish them over and over.

I don't mind someone posting the other side of the argument and challenging what is posted. I'd just appreciate the posts and the arguments being better and with better support.

With this Chavez and the referendum issue, I have no doubt that the U.S. funded opposition most likely cheated on some of the signatures, as has been reported. How many is the question. Once they are found to have cheated (or committed fraud and forgery) on some, is it right to highly scrutinize the others? What internal guidelines and procedures did these opposition groups have for gathering and confirming the signatures? Many of these people just got done plotting a violent coup where they forcibly took Chavez away, and then the next morning declared the dissolution and dismissal of the National Assembly, the Supreme Court and many other democratically elected bodies. Those are facts. The video of it, fortunately, is available to be seen. The media manipulation was hgue, as the media is owned by the opposition. I'm sure these people would have no problem in fudging on signatures.

[windansea]

44. the NCRH

The achievements of the National Coalition for Haitian Rights (NCHR) are without parallel in the field of advocacy for the rights of Haitians in Haiti and elsewhere.

Established as the National Coalition for Haitian Refugees in 1982 by a coalition of 42 U.S. and Haitian religious, labor and human rights organizations, NCHR aimed to assure that Haitian asylum applicants receive fair hearings in the United States and educate the U.S. public about the political and economic causes of the Haitians' flight from their homeland.

more...
http://www.nchr.org/mnd/nc02000.htm

they have offices in New York and Haiti and are recognozed by Human Rights watch and the UN

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/02/haiti0205.htm

My posts on both Haiti and Venezuela have contained cites from HRW, NCHR, Amnesty International, Carter Center, Reporters without Borders, and quotes from Carter, Barney Frank Senator Harkin etc

I don't especially like Aristade..neither does Rangel...and I don't think he was forced to resign..neither does Harkin

As for Chavez...he is a thug posing as a populist...he was once supported by 80%...including many of my friends...but he has revealed his true colors and if a recall is allowed to happen he will get voted out...that's why he's fighting against it

[eablair3]

50. your NCHR and other human rights postings by you

like I said, I don't mind you posting things from human rights groups, but what you post most often doesn't support your argument or position it seems to me. It's kind of like Bush repeatedly saying "we must fight the war on terrorism. We must not forget the lessons of 9-11. Saddam Hussein is a dangerous killer and a threat and menace to his own people." Bush linked (and lied) about the connection between Saddam and 9-11. You employ the same meethod, by posting articles relating to human rights in countries and then either you or they implicitly or sometimes explicitly blame the leader (ex Aristide) for those incidents. Why don't you blame G Bush for all the human rights violations identified in the U.S. by those same groups? Go ahead, read their reports on the U.S. and then I want to see you come in here and blame G Bush for much or all of that.

As far as Aristide, he agreed to have a new round of elections and to let the people of Haiti decide who they wanted. He even agreed to have those elections monitored by reputable groups, as was done before. The opposition refused to participate before, and they refused to agree to such elections just recently. There is not a lot more to be said. This speaks volumes.

In Venezuela, those in the opposition attempted a forcible coup against Chavez becuase they didn't have enough votes to even come close to removing Chavez. So, they are nothing more than anti-democratic and some are criminals in perpetrating frauds and forgeries and some in perpetrating a coup. They have elections coming up in 2006. If they are so democratic and law-abiding, they ought to focus on organizing and getting all their so-called supporters out to the polls then. They obviously are more interested in perpetrating coups. And, no doubt the reason they are more interested in that is, like in Haiti, that they don't have the votes.

[windansea]

58. look...I don't support coups

and condemned the one in 2002 against Chavez...but did you know Chavez also attempted 2 armed coups against an elected government in 1992?

This referendum is another story...Chavez supported the constitutional law which grants the right...and has been delaying the recall and trying to invalidate signatures because his support has slipped to 50% or below..depending on whose polls you believe.

If he is so popular..why does he fear a recall??

[eablair3]

64. Why don't you support ELECTIONS?

If you don't support coups, why don't you support those who are elected in fair elections? I'm not saying you have to support them just because they were elected, but more that the process of elections should be supported.

As far as the referendum on Chavez, many of the signatures have proven to be fraudulent and forged. That's not surprising since they are backed by those that mounted a coup against Chavez when they knew they didn't have the votes for a referendum or an election. So, they mount a massive anti-Chavez propaganda campaign using the media that they own and control, as well as people that will go around and spread the massive propaganda (like was done to Aristide in Venezuela).

This is the Republicans' method of operation -- lie, "spin," deceive and manipulate mass public opinion in these ways -- because they know if people know the truth the vast majority would never vote Republican. So, they have all the spin meisters such as Limbaugh, Hannity, Wiener, that they put on the air while taking off the air people like Phil Donahue to put people like Scarborough in their place. Those wealthy interests behind the corporations, control public opinion by controlling who and what viewpoints are primarily heard over and over again. The same method, among others, is being used in Venezuela, only in a more severe and not nearly successful way.

So, while I find nothing wrong with being opposed to one who is elected, it does seem that the common thread should be to support elections. And, those whose viewpoints you perpetuate don't support elections.

[windansea]

71. uh huh.....

Yet, after delaying its response for weeks, the commission, dominated by Mr. Chavez's supporters, rejected 1.6 million of them, or nearly half the total. To do so, it invented requirements that didn't previously exist.

this means somebody helped them fill out name address etc...they have signatures, fingerprints, and National ID cards were asked of each and every person...all this done in front of Carter Center reps and other observers

Chavez is playing games...because he knows he will lose

[eablair3]

76. keep up the progaganda & supporting coup backers

thanks.

[mobuto]

77. Coup backers or coup leaders?

The latter group would definitely include Mr. Chavez himself.

[ParanoidPat]

82. You got a link to that or are you just desperately reaching?

ROFLMAO! :shrug: :evilgrin:

[windansea]

89. eat up

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_161.shtml

[ParanoidPat]

90. BWAHAHAHAHA! The Air Combat Information Group is your source?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Give it a fuckin' rest already! :evilgrin:

Don't you have anything other than right wing sources? :)

[windansea]

98. ok how bout WSWS????

Chavez, a former paratrooper who rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel, staged an abortive coup attempt in 1992 against the government of Carlos Andres Perez and was jailed for his efforts. Six years later, he was elected president as head of the Patriotic Pole, an electoral front comprised of his own Fifth Republic Movement and various parties of the petty-bourgeois nationalist left.



lefty enought for you??

you are sadly lacking in your knowledge of Venezuelan history...perhaps a bit more study before you demonstrate this in public

PS the air combat site is non political...air combat is a military science and some of our best pilots are gasp....democrats!!!

[bemildred]

92. Fascinating link, thanks. nt

[mobuto]

105. Excuse me?

You're saying Hugo Chavez didn't lead an abortive coup attempt in 1992? Of course he did.

That's not desperately reaching at all. The man's just as contemptuous of democracy as his enemies. They're all shits.

[AP]

145. If America were governed as Venezuela was pre-92, it would be your

obligation as an American committed to democracy to fight back for the people.

It was a fascist state.

In WWII Jews and others in France and Italy fought against the fascists in the underground. According to your logic, they were contemptuous of "democracy."

[mobuto]

152. So basically you're comparing pre-1992 Venezuela

to the Holocaust. Brilliant.

Any excuse to defend a military coup.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

180. Agreed - Windandsea's posts

are all full of anti-Chavez propaganda (ala Ari Fleischer) as he says he condemns the 2002 coup. It sounds like talking out both sides of your head to me.

[windansea]

186. perhaps you don't understand the diference

between armed coups and referendums/recall votes?? I condemn the former and support the latter...my position is the same as people like Carter and Frank, who are both calling on Chavez and the CNE to validate the signatures, stop playing games, and let the people decide.

If you'd like to explain why you support Chavez and his tactics to suppress democracy and the constitutional laws of Venezuela please explain.

[dax]

59. Don't know much about immigration code, DO YOU?

now you just stuck a toe in the bath I am very familiar with-if you want to immigrate from a country that our government perceives to be communist, THEY CAN REQUIRE YOU to do anti communist advocacy for 6 years to get your status. How do I know? I loved an englishman once and we wanted to marry and live here-he had a reputation (he was one of Bernadette Devlin's press advance people at one time, had led a lot of labor actions etc. was your general community organizer-union activist kind of person as was I here in America. The COintelpro type people took us in an office and offered us 60,000 dollars a year, cars and expenses to infiltrate labor organizations and left groups and spy for them. Simple they would pay for anything we wanted we could live anywhere. We said no. They denied him a visa to come back to America, I lived in England for a while and Britain denied me a work permit. We had to separate. I didn't want to leave the belly of the monster-we live in the BELLY OF THE MONSTER. If I have time I will try to find the immigration code for you but it is quite clear and part of why all those defectors told such heinous stories about Cuba RUssia etc. all these many years and still do-if they don't they can be deported from the land of the "free....

[Bridget Burke]

91. Thanks for the information

It explains a lot about some of the propaganda being flushed through DU in the last couple of days.

[ParanoidPat]

177. Here, this should explain even more.....

From ZNet Just one of 61,900 hits in a Google search for Venezuela, coup, CIA :evilgrin:

The CIA And The Venezuela Coup

Hugo Chavez: A Servant Not Knowing His Place

by William Blum
Counterpunch
April 14, 2002



LATIN AMERICA WATCH

How do we know that the CIA was behind the coup that overthrew Hugo Chavez?

Same way we know that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. That's what it's always done and there's no reason to think that tomorrow morning will be any different.

Consider Chavez's crimes:

Branding the US attacks on Afghanistan as "fighting terrorism with terrorism", he demanded an end to "the slaughter of innocents"; holding up photographs of children killed in the American bombing attacks, he said their deaths had "no justification, just as the attacks in New York did not, either." In response, the Bush administration temporarily withdrew its ambassador.

Being very friendly with Fidel Castro and selling oil to Cuba at discount rates.

His defense minister asking the permanent US military mission in Venezuela to vacate its offices in the military headquarters in Caracas, saying its presence was an anachronism from the cold war.

Not cooperating to Washington's satisfaction with the US war against the Colombian guerrillas.

Denying Venezuelan airspace to US counter-drug flights.

Refusing to provide US intelligence agencies with information on Venezuela's large Arab community.

Questioning the sanctity of globalization.

Promoting a regional free-trade bloc and united Latin American petroleum operations as a way to break free from US economic dominance.

Visiting Saddam Hussein in Iraq and Moammar Gaddafy in Libya.

And more in the same vein which the Washington aristocracy is unaccustomed to encountering from the servant class.

<More>

[0007]

86. That isn't what Harkin said on the senate floor

Seens your more than a little confused.

[windansea]

187. it's what he said after talking to Aristade

the same night Waters and Rangel did...basically..that Aristide was not kidnapped or forced to resign.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

9. Nice catch! Thanks!

[Just Me]

10. If anyone doubts the existence of an extremist right-wing conspiracy,...

,...they are fooling themselves. I see this network planting themselves all over the place.

Judi,...again, thank you for pointing out the links. You are quite a gem!!!

[windansea]

19. Chavez said he had proof of CIA plots in 2002

never produced it

now he's saying the same thing about the referendum and the opposition...and some here are swallowing it again.

Many of my friends in Venezuela voted for Chavez but now oppose him

When elected he had 80% approval ratings...now it's around 30%

Chavez supporters at DU look foolish in supporting his attempts to delay a recall vote that has massive support from Venezuelans..trying to blame it on some conspiracy is self centered and myopic.

[windansea]

15. so you saying the report is false??

I'm sure they just made this up and a famous conductor isn't really in the hospital after being tortured...

duers should note that Chavez supporters regularly cite http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/ which would be more aptly named the
Chavez government mouthpiece which is what it really is.

[Just Me]

16. CubaNet funded by NED,...

National Endowment for Democracy (misnomer): 1st funded by Reagan, does what CIA used to do covertly by funding opposition groups (mostly militant loyalists to corporate fascists) in foreign nations. What Judi is stating is the obvious: your source is unreliable and spews nothing but pure propaganda.

[mobuto]

17. The Miami Herald interviewed the guy

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/8110182.htm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

18. Do you remember the Kuwaiti woman who testified before Congress...

...about seeing Kuwaiti babies being taken off of repirators by the Iraqi soldiers and being left to die?

Do you also remember the fact that it was later discovered that she was the daughter of a Kuwaiti diplomat, and that she had never seen what she described in great detail? In fact, no evidence ever surfaced to support her claims.

Lots of stories out there...if they're supported in any way by the NeoCons you can bet they're not true.

[mobuto]

36. I do remember the Kuwaiti baby thing

However this is 2004, not 1991 and we're in Venezuela, not Iraq.

So the question stands: Are you denying that this guy was tortured by Chavistas?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. And the same cast of characters are behind both stories....

...are you denying that we may be getting bad information just like we did prior to the current invasion of Iraq?

[ParanoidPat]

56. Absolutely, YES, WITHOUT A DOUBT!

I put it right up there with the Gulf of Tonkin, babies in incubators, Iraqi's "spontaneous" statue demolitions, Aristides "resignation" and "request for safe passage", Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction program related activities intentions and reconstituted nukes, ( :crazy: ) and all the other blatant lies from this administration.

We have a saying out west and I think they may have it in Texas as well....

FOOL ME ONCE! Period!

So where are all the links to this story in the mainstream media? :shrug:

[Zhade]

131. How convenient for Hill & Knowlton - they have an office in Caracas.

Pizzolante - Comunicacion Estrategica
Calle Boyaca, Qta. 2002, El Rosal
Caracas, 1060
Venezuela
Hill & Knowlton Latin America Headquarters

Telephone: [phone]
E-Mail: [e-mail]

http://www.hillandknowlton.com/global/contact/by_company/associates/151

[windansea]

21. good one mobuto

next???

[0007]

87. Thank you JuliLyn, for the real truth.

[RedCloud]

181. Another good point!

Now why should cubanos have such a powerful voice in the USA? They are the minority. Why don't we have the overwhelming majority of Spanish speakers, the MEXICANS, having a powerful say so? Not conservative enough?

[Freddie Stubbs]

200. The Miami Herald also covered this

Chávez's image shifts from oddity to abuser


Venezuela's leftist President Hugo Chávez made a major tactical mistake last week, which may prove more damaging to him than having recently called President Bush an ''illegitimate president:'' he allowed himself to be seen by the world as a violator of human rights.

Until now, Chávez -- the former army coup plotter who was elected in 1998 and has ruled with an increasingly strong hand -- was seen by most countries and some U.S. officials as an eccentric but rather harmless demagogue. Watch what he does, not what he says, foreign diplomats said, quoting a recent U.S. ambassador to Venezuela.

It isn't a secret to foreign diplomats that Chávez is running a militarized government -- with 57 armed forces officers in top government jobs -- and bends the law at will. But while he maintained the formalities of democratic rule, it was easy for people to look the other way.

But that may have changed last week when Chávez's National Guard engaged in torture, beatings and possibly several killings in clashes with tens of thousands of oppositionists who were protesting the government's refusal to recognize a key portion of the 3.4 million signatures on petitions to recall him.

more: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/andres_oppenheimer/8125751.htm

[Judi Lynn]

206. People who are familiar with the unbalanced Miami Herald

in its current Cuban "exile" pandering state are aware that Andres Oppenheimer is a chronically loud right-wing voice.

Bush’s inarticulate pronouncements and ham-fisted machinations in the year since 9-11 have all but wiped out any goodwill forthcoming from Latin America towards the northern behemoth. Washington’s popularity has plummeted to rock-bottom all the way from Tijuana to Tierra del Fuego. Right-wing Miami Herald columnist Andres Oppenheimer cites recent polls stating that more Argentines despise the United States than admire it. The Bush administration’s studied posture of disinterest in Argentina’s economic collapse and the recent declassification of documents establishing that Washington was complicit in 35,000 Dirty War deaths and disappearances in that country, have made the Yankees Public Enemy No.1 on the streets of Buenos Aires.
(snip)

http://www.entremundos.org/mainFrame.htm?http://www.entremundos.org/Newspaper/Archive/Issue9/US%20abroad.htm~contents

You missed this thread on the Miami Herald's current state of credibility:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=405838#406325

[Zhade]

29. That's an opposition website run by ProVeO. Hardly a credible source.

Nice try.

[bemildred]

33. I dunno.

It's been three days, or something like that,
and if you google it, it shows up in two places,
Miami Herald and Vcrisis. I just wonder why
it hasn't been picked up elsewhere yet.

[windansea]

34. see post 17

Miami Herald interviewed the guy

nice try...next??

[bemildred]

35. I have already read it.

It has nothing to do with what I said.

[windansea]

40. my reply was to post 29

:)

[bemildred]

42. A pity. nt

[0007]

207. LOL!!

[Zhade]

128. Keep relying on your rightwing and corporate media sources.

You won't convince me, because I know that you are wrong. As do quite a few other people. You're still wasting everyone's time.

But then, maybe that's your whole objective.

[Freddie Stubbs]

202. The Miami Herald also reported this

Chávez's image shifts from oddity to abuser


Venezuela's leftist President Hugo Chávez made a major tactical mistake last week, which may prove more damaging to him than having recently called President Bush an ''illegitimate president:'' he allowed himself to be seen by the world as a violator of human rights.

Until now, Chávez -- the former army coup plotter who was elected in 1998 and has ruled with an increasingly strong hand -- was seen by most countries and some U.S. officials as an eccentric but rather harmless demagogue. Watch what he does, not what he says, foreign diplomats said, quoting a recent U.S. ambassador to Venezuela.

It isn't a secret to foreign diplomats that Chávez is running a militarized government -- with 57 armed forces officers in top government jobs -- and bends the law at will. But while he maintained the formalities of democratic rule, it was easy for people to look the other way.

But that may have changed last week when Chávez's National Guard engaged in torture, beatings and possibly several killings in clashes with tens of thousands of oppositionists who were protesting the government's refusal to recognize a key portion of the 3.4 million signatures on petitions to recall him.

more: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/andres_oppenheimer/8125751.htm

[Ms. Clio]

39. Isn't it interesting

The same people who supported the Haiti coup also are anti-Chavez, and some of them were pro Iraq war, then melted away for a couple of months, only to return with more typical RW talking points.

I don't think most of us are fooled, though.

[Darranar]

41. If and when Human Rights Watch says something about it...

I'll be more inclined to believe this.

[mobuto]

46. Human Rights Watch HAS said something about it

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/05/venezu8072.htm

[Darranar]

47. That didn't mention THIS PARTICULAR EVENT.

[mobuto]

51. HRW hasn't updated their website since Friday

Maybe you should take it up with their lazy webmaster for not wanting to work weekends. Its hard to keep up with all the Chavista violence.

[Dogmudgeon]

57. Here's an idea

Since we know that Chavez, his opposition, and our very own Executive Branch are less than forthcoming with the truth, why not let organizations like Amnesty International and the International Red Cross look into it?

I'm not ready to take sides in this. Venezuela, as a nation, seems to be caught between a pit bull and a wolverine. If Sr. Izcaray was tortured, he has my sympathies; if he's lying, that would change things.

It's similar to the chaos in Haiti. Who was/is worse, Aristide or the Maximum Commander who deposed him? Yeah, Aristide was a good guy for a while, but so were Putin and Kabila and even Saddam.

It's episodes like these that call for a popular, respected, dependable arbiter of international law. We (as in the USA) used to have that role; now, we cross our fingers and hope that the UN will do the job. But if anybody gets my vote, it's the poor people in the countries under mismanagement. They deserve better.

--bkl

[mobuto]

61. Kabila was a good guy?

I always thought he was just the anti-Mobutu. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Amnesty and HRW don't have the resources to investigate each and every event. They don't have subpoena power, they don't have the funding, etc. I'm not sure what a satisfactory solution would be. But I agree entirely - neither the opposition nor the Government is at all trustworthy, and both have used violence to effect their political goals.

[Vladimir]

65. But the poor people love Chavez

The poor people absolutely have my solidarity, which is exactly why I back Chavez. It never ceases to infuriate me (not directed personally at you) how people will hold third world governments to a much higher standerd of account than their own.

When the poor, hungry and opressed are fighting the rich, and when they percieve the developed world to be against them, then shit will happen. What should amaze people is how restrained Chavez has been in the face of all this.

V

[mobuto]

67. Did you support Juan Peron then?

The poor are not always right.

BTW, I do not hold third world governments to higher standards. I'd be pretty pissed off if Bush's henchmen tortured Leonard Slatkin.

[Vladimir]

72. Don't know nearly enough

about Peron to comment. And yeah, the poor aren't always right. But in a class war, the working class is in fact always right, and what is going on in Venezuela is a class war.

When we are talking about a democracy and the poor constitute 80% of the population, and were opressed for decades by the now ex-ruling class, I find it entirely understandable if their fuse snaps ocassionaly. They see the redistribution they want and deserve blocked at every turn by those unwilling to give up some of their wealth to allow others to live better. What do you expect them to do, sit on their hands while their government is chosen for them and they are given a BigMac voucher?

V

[mobuto]

74. No it isn't understandable

There just is no excuse for political violence. The Chavistas are already in power - the torture and killing of opponents is just thuggery.

I dispute your assertion that this is a class war. This is a case where Mr. Chavez is attempting to take power for himself and his allies from the older oligarchies - he's cynically using the poor as pawns in this effort. The leader of a military coup attempt isn't so much trying to help the people as he is trying to replace one group of oligarchs with another.

And I suggest you read up on Peron. You'll find it was exactly the same thing - a fascist demagogue manipulating the poor to gain power and wealth, at the expense of the country as a whole, the middle class, and, in the long run, the poor as well.

[Vladimir]

81. I might well read up on Peron

If I find any time from my bloody work, it 00:20am here and I'm still working (god a PhD is a bitch).

I do think, on all currently available evidence, that this is a class war (with a racial element in that the ex-ruling class was mainly white). Bear in mind, I am not pretending Chavez or anyone is a shrinking violet. I am just saying that expecting no violence in this sitation is... well frankly a bit fanciful. 8 dead in a week of clashes and protests is hardly a bloody repression IMO.

When we look at human rights abuses, we are all quick to focus on beatings and killings. But how do you measure the abuse of their human rights that gays and ethnic minorities suffer every day of their life in the western world? I think people clean their own house up before having a go at others. You don't. Differing opinions are what makes life fun...

V

[mobuto]

93. Gays and ethnic minorities certainly do suffer

discrimination in the Western World. But I think its just a tad absurd to compare their lot to those living under third-world dictatorships.

[Vladimir]

155. A very debatable point actually

First of all it depends on which third world. Blacks in America versus the average Cuban isn't nearly as clear cut as it may seem for example (living standards aside - that comparsion I was never trying to make). Although, even on living standards - if you get sick in Cuba, you get treated. So its not at all obvious.

Secondly, I am not saying that we shouldn't be outraged at abuses in the third world, or anywhere else. But to pretend we can show "them" the way is disingenuous IMO. The West is very good at converting overt suffering, i.e. beating/murder/torture into a more insiduous form of suffering, where entire swathes of society are made to feel worthless. Why do you think so many people in the West are on Prozac?

V

[mobuto]

160. Again, I'll gladly take Prozac

if in exchange I don't have to worry about being beaten to death by government thugs.

Look, I think you just set the standard for intervention too high. The developed western democracies are very oftentimes in a position to help. Are they perfect? Far from it. But they've stumbled upon a system, liberal social democracy, which seems to offer the greatest good for the greatest number. It has worked decently in the past, certainly better than any other system of government, and it guarantees to the people the right to determine their own destiny. Do they always act on that right? No. But they have it. Yes The West has many problems but there are also degrees of problems.

Are some Americans worse off than some Cubans? I'll believe that - to a point. Certainly a lot of Americans don't have access to the same quality of medical care that a lot of Cubans receive. But then Cubans don't get the care that French citizens get. You seem to underestimate the power and purpose of self-determination and individual rights, something that no Cuban citizen enjoys.

[Vladimir]

162. Actually Cubans have a lot of rights

when it comes to the political process. At the local level, certainly, decision making is carried in a form of democracy. And I wouldn't be so quick to overestimate the individual rights - what good is the freedom to speak if you can't change anything?

As for the "Liberal Democracies", they work so well because of their inflated living standards, disguistingly kept high by exploititng the third world. That allows them to hide the many ways in which they disenfranchise and opress people. And that is why interventionism is never about building a genuine democracy - one where the third world workers might be able to demand a decent living wage for example.

V

[mobuto]

167. What good is the freedom to speak?

First of all I'm glad you don't repeat the bizarre canard of a few Castro apologists on DU who insist that Cuba is a democracy from top to bottom.

I think individual rights are extremely important, because they limit the power of the state to oppress the people. I think we see how important freedom of speech is where its denied. The Soviet Union, for example, or increasingly, in modern Russia, where the opposition media where it exists is routinely repressed as the state turns to one-man rule. Freedom of speech inherently carries with it the power to change things - even if that power isn't exercised. You can legitimately complain about voter apathy in the United States, for example, but Americans certainly have the ability to change the system if they were mobilized and motivated to. Cubans don't have the luxury of that power, except at very local levels.

As for the "Liberal Democracies", they work so well because of their inflated living standards, disguistingly kept high by exploititng the third world.

Who exploits whom? If the third world doesn't want Western jobs, they can send them away. Ask the Chinese if they feel exploited - if they want to close down all the Western factories. I think you'll be surprised by the response, even if you go to the poorest, worst-run and most "oppressive" factory around. Because at its worst, globalization still provides jobs to people who otherwise wouldn't have them. It allows them to feed their families and afford housing and maybe have a little dignity. Should exploitative practices be cracked down on? Of course. But that avoids the real issue, that globalization provides a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for some of the poorest people in the world. You talk about a living wage, but you forget that never does globalization reduce existing wages. You think a Chinese farmer would leave his mulberry grove to work in a factory for less than he was making before?

[Vladimir]

169. Of course individual rights

are important, but they are largely a fantasy. It isn't about voter apathy - its about a system that perpetually undereducates and misguides people in order to maintain the status quo. Under those circumstrances, when apathy is institutionalized, constitutional rights cease to have any meaning. That does not mean that I wouldn't prefer Cuba to be more like Venezuela (where 500,000 can march in the streets, which is more of a right than Londoners had when GWB came to visit a few months ago) in terms of democarcy and human rights, of course I would. But what is happening in Venezuela now is a perfect example of what happens when the 3rd world plays (in many ways) by 1st world rules - the bourgeosie exploit the system.

As for exploitation, I agree that a job is better than no job. Where I disagree with you is that you think exploitative conditions are a transient problem. I think they are endemic to the enterprise in question.

V

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

184. Are you fucking kidding me?

"Ask the Chinese if they feel exploited - if they want to close down all the Western factories."
I encourage you to ask Chinese and Indian children if they feel exploited in those great sweatshops. Walmart alone has over 5000 sweatshops in China. This is basically slave labor. I dare you to find that anywhere in Cuba. Ask the people in Tanzania buried alive to make way for Barrick Gold mining how they feel about your wonderful Globalization. Maybe one of the survivors of the Bhopal tragedy. Maybe the ones that can still speak will tell you how much they love Union Carbide. Don't pretend for a second that our western leaders don't know what's up. The Clintons and Kerrys are anything but stupid. But they all have to answer to a higher power. These are not just exceptions. This shit happens all the time in the "third world". You're just not supposed to know about it. To pretend we're doing these people any favors is very disingenuous. Because you know damn well that between Europe and the US the very least owe these people a huge debt of gratitude for putting up with our bullshit. How so many still somehow like us around the world truly boggles the mind. Please don't tell me "we're not perfect". I don't know of anyone who demands perfection of any human being or institution. That's the easy way out of any discussion of substance. If I go over to your house beat the shit out of you, burn it down, take your car and leave you $20 dollars on the table for your trouble. Doesn't make imperfect it makes me an asshole and a criminal. That my friend is a metaphor of what WE do to others in their respective homelands. Do the "fringe lefty commies" have all the answers? No, but they at least can identify the problem and are asking the right questions which are the first steps to fixing anything. I see you also refer to Chavez as a "fascist something" or other in another one of your enlightening posts. If the father of modern fascism Benito Mussolini refers to fascism as corporatism. Who am I to argue with Il Duce about his pet projects. Then by definition our government is being run by true fascists. Like him or not that is the opposite of what Pres. Chavez is trying to accomplish. As I told a bunch of frothing at the mouth Venezuelan acquaintances of mine they can't have it both ways. They complain Chavez has done nothing for the country. But how can they say that when the very same people that argue that. Scoff at every reform he has tried to implement. They accused him of giving hand outs to a bunch of of lazy good for nothing moochers (their words paraphrased from the original Spanish). This "opposition" at the very least is the Venezuelan wing of the Republican party. Like the guy or not he does not have the same "Let them eat bread" attitude that all of my Venezuelan friends and acquaintances have shown me over the years. Also all of them and their US backers stay conspicuously silent when I ask them about what the alternative should be. Funny isn't it. We had our violent revolution and a civil war to consolidate the country many years ago. All throughout the 20th century the USA has kept the rest of us in Latin America to do the same. I can only hop for peaceful spiritual and mental revolutions but it is easier said than done. As I hope you or I would. I can only hope Pres. Chavez chooses the higher ground instead of the road used by his detractors. After all, who started shooting who in the head here to accomplish their goals? If he is guilty let him be judged. But to quote a certain Underdeveloped Primate in the White Collar House. Make no mistake. The media that lies to us about Bill and Hilary's criminality and overall sexual perversion is the same one that feeds us disinformation on Pres. Chavez and others that don't toe the line. I'll take Greg Palast's and Al Giordano's word over a media whore or politician (another kind of whore) any day. It is one thing to praise the west when it needs to be praised. It is another to make excuses for Imperial greed and colonialism.

[mobuto]

192. Learn to use paragraphs, please!

DU should not be an exercise in migraine studies.

I have no idea why you think I'd be in favor of Bhopal or slave labor or anything of the kind. If you read my posts, you'd see that my support for free trade is contigent on defining a lack of adequate worker and environmental protections as an unfair trade practice, sanctionable under the WTO.

The Clintons and Kerrys are anything but stupid. But they all have to answer to a higher power.

When God is done judging Bill Clinton, maybe He can find a little time to judge your lack of adequate indentation.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mobuto]

196. Not that its any of your business

but I'm a hell of a lot more liberal than most of the posters on this thread including, if I had to guess, yourself. I just don't hide behind a simplistic veneer of revolutionary rhetoric.

You're the one who implied we're just so good helping those poor Chinese and "Globalization" is good.

Yup. Real wages, the standard of living, per capita income, GDP, have all soared in China in the last twenty years. Ask any Chinese citizen whether they'd like a return to Gang-of-Four era policies and you'll be surprised. Is China a model state? No. But it has benefited enormously from globalization.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

199. You said it not me.

"Ask the Chinese if they feel exploited - if they want to close down all the Western factories."

The government and their rich western partners have truly benefited enormously, period.

"I just don't hide behind a simplistic veneer of revolutionary rhetoric."

No you use simplistic Neo-liberal rhetoric. Which is worse. But hey whatever kid. I'm not the only one to point out your constant defense of the most blatant imperialist practices the west engages in. I guess you're right it is none of my business. It's your problem. For someone who constantly insults others you sure .....Never mind it's just going to get deleted.

[mobuto]

208. Most blatant imperialist policies?

Which ones are they?

The government and their rich western partners have truly benefited enormously, period.

Agreed.

Now explain to me why Chinese farmers leave their fields and move to the cities if not for better pay. Who's forcing them to work in factories?

[Vladimir]

210. Actually, on a technical point

The World Bank freely admits to having little reliable data on China in terms of standard of living and the purchasing power parity, so I don't know how you can really claim your last paragraph.

See:
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/twe287c.htm

Or for the full paper:
http://www.columbia.edu/~sr793/povpop.pdf

V

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

195. who are you to say who God is going to judge

you got some Pat Robertson inside connection?

[mobuto]

197. It was an ironic response to Smirky

The Clintons and Kerrys are anything but stupid. But they all have to answer to a higher power. These are not just exceptions.

For the record, I don't honestly believe Smirky's going to spend time in Purgatory for his/her/its virtually unreadable rant. But then, whom am I to know?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

198. I swear I always miss Irony and sarcasm in the forums

I wish I wasn't so damned verbal! I assume everyone here is deadly serious. I was hoping you'd say that you did have a line to God. That would be more interesting than alot of this back and forth between people who's opinions aren't going to change.

[mobuto]

205. It'd be nice if I did

I could be even more certain of my positions than I already am.

Alas...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

201. Aaahhh, yes the higher power of corporations.

You know the power behind the throne. Being at work only allows time to write long ass replies. It doesn't allow for long ass replies and thinking of paragraph and sentence structure. Tell you what next time don't read it. It will also save me the time to read all the weak replies anyway.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

204. Fuck it. I think this shit has gotten personal enough.

I'll take my share of the blame for that. But I do stand by the long ass unindented paragraph. What can I say? I'm as stubborn as I am handsome and humble.

[AP]

96. This is definitely a class war. And Chavez is fighting fascist neoliberal-

ism, by the way.

[mobuto]

104. Oh really?

And all this time, I thought Chavez was a fascist neoliberal. Apparently fascist neoliberals are just fine and dandy, just so long as they mouth populist rhetoric and bad-mouth the United States.

[Vladimir]

133. Chavez a neoliberal???!!

You can accuse Chavez of many things. But being a neoliberal? As in the European sense of the word, a fiscal liberal, i.e. pro free market, etc. How does that work?

V

[mobuto]

141. Yup

Chavez is just not a George W. Bush neoliberal. Remember he squealed the loudest when Bush erected protectionist steel tariffs, because they hurt the Venezuelan steel industry. Cuts both ways, buddy.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

144. Junior is a "neoliberal"???....

Since when do rightwinger NeoCons get lumped into the liberal side of the spectrum?

Help the board understand that, mobuto.

[mobuto]

153. Do you know what "neoliberal" means?

Neoliberalism has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism - it means you support ending protectionist tariffs and other restrictions on free trade. Whether Bush is actually a neoliberal is open to debate, given his apparent contempt for WTO rulings, but his rhetoric certainly is.

[AP]

147. THAT's your definition of neoliberalism?

Lord.

[Vladimir]

149. Well of course he bloody did!

The US spends the entire time forcing other countries to sign up to shitty WTO agreements and then violates them as it pleases. But the third world is meant to bow down and kiss the ring? Third World countries are entitled to acts of self-preservation, even if they mean ocassionally espousing the free market.

BTW., I don't have as much of a problem with the free market as you may think. I just find it a misnomer seeing as it actively takes power away from the workers and places it in the hands of CEOs and companies. European socialists actively support the free market where it will help the third world - i.e. in demanding that the disguisting agricultural subsidies to European farmers be done away with. But a neoliberal, in the European sense, is someone who supports the free market regardless of context.

V

[mobuto]

157. If it makes you feel better, I think the tariffs were stupid as well

I'm not a fan of American hypocrisy, especially of the Bush variety. What you don't seem to understand is that free trade has meant enormous benefits for the third world. Chavez understands that, despite his rhetoric to the contrary. That's why he's so anxious to export oil, steel and other commodities, tariff-free, to the Colossus of the North.

Now if you want to talk about establishing worker and environmental protections, I'm with you all the way.

I just find it a misnomer seeing as it actively takes power away from the workers and places it in the hands of CEOs and companies.

Unless you're talking about a pure socialist state in which the workers control the means of production (a state which exists nowhere on this planet), the workers don't have much in the way of power to begin with anyway. The solution to that is simple - establish labor unions, legislate worker protections, and crack down on unfair trade practices at the WTO level. But it isn't to erect protectionist trade barriers which have the effect of protecting some jobs in the extreme short-term, but of destroying the economy in the long-run.

The best example I can think of is, again, Argentina. Argentina wanted to boost its industry, so it erected tariffs that effectively cut out foreign imports of many products. Argentina's car industry was, for example, saved. But the result of that didn't help Argentines. Cars were far more expensive than they were elsewhere in Latin America and, well, they were terrible. Just about the only cars you could get were domestically-built 1960 model year Ford Falcons, which they continued to produce until the late 1980s. The cost of subsidizing the car industry nearly bankrupted the country, and Argentina's real strength, its agricultural sector, suffered as other countries imposed retaliatory tariffs. Protectionism just doesn't work.

[Vladimir]

158. And I'm not advocating protectionism

My point was about context. A neoliberal preaches free trade outside all context. The correct position, IMO, is to accept or reject tariffs based on the individual circumstances in question.

As for socialism, I am a socialist. And obviously I am talking about worker's rights. But I think the WTO's record on this issue is absurdly poor (although, pardoxically, I am dubious as to how much better billateral agreements would be). I tend to think that the only way workers rights will be protected is when the Third World begins presenting a genuinely united front to the "Western Democracies".

V

[mobuto]

163. Fair enough

A neoliberal preaches free trade outside all context. The correct position, IMO, is to accept or reject tariffs based on the individual circumstances in question.

But the question is, of course, how do you do that? When are tariffs justified, except as retaliation for unfair trade practices?

But I think the WTO's record on this issue is absurdly poor

Agreed. But it doesn't have to be. The US and the other democracies certainly have the power to shape the WTO in their image. And a progressive Democratic Administration under John Kerry would emphasize different priorities.

I tend to think that the only way workers rights will be protected is when the Third World begins presenting a genuinely united front to the "Western Democracies".

That's where we disagree. The Third World needs the Western Democracies a lot more than the Western Democracies need the Third World. All the Third World offers is slightly cheaper prices for US consumers, which certainly helps the American economy but doesn't drive it. Third World nations are absolutely dependent on capital and technology from the West which they can only get through trade. Look at South Korea. Just a few decades ago, it was a terribly poor, third-world dictatorship. Today its a developed democracy. Why? Largely because they welcomed trade when other countries eyed it with suspicion. Or look at China and India. China welcomed free trade twenty-five years ago, whereas India's been open for less than a decade. So while China's econony has expanded enormously, India's is still largely mired in grinding poverty.

[Vladimir]

165. South Korea

was a buffer zone for the US during the cold war. Lets not pretend it has any relation whatsoever to spreading democracy to the Thrid World.

As for the rest, I ain't an economist, and I am in no way qualified to judge about when tarriffs should and shoudln't be imposed. But we agree on the prinicle that tarriffs have to be looked at in context, so that is something.

V

P.S. Britain's economy has been doing fantastically for the last 7 years, but worker's rights are at an all time low (minimum wage aside). A strong economy does not correlate to workers being better off.

[mobuto]

168. South Korea was a buffer zone for the US

And for much of that time, it had a closed economy and was ruled by a dictator. But it opened its economy after US pressure, and democratized. And I think you'll agree its done quite well by globalization, the World Bank, and the IMF.

But we agree on the prinicle that tarriffs have to be looked at in context, so that is something.

Again I don't know if we're disagreeing or not. I think that as a rule tariffs are bad. The only point where they make sense - and here even the staunchest proponent of free trade would agree with me in general, if not in the details - is that they're only justified in retaliation for certain unfair trade practices. The only place where Neoliberal X and I would probably disagree is how we'd define "unfair practices" - I'd probably place a greater emphasis than she on worker and environmental protections.

Britain's economy has been doing fantastically for the last 7 years, but worker's rights are at an all time low (minimum wage aside). A strong economy does not correlate to workers being better off.

Don't get me started on the mess that is the UK.

[Vladimir]

170. You can have South Korea for the moment

while I go and learn about why you are wrong. :) But more seriously, look at the pattern across Africa. Open up your economy, allow Western businisses to buy up your resources, and then have job creation, yes, but at the price that you are no longer your own master. Often the state is entirely right to protect an industry from being bought up in cut-price deals by corporations from rich countries.

V

[mobuto]

173. Fair enough

Except I don't think Africa does justice to your argument. The problem with Africa isn't that Western businesses have screwed things up, so much as government have. Almost without exception, since independence, Sub-Saharan Africa has been run by kleptocrats, incompetents and butchers. You can very legitimately blame much of that on the European colonialists, but you can't really blame it on Western corporations. In fact the biggest hope for many countries comes not from national governments, but from super-national entities like the AU.

[Vladimir]

174. Kleptocrats, incompetents, butchers

for the most part fuelled by the West and the arms industry in general.

I agree on the super national entities, which brings me back to my previous point - when the third world unites, justice will be done.

V

[AP]

146. That makes no sense.

[Just Me]

70. You really should consider a job as a "spokesperson"!!!

Your clarity is admirable. Humanity seriously needs people like you!!!

:bounce:

I am very grateful for your presence on this board. :hi:

[Vladimir]

73. Thanks mate

:hi: You're too kind. Humanity needs us all... so much work so little bleeding time.

:toast:

V

[Tinoire]

78. 2 points BKL

According to Chomsky and from what I've observed with my own eyes AI has been caught being less than forthcoming about the truth in the past. My second point is related to the first where I try to give them all benefit of the doubt because theur aims are nobel.

Where do these organizations get their information? You take a country like Haiti where the poor speak a langauge AI doesn't. Where does AI get its Creole/English interpreters? From the elite, the business community and the diaspora any of whom are Duvalierists who flew from the island at the same time Baby Doc did.

10 years ago, I was involved in translating some very sensitive Haitian documents which I am sure, now that I'm older and wiser, were stolen to be exploited by the same people who fromented this coup. Without going into any details, let me just say that there were 2 of us translating this document (1/2 to each) because they had so few linguists. My cohort was a pro-Duvalierist who deliberately misinterpreted many passages. I had to demand his/her portions be re-translated by 2 independent translators brought on at great cost. The difference between the translation that person was trying to hood-wink everyone with and ours was frightening.

Other than that I do agree- just wanted to point out those limitations.

[mobuto]

80. Attack the human rights organizations all you want

but Human Rights Watch and Amnesty are far-and-away the least biased people out there.

And as for your translation anecdote, I'm not sure I understand your concern - the language of Venezuela is Spanish and I find it somewhat hard to believe that there is a shortage of unbiased Spanish-language speakers out there.

[Tinoire]

85. Who the hell is attacking? I'm not surprised you don't understand

I'm not surprised you don't understand the point. It's not the first time but then again, I should be more charitable. I'm so used to dealing with informed DUers that I tend to forget that not everyone here knows what they're talking about.

The number of languages listed for Venezuela is 42. Of those, 40 are living languages and 2 are extinct.

AKAWAIO A few in Venezuela. Bolivar State. Alternate names: ACEWAIO, AKAWAI, ACAWAYO, ACAHUAYO, WAICÁ. Classification: Carib, Northern, East-West Guiana, Macushi-Kapon, Kapon.
More information.

ARAWAK A few in Venezuela. Coastal area near Guyana, Delta Amacuro. Alternate names: AROWAK, LOKONO. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Caribbean.
More information.

ARUTANI 5 speakers out of a population of up to 30 in Venezuela (1977 Migliazza). Below the Sape of the Karum River area, Bolivar State, headwaters of the Paraqua and Uraricáa rivers. Alternate names: AUAQUÉ, AUAKE, AWAKÉ, URUAK, URUTANI, AOAQUI, OEWAKU. Classification: Arutani-Sape. Nearly extinct.
More information.

BANIWA 407 in Venezuela (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). Amazonas, between the Curipaco and the Guarequena, along the Colombian border. Alternate names: BANIUA DO IÇANA, MANIBA, BANIVA, BANIBA. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Inland.
More information.

BARÉ A few speakers in Venezuela, perhaps 238 in the ethnic group (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). Colombian border in extreme southwest, Amazonas, along the upper Rio Negro from Brazil-Venezuela border to the Casiquiare Canal, Maroa. Alternate names: BARAWANA, BARAUNA, BARAUANA, IHINI, ARIHINI, MALDAVACA, CUNIPUSANA, YAVITA, MITUA. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Inland. Nearly extinct.
More information.

CARIB 4,000 to 5,000 in Venezuela (1978 J.C. Mosonyi). Population total all countries 10,000 (1991). Alternate names: CARIBE, CARIÑA, KALIHNA, KALINYA, GALIBI. Dialects: TABAJARI, CHAYMA (CHAIMA, SAYMA, WARAPICHE, GUAGA-TAGARE). Classification: Carib, Northern, Galibi.
More information.

CUIBA 650 in Venezuela (1995 SIL). Apure Division. Alternate names: CUIVA. Dialects: CHIRICOA, AMARUWA (AMORUA), MASIGUARE, SIRIPU, YARAHUURAXI-CAPANAPARA, MELLA, PTAMO, SICUANE (SICUARI). Classification: Guahiban.
More information.

CURRIPACO 210 in Venezuela (1970 census). Amazonas. Alternate names: CURIPACO, KURIPAKO, KURRIPAKO. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Inland.
More information.

GERMAN, COLONIA TOVAR Alternate names: ALEMÁN COLONEIRO. Classification: Indo-European, Germanic, West, High German, German, Upper German, Alemannic.
More information.

GUAHIBO 5,000 in Venezuela. Orinoco River from Caicaro de Orinoco on the upper Orinoco, Amazonas and Apure states. Alternate names: GUAJIBO, WAHIBO. Classification: Guahiban.
More information.

GUAREQUENA 367 in Venezuela. Population total both countries 705. Alternate names: GUAREKENA, AREQUENA, UREQUEMA, UEREQUEMA, WAREKENA. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Inland.
More information.

JAPRERÍA 80 (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). Northern region of Sierra de Perija, Zulia State. Alternate names: YAPRERÍA. Classification: Carib, Northern, Coastal.
More information.

MACUSHI 600 in Venezuela. Eastern border area. Alternate names: MAKUXI, MAKUSHI, TEWEYA. Classification: Carib, Northern, East-West Guiana, Macushi-Kapon, Macushi.
More information.

MANDAHUACA 3,000 in Venezuela (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). Population total both countries 3,000. Alternate names: MANDAUACA, MANDAWAKA, IHINI, ARIHINI, MALDAVACA, CUNIPUSANA, YAVITA, MITUA. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Inland.
More information.

MAPOYO 2 speakers out of 120 population (1977 Migliazza). Suapure River, 100 kms. north of La Urbana, Amazonas. Alternate names: MAPAYO, MAPOYE, MOPOI, NEPOYE, WANAI. Classification: Carib, Northern, Western Guiana. Nearly extinct.
More information.

MAQUIRITARI 4,970 in Venezuela (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). Population total both countries 5,240. Alternate names: MAIONGONG, MAQUIRITARE, YEKUANA, DE'CUANA, YE'CUANA, MAQUIRITAI, SOTO, CUNUANA, PAWANA. Classification: Carib, Southern, Southern Guiana.
More information.

MOTILÓN 850 in Venezuela (1980 Seely). Venezuelan and Colombian border, Zulia State. Alternate names: MOTILONE, BARÍ. Classification: Chibchan, Motilon.
More information.

MUTÚS 200 or more (1977 Merrill Seely). Town of Mutús, a little above Pueblo Llano, Barinas State. Alternate names: LOCO, MUTÚ. Classification: Unclassified.
More information.

NHENGATU 2,000 in Venezuela (1987 Mosonyi). Alternate names: YERAL, GERAL, WAENGATU, MODERN TUPI. Classification: Tupi, Tupi-Guarani, Tupi (III).
More information.

NINAM 100 in Venezuela. Karun and Paragua rivers, Bolivar State. Alternate names: YANAM, XIRIANA. Dialects: NORTHERN NINAM, SOUTHERN NINAM. Classification: Yanomam.
More information.

PANARE 1,200 in 20 or more villages. 150 mile perimeter south of Caicaro de Orinoco basin of the Cuchivero River; Bolivar State. Two groups: jungle and highland. Alternate names: PANARI, ABIRA, EYE. Classification: Carib, Northern, Western Guiana.
More information.

PARAUJANO 20 or fewer speakers out of 4,306 population (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). Lake Maracaibo, near Guajiro, Zulia State. Alternate names: PARAHUJANO. Dialects: ALILE, TOA. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Caribbean. Nearly extinct.
More information.

PEMON 4,850 Pemon in Venezuela. Population total all countries 6,004. Alternate names: PEMONG. Dialects: CAMARACOTO, TAUREPAN (TAULIPANG), ARECUNA (ARICUNA, AREKUNA, JARICUNA, PEMON, DAIGOK, POTSAWUGOK, PISHAUCO, PURUCOTO, KAMARAGAKOK). Classification: Carib, Northern, East-West Guiana, Macushi-Kapon, Kapon.
More information.

PIAPOCO 99 in Venezuela (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). Area of San Fernando de Atapapo, Amazonas along the Orinoco. Alternate names: DZAZE. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Inland.
More information.

PIAROA 12,000 including 130 Maco (1987 UBS). Population total both countries 12,000. Alternate names: KUAKUA, GUAGUA, QUAQUA. Dialects: MACO (MAKO, ITOTO), PIAROA. Classification: Salivan.
More information.

PUINAVE 240 in Venezuela (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). Amazonas. Alternate names: PUINARE. Classification: Language Isolate.
More information.

SÁLIBA 250 in Venezuela (1991 Adelaar). Cedoño Department. Alternate names: SÁLIVA. Classification: Salivan.
More information.

SANUMÁ 1,000 to 4,000 in Venezuela (1976 UFM). Caura and Ervato-Ventuari rivers. Alternate names: TSANUMA, SANEMA, GUAIKA, SAMATARI, SAMATALI, XAMATARI, CHIRICHANO. Classification: Yanomam.
More information.

SAPÉ 5 speakers out of a population of fewer than 25 (1977 Migliazza). 3 small settlements on Paragua and Karuna rivers. Alternate names: KARIANA, KALIÁNA, CALIANA, CHIRICHANO. Classification: Arutani-Sape. Nearly extinct.
More information.

SIKIANA Alternate names: SIKIÁNA, SHIKIANA, CHIQUIANA, CHIKENA, CHIQUENA. Classification: Carib, Northern, East-West Guiana, Waiwai, Sikiana.
More information.

SPANISH 21,480,000 in Venezuela (1995 estimate). Classification: Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Ibero-Romance, West Iberian, Castilian.
More information.

TUNEBO, CENTRAL A few speakers in Venezuela discovered by Roberto Lizarralde a few years ago. Apure State. Classification: Chibchan, Chibchan Proper, Tunebo.
More information.

WARAO 18,000 in Venezuela (1993 UBS). Population total all countries 18,000. Alternate names: GUARAUNO, GUARAO, WARRAU. Classification: Language Isolate.
More information.

WAYUU 170,000 in Venezuela (1995 SIL). Zulia State, western, Guajira Peninsula. Alternate names: GUAJIRO, GUAJIRA, GOAJIRO. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Caribbean.
More information.

YABARANA 20 pure Yabarana and 34 mixed with Piaroa and Macú (1977 Migliazza). 64 (1975 Gaceta Indigenista). North central, Nueva Esparta, area of the Manapiare River basin above the village of San Juan de Manapiare. Amazonas. Alternate names: YAUARANA. Dialects: CURASICANA, WOKIARE (UAIQUIARE, GUAYQUERI). Classification: Carib, Northern, Western Guiana. Nearly extinct.
More information.

YANOMAMÖ 12,000 to 14,000 in Venezuela (1991 AP). Population total both countries 13,500 to 16,000. Alternate names: YANOMAME, YANOMAMI, GUAICA, GUAHARIBO, GUAJARIBO. Dialects: EASTERN YANOMAMI (PARIMA), WESTERN YANOMAMI (PADAMO-ORINOCO), COBARI (KOBALI, COBARIWA). Classification: Yanomam.
More information.

YARURO 2,000 to 3,000. Orinoco, Sinaruco, Meta, and Apure rivers, Amazonas and Apure states. Alternate names: LLARURO, YARURU, PUMÉ, YUAPÍN. Classification: Unclassified.
More information.

YUKPA 500. Areas adjacent to Colombia border, Zulia State. Alternate names: YUKO, YUCPA, YUPA, NORTHERN MOTILÓN. Dialects: YRAPA, RÍO NEGRO. Classification: Carib, Northern, Coastal.
More information.

YUWANA 300 (1970 census, Chicano). Central Venezuela. A northern group is in Bolivar Division on the Kaima River, a tributary of the Cuchivero River; an isolated southern group is in Amazonas on the Iguana, a tributary of the Asita River, and on the Parucito, a tributary of the Manapiare River. Alternate names: YOANA, YUANA, WARUWARU, CHICANO, CHIKANO, JOTI, HOTI. Classification: Unclassified.
More information.


Extinct languages
BANIVA Colombian border area. Alternate names: AVANI, AYANE, ABANE. Dialects: BANIVA, QUIRRUBA. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Inland.
More information.

YAVITERO Alternate names: PARAENE. Classification: Arawakan, Maipuran, Northern Maipuran, Inland.
More information.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Venezuela



http://www.ethnologue.com/show_map.asp?name=Venezuela&seq=1

[mobuto]

101. So tell me, great linguist

How many official Venezuelan Government documents are printed in Arawak?

This has got to be your most bizarre argument yet.

[Tinoire]

111. Being this stubborn can't possibly be natural. This MUST be an act

on your part. I refuse to believe that anyone at DU can't understand such a simple point but then again, you're a fan of the IMF & the World Bank and have a http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=22894&forum=DCForumID61&archive=yes#106">history of defending propaganda here.

Printed materials :eyes:

[mobuto]

151. You fail to answer the question

Arawak and your other languages may indeed be spoken in Venezuela but, unless my understanding of Venezuela is thoroughly flawed (which it may well be despite repeated visits there), Spanish is the daily language of business, government, the media and the overwhelming majority of the people, so your point about a lack of unbiased translators is not only moot, it borders on the absurd.

I refuse to believe that anyone at DU can't understand such a simple point but then again, you're a fan of the IMF & the World Bank and have a history of defending propaganda here

BTW, that article which you link to as an example of my supposed duplicity was confirmed by subsequent reporting. And as I argued in that thread, the fact that an incident is exploited for propaganda purposes is irrelevant to the question of whether the facts are correct. God knows your self-proclaimed reincarnation of Simon Bolivar exploits the missteps of his opponents for propagandistic purposes.

Now as long as we're documenting DU histories of defending "things," I might as well ask why you have such a long and ignominious history of defending and dismissing the atrocities committed by tin-pot third world dictators. But I'll refrain from that for now, in the interests of civility.

[AP]

95. Amnesty wouldn't show the documentary about Chavez because they were

afraid of violence.

They're assholes.

[mobuto]

103. Yup Amnesty International are "assholes"

Your name-calling reflects far more on yourself than it does on Amnesty International.

[AP]

142. Read up on their justifications for not showing the film. They caved

in to the oligarchs in Venezuela.

If you have a word more appropriate than assholes, please share it.

I think 'assholes' is an understatement.

[mobuto]

164. LOL

Amnesty International, which has never been scared of criticizing any government, least of all the United States', is now scared of not-criticizng the Venezuelan Government? Amnesty International, which has suffered persecution and harassment all over the world, is now afraid of the Venezuelan opposition?

You're not helping yourself out, nor are you making much sense in your attack on the most respected human rights organization in the world.

[ze_dscherman]

175. HRW and AI are subject to errors

I do regard both organisations as highly credible and unbiased, but they *are* highly dependend on the informations they get. So, if played right by clever propagandists, they may fall to false atrocity stories. Probably the most famous one is the "Kuwait Incubator Atrocity" - Amnesty International fell for this. And yes, Amnesty did check for a verification of the incubator story and could not verify it - after the war.

To put things in balance, just look for the atrocities reported by both HRW and AI from many other South American countries.

This is not to whitewash Chavez politics, I am too little informed about what acutally is going on there to judge myself. But it should remind you to take all information with at least a grain of salt. Especially if the only sources so far are right-wing, anti-Chavez rags.

[Judi Lynn]

63. I was going to look longer for just the right article on the Miami Herald

but I caught this honey and thought I should share it before I look further.

First of all, since I have to leave for some hours before getting back, I wanted to 'splain to actual DU readers, that the Miami Herald is run by a Cuban "exile" Alberto Ibarguen now.

At one time, the publisher, David Lawrence printed some material the Cuban "exile" leader, Jorge Mas Canosa didn't like, so they went ape-bleep, started phoning in death threats, bomb threats, taking out signs on buses, saying "I don't trust the Herald," and the really nasty part, smearing human feces all over newspaper vending machines around town. It got so bad, Lawrence and his wife both started checking their cars for bombs before driving them. David Lawrence finally left town.

Ibarguen's parents took him and moved to Puerto Rico when they left Cuba. He has been the publisher the Cuban "exile" extremists in Miami REALLY like. So does Bush. Ibarguen is also going to be, if he doesn't already (don't remember the date he'll be appointed) serving as head of our country's PBS stations. Isn't that great?

Here's a snip on what I've described:

The revelation that The Miami Herald and its Spanish-language counterpart, El Nuevo Herald, were in bed with Cuban leader Fidel Castro must have confounded the editors of the Cuban Communist party organ, Granma, since the Havana daily has repeatedly portrayed them as right-wing tools of the eternal CIA campaign against the thirty-three-year-old revolution.

Anywhere else, Mas Canosa's remarks might have been ignored. In the darker recesses of Miami's exile community, however, his words were clearly a call to arms. Within days Herald publisher David Lawrence, Jr., and two top editors received death threats. Anonymous callers phoned in bomb threats and Herald vending machines were jammed with gum and smeared with feces. Mas Canosa's Cuban American National Foundation quickly denied responsibility and condemned the hijinks, but Mas's words were highly inflammatory in a city where public red-baiting has served as a prelude to bombings and, in past years, murder.

That was in January, but editors at the Herald still feel besieged. Foundations ads saying "I don't believe The Herald" in Spanish are appearing on Dade County buses. Lawrence has heard that foundation people are sounding out advertisers over whether they would support a boycott -- a troubling prospect in a recession.

Coverage of the foundation and Cuba is now carefully scrutinized, Herald reports say. "There has been a watershed in how we operate with Cuban questions," says one staffer, who requested anonymity. "Before the campaign, Cuba issues were dealt with in a routine way."
(snip)

http://archives.cjr.org/year/92/3/miami.asp

Here's the interesting article I just found as I started a search for material on Alberto Ibarguen, and I'm putting the most interesting quote first:

“I knew Mr. Lawrence and he was a man of honor who respected the news business for what it is, a vital national resource that protects the people from tyranny and deceit,” Buchanan says. “Under Alberto Ibarguen, the paper has become nothing but a cash cow that values journalism about as much as it values a good deal on toilet paper for its bathrooms,” Buchanan says. “The paper is a disgrace to Miami, a vibrant and diverse city that the Herald misses on a daily basis. Tom Fiedler is a right-wing political hack, not an independently astute editor with no agenda.”

(snip)

Now the first of the story:

MIAMI HERALD EXECS FILE FALSE POLICE REPORT AGAINST BUSH-NAZI JOURNALIST Current rating: -6
by omar suarez
Email: jtwg (at) bellsouth.net (verified)
Phone: [phone] Oct 2003
Modified: 15 Oct 2003
Cited as “traitors to the truth” by history-making reporter in 60-year Bush-Nazi whitewash, the editor and publisher of flagship Knight-Ridder newspaper file a false police report and break the law
MIAMI – The reporter who broke the story of the 60-year media cover-up of the Bush family’s secret Nazi past in The New Hampshire Gazette, the oldest newspaper in America, has been falsely accused by top executives of The Miami Herald of making threats against the newspaper’s staff.
Mr. Buchanan has announced he will seek criminal charges against the two men for filing a false police report. “I will also disgrace them publicly, in print, for their roles as Nazi propagandists on behalf of the Bush administration,” says John Buchanan, whose work has appeared in more than 50 newspapers and magazines during his career.
Miami Beach Police Department detectives visited Buchanan, 53, at his Miami Beach apartment on Monday, October 13, as a result of his ongoing calls for the resignation or termination of Herald Publisher Alberto Ibarguen and Executive Editor Tom Fiedler.
Buchanan, an award-winning and internationally published journalist with more than 30 years of experience in New York, Los Angeles, Washington and Miami, became the first reporter in history to prove the Nazi past of the Bush family with U.S. obtained from The National Archives and Library of Congress between September 17 and October 2.
The Miami Herald and Knight-Ridder Newspapers have repeatedly refused to publish the story, even though it was offered to the Herald as an “exclusive.”
(snip)

http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/82773

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've got to go for the basic evening, but if it looks as if this post doesn't satisfy, I'll BE GLAD to get right back with some dandy links, you can be sure.

Oh, by the way, the right-wing extremist Cuban "exile" group in Miami has embraced the right-wing Venezuelan "exile" group in Miami. There are a lot of right-wing Venezuelans there, also. The Cuban "exile" community conducted an anti-Chavez parade last year on the very day the REST OF THE WORLD was protesting _Bush's illegitimate, and bogus war on Iraq.

[ParanoidPat]

66. Thanks for that info JudiLyn!

Very illuminating. :evilgrin: :toast:

[bemildred]

83. I still see it nowhere but Vcrisis and Miami Herald.

Nobody else picking it up. It think it's bullshit.

But oddly enough, the publisher of Vheadline has an OpEd
up supporting ex-Ambassador Alcalay, and stating that the
GN has problems that need to be addressed, which I find
entirely believeable. It's worth a read, because it says
that the Ambassador(Alcalay) says he still supports Chavez.

[windansea]

109. here it is in a Venezuelan paper

The musician Carlos Eduardo Izcaray Pinto, director of the Symphonic Orchestra of Venezuela, was also detained and tortured by the National Guard.
His father, Felipe Izcaray, denounced the abuse through a public letter.

"Carlos was detained in Altamira, near his house," the letter reads. "Although he told the National Guardsmen that he was not taking part in the demonstrations, he was forced into a military vehicle. They threw tear gas canisters into the vehicle while they were hitting him. Afterward, they took him to the National Guard Command in El Paraíso."

Izcaray senior wrote that being in the military facility his son was hit in his head, neck and back."

They applied electricity charges on several parts of his body, "burning his scalp." The situation of the young cellist was quite difficult because his family lives abroad and, thus, was unable to do anything to obtain his release.

http://www.eluniversal.com/2004/03/06/06A437651.shtml

funny how nobody wants to believe stories that don't fit their point of view.

if you can read spanish..here are links to media in Venezuela

http://venenews.net/

[Judi Lynn]

116. Ah, the fabulous "El Universal" newspaper!

Either you haven't been here long, or you have forgotten WE ALL KNOW ABOUT EL UNIVERSAL.

The El Universal has been and is to this day anti-Chavez and the government he has established.(snip)

(snip) The April 12, 2002 El Universal would concentrate on the deaths that occurred the day before, but it would only cover the deaths of the people who had been killed protesting against the government, demonstrating a clear bias towards the events. The article “Singing toward the death” was a gross portrayal of the sad events. In the first paragraph the protesters were portrayed this way, “To blow of one thirty all they went happy, singing orders, armed with their whistles, pans and banderillas from Chuao to Miraflores”. In the third paragraph, “They walked, without knowing it, course al slaughterhouse by the icy roads of Auschwitz, shouting oni a step behind, feeling that the fight could become hard, but without being imagined such time how much” (eluniversal.com). These descriptions seem as if they were coming from a fiction novel and not from a newspaper. There is absolutely no mention of the poor people protesting for President Chavez that were killed that day as well. In fact it was hard to get accurate numbers on the deaths that day from any where and both parties to this day contend all the deaths occurred on their side. One other article of interest from that day, “The sunset of the Circles”, seemed to hint at the coup to come: “to observe the movement of the supporters al tottering Government of the president Chavez, that to that hour, they were maintained resisting before the fall that was inevitable” (eluniversal.com). This is the second time in two days the paper predicts the fall of Chavez.

April 13, 2002 would see the interim government in place. The El Universal would hail the new regime, and demonstrate its support for the people who had seized power. In the article, “Miraflores left behind the Fifth Republic,” the new regime begins establishing its position and clearly states who’s taking power--the elite.
The officials that rebelled Thursday are the assistants of the President and not to stop accompanying it. The Public Power will function with Pedro Carmona and its ministers. A Counsel of State with 25 persons will assess al transitory president. The country will direct it a president during the transition until there be elections. The not governmental, the Church, Fedecámaras, the CTV should count on representation in the Counsel of State', explained the president Carmona, who then met with representatives of the political parties and of PdVSA (elunivrsal.com).
The previous statements indicates to me that this was definitely a coup d’etat lead by some powerful business men and military commanders. The list of groups to receive representation by the unelected Counsel of State, are the same groups who created the coup. There is also no mention of when the elections for a new government will be or how long this regime will wait to hold them. The government that had been in place was elected, and those organizations did run, they just didn’t get elected.

An even better article from the 13th is the one covering the U.S. reaction. The headline reads, “Washington praises soldiers” and then states the “United States blamed al government of Hugo Chavez to cause the political crisis in Venezuelan, <. . .> and avoided to define what happened as a coup d’etat” (elunivrsal.com). White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, when asked if the Bush administration had approved the coup, said, “Chávez gave the order to his supporters to shoot against peaceful demonstrators disarmed and he tried to impede that independent media of communication reported what he occurred” (elunivrsal.com). The Bush administration had to make a dance of its words and be very careful on its position. It could in no way indicate that what happened in Venezuela was a coup. Why? Because, if it was a coup the U.S. would have to take action, according to the paper, “If the exit of Chávez qualified as military coup, this would imply sanctions against Venezuela under the U.S. international law of aid” (elunivrsal.com). Dozens of papers around the world were calling this a coup, yet the American government didn’t, and in reality couldn't call it a coup, otherwise they would be called on to put sanctions on one of their largest oil suppliers. (snip)

http://www.whc.neu.edu/emartin/historybehindthenews/mccoy/media.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Venezuela's media establishment, closely aligned with a local oligarchy that has the receptive ear of the Bush administration, almost unanimously abhors Chávez' populist policies, big-mouth authoritarian style, friendship with media buster, Fidel Castro, and intolerance of criticism. Chávez hates them back.

Led by Cisneros, the media group, which also included Andrews Mata, owner of El Universal, Venezuela's other major daily, met with self-proclaimed interim President and big business mouthpiece Pedro Carmona on Saturday April 14, as demonstrators were pouring out on the streets of Caracas demanding Chávez' return. Flanked by one of the generals who had installed him in the presidential palace only a day earlier, Carmona asked the media bosses for help.

They obliged: shortly thereafter, the news blackout, which had started the night before, became total. Neither El Universal nor El Nacional published their Sunday editions. Globovisión's Ravell reportedly even called CNN's Atlanta headquarters to ask, in vain, that the U.S. network join the news blackout.

Venezuelans with access to cable and satellite — mostly the rabidly anti-Chávez middle and upper classes, the 20 percent not living in abject poverty — were thus able to find out that the coup was failing without leaving their homes. The poor had to go out on the streets to find out, which made them angrier — some attacked TV stations and newspapers — and probably accelerated Chávez' restoration, which happened early last Sunday. (snip)

http://www.thegully.com/essays/venezuela/020421_venezuel_media_coup.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have to leave again for awhile, will look forward to seeing whom you dredge up as a great information conduit next, in your search for the truth.

If you're settling for "El Universal" you'll discover we're going to be able to provide a LOT of links on that paper owned by Andrews Mata.

[windansea]

124. so only a pro chavez source will do?

you know they won't report it

I guess when I produce photos you will say they are photoshopped

here's a letter written by the guys father (in spanish)

http://www.analitica.com/va/arte/actualidad/9405822.asp

[RedCloud]

185. Will you give it up?

just take a look at the folly of your venezuelan newspaper search!
They actually put symbols by which ones to read including alerting the reader to a paper that may sympathize with Chávez. Is it some kind of Ditto head response?

[windansea]

188. no silly

it's a list of media covering Venezuela...since my sources are accused of being pro opposition...I am merely pointing out that their sources are pro Chavez...is this dificult for you to understand?

[windansea]

125. PS...heres links to most media in Venezuela

http://venenews.net/

with handy little red marks for the pro chavez sites

just so everyone knows whats up

[Judi Lynn]

129. Why would they throw tear gas cannisters into the vehicle,where they were,

too, since the article says they were "hitting him." Wouldn't that be self-defeating? Or were they standing OUTSIDE the vehicle, hitting him as he sat INSIDE the vehicle, along with the teargas cannisters? You be the judge.

This reminds me of the terrifying ordeal endured stoically by the blessed family of Lázaro Gonzalez, when those dreadful men came to legally retrieve Elián Gonzalez, to return him to his father, as per court orders, which had been repudiated by the drunken great-uncle, and supported by his Cuban American National Foundation mentors.

Who doesn't remember the tragic heroine, Marisleysis Gonzalez, as she led tv cameras through the house, pausing to point at a door, ripped off its hinges, and lying in the floor of the bedroom? Did it look like this?
Probably not. This photo was ALSO taken by the Miami Herald news photographer, who opted not to release it to news companies, but it floats up in this nutso anti-Clinton site:
http://www.planetaryhq.com/klinton.htm

What could be funnier? Here's a description from the esteemed Miami Herald:

Posted on Sun, Apr. 23, 2000





Raid leaves family dazed and in shock

`No words to describe this'

BY ANA ACLE

[e-mail]


GRIEF: Elian's cousin Marisleysis Gonzalez cries after he was taken. Complete coverage

The Gonzalezes looked emotionally beaten, like survivors of a hurricane.

Hours after federal agents stormed the Little Havana house, their patriarch, Lazaro, often seemed dazed and in shock, unresponsive to friends touching his arm. Other times, he raged against the raiders with deep, heaving sobs.

His shy wife, Angela, roamed the house, not speaking, tears welling in her eyes as she surveyed the raid's aftermath -- a shattered statue of the Virgin Mary on the foyer floor, a bedroom door cut in half, a closet door on the floor, Elian's broken Corvette bed.
(snip)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/news/2049511.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Verbal Communication: In fast paced, tense operations carried out by armed tactical units of law enforcement or the military, communication is kept at a minimum between officers and their targets. Commands are given, actually barked, in short, sharp, and clear sentences. "Get down!" "Hands up!" "Drop your weapon!" "Freeze!" "Don't move!" "Get back!" "Back Off!" "Police, Search Warrant!" "Federal agents, open the door!" We have seen this hundreds, if not thousands of times on Fox's Cops and other reality television police programs. It is as if tactical law enforcement officers attend the Ernest Hemingway School of Verbal Communication before graduating. Hollywood and television fantasy aside, law enforcement officers do not have the luxury to engage in extended, colorful dialogue with criminal suspects, i.e., none of this, "Go ahead, make my day, punk" foolishness. Law enforcement tactical units also are trained to avoid profanity or overly aggressive language, and not because they are Alan Alda-like woosebags. "'Profanity and obscenities get in the way and they can cause confusion<,>' the BORTAC commander said. 'We don't have time for that, but we have to make them understand we are serious.'"78 Both Marisleysis Gonzalez and Donato Dalrymple accused the BORTAC team members of using profanity: "Give me the f***ing boy. Give me the f***ing boy," said Marisleysis on ABC's Nightline. Donato exclaimed, also on Nightline: "They told me, and this is not fabricated or exaggerated, 'You see the picture, give us the boy. We'll shoot you' with the most foul language."79 Donato was going to be shot by "foul language?" Reminds me of Aliens: "What are we supposed to use, harsh language?" Sorry, I digressed. But on-scene operations commander James Goldman refuted these charges on the same ABC Nightline broadcast: "Orders were given in a clear, direct manner. Swearing and using profanities does not give law enforcement officers the edge. It becomes confusing, it's too much talking, orders such as 'stand back,' 'don't move,' 'don't come forward,' those are clear orders. Those are the types of orders that were given."80 The manual for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms refers to the use of sharp, terse orders as "command presence." "'This means that the entry team attempts to break the subjects' will to resist through the team's appearance, voice commands and physical and weapons skill,' the manual says."81 There is a rational, plausible explanation for the profanity that many claimed they heard. Consider the number of persons inside and just outside Lazaro's rented house with its three bedrooms, a small foyer, living room, kitchen, dining room, and one bathroom. According to most accounts, these individuals were inside the house: Lazaro, Marisleysis, Angela (the nearly invisible wife of Lazaro), Elian, Donato, Alan Diaz (A.P. photographer), Robert Curbelo Jr. (family friend), Armando Gutierrez, attorneys Kendall Coffey and Manny Diaz, Carlos and Rosa de la Cruz, Lazaro Martell (Elian's five-year-old cousin) and his mother, Yuleidi, NBC News cameraman Tony Zumbado, and an unidentified Latin Kings' gang member. Add the eight man BORTAC team, INS special agent Betty Mills, and you have a total of at least twenty-five people inside that house. Immediately just outside its front door are another forty to fifty people, including Ramon Saul Sanchez, Olga Saladrigas, Sylvia Iriondo, and the mystery man and woman. Could the umbrella man have been just around the corner?

Imagine the cacophony of voices, yelling, screaming in English, but mostly in Spanish; a whirlwind of shouting and no doubt cursing. Remember it was established that Lazaro often cursed. What probably occurred inside the house was the overlapping of so many voices that as the federal agents spoke, they appeared to be cursing when in fact it was the voices from the crowd. Think of it like a really bad Japanese Godzilla flick, you know, the ones with the awful dubbing.

http://www.geocities.com/michael_calderon/#brain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bonus Elián article:

The Photo NewsMax Doesn't Want You To See
All sorts of Elian photos are posted at NewsMax. Why not this one?



By Terry Krepel

NewsMax is proud to distort the news about the pre-dawn taking of Elian Gonzalez from his relatives in Miami. This we knew. So it's no surprise that Chris Ruddy and the boys are in no hurry to show you the above photo.

Why? It contradicts two major claims NewsMax and like-minded folks would have you believe about the raid.

It was taken seconds after the infamous shot of a "G-man in riot gear" (to quote NewsMax) brandishing a gun in front of a frightened Elian and Donato Dalrymple, the Miami fisherman who rescued the boy five months earlier, hiding in a closet. (American Politics Journal gets the credit for finding the photo and doing the first report on this.)

A NewsMax story, dramatically titled "Child Abuse, Clinton Style," quotes Dalrymple as saying he believed Elian had been physically injured in the abduction:

"It's as if they were taking a terrorist, a hostage. And they grabbed the boy, and I said, 'Please, don't hurt the child, don't hurt the child.' They grabbed this boy physically. They hurt him physically and emotionally. They ripped him from my arms."
(snip/...)

http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2000/nmelian.html

[Judi Lynn]

134. Can't help it, I miss the Miami Gonzalez rightwingnuts!

Let me ease our withdrawal pains:




Yes, we can be sure the information we get from the Miami Herald is the God's truth. They really dealt honestly with the American public on Elián's Miami "visit."

[nolabels]

172. At least they are clear about what kind of people they support

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1099

The Miami Herald Makes the Case for Suspected Venezuelan Terrorists
Wednesday, Feb 04, 2004


By: Martin Sanchez, Venezuelanalysis.com

On Feb. 02, 2004, The Miami Herald ran an editorial about petitions for asylum by two Venezuelan rebel military officers who escaped to Miami after investigations linked them to terrorist attacks against the diplomatic buildings of Colombia and Spain in Caracas in February 2003.

Venezuelan National Guard lieutenants José Antonio Colina and German Rodolfo Varela belong to a group of military officials that rebelled against the Venezuelan government by holding a protest camp in a Caracas plaza and making public speeches calling for the overthrow of the government.

The Herald editorial’s overall tone is one in defense of the terror suspects. The suspects’ political opposition to the government of President Hugo Chavez is obviously the reason why the newspaper bothered to address the case in an editorial.

The Herald’s editorial line opposed to the twice-elected Venezuelan President is well known, and an editorial defending some of Chavez's political opponents should not surprise anyone. The Herald runs anti-Chavez news and articles on a daily basis. However, this case deserves special attention because even though the Herald claims to make “no judgment on whether these men are guilty or innocent”, it is clear that they are trying to persuade or to pressure U.S. immigration officers to grant asylum to two individuals who face serious terrorism charges.

The editorial calls for US Immigration officials to “give them an opportunity to make their case for asylum”, as if this was not the normal procedure in these cases. Telling the US Citizenship and Immigration Services how to do their job is inappropriate. The Herald itself reported in January 22nd that there were 899 applications for asylum by Venezuelans in 2003, of which 168 were accepted.
(snip)

[bemildred]

150. Google it on Google News: "Izcaray"

You get 4 stories, two in Vcrisis, two in Miami Herald.
It is not the sort of story our whore media would miss if
it stood up on it's own, it would be all over.

[AP]

94. You are a treasure.

[Vladimir]

97. Beautiful

:headbang: great bit of research

V

[Duck90MPH]

79. The Chavez apologists will claim it's a false story

Unless the story come from Chavez or his supporters directly they'll just blow it off. Never mind that Carter, Frank and other prominent Dems speak out against the Chavez dictatorship - Chavez can do no wrong.

[0007]

88. Chavez can do no wrong"

junior can do no right!!

[Isome]

99. I'm sure he can do wrong.

It just hasn't been proven that he has.

[ParanoidPat]

100. Chavez won his elections......

.....that's more than anyone can say about Bush*! :evilgrin:

Side note to windansea, I have only three words for you, FOLLOW THE MONEY! :)

[windansea]

102. see post 98

re previous Chavez instigated coups

since you didn't like the first source

[ParanoidPat]

110. I asked for mainstream sources and you give us this crap!

PUH-LEASE! How about this post in LBN right now.

Billy_Pilgrim Donating member (1000+ posts) Sun Mar-07-04 06:19 PM
Original message

U.S. rights record criticized

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/4650191.html

KABUL, AFGHANISTAN -- U.S. operations in Afghanistan are marred by needless civilian casualties, lawless arrests and the alleged torture of prisoners, Human Rights Watch said today.

The U.S. military rejected the group's findings, saying it "confused the situation" in strife-torn Afghanistan for one where peacetime methods could be used.

The report raised questions for the United States as it embarks on new operations aimed at Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and others. "The behavior of the United States sends the message that the U.S. operates on a set of double standards," the New York-based rights group said, referring to Washington's criticism of other countries' human rights records.

The 50-page report said the military used excessive force to capture suspects in residential areas.

In one raid detailed in the report, a farmer was killed by gunfire during an arrest operation aimed at another man and his two sons -- all of whom were later released.

<snip>

I guess we need to remove Bush* from power for human rights abuses. It works for me! :evilgrin:

[windansea]

112. heh heh

can't admit when you are wrong??? you didn't know about Chavez instigated coups...mouthed off about it..and got proved wrong

I know its embarrassing but you really should think before you speak

is that why you are trying to change the subject now???

:evilgrin:

[ParanoidPat]

115. The subject is and has been from your first post....

.....the unsubstantiated lies about Hugo Chavez having people tortured, or have you forgotten what you originally posted? :shrug:

You've been a Bush* apologist since you showed up here and tend to post blather from discredited right wing sources. You fool no one. :evilgrin:

[windansea]

119. unsubstantiated lies??

scroll down for graphic photos of torture victims

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/2004/03/04.html#a1352

as for our exchange concerning your doubt that Chavez instigated an armed coup himself...here it is, starting with you asking mobuto for a link....which I provided...it's a known fact...Chavez was involved in 2 armed coups and went to jail for it...


mobuto (1000+ posts) Sun Mar-07-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #76

77. Coup backers or coup leaders?


The latter group would definitely include Mr. Chavez himself.



ParanoidPat (1000+ posts) Sun Mar-07-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #77

82. You got a link to that or are you just desperately reaching?


ROFLMAO!


windansea (1000+ posts) Sun Mar-07-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #82

89. eat up


http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_161.shtml


ParanoidPat (1000+ posts) Sun Mar-07-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #89

90. BWAHAHAHAHA! The Air Combat Information Group is your source?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Give it a fuckin' rest already!

Don't you have anything other than right wing sources?


windansea (1000+ posts) Sun Mar-07-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #90

98. ok how bout WSWS????


Chavez, a former paratrooper who rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel, staged an abortive coup attempt in 1992 against the government of Carlos Andres Perez and was jailed for his efforts. Six years later, he was elected president as head of the Patriotic Pole, an electoral front comprised of his own Fifth Republic Movement and various parties of the petty-bourgeois nationalist left.

lefty enought for you??

you are sadly lacking in your knowledge of Venezuelan history...perhaps a bit more study before you demonstrate this in public

PS the air combat site is non political...air combat is a military science and some of our best pilots are gasp....democrats!!!

[ParanoidPat]

120. Your original post is an unsubstantiated lie!

Post a link to anything other than your two right wing sources! :evilgrin:

Come on, this is a BIG story if it's true. Where's the international press? You are so transparent it's pathetic! Nice try but no sale!

[windansea]

121. here it is in a couple venezuelan papers

The musician Carlos Eduardo Izcaray Pinto, director of the Symphonic Orchestra of Venezuela, was also detained and tortured by the National Guard.
His father, Felipe Izcaray, denounced the abuse through a public letter.

"Carlos was detained in Altamira, near his house," the letter reads. "Although he told the National Guardsmen that he was not taking part in the demonstrations, he was forced into a military vehicle. They threw tear gas canisters into the vehicle while they were hitting him. Afterward, they took him to the National Guard Command in El Paraíso."

Izcaray senior wrote that being in the military facility his son was hit in his head, neck and back."

They applied electricity charges on several parts of his body, "burning his scalp." The situation of the young cellist was quite difficult because his family lives abroad and, thus, was unable to do anything to obtain his release.

http://www.eluniversal.com/2004/03/06/06A437651.shtml

this one's in spanish...it's a bit more detailed and was written by the guys father...this story is new...but don't worry...there will be medical reports from the hospital where he is being treated

http://www.analitica.com/va/arte/actualidad/9405822.asp

it must suck to be proved wrong twice in one thread...3 strikes and you are out


:hi:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

136. It must suck when you're stuck with offering lame "sources"...

...that got their stories from who-knows-where.

You do know that the U. S. routinely plants stories in the foreign press in hopes that they will be picked up by the U. S. press, don't you? You do know that the OSP is one of those groups planting stories, don't you? You know who the OSP is, don't you? The OSP is the same Pentagon-based alleged intelligence agency that fabricated the "Iraq has WMDs" story.

You ran out of strikes quite a while ago...why don't you quit while you're way behind?

[windansea]

189. I know...I know

only pro Chavez sources are considered legitimate, and posting any other source of news is not fair...AI, HRW, Carter Center are compromised...Frank is on the finance comittee...perhaps you'd like to start a pro Chavez thread and all the Chavistas can post 100% pro Bolivarian propaganda....sing kumbaya....and celebrate the glorious triumphs of the revolution....I promise not to butt in.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

190. The Venezuelan media is THE LAST source I'd trust

I think your sources are quite lame - but you're sticking to them. Oh well.

[Judi Lynn]

126. DU'ers who don't know, should know Carlos Andres Perez

who served as Venezuela's President during the TWO coup attempts was impeached for corruption, and also has a REAL record of vicious human rights abuses.

The people involved in the two coup attempts knew what they were coup'ing about, for sure:

(snip) In 1989, the prevailing political calm was shattered when Venezuela experienced rioting in which more than 200 people were killed--the so-called Caracazo, in response to an economic austerity program launched by then-President Carlos Andres Perez. Subsequently in February 1992, a group of army lieutenant colonels led by future President Hugo Chavez mounted an unsuccessful coup attempt, claiming that the events of 1989 showed that the political system no longer served the interests of the people. A second, equally unsuccessful,coup attempt by other officers followed in November in 1992. A year later, Congress impeached Perez on corruption charges. Deep popular dissatisfaction with the traditional political parties, income disparities, and economic difficulties were some of the major frustrations expressed by Venezuelans following Perez's impeachment. Hugo Chavez Frias won the presidency in December 1998, after campaigning for far-reaching reform, constitutional change, and a crackdown on corruption. His programs have alienated much of the upper and upper-middle class while retaining the enthusiastic support of poorer Venezuelans. There has been no social violence, however, and Venezuela remains a democracy.
(snip)

http://www.traveldocs.com/ve/govern.htm
This is a sketchy article, quite abbreviated, so I'll just scrounge around for more.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Human Rights and International Treaties

Before Chávez came to power Venezuela was formally bound by human rights standards, but in practice often violated them. Torture, censorship, and violations of the right to assembly were quite common, especially during the second presidency of Carlos Andres Perez (1989-1993). Those who suffered from these human rights violations were to a very large extent the same people who swept into power with the election of Chávez as president. Many of these individuals thus participated in the formulation of the new constitution as members of the constitutional assembly. As a result, they gave human rights a central place in the constitution. However, the human rights that the constitution mentions go far beyond what most constitutions incorporate. Not only civil rights, such as the freedom of expression, assembly, and political participation are included, but so are social human rights, such as the right to employment, housing, and health care. For example, with regard to health care, the constitution states, “Health is a fundamental social right, an obligation of the state, which guarantees it as part of the right to life.” In practice, this has opened health care to many Venezuelans who previously did not have access to it.

A further innovation of the new constitution is the inclusion of international treaties as having equal standing with the constitution, meaning that they must be enforced in the same way.
(snip) http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1003

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yet at a time when few outsiders were taking much notice of events in Latin America - during the decade after the end of the Cold War - Venezuela suddenly emerged at the front of the field. It was the first country in Latin America to suffer from serious and debilitating government corruption, the first to react violently against externally-imposed policies of neo-liberalism and the so-called ‘Washington Consensus’, and the first to experiment with an entirely fresh and original programme of anti-globalisation. Contemporary politics in Venezuela begin with the ‘Caracazo’ of 1989, an explosion of political rage by the underclass in Caracas (and some other cities) against a neo-liberal programme imposed by a once-popular president (Carlos Andres Perez), who had just been elected to do something entirely different. For two days the city degenerated into violence of a kind not seen in Venezuela since the 19th century, sparked off by an increase in bus fares but reflecting a much wider political discontent. A thousand people, perhaps more, were killed in the subsequent repression by the armed forces.

This event, it can now be recognised, was as important for Latin America as the fall of the Berlin Wall (which took place later that year) was for Europe. It marked the first occasion when the neo-liberal agenda being imposed on the continent was dramatically rejected by a popular uprising. Comparable rebellions occurred subsequently in several other countries of the continent, but Venezuela was there first.
(snip)

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/twr149i.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've just scratched the surface, but I believe these snippets should suffice to allow the serious DU posters, and there are many here, to refresh their memory, or, if some haven't run across this information, start looking up more material on the man who was running Venezuela ragged WHEN the two coup attempts happened.

Unless I'm mistaken, I haven't seen any references to hundreds of people being gunned down, on orders from Hugo Chavez. I could be wrong, however.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

137. Excellent post, JudiLyn....thanks.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

191. Awesome!

:toast:

[Isome]

113. Where does it say Hugo Chavez ordered the dirty deed done?

I may have missed the post that proves a connection to Chavez, himself, and the alleged crime committed.

If there's no real proof, then the story is mere right wing smegma that is everywhere wingers tread.

Bush supporters were responsible for some of the violence committed against Arabs and Indians after Sept. 11, he wasn't held responsible. As much as I can't stand the man, I couldn't logically hold him responsible. On the other hand, wingers use tortuous logic to hold any leader on the left culpable for the supposed actions of those who support them. It's crrrraaap, especially considering the instances of violence being perpetrated by infiltrators from the right (COINTELPRO wasn't disbanded, just renamed) and blamed on the supporters of the left. They're just wicked that way.

[ParanoidPat]

118. Thanks!

I couldn't have said it better myself! :evilgrin: :toast:

Always remember, the very first press release from the new Office of Disinformation was that the Office of Disinformation was being abolished!

You just can't make this stuff up! :(

[mobuto]

139. He didn't have to

Whether Chavez ordered the act, or merely tolerated it, is irrelevant. Chavez is responsible for the behavior of his subordinates. The buck stops with him.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

161. DINGDINGDINGDING we have a winnah! (nt)

[bobbyboucher]

123. Yeah, sure.

Whatev.

[slack]

130. Always the same, watch the sources

it's like kindergarten.

How did Al Franken says, your opponents are "LIES: And the Lying Liars Who Tell them."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/bush/bush.html

[Judi Lynn]

132. For anyone who read several posts pushing Jimmy Carter

as the ultimate, unblemished American democratic authority on Venezuela, you might want to remind yourself of something you undoubtedly read before, and probably forgot.

He is friendly with Venezuelan billionaire dirtbag, and communication media owner (who also is friendly with George H. W. Bush) Gustavo Cisneros:

Gustavo Cisneros & family , 57 , inherited and growing
Track This Person

Source: media
Net Worth: $4 bil
Country of citizenship: Venezuela
Marital Status: married , 3 children
Babson College, Bachelor of Arts / Science


Latin America's media baron, owner of big holdings in Univision, AOL Latin America, DirecTV Latin America and a score of other media companies. An outspoken critic of Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, whom he criticizes for "arrogant abuse of power and authority." In turn, Chavez accuses him of complicity in last April's coup attempt and of using his private TV station Venevision to undermine the administration, accusations Cisneros vehmently denies. Luckily, about 80% of his holdings are outside Venezuela. A socialite, Cisneros hobnobs with U.S. friends such as Jimmy Carter and George Bush Sr. Guests at his daughter's lavish New York wedding reception in October included Kofi Annan, Sid Bass and Oscar de la Renta.
(snip)

http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists/10/2003/LIR.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=2003&passListType=Person&uniqueId=GX8F&datatype=Person

On edit:

He was the subject of a heart-felt protest recently in the U.S.:

Women protest US award to Venezuelan coup leader


The Global Women’s Strike condemns the outrageous decision of the Inter-American Economic Council to honor Gustavo Cisneros at its 2004 Winter Gala tonight – it shows once more the total contempt of the US administration for people’s right to elect their own government. To recognize as a person who “has consistently sought to create an environment where business and government can work together in meaningful ways for the betterment of society,” a man who has systematically used his corporate wealth and media monopoly to illegally and violently attempt to force from office the democratically-elected government of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, is particularly cynical. It is women in particular who elected and have overwhelmingly defended President Chavez, and women from the poorest areas who have most to gain from and have been most involved in the economic and social reforms Venezuela is undertaking to tackle poverty and corruption despite constant coup and assassination attempts from the likes of Cisneros.

The award is being given at the Andrew W. Mellon Auditorium 1301 Constitution Avenue, NW January 29, 2004, beginning at 6:30pm.



Gustavo Cisneros’ record is one of working for the “betterment” of the white, racist elite of Venezuela against the interests of the vast majority of Venezuelans who are people of color, and who, in oil-rich Venezuela, were left mired in poverty after 40 years of rule by the Venezuelan elite:

§ He played a leading role in the bloody April 11, 2002 coup d’etat against the government of President Hugo Chavez – a coup planned and carried out with the support of the US administration. The coup was defeated within days by millions of grassroots people taking to the streets to demand the return of their elected President and constitution.

§ He was a leader in the Dec 2002-Feb 2003 nationwide big-corporations’ lock out aimed at forcing President Chávez from office, which brought more suffering to grassroots Venezuelans. Again, grassroots people, starting with the oil workers themselves worked overtime to save their valuable resource, and defeated the new attempt of overthrowing President Chavez.

§ He has used his media power in relentless campaigns of lies, disinformation, distortion and racist insults against President Chavez and his supporters. On the day of the coup he even used his television station, Venevision, as the meeting place for top coup supporters, reportedly including the dictator illegally installed as President, Pedro Carmona.

§ The Cisneros Group has been implicated in the December 2003 illegal shipment of US$2.5 million in cash seized aboard an American Airlines flight from Miami Florida to Caracas, no doubt intended to help finance another attempted coup against the Venezuelan people.

§ Gustavo Cisneros personally spoke with the U.S. State Department's former Latin American Affairs Chief, Otto Reich and the U.S. Ambassador to Venezuela, Charles Shapiro (currently under fire for hosting a puppet show ridicule of President Chávez in his home in Caracas) on the day of the coup, an event reported in Newsweek Magazine (see Newsweek, April 29, 2002, p.10).
(snip/...)

http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/01/1669078.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jimmy Carter should be far more circumspect about the quality of friends he keeps. Having Gustavo Cisneros as a personal friend disqualifies ANYONE as an impartial judge of Venezuelan Presidential political matters. He's a friend of one of the coup leaders, f'r crissakes!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

138. Wow! Another excellent post! Thanks again.

[windansea]

176. my my

so a former president of the United States knows a venezuelan billionaire...shocking!!! and since Jimmy went to the guy's daughters wedding the Carter Center's reports on the referendum process in Venezuela are now compromised...instead of practicing RW character assasination of Carter..perhaps you can point out where the Carter Center has ever done anything but try to promote free and fair elections...did you know that Chavez donated $1,000,000 to the Carter Center???

http://www.unwire.org/unwire/20020911/28846_story.asp

This might make one think that this could compromise them in favor of the chavistas...but of course their recent reports on the referendum and siganture validation show them to be fair and unbiased as usual...trying to smear Carter's reputation won't win you any arguments. You'll also need to dig up something on Barney Frank as he agrees with the Carter Center.

If you'd like to discuss the legality of the referendum, the validity of the signatures, and defend Chavez and the CNE tactics changing the rules in the middle of the process and trying to use technicalities to disenfranchise the citizens of Venezuela...let me know.

here's a good place to start...

Coup by Technicality
Friday, March 5, 2004; Page A22

LATE LAST YEAR 3,448,747 of Venezuela's 24 million citizens turned out in just four days to sign petitions calling for a recall referendum on President Hugo Chavez. This extraordinary civic exercise, monitored by observers from the Organization of American States and the Carter Center, offered a democratic solution to years of political conflict in that important oil-producing nation -- trouble that threatened to push Venezuela into dictatorship or civil war. Now Mr. Chavez, whose crackpot populism and authoritarian methods provoked the crisis, blatantly seeks to stop the vote, in violation of his commitment to both the OAS and his own constitution. His actions have already prompted a new wave of unrest across the country, including demonstrations in which at least seven people have been killed. Unless he can be restrained, Mr. Chavez may complete his destruction of one of Latin America's most enduring democracies.

more...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31927-2004Mar4.html

[windansea]

209. chirpity chirp

didn't think you had an answer..but you get an A in character assasination....just let me know when you're ready to debate the real issue...Chavez fears a fair recall vote because he knows he will lose...I am astonished that members of a 'democratic" forum want to supress a fair vote...

3.5 million people signed and fingerprinted their constitutional right to hold a recall...the signatures were witnessed by representatives of Chavez, the opposition, and the Carter Center...IDs were checked...this is not a CIA plot or an armed coup...it's not about Bush or oil or your philosophy..it's about letting the citizens of venezuela express their will...do you seriously think 3.5 million venezuelans signed the form because the CIA told them to so Bush can grab their oil...you think you know what's best for Venezuelans but you don't...let them freakin vote...I am amazed that supposed progressive democrats would support anything else.

[Judi Lynn]

135. One of the visiting posters called attention to two coups

Here's moe info. on the situation during the Presidency of Andres Carlos Perez, in office during both coups, from the Human Rights Watchorganization:

The use of violence by police resulting in death and serious physical harm continued in 1993. Police committed human rights violations not only in criminal investigations, but also during control of public demonstrations and street protests. According to PROVEA, police agents were responsible for 128 unjustified killings between October 1992 and June 1993 (not including at least fifty-seven civilian deaths resulting from the suppression of the uprising at the Retén de Catia prison). The number represented an increase over previous years. Security forces-including the Metropolitan Police, the National Guard, the intelligence force DISIP and the Judicial Technical Police (PTJ), an auxiliary body to the courts operating under the Ministry of Justice-employed such abusive methods as force disproportionate to the circumstances, extrajudicial executions and physical abuse and torture. Police abuse took place at every stage of police contact with citizens, both during and after arrest and detention and in the suppression of civic protest.

For example, on the night of December 16, 1992, Metropolitan Police were dispatched to quell a motorcyclists' party in the Blandín area of Caracas. Police were reported to have arrived shooting. One police officer was shot in the arm. Angered over his injury, he ordered other officers to open fire on a group of detained persons lying prone on the ground. Three individuals were killed. Two more were killed by gunfire as they separately fled the scene on motorcycle. No one was detained for these killings. On April 29, 1993, DISIP agents were seen by witnesses as they arrested a twelve-year-old male street child in the Sabana Grande section of Caracas, took him to a remote area, poured gas on his genitals and abused him physically and verbally. Investigations into this case produced no results. Sergio Rodríguez Yance, a university employee, was fatally shot on September 23, 1993, when government forces fired on a student protest in Caracas.

Security-force agents were rarely indicted or convicted for abuses against civilians. State agents also continued to benefit from the averiguación de nudo hecho, a pre-trial procedure designed to protect state agents from frivolous criminal charges. In practice, this investigative procedure delayed criminal proceedings unnecessarily, creating a temporary immunity from prosecution. While state agents responsible for the massacre at El Amparo were convicted-although with shockingly light sentences-not one state agent had been detained or incarcerated, as of November 1993, for the unlawful violence during the mass Caracazo riots of February and March 1989. Thousands were injured and at least 398 persons were killed, most of them shot by the military and police. During 1993 there was no perceptible advance in some 260 judicialinvestigations into these cases in both civilian courts and the 2nd Military Court of Caracas.

Investigations into the mass burial of more than sixty Caracazo victims in the "La Peste" section of Caracas's General Southern Cemetery continued to be stalled. There was no progress in identifying the victims (only three had been identified, in 1991), although as of June 1993, five additional sets of remains were being examined by government forensic experts. No criminal responsibility was yet assigned for the unlawful manner of burial or the killings themselves.
(snip)

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/WR94/Americas-11.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez was jailed for two years before being pardoned.

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.

2000 - Foreign Minister Jose Vicente Rangel discloses plot to kill Chavez. Chavez wins another six years in office and a mandate to pursue political reforms.
(snip)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/country_profiles/1229348.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Doesn't it make you wonder why the poster never mentioned that Hugo Chavez lead the first, milder coup, and that he was PARDONED by the next President?

[AP]

140. This is what the opposition is trying to bring back to Venezuela.

In The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, the filmmakers went out on the street during the coup, and this is what the opposition leaders were doing.

[0007]

156. I'm sure those two visiting posters will gag

upon reading your precious post JudiLyn. Thank you for your research and time consuming effort to help bring the truth to those two paid clowns.

[Judi Lynn]

154. Former, IMPEACHED Vene. Pres. Carlos Andres Perez

has been involved in the war against Chavez from his digs in Miami. (How MANY corrupt idiots CAN you stuff into one town?)

The leadership of the oil workers union, which operated in close alliance with the two political parties that ran Venezuela for 40 years before Chávez, also became involved. And information continues to surface about the role played by the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers (CTV) leadership, especially its president, Carlos Ortega, in the coup attempt and his ongoing role in efforts to bring down Chávez. Tayler notes that former Venezuelan president Carlos Andres Perez, currently living in Miami, who is wanted on corruption charges in Venezuela and has been accused of involvement in the plot, is a mentor of both Ortega and Carmona.
(snip)

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/07/138635.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Omigod!

Do you remember Cuban "exile" bomber Luis Posada Carriles,
the bustard who, with Cuban "exile" Orlando Bosch
bombed the Cubana airliner in 1976, on October 6th, with 73 people on board, including young students from Guyana, and the entire Cuban Olympic fencing team?

The impeached Vene. President Carlos Andres Perez (against whom Hugo Chavez led one of the two coups against him) actually SAVED THE LIFE of this monster by snagging him, and keeping him safe from Cuban courts. You may remember reading that Reagan's propaganda chief, Otto Reich, in the Office of Public Diplomacy at the State Department was actually the U.S. Ambassador to Vene. at some point around this time, and HE secured, along with _{Jeb Bush} and Cuban "exile" Representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen an administrative PARDON from _{George H. W. Bush} for the OTHER BOMBER, Orlando Bosch.<gag> <retch>

Shortly after former President Carlos Andres Perez took office in 1976, he decided to try Posada Carriles for the jetliner boming.

``In order to avoid him going to Cuba we demanded to try him in Venezuela,'' Andres Perez told The Associated Press. ''... We had to stop at all costs that prisoners were sent to Cuba because that was to send them before the firing squad.''

To send Posada Carriles to Cuba for trial now would also be ``a death sentence,'' said the former Venezuelan president, who opposes such a move.

Posada Carriles spent nine years in prison in Venezuela during several trials for the jetliner bombing. He was acquitted twice and escaped from custody in 1985 while awaiting retrial.
(snip)

http://www.jsonline.com/news/intl/ap/nov00/ap-cuba's-public-e112100.asp

Well, well, it's a small world, isn't it?

Here are the two worms when they were young bombers:
Posada Carriles:

Orlando Bosch

Remember you heard it here:
The President Hugo Chavez attempted to replace through a coup snatched this mass murderer from the jaws of a firing squad in Cuba, which would have been hiss only destination without Carlos Andres Perez running interference for him.

[Judi Lynn]

159. Since you're deeply respectful of Barney Frank's opinion of Vene. matters

Maybe you'll be interested in reading an open letter he has signed:

Open Letter to Bush on Venezuela from U.S. Congress members - and You
Add your signature in favor of Authentic Democracy


By U.S. Reps Kucinich, Conyers, Serrano, Frank...
U.S. Congress and Civil Society
December 13, 2002

Hon. George W. Bush
President
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC, 20500

Dear President George W. Bush,

Given the high level of political tension in Venezuela, and recognizing that part of the leadership of the opposition is determined to depose President Hugo Chávez by any means, we, the undersigned organizations and persons, urge you to declare unequivocally that the government of the United States is opposed to any unconstitutional or coup attempt against the democratically elected government of Venezuela. Also, the White House should affirm that the United States will not recognize diplomatic relations with a government installed by means of a coup.

We believe that the silence of the White House after the April 11th coup d’etat, which the Administration appeared to congratulate, is generally seen as a support for a coup. We are concerned by the fact that this perception diminishes the incentives for the opposition and the Chávez government to seek dialogue or a peaceful solution to the current crisis.

We are also concerned that, while the top officials of the White House have remained silent, Otto Reich, the Special Envoy for the Western Hemisphere of the State Department, recently denounced the Venezuelan government, saying that, “the existence of elections is not enough to say that a country is democratic.” This is a strange departure from diplomatic protocol, and in the light of what happened during the April coup, it has risen the level of suspicion that Venezuelan officials have about Washington’s motives.

The role of the United States government in the April 11th coup is not clear. We know that some United States officials met with the coup leaders in the months before the coup. Groups involved with the coup also received financing from the United States government. At the same time, the Bush Administration openly expressed its hostility toward the government of President Chávez. According to the office of the Inspector General of the State Department, one of the reasons for this friction was “the participation (of President Chávez) in the affairs of the Venezuelan oil company and the impact this could have on the price of oil.”

Also, the Office of the Inspector General of the State Department, after investigating the role of U.S. officials before and after the April coup, concluded that U.S. warnings against the coup “were perhaps not critical enough. Among these warnings, few went beyond the formulation of common and ritualistic opposition to ‘anti-democratic or unconstitutional change.’ Any warning of non-recognition of a coup installed government, economic sanctions or other punitive and corrective actions were few and far between. Retrospectively, this has also been recognized and lamented by some high United States officials.”

The Inspector General’s report also noted that “the fact of having met frequently with those interested in toppling the Chávez government could have been seen as United States backing for their efforts, notwithstanding our ritualistic denunciation of anti-democratic and unconstitutional measures.”

Given those circumstances, the current silence by the White House about its opposition to a coup d’etat or other unconstitutional defeat of a democratically elected government in Venezuela is seen throughout Venezuela and elsewhere as support for those illegal actions. The opposition leaders, determined to defeat a government, have few incentives to seek a peaceful solution via dialogue if they believe that the United States government would support whatever happens. The government of the United States must demonstrate its current and active support for democratically elected governments. Only a strong statement of condemnation by the White House explaining that the U.S. is opposed to violent or unconstitutional actions, that it will not tolerate a coup government and that it will impose sanctions on any government installed by coup measures, would send the correct and democratic message to the Venezuelan political actors and the other Latin American governments.

Therefore, we urge the White House to clarify its position, before Venezuela goes to Civil War.

Sincerely,

U.S. Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich, Ohio

U.S. Rep. John Conyers, Jr., Michigan

U.S. Rep. José E. Serrano, New York

U.S. Rep. Barney Frank, Massachusetts

U.S. Rep. Major R. Owens, New York

Al Giordano, journalist, América

http://www.narconews.com/Issue26/article562.html

Bonus photos: the tortured young conductor:



http://www.mujereslegendarias.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Carlos%2BEduardo%2BIzcaray%2BPinto%2522%2B%252B%2BVenezuela%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Dactive">~~~~ link ~~~~

[Judi Lynn]

166. Starting to look for information on your author,

Phil Gunson refers to himself as a “freelance correspondent” in Venezuela. He has written during the past month for the Miami Herald, the St. Petersburg Times, MSNBC (online only) and the Independent of London. He has also been interviewed recently on NPR and on WAMU radio in Washington DC about the events in Venezuela (parts of those interviews are quoted below).

The two men have a relationship related to Gunson’s “journalism” that – after they were given the opportunity to come clean by Narco News – neither Gunson nor Ekvall were willing to disclose.

Additionally, Gunson has an undisclosed conflict of interest, or at least the appearance of a conflict of interest (all journalistic codes of ethics prohibit such nondisclosure), with the key source that he quoted last April 11th to blame the still unsolved sniper assassinations of that day on supporters of the government of President Hugo Chávez in Venezuela: His source for that uncorroborated statement – part of the justification for the coup d’etat – was Eurídice Ledezma, who Gunson has told sources (but did not disclose in his article) was his former girlfriend; a rapidly pro-coup reporter in Venezuela, also – coincidentally? – a vocal defender of Dictator-for-a-day Pedro Carmona.

Asked about this apparent conflict, Gunson sent a “response” to Narco News (published in full and uncensored below) in which he issued no denial or clarification of that serious allegation. He simply did not address it at all.

There are other serious problems with Gunson’s reports out of Venezuela last April and again this month. Many of his statements appear to us to have been made in a knowingly false manner.
(snip)

http://www.narconews.com/Issue26/article562.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gunson Admits to Plagiarizing Pro-Coup
Spin Doctor Janet Kelly in MSNBC Article:

In our December open letter to Gunson, we pointed out that his “lede” (journo-speak for the opening paragraphs of a published report) contained a ditty comparing President Hugo Chávez to a children’s cartoon character falling off a cliff, and that partisan political analyst Janet Kelly had used the same description during those same days.

We asked Gunson if he plagiarized that reference without crediting the author (thus saddling Newsweek/MSNBC online, for whom he wrote that story, with a possible plagiarism problem).

Here, Gunson comes clean:

“The author of the simile is indeed Ms Kelly. It was a good one, and I stole it.”
(snip)

http://www.narconews.com/Issue32/article598.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's an attempt by Gunson to connect Hugo Chavez to sinister Mid-East terrifying evil doers for the Miami Herald:

Posted on Fri, Nov. 28, 2003





Two radicals to head passport agency

President Hugo Chávez's appointment of two radicals to run the passport agency raises eyebrows partly because of reports of Arabs obtaining Venezuelan ID documents.

BY PHIL GUNSON

Special to The Herald


PHOTOS BY

PHIL GUNSON

FOR THE HERALD

VENEZUELA

CARACAS -- Already facing allegations that Muslim extremists have obtained Venezuelan identity documents, President Hugo Chávez has put the country's passport agency in the hands of two radicals -- one a supporter of Saddam Hussein.

Hugo Cabezas and Tareck el Aissami were appointed last month as director and deputy director of the Identification and Immigration Directorate, in charge of border controls and issuing passports and national ID cards. The agency also works with electoral authorities on voter registration.

Both were top student leaders at the University of the Andes in the western city of Merida, described by senior school officials as a virtual haven for armed Chávez supporters and leftist guerrillas.

When El Aissami served as president of the student body from 2001 to 2003, his armed supporters controlled the university's dormitories, said Oswando Alcala, a professor and director of student affairs.
(snip)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7365577.htm
(Remember the Miami Herald's current reputation in journalism!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's a hit piece masquerading as an obituary:

Cardinal Ignacio Velasco

Archbishop denounced by Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez

Phil Gunson
Monday July 14, 2003
The Guardian

Ignacio, Cardinal Velasco, archbishop of Caracas, who has died of lymphatic cancer aged 74, was a thorn in the side of Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez and his "Bolivarian revolution". Official condolences over his death were expressed through metaphorical clenched teeth, while on pro-Chavez websites the prelate was labelled a corrupt ally of the "oligarchy" and a plotter.
As the faithful trooped past his coffin, supporters of the president were in the square outside. They chanted slogans, threw stones and firecrackers and held up pictures of the archbishop embellished with the devil's horns.

No oligarch by birth, Velasco came from the humble town of Acarigua, in the plains state of Portuguesa. At the age of 12, he entered a seminary in Caracas belonging to the Salesian order, to which he would remain faithful for life and which he was to head in Venezuela, and in the whole Latin American and Caribbean region.

By training, Velasco was a philosophy teacher, completing his studies in Italy, where, in 1955, he took his vows as a priest. Much of his career was then devoted to running Salesian schools in Venezuela, and it was not until 1989 that he achieved prominence, when Pope John Paul II named him Bishop of Puerto Ayacucho, capital of the vast Amazonas region in the south of the country.
(snip) http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,997476,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You may want to compare his different voices against the one in which he wrote the one used at the top of the thread, pandering to the most absurd town drunk emotionalism he could ever address in anyone silly enough to take the article seriously. You probably noticed it's a little obvious and childish, and insincere in its tone. I think "manipulative" would be a good word.

This only works well among people who are a little unhinged, like right-wingers.

[mobuto]

171. Fascinating

However the subject of this article is a symphony conductor, not its author. Do you have specific evidence to suggest that the content is false? If you do we'd like to see it.

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

193. Thank you for bringing Palast into the mix

and yes: there are freepers in our midsts!

[earthman dave]

183. We must invade! NOW! nt

[Say_What]

203. Vcrisis??? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

laughable--worse than FAUX Nooz and the Mooney Times that you also often post as *credible* sources. :spank: