Judge strikes down Richmond's Chevron tax

[Newsjock]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

In a blow to financially strapped Richmond and a $20 million victory for Chevron Corp., a Contra Costa County judge has struck down a tax approved by local voters last year that assessed the company for the value of the crude oil it refines in the city.

Measure T is unconstitutional because the tax is out of proportion to the business Chevron does in Richmond and the services it receives there, said Superior Court Judge David Flinn.

He said the tax also violates state law because it is based on the value of materials that Chevron uses in its refinery. Only the state can impose such a "use tax," Flinn said.

He said Chevron was entitled to a refund.

... City voters passed Measure T with a 51.5 percent majority in November 2008. It applied to all manufacturers but was aimed primarily at Chevron, the nation's second-largest oil company.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/12/24/BAGB1B9D9E.DTL&tsp=1

[bluestateguy]

1. Rulings should be ignored from activist judges who legislate from the bench.

Collect the tax anyway.

[avaistheone1]

9. I like how you think.

lol

[24601]

53. By your standard, schools would still be segregated. Any judge

that sits by and does not intervene while the other two government branches take unconstitutional actions is more activist than a judge who strikes down improper actions.

Looking at the judicial branch in isolation does not tell you if the overall effect is activist or not. Judicial activism should be judged on the holistic effect of government.

Exemplar (hypothetical of course) Congress passes and a President signs a sweeping Patriot Act that has provisions of questionable constitutionality. An activist judge upholds the law and lets government implement improper actions. A non-activist judge intervenes and restrains a government that is overreaching it's constitutional powers.

[Mudoria]

2. Seems a reasonable ruling based on the law

according to the article. Appears the state would have to change the law for the city to tax Chevron.

[FreakinDJ]

3. Chevron Corp has been debating leaving Richmond CA

because of this crap

That would mean the loss of 3 - 4000 good paying jobs Richmond and Contra Costa County desperately need as well as $10s of $Millions in community grants Chevron donates to the community and an additional Several $Million in anual property taxes to the state

[Downwinder]

4. How far is the refinery above sea level? n/t

[FreakinDJ]

5. Also the "Cleanest Refinery in the Country"

They do more to mitigate emissions, releases, and spills then any other refinery in the country

[LeftyMom]

8. BULLSHIT. That refinery was built in 1902.

It's had repeated explosions due to worn out, outdated equipment, and fines due to unacceptably high releases of toxic chemicals (in some years they average almost one a day) are very frequent. The nearby groundwater is extremely polluted with chemicals from the refinery.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Typical ill-informed Greener Responce - Off Shore the Pollution

Preferrably some far away place like China so the air pollutents can drift over all of the USA and Canada.

All of what you claimed happened way before EPA Standards were ever dreamed of. And if your using HI POLLUTION Products from China you are more of problem then Chevron is

Yes - and I can't tell you how many "TCE (Trichloroethylene) Ground Water Scrubbers" I've installed because the Federal Government's guide line originally called for the end user to dispose of it in an Evaporation pond

But Since the advent of Clean Air / Clean Water / EPA Standards, Chevron at Richmond has far exceeded the standards required by law Of course they could move the operations south of the border and say FUCK YOU and pollute to their hearts content using cheap foriegn labor, and YOU would still be buying their gas, oil, and other products.

Ask your self a couple of questions before you condemm Chevron for their activities

Do you drive a car
Own a computer
Use Electricity
Heat your home
Eat Food grown on corporate farms
Use the internet

[LeftyMom]

11. Let me put it that way, if that is the cleanest refinery in the country, than we're fucked.

And don't make this personal. Trust me, it's a bad idea for you.

[FreakinDJ]

13. I've worked in refineries all over the USA

It is the cleanest.

Lady - you have no idea

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreakinDJ]

21. From the Trully Uninformed

Even Obama has suggested bringing Manufacturing back to America would allow us to better regulate and mitigate the pollution that is presently going on overseas

Would it be better to move operations to Mexico or China where they have no emission standards

Because that is all the Green Movement has accomplished so far

Are you going to stop buying gas
Stop riding the bus
Stop riding your bike on those "Rubber Tires"

Didn't think so.....

[LeftyMom]

24. Nobody's going to move oil refineries away from the consumer, the economics don't work.

Especially in California where state mandates for clean air mean we get different gas formulations than the surrounding states. You know that so stop bullshitting and pretending that we have to let Chevron poison the people of Richmond (who nobody cares about because they have too little money and too much skin pigmentation) or they'll move the plant overseas. If they could have, they already would have. The plant has to be in California, in a protected spot with access to the water. There are only so many places that can be, and most of the rest are either protected or long since taken. If the whole plant disappeared tomorrow, Chevron would put another in on the same spot. If the regulations were tightened up, they'd deal, because California is too big a market to ignore.

And as I said before, you don't want to turn this into some carbon footprint pissing contest.

[FreakinDJ]

26. Yes the economics work - again with the BS Mom

That is exactly what Chevron Corp is considering at present.

Its not like your going to stop buying the product or any thing like that.

They already have their own infrastructure, tanker ships, and storage facilities. What is to prevent them from doing just that

Your going to take your Ball and Go Home??

Lot of good that will do

[LeftyMom]

27. Oh, you want to talk economics? Chevron is externalizing costs.

They make money, and they make other people pay for the costs associated with their product, in this case the health problems they cause to people in Richmond. Yet you oppose the people of Richmond taxing Chevron to recoup their costs in hosting the plant? Are the people of Richmond supposed to suck it up and keep letting their kids get sick? Or do you just not give a fuck because they're overwhelmingly poor and persons of color? I'm guessing the latter, Mr. I Live In A White Flight Exurb. Environmental justice in this country is overwhelmingly an issue of race and class- nobody's going to build a leaky, accident-prone refinery in Rocklin, are they? White people with money don't have to deal with things like that, and that's why nobody in power gives a damn about cleaning up the refinery.

[FreakinDJ]

31. You can't prove anyone is getting sick - just more BULLSHIT

Show us all........... please please please

And as far as the people of Richmond are concerned, I'm sure they rather have their jobs more then some Wacko cooking up phony analyst

but thanks for playing anyway

[LeftyMom]

33. Contra Costa County has data on their asthma rates.

Twice as high in Richmond as in the rest of the county, it's right on their website.

"Numerous areas in the County have child hospitalization rates higher than the state average. Some communities, such as Richmond, have child hospitalization rates nearly twice as high as the state average, a sign of health disparities within the County. (Office of Statewide Development and Planning, CA Dept. of Health Services, 2000)" http://cchealth.org/topics/asthma/

But, you know, they probably made that up to discredit the environmental movement and make you look bad. Damned doctors.

[FreakinDJ]

35. Did you even read the information at the link you provided

Scroll down to - Blue print for Asthma Action:
Executive Summary for Contra Costa County (255k PDF, 2pp.)

For example some areas of Western Contra Costa County have an estimated 6 times more diesel pollution per square mile then county as a whole and 40 times more then the State average
http://cchealth.org/topics/asthma/pdf/blueprint_for_asthma_executive_summary.pdf

Even they are not blaming the Chevron Refinery. (I'm sure you'll find a conspiracy there of course) Sounds more like all the Truck Traffic from I-80, SF Bay Area, and the Port of Oakland

But you do know you have 3 other refineries in Contra Costa County that make the Chevron facility look clean enough to eat off of - right

[LeftyMom]

37. Oh sure, it's not the flares.

:eyes: Of course they're tiptoeing around the Chevron issue. They have lawyers on staff and no desire to clean up their act.

If the real issue were I-80 or the Port of Oakland, than instead of Richmond having the highest asthma hospitalization rate in the state, it would be Oakland or Alameda or Berkeley or El Cerrito, because they're all along the highway and closer to the Port of Oakland than Richmond is, which is obvious based on the fact that the Port of Oakland in Oakland, which is not Richmond, and isn't even the same county.

[FreakinDJ]

38. I knew you would find a conspiracy theory there

The CDC, The National Public Health Tracking Program, The California Endowment, and The Contra Costa Health Services - their all in on it together

Its a conspiracy I tell ya......

Thanks for the laugh :yourock:

:crazy::spank: :crazy::spank: :crazy: :spank::crazy:

I'm not going to "Tip Toe" around the issue - Has Chevron Richmond had fires - yes, every Chemical Facility has. Are they any worse then others - no, not by far. If you want to see some great fires check BP at Texas City. Have they ever spilled oil - of course they have. But they also have a HUGE program cleaning up the refinery as well. Did they always have such a program to mitigate pollution - No, no one did before we knew it was killing us. You got to remember the facility is over 100 years old

All things told, I've worked in Refineries, Chemical Processing Facilities, Semiconductor Manufacturing, Thin Film Coating Facilities and many others all over the United States. I've worked in Energy Conservation Engineering, Environmental Clean Up Mitigation projects as well as general Electrical Controls Engineering. Is Chevron spending the money and doing every thing possible to be a good corporate neighbor - Undeniably YES they are

Good Night and Merry Christmas

PS: Please excuse my naturally asshole demeanor

[LeftyMom]

40. Way to not address what I actually said.

How can you blame the Port of Oakland for high asthma rates in Richmond when it's 15 miles away, but not the 107 year old, leaky, accident prone oil refinery right there in town? That's either a blatant attempt to confuse the issue or pure stupidity.

[FreakinDJ]

41. Mom - all those credible sources don't blame the refinery either

They attribute the High Asthma Rates on Diesel Emissions. Considering the amounts of Federal Funding they recieve I would assume they have the credible research to back it up too.

Actually Chevron has a Zero Release Policy (0% flare aqctivity and much more)at the Richmond Refinery. Its not like the refiners in Texas, Louisiana and the rest of the world that flare 24/7


BP - Texas City


Nanjing, China


China


Chevron Richmond

[LeftyMom]

42. Chevron's own website contradicts you on that one and says they use flares at that plant.

Oil refining is a dynamic process and requires extensive monitoring and pressure control within the system. When operating conditions change flares may be used as part of the process to ensure that refinery equipment is operated safely. In most circumstances, the hydrocarbons are recovered and reused in the refining process. However, in some cases residual hydrocarbons are burned off.

http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/richmond/safety/operations.aspx

[Occulus]

44. .

whoops

[FreakinDJ]

50. The operative phrase would be ........

In most circumstances, the hydrocarbons are recovered and reused in the refining process

Now to be able to asses a Refiner's true sincerity towards total reductions in "Flair Activity" you would have to find out the capacity of the refiner's "Flare Gas Recovery" compressors. Those are the systems used to mitigate Flare Incedents.

BTW: Is it preferable to use a "Flare System" verses a possible explosion or other wise unmitigated release

[LeftyMom]

54. Nice backpedal. nt

[FreakinDJ]

55. You do realise you replied to your own post don't you

not to mention you have yet to address the "Debunking" of what you thought was conclusive proof

No Big Deal - Merry Christmas Mom

[Lionel Mandrake]

23. It was their first refinery. Their second was El Segundo.....nt

[thelordofhell]

52. I left my wallet there

[LeftyMom]

6. And the end of an ongoing environmental and health disaster.

Chevron refuses to upgrade to modern pollution control equipment, and accidents at the refinery and health problems in the surrounding area are unacceptably high as a result. If Chevron were a good neighbor then the people of Richmond would treat them like one.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

14. Oh contraire. I have citations.

The basic information I conveyed came from pages 192-198 of The Tyranny of Oil by Antonia Juhasz. Additional information on plant explosions can be easily obtained via local media, which you know as well as I do since we live in the same media market and the not infrequent accidents and near disasters make the news here.

[FreakinDJ]

18. You got nothin - just more lies

Its folk like you that discredit the entire Green Movement in America

Thanks

[LeftyMom]

20. Books, and news reports, and gov't reports full of lies. Made it all up to win an argument on DU.

Chevron is really a responsible corporate citizen, people imagine the explosions and foul smells from their plant, and of course all those sick people in Richmond and scientists measuring the air and ground water nearby are faking it to make you look bad.

That totally makes sense.

I'm sorry those poor kids in Richmond keep faking asthma attacks so convincingly that they get hospitalized at twice the background rate in Contra Costa county. They really should stop doing that to tweak you, it's horribly mean.

[FreakinDJ]

22. Got a Link LeftyMom

all talk and lots of Bullshit being spread around

[LeftyMom]

25. I posted the name and page numbers of the book with information on the plant I cited.

Explosions on the plant are local news here, I know they broke into every channel in 2007 to tell people in the area to stay inside because of the fire, and of course the hospitalization of thousands in 1999 was major news.

Please stop playing dumb and shilling for your industry. Thanks!

[Occulus]

43. Hey FreakinDJ, I did one hell of a lot more than dig up a few links

You could also title this "there's more than one way to skin a cat", because you are about to get verbally skinned and gutted. Read on for your oh-so-deserved helping of hot crow.

I installed the Google Earth Pollution Layer, which you can get here. It links to the EPA TRI Explorer Reports (TRFA) for over 33,000 North American sites that reported pollution releases in 2004 (as the note that follows states, that may not be the only data available). I use a quad core AMD CPU and two video cards running together and it still bogged Google Earth down to a crawl. It's totally astonishing when you actually see it; the entire eastern half of the US looks like one big pile of pollution events.

Then I found this note at the bottom of (at least) the Chevron report page, which contradicts the date range information at the link I gave above:

Note: Reporting year (RY) 2008 is the most recent TRI data available. Facilities reporting to TRI were required to submit RY 2008 data to EPA by July 1, 2009. TRI Explorer is using a "frozen" data set based on submissions as of September 17, 2009 and released to the public in December 2009 for the years 1988 to 2008 (i.e., revisions submitted to EPA after this time are not reflected in TRI Explorer reports). TRI data may also be obtained through EPA Envirofacts

!! Note: the links that follow are kind of slow to respond. Please wait for the page to come up. !!

So ?

What is the TRI Explorer?

The TRI Explorer provides access to the Toxics Release Inventory (TRI) data to help communities identify facilities and chemical disposal or other release patterns that warrant further study and analysis. Combined with hazard and exposure information, the TRI Explorer can be a valuable tool for risk identification.

My one and only question regarding what I'm about to post applies to the dates involved (I'll presume for now that the EPA dates as given are correct). If anyone can clear up that haze of confusion, I'd appreciate it. Ah, well- on to the vicious part.

I'll begin by stating baldly that I now believe you to be knowingly lying.

This is the data the EPA collected from the Chevron Products Company Richmond Refinery located at 841 Chevron Way, Contra Costa, CA. There's a neat little table on the page:

Reported TRI Chemical Data
(in pounds, for all chemicals reported in 2005)

Total On-site Releases: 1,106,526
Total Off-site Releases: 202,562
Total Transfers Off-site for Further Waste Management: 318,691
Total Waste Managed: 2,275,116

2.2 MILLION pounds of pollutants released from this site. The date ranges are (I believe deliberately) confusing given the note at the top of this post; however, given your enthusiastic defense of Chevron, I thought perhaps those levels of pollution were not in fact unique to Chevron, but rather tracked in much the same way across all polluting industries (including BP and Conoco Phillips, which I'll mention in a moment). So, I started looking at the various EPA TRI Explorer data for other pollution sites local to the Richmond area.

Here's the British Petroleum reported chemical data:

Reported TRI Chemical Data
(in pounds, for all chemicals reported in 2005)

Total On-site Releases: 2,740
Total Off-site Releases: 3
Total Transfers Off-site for Further Waste Management: 59,121
Total Waste Managed: 204,567

And here's the Conoco Philips data:

Reported TRI Chemical Data
(in pounds, for all chemicals reported in 2005)

Total On-site Releases: 9,533
Total Off-site Releases: 1
Total Transfers Off-site for Further Waste Management: 26
Total Waste Managed: 9,613

How cute; there's contact information given in every report for each of the over 33,000 sites. Useful, that.

You implied upthread that these two facilities polluted more than the Chevron one, but as reported (are those pollution event reports voluntary?) in the EPA TRI data, they were not only nowhere near as bad as the Chevron facility, but by comparison, were in fact almost clean enough to serve dinner on.

I started checking other industrial sites in the Richmond area, and there was nothing even close to the levels of pollutants Chevron released from its Richmond refinery. I can't bring myself to believe that Chevron cleaned up its act as much as you seem to be implying that they have over the course of the last five or six years, and given who the President and EPA officials were during that period, I have no reason to believe they even tried.

You are lying, FreakinDJ; I think you're doing it deliberately. I'm looking at the hard EPA data, the damning proof against you. I have it up, in my browser right now, and there aren't any more polluting sites than the Chevron refinery anywhere in that county. I've looked at all the ones I can find using that layer and none of them- not one- come within a country mile of the pollutants released by the Chevron refinery.

If you can call the EPA TRI Explorer data a "conspiracy", I want some of what you're smoking. In the meantime, enjoy your helping of hot, steaming crow.

[LeftyMom]

45. This is a fantastic post, I hope everybody takes a look at it. nt

[Occulus]

47. I had zero knowledge of this topic prior to my post.

Let me say that a different way. I had never ever once even heard of the pollutaion caused by Chevron in and around the city of Richmond until FreakinDJ started clawing your face off like a Left 4 Dead "witch" on the issue. I'm totally impartial; I don't live anywhere near there and have no ties to any environmental group or charity or conservation group.

You were right; FreakinDJ is in 180 degree opposition to the studied and published facts. He's wrong, and his personal attacks on you seem to indicate that he knows it.

Or, as they started saying on another thread... ka-CHING!

[FreakinDJ]

49. Without being too sarcastic - it had a few Flaws in it

please check out this post Mom

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4198120&mesg_id=4198472

[FreakinDJ]

48. Honestly - I'm stunned

First off allow me to commend you on your internet investigative skills. I'm thoroughly impressed

However being at a geographical disadvantage and as you said yourself ( I'm totally impartial; I don't live anywhere near there) allow me to correct a few discrepancies in your findings.

BP British Petroleum does not have an Oil Refinery in the San Francisco Bay area. What they do have is called a "Bulk Oil Terminal". That is the place where those Great Big Oil Tanker Trucks fill up with gasoline and diesel to distribute to the gas stations where you buy your gas. They do not process crude oil or any other chemicals for that matter. That is why by comparison those numbers looked so low. Actually - if they employed the same standards as Chevron those number would be far less

Secondly - the data you accumulated for Conaco Philip's was similarly flawed. Again you were looking at a Bulk Oil Terminal or what we can call a Petroleum Transfer Station.

The correct data for the Conoco Oil Refinery would be here

CONOCO PHILLIPS SAN FRANCISCO REFINERY
Address: 1380 SAN PABLO AVE
RODEO, CA 94572
County: CONTRA COSTA
Public Contact: MARK HUGHES
Phone Number: 510 245-4400

Reported TRI Chemical Data
(in pounds, for all chemicals reported in 2005)

Total On-site Releases: 246,811
Total Off-site Releases: 43,085
Total Transfers Off-site for Further Waste Management: 97,408
Total Waste Managed: 469,032

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?TRI=94572NCLSNOLDHI&YEAR=2005&VIEW=TRFA&TRILIB=TRIQ0&sort=_VIEW_&sort_fmt=1&_SERVICE=oiaa&_PROGRAM=xp_tri.sasmacr.tristart.macro

Here is another Oil Refinery in Contra Costa County

TESORO REFINING & MARKETING CO
Address: 150 SOLANO AVE
MARTINEZ, CA 94553
County: CONTRA COSTA
Public Contact: MIKE MARCY
Phone Number: 925 372-3093

Reported TRI Chemical Data
(in pounds, for all chemicals reported in 2005)

Total On-site Releases: 2,243,953
Total Off-site Releases: 255,617
Total Transfers Off-site for Further Waste Management: 262,694
Total Waste Managed: 3,280,993

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?TRI=94553TSCCRAVONR&YEAR=2005&VIEW=TRFA&TRILIB=TRIQ0&sort=_VIEW_&sort_fmt=1&_SERVICE=oiaa&_PROGRAM=xp_tri.sasmacr.tristart.macro

Heck I remember when they used to call that place the "Widow Maker"

So now lets put this RAW DATA into perspective with Crude Oil Refining Capacity per day

CHEVRON USA INC California RICHMOND 245,271 barrels per day

TESORO REFINING & MARKETING CO California MARTINEZ 166,000 barrels per day

CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY California RODEO 120,200 barrels per day

As it appears Tesoro has 2 times the Total On-Site Releases while only processing 2/3 the amount of crude oil. Additionally at first glance Conoco Philips would appear to be a comparative "Knight in Shinning Armor". That is of course until you look a little more closely. Or at least about a mile south of the main facility

CONOCO PHILLIPS CARBON PLANT
Address: 2101 FRANKLIN CANYON RD
RODEO, CA 94572
County: CONTRA COSTA
Public Contact: MARK HUGHES
Phone Number: 510 245-4400

Reported TRI Chemical Data
(in pounds, for all chemicals reported in 2005)

Total On-site Releases: 108,038
Total Off-site Releases: 316
Total Transfers Off-site for Further Waste Management: 316
Total Waste Managed: 108,356

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?TRI=94572TSCSF2101F&YEAR=2005&VIEW=TRFA&TRILIB=TRIQ0&sort=_VIEW_&sort_fmt=1&_SERVICE=oiaa&_PROGRAM=xp_tri.sasmacr.tristart.macro

OK - lets quit mincing words here. Lets go straight to the Super Villains of Oil Refining Fugitive air Releases. Scroll down on the report to Benzine, click the box in the 1st column. In the page of data that comes up lets first concern ourselves with the 2 most important items, "Fugitive Air" and "Stack Air"

Chevron
1990 Fugitive Air 21000, Stack Air 900
2008 Fugitive Air 2000 Stack Air 2300

Ok not good - but lets compare

Tesoro
1990 Fugitive Air 14000 Stack Air 940
2008 Fugitive Air 1300 Stack Air 4700

Conoco
1990 Fugitive Air 2600 Stack Air 1200
2008 Fugitive Air 1900 Stack Air 660

While Chevron and Tesoro have both reduced "Fugitive Air" numbers for Benzine 90% to Conoco's 30% reduction, Chevron's Stack Air increased approx. 250% while Tesoro's Stack Air release of Benzine increased 500%

Why would any facility increase their Stack Air emissions in this time of Environmentally Consciousness one should wonder? Let me introduce you to......

1995 Fuels Report
California Energy Commission

Publication Number: P300-95-017
REFORMULATED FUELS

and when you compare Refinig capabilities of Barrels per Day to total emissions this is what I mean by Chevron at Richmond is by far the "Cleanest Refinery in the Country" - bar none

BP PRODUCTS NORTH AMERICA INC TEXAS CITY REFINERY
Address: 2401 5TH AVE S
TEXAS CITY, TX 77590
County: GALVESTON
Public Contact: MICHAEL MARR
Phone Number: 409 945-1970


Total On-site Releases: 2,591,915
Total Off-site Releases: 16,898
Total Transfers Off-site for Further Waste Management: 18,032
Total Waste Managed: 11,247,223

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?TRI=77590MCLCM24015&YEAR=2005&VIEW=TRFA&TRILIB=TRIQ0&sort=_VIEW_&sort_fmt=1&_SERVICE=oiaa&_PROGRAM=xp_tri.sasmacr.tristart.macro

Your free to beleive what ever you wish. I am not an employee of Chevron at this nor have I been any time in the past. As I've mentioned in my earlier post. I've worked at almost every refinery in the country, not to mention most of the Semiconductor Manufacturers, Thin-Film Coating Laboratories, and numerous other facilities.

I'll get into that more a little later. Right now its late, It christmas and I think I'll need some sleep before the kids wake up and start opening presents. But I do stand by my prior statement and as the data clearly demonstrates Chevron - Richmond, does, has, a will continue to go above and beyond in its continueing efforts to reduce emissions. Regardless of what ever "lose with the Facts" statements an irresponcible writter wishes spew.

Good Night Ladys and Merry Christmas

[mbperrin]

51. Worked at almost every refinery in the country?

Really? How about these?
Cosden - Big Spring, TX
Odessa Natural Gasoline Plant - Odessa, TX
Judkins Plant - Ector County, TX
Shell Refinery - Odessa, TX
Phillips Plant - Goldsmith, TX.

Just curious.

[FreakinDJ]

28. so factually flawed that its theme can't be taken seriously

You mean this citation

Steve LeVine of the Washington Post have also been dispatched to spread the word that no intelligent, thoughtful person should read this book because it is so factually flawed that its theme can't be taken seriously

[LeftyMom]

30. Your citation for that would be "Kindle user Robert" at Amazon. Credible, I'm sure.

Whoever he is, cutting and pasting his words without citation is naughty. Shame on you.

Having actually read the meticulously documented book and attended two lectures to academic audiences by the author, I assure you it's quite credible and well done. The author knows her material backward and forward, she's sharp as a tack, and her credentials are superb. But I'm sure that, based on having googled up an Amazon review from some dude named Robert, that you're totally qualified to discredit the whole work.

[FreakinDJ]

32. Steve LeVine covers foreign affairs for Business Week

and....

Center for Investigative Reporting
131 Steuart Street Suite 600
San Francisco, California 94105
United States

He called your friend a BULLSHIT ARTIST

[LeftyMom]

34. Oh yes, Business Week is well known to for their hard-hitting criticisms of major companies.

:rofl: Pull the other one.

The author isn't my friend. I think I shook her hand after a presentation I attended and thanked her for the information, but so did a few hundred other people.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreakinDJ]

19. You can't even quite formulate a decent insult on your own

Ah the minds of Babes.....

[ShamelessHussy]

29. a reflection of it's source

which was the point.

[Trajan]

39. Egads ...

The meaness of the world, intruding on the DU idyll ...

[tblue]

7. That's good cuz Chevron execs could use the money

more than the people of snobby, tony Richmond......not!

[ShamelessHussy]

17. Our system is designed and aligned in the interest of the corporate elite

Their main mission to protect them from the people.

In other words, who cares what they think.

[greengestalt]

36. We need to protest by Jury Nullification

It's used all the time, such as in inner cities to keep "Gangbangers" on the streets. In short, there's tons of precedent for it.

Look up Jury Nullification, pretend you know nothing about it, but then also consult a lawyer so that if they try to punish you for it, you'll sue the city/state for millions for "Human rights violations"


How many people FILL the jails? How many could you let off without hurting, only helping society? About all of them.

Most notably:

1. Tax/Fine protesters.
2. Old hippies and other "420" crowd with the wrong plants in their basements... "I support Medical Marijuana and I think I'm developing Glaucoma myself."
3. People who did "Victimless" crimes, like drugs, prostitutes.
4. People who steal, but ONLY from big businesses -especially- "the poor single mother who steals food to feed her baby" who is sickeningly much more common. Theft is wrong, and indeed ideally should be punished, but there's a "Highest" authority to settle that score, in the world of here and now there should indeed be a 'hierarchy' of what is and is not seen as a crime.
----Social Banditry: "I never robbed a poor man yet, nor any tradesman I beset. But I robbed Lords and Ladies fine, and I carried the gold home to my Heart's Design."
5. A vile drunken brute who stabs another drunken brute and both are not innocent. "Thanks for the Darwin Award, maybe we'll also thank someone who gives YOU a Darwin Award next drunken brawl."
6. People who might be guilty of nasty stuff, but keep it outside the USA and only in fantasy IN the USA. "Not Guilty. With all due respect your honor, we feel far more 'raped' by you letting off that financial parasite last week. Chester M. Goes to Asia when he has the itch for real, the rest is on his Hard Drive and in his sick head. To Chester M. Keep it in your computer, your head or outside the USA's borders or we'll form a lynch mob for you."
----To anyone screaming bloody murder over the last part, take note that such a 'trade' feeds people and keeps them alive and the few places it's stopped there has been mass starvation since all the "Moralist Crusaders" just tossed a few Chick Tracts and left once they achieved their mission. Then the local Generalismo re-opened the thing once the heat was down cause he needed the bribe money.

[New Dawn]

46. More BS from right-wing judges.