Sarkozy orders bill on banning full Islamic veils

[pampango]

Source: BBC

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered parliament to debate a law banning women from wearing full-face Islamic veils in public, officials say. Last year he said such veils oppressed women and were not welcome in France.

The proposal has provoked intense debate about religious freedom in a secular society, as well as the position of Muslims in France.

The country's highest administrative body has suggested such a law might be unconstitutional. The State Council said last month any such law could be in violation of the French constitution as well as the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

The interior ministry says only 1,900 women wear full veils in France, home to Europe's biggest Muslim minority.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8635178.stm

[Warpy]

1. Good, those things are dangerous around machinery

and better suited to a desert society that still runs on animal power. What women wear in their own homes is not a matter for public health and safety, though.

The hijab should never be banned.

[DRex]

4. While I appreciate the sentiment....

of trying to rid the world of such ridiculous things as facial coverings, making a mode of dress illegal cannot and should not be the way to combat it.

Instead, we need to protect free-speech rights so that we can all loudly voice our disapproval without fear of reprisal.

[Warpy]

5. Public health and safety are concerns

Again, what they do at home is nobody's business. There is modest clothing which is what the Quran tells women to wear which is not a hazard.

While I think it's a losing battle to dictate fashion to women, health and safety issues should override it.

It's harder to conceal bombs under conventionally modest clothing and a hijab.

[wtmusic]

15. Can't wait to see the wording on this.

A full-face veil, vs. a 7/8 face veil (gendarmes, man your measuring tapes).

A Muslim veil, vs an Yves St. Laurent veil.

:silly:

[Warpy]

19. Yeah, no kidding

I'd like to ban those stupid Yves St. Laurent things, too, but fortunately they've gone out of style.

Still, the wording is going to be fun to watch.

[DRex]

17. But where does it stop?

I see a lot of Mennonite women that look like they could be smuggling contraband underneath their modest garb.

I agree that it's a problem, but I'm not willing to part with basic rights and freedoms to combat it. We can surely find a better way.

[Flaneur]

2. I can't support government-mandated dress codes.

And neither, apparently, can the French constitution or the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

Bad Sarkozy. Please go away.

[liberation]

3. The freedom to subjugate women is not considered a "fundamental" freedom

... at least not in Europe.

[Flaneur]

10. And if a woman wants to go around veiled?

[wtmusic]

12. It has to be a Christian veil, or a Jewish veil

Veils of secrecy are OK too.

[wtmusic]

11. You would have to prove that all Muslim women are wearing them against their will

Good luck.

[liberation]

14. Well, I assume some people may actually enjoy being slapped, abused, and humiliated

... alas, I don't see that red herring being used against the passing of legislation criminalizing domestic violence.

And who knows, maybe some Jewish people really liked the color yellow and David's stars, so much so they didn't mind having them placed on their coats for all to see.


We can pretend to ignore the context of a piece of garment all we want. But I don't care for fish today, much less herring.

[wtmusic]

16. You seem very comfortable imposing your context on the garment

Scroll 2/3 of the way down the page to see video of a self-confident British woman who wears a face veil because she wants to.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36686496/ns/world_news-europe/

While you may consider it subjugation, maybe we should listen to the people who actually wear them, no?

[liberation]

24. Care to explain what my "context" is?

I don't know personally that "self confident" British lady, however I am very well aware of the actual connotations of what a full face veil is intended to signify.

I could interview a self confident sadomasochist, and follow exactly your logic and make a case for the tolerance of domestic abuse. Except, I would at least be slightly intellectually honest and I would not pretend that I would be making so in the name of "freedom." I don't think some of you understand that the acceptance of the abuse by the victim, should not make the abuse any more tolerable by society.

What some of you are trying to tap dance your way around is the meaning of that very specific piece of clothing.

Cheers.

[wtmusic]

27. Shall we choose your definition of subjugation, or Andrea Dworkin's?

In that case we would have to outlaw intercourse.

And then...and then...we end up right back at something like a theocracy.

Odd how that works.

[krabigirl]

22. Many women choose to wear these veils. Who cares?

[AngryAmish]

20. The government mandates that I wear pants

fucking library...what a bunch of jerks...

[wtmusic]

38. LOL only in Reference, in Periodicals you should be good to go. nt

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

42. what about psychotic misogynist mandated dress codes?

Is that cool?

[leftynyc]

6. If he words the law

that you cannot cover your face, I'm fine with that. But to discriminate against one religion is wrong (and likely unconstitutional).

[liberation]

7. Not really

It would be like claiming that anti-theft legislation unfairly targets and discriminates thieves.

[nyy1998]

8. Don't know where I stand on this issue....Muslim-Europe relations haven't been very good

Muslims in France and Germany have done a terrible job of assimiliating to their new culture and they oppose any assimilating, as compared to the numerous Muslim Americans(including a few friends) here who do a great job of joining American society....That said, if you recall the protests in Paris from a few years ago, the French aren't exactly the model for race relations either. This is the wrong idea by Sarkozy as this will probably enflame the French Muslim community), but I don't know of any alternatives since doing nothing hasn't been working either.

[Laughing Mirror]

9. NIcolas Sarkozy, staunch defender of the dignity of women, excepts those in veils

Ain't that a laugh.

I think, as Warpy pointed to upthread, what really frightens Sarkozy is his fear that concealed behind that veiled woman in the flowing outfit is a suicide bomber.

[unabelladonna]

29. so?

how would you feel about someone wearing a ski mask to go shopping or banking? the veil and ski mask hide your identity. if this is repugnant to the women in question perhaps they shouldn't be living in france.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. I don't care what his motivation is,

enforcing secularism is good policy

[apnu]

13. Boy oh boy, France really wants a reckoning with its growing Islamic population. Stupid move (nt)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Sarkosy's in major hot water, so he reaches out to ultra rightwingers.

Like so many American republicans, I guess.

[krabigirl]

21. Yikes.

What if you aren't Muslim? Can you wear veils?

I'm not religious, but I fully support freedom of religious expression. Many women choose to wear these, and should be able to. WHy does it offend others so much? Mind your own damn business.

The people who did 9/11 didn't wear veils..(of course, they weren't women either, but still.)

[liberation]

25. It is about full face veils, not plain hijabs

If you're going to fish for red herrings, at least make sure you are near the correct fishing ground ;-)

The ban is for these:


Not these:

[Patsy Stone]

23. Worst idea ever?

Maybe not, but a terrible one nonetheless.

[proteus_lives]

26. If it passes it will be the opening move in France's next series of riots.

[uppityperson]

28. Good for him.

[Odin2005]

30. Is it funny or sad that a French conservative is more leftwing then a US Democrat?

I agree with this.

[boppers]

31. Denying personal freedom is leftwing?

When did that happen?

[Odin2005]

36. Defending the oppression of women is left-wing?

[boppers]

41. Would you deny my clothing rights?

What is the dress code you would require me to live under?

Perhaps dress codes are wrong.

[alp227]

32. George Orwell in his classic novel Nineteen Eighty-Four: "Freedom is slavery"

That's what Sarkozy thinks in Newspeak. He perceives Muslim women's traditional garb as slavery. Oh, the irony!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

33. I bet not all face coverings will be banned

certain classes of people will still be allowed to hide their faces

[onenote]

34. will the bill only apply to women? only to full face covering worn by those of a certain religion

If a non-muslim woman put on the same full face mask for a halloween party, would that be a violation of the law? What if a guy did? If muslim women started wearing ski masks lawfully worn by others would that be illegal?

Is the underlying motivation safety concerns or is it women's freedom. If its the latter, then what about other religions that dictate what women can/can't wear?
If its safety concerns, are all forms of baggy or free flowing dress suspect?
If its that the person's identity is obscured, does that mean halloween and mardi gras masks should be made illegal? What about masks worn to filter the air?

[PassingFair]

35. People in my city are not supposed to enter banks or party stores...

with masks or hoods drawn over their faces.

They should come off in stores and schools
and other public venues.

[riderinthestorm]

37. Yup, we can and do have governmentally imposed dress codes about what we can (or can't)wear publicly

This is a misogynistic garment of the worst sort. It's interesting that the US and Europe (and most western cultures/countries) have dress codes for women in place that we've adhered to for centuries without any kind of outcry about bigotry. For example, we've outlawed strong matriarchal traditions of toplessness in our countries that are cultural and religiously appropriate in other places (like Australian Aborigines for example).

Everyone's been okay with that, but now you have a clearly misogynistic garment and cultural relativists are suddenly up in arms about "imposing a dress code". Women (and men) all over Europe have adhered to governmentally enforced dress codes in their public sphere for centuries.

Bottom line is that in most western cultures, going topless isn't considered appropriate. Just like covering the face isn't considered appropriate. We can and do have dress codes the government enforces. Why does this garment suddenly get a pass?

[fifthoffive]

39. Thank you!

You have expressed my view on this issue much better than I could have.

[onenote]

44. and if the law generally prohibits covering the face it would be one thing

but as I understand it (and I haven't seen the actual language) this law isn't going to prohibit someone from wrapping a scarf around their face, or wearing a bag over their head as a symbolic protest or from wearing a mardi gras mask or any other form of halloween mask or costume mask. In fact, it doesn't prevent a man from wearing a full face covering if he chose to do so.

As for the misogynistic character of full face veils -- well, one might argue that a lot of French fashions (stilletto heels?) are misogynistic. One might argue that hiring a woman to dance naked for a room full of men reflects a pretty misogynistic. But those things aren't barred.

Banned or allowed? http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/10/04/gaultier_narrowweb__300x504,0.jpg

[slackmaster]

40. Good. I can't wait to see what kind of uniforms the "Police de Mode" will be wearing.

:rofl: