Trouble erupts as protesters try to storm Greek parliament

[Lars77]

Source: BBC News

Greek police officers fired tear gas at protesters trying to break through a police line in front of the parliament.

The trouble began as thousands gathered in Athens, part of a nationwide anti-austerity strike. The protests are a result of the spending cuts and tax rises the government will have to make to meet EU requirements as part of a 110 million Euro rescue package.

Malcolm Brabant reports from Athens.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8662117.stm

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Major rioting in Athens today.

[ShortnFiery]

1. I've been watching the situation in Greece unfold on EuroNews and France24 ...

If you get tired of our USA media whores obsess over the "dud bomb" in Times Square, watch how fired-up the citizenry is in Greece? I wonder if us Americans can turn off our reality shows long enough to hit the streets with half as much vigor as the Greeks and the French WHEN the powers that be come for OUR Pensions? :shrug:

[Lars77]

4. Well you do have the tea party

which mostly consists of small groups of people with signs standing on street corners trying to get people to honk as they pass by.

I guess if you want to have a large scale protest you're going to have to get people out of their cars (and not onto their golf carts).

[ShortnFiery]

7. I don't claim the tea party ... I wonder where liberals are? ... the middle class liberals, that is,

not the ones who are part of the super-rich?

[Xithras]

30. You know, I think I know what the difference with the U.S. is there.

The largest city in Greece is Athens. It is the capital.
The largest city in France is Paris. It is the capital.
The largest city in Britain is London. It is the capital.
The largest city in Germany is Berlin. It is the capital.
The largest city in Spain is Madrid. It is the capital.

I could go on, but you get the point.

In the U.S.:
The largest city in the U.S. is New York. It is not the capital.
The 2nd largest city in the U.S. is Los Angeles. It is not the capital.
The 3rd largest city in the U.S. is Chicago. It is not the capital.
The 4th largest city in the U.S. is Houston. It is not the capital.
The 5th largest city in the U.S. is Philadelphia. It is not the capital.
The 6th largest city in the U.S. is Phoenix. It is not the capital.
etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
The 27th largest city in the U.S. is Washington DC. It is the capital.

Columbus-frickin-Ohio is bigger than our capital. Unlike EVERY other nation in the world, where the capital is located in the largest (or at least the second or third largest), city in the nation, we moved our centers of power AWAY from the populace. The Greeks, Germans, British, and everyone else can go down, protest their government in the morning, and be home in time for lunch. That's never been the case here. The centers of progressive political activism have always been in our major urban areas. The centers of our political power have not.

It's really no suprise that we don't see this sort of thing here.

[fasttense]

2. I suspect the Stock Market thought that

Greek citizens would whimper quietly as their government enacted "austerity" measures that would destroy their middle class way of life. Instead, it seems the citizens are not big into bailing out banks but starving the people.

The people are not going quietly into that good night.

[ShortnFiery]

3. The Riot Police are scrambling not to be backed into a corner.

Check out EuroNews "No Comment - Athens, Greece" entitled "Riot police clash with protestors during general strike.

Now this is REAL TV! :wow:

[melm00se]

5. Greece is in big trouble

financially and they must address the underlying issues. They are (in no specific order and not all inclusive):

1) a huge amount of people working for the government (that just recycles tax dollars - they produce little or nothing that contributes to the tax base + 2 month "bonus" for public sector and retirees?)
2) ridiculous level of bonuses paid out to government workers (2 months bonus?)
3) pervasive tax evasion (from top to bottom) - estimates put the lost revenue @ $30 billion/year
4) pervasive corruption (in both the private and the public sector)
5) retirement system (too many people are eligible to retire too early)

These and other issues desperately need to be addressed. if the strikes continue and the Greek government backs off, their hole will just continue to get deeper and the hole could collapse irretrievably burying their economy and possibly dragging others along with them.

As much as I support unified action by the People, in this case, their actions may be misguided, shortsighted and dangerous not only to them but also the region.

[ShortnFiery]

6. The Greeks pay higher taxes than us and now the IMF is coming for their Pensions.

They are going to attempt a RAID on Americans' Pension funds in the not too distant future. :wow:

Are we going to GIVE Big Brother Banksters our Social Security and Pensions to prop up the very groups of International Banking CRIMINALS who gambled it away to begin with?

I hope not ... I hope we all hit the streets when they come for entitlements that WE, The American People have paid for in TAXES our entire work life.

God Bless the Greek Protesters. Their actions are SPOT-ON! :patriot:

[Lars77]

8. Ah, so the problem is a large public sector. I thought it was the global financial casino.. nt

[ShortnFiery]

9. Funny? I don't know of ANY government puke job that pays out millions of dollars

in bonuses or golden parachutes like those God Almighty PRIVATE corporations do?

Darn! I missed out onthousands of dollars of severance pay when my government position was phased out decades ago. :eyes:

[melm00se]

11. Spot on?

the Greek government is in such a deep fricking hole it's not even funny:

- This year's deficit in Greece is 13+% of GDP (a "sustainable" level is in the 3-4% of GDP range) and without austerity measures it will continue to grow
- Their public debt is north of $400 billion vs an annual GDP of ~$340 billion (again no austerity = continued growth)
- They don't have the ability to print their own money (with the attendant inflation issues) to help matters out
- Their ability to borrow money (the ONLY way to increase their available cash - see issue above) is sharply curtailed by the perceived risk from lenders that's running interest rates up increasing the Greek debt service.

Point the finger and blaming the "banksters" is part of the problem but should not be construed as the entire (or even the bulk) of the issue. It takes 2 to tango (plus the orchestra plus the dance hall). there is plenty of responsibility to go around.

If the Greeks aren't careful their country might economically implode and as part of the Eurozone they may take Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland (to name just a few) with them which might lead to a far worse situation.

[rpannier]

12. This can possibly be traced to their entry into the EU

They use the Euro and have lost the flexibility that countries like the US and Britain have in manipulating their currency to improve exports.
Had the been using the Drachma they might have been able to do what Korea has done to aid their slow financial recovery -- Devalue their currency and make their exports cheaper and more attractive overseas.

There have been many problems here in Korea with the governments devaluation, but it has been easier to deal with because the Korean government is in control of the process

[ShortnFiery]

17. Not enough capitalism? That's a double edged sword. eom

[rpannier]

22. Either way it's all about capitalism

The Germans are concerned about their economy first, which most countries would be
A Greek Government as part of the EU has no flexibility in dealing with it's own currency because they don't have their own
The German Government and others in the EU are not going to vote to devalue the EU and even if they did, Greece does not benefit because they still fail to become more competitive with countries like Germany and France.

To get a really good idea for one of the reasons why this may get a lot worse is to look at the EU in their dealings with Latvia.
Latvia is using the austerity measure dictated by the EU and it's a whole lot worse

[melm00se]

26. BINGO

the Greece in the EU is akin to the state of Arkansas as part of the USA:

they have no currency of their own that they can manipulate the easy the crisis. The EU's constituent countries have to agree on any monetary actions and fixing Greece might hurt, say, Belgium and solving the Belgian issue may hurt Finland (you get my point).

too many disparate countries without the underlying allegiance to the greater entity that exists in the USA.

[girl gone mad]

27. Yes, you are correct..

and the one above you is incorrect.

The root of their current troubles was a premature adoption of the Euro.

[defendandprotect]

33. Yes - Others have also suggested Euro complicating situation.... where value of

their currency could have just been dropped.

This is what the right wing elites have been working for all over the world!

[defendandprotect]

32. Big trouble created for Greece by Goldman Sachs . . . !!

[Imajika]

10. Waaaa... We overspent and dont want to deal...

...with the consequences.

Waaaa. We elected crooked politicians who we knowingly allowed to govern recklessly for years upon years because we are selfish and live only for today.

Waaaa. We evade our taxes as a national past time. Everyone knows about it, it is a national joke and we don't want to change a thing. We want all our damn services whether we have the money or not. No tough decisions should be made, the EU and IMF should just hand us cash!

And last but not least, when all else fails. Waaaa, this is the fault of the older people. Cut their stuff, not ours.

The Public Employees, Communists, Student Groups sound ridiculous and are only making things worse by shutting down business and causing damage in some of their "protests".

Greece is broke. Deal with it. Don't worry Greece, many countries are not far behind you. You'll get to see a lot of other folks suffering same as you - including the US within probably 20 years.

[melm00se]

13. +1

[Lars77]

14. You make it sound like Greece has been the land of milk and honey for the past decades. nt

[rpannier]

16. Actually of the many issues that have been higlighted as reasons for the economic problems

2 are
Government Corruption and the wealthy hiding their assets to avoid taxes

[Mudoria]

37. I think most of the wealthy Greeks abandoned Greece long ago..

[Imajika]

21. They've had far more milk and honey than they can afford...

They just have too many services which they can't actually afford, their public is sector is bigger than the private sector can support, they cheat on their taxes as a regular part of life, etc, etc.

Definitions of what being the "land of milk and honey" is would obviously differ. Either way, they can't afford the way they've been living.

All that matters is what they can afford. Their current way of living is unaffordable. It really isn't that complicated.

[Lars77]

25. Have you ever been to Greece?

The difference between rich and poor has always been big, and the rich people are not paying their fair share. They never have, since the end of the dictatorship (. It's easy to simply blame the voters, but the system was never good for the working class to begin with. The military junta that ruled Greece from 67-74 was backed by the US by the way.

The fact that you think the rioters are all "Public Employees, Communists, Student Groups" makes me think you've read a bit too much Ayn Rand.


The US is headed the exact same way, and it's not because you have a bloated public sector providing too many services. It's because you have a hugely expensive military empire while no-one wants to pay a dime in tax. You think Greeks are selfish?

So when the US rioting starts, let's see if they're all public employees, communists and students then too.

This is a warning of things to come.

[ShortnFiery]

18. When the IMF comes for your and my Social Security and Pensions in the near future ...

will you say: Thank you Banksters, take my wages too?!?

[girl gone mad]

28. Not accurate.

Greece has cut back government spending. It's the green and grey bars that are the problem. Plunging exports and an erosion of private investment capital.

The unprecedented austerity measures the ignorant IMF is attempting to force upon the Greek workers will only worsen matters.

[killbotfactory]

34. Uh oh, the pro-IMF talking points just got derailed by that chart

On one side you have sleazy banks, the IMF, world bank, corrupt politicians trying to make the other side pay for their mistakes.

On the other you have working people who know they are getting screwed and fighting back the only they have been left with.

Yes, it's all very difficult for me to decide which side I'm on.

[dmallind]

38. Did you read the axis title on that chart?

Government spending continues to increase, just slightly more slwly than before. goevrnment spending is up up up and they simply cannot afford it.

[defendandprotect]

36. IMF isn't "ignornant" ... it's a right wing tool of destruction . . .

[dmallind]

39. Greece has NOT cut back government spending. Read the chart closely

It has merely reduced the rate (slightly) at which government spending is increasing.

[MellowDem]

44. Actually according to that graph...

government spending has actualy continued to grow, though at a less fervant pace. When you're still increasing how much government spends from year to year, I don't think of that as "cutting spending".

[defendandprotect]

35. This is the work of Goldman Sachs . . . and predatory capitalism . . . IMF . . .

We're also on the list!

[Mudoria]

40. Please read up on the situation

before you start spouting the usual nonsense of Goldman Sachs, predatory capitalism and the IMF. None of those had anything to do with the current situation in Greece. They've overspent thier revenues for years on end. Promising big benefits they couldn't afford and allowing the Greeks to evade taxes as a national pastime. Well, the bill has come due and they can't pay it. Goldman helped them hide how bad off they were. They didn't cause it. Predatory capitalism? That caused the corruption in the Greek government and making promises they could never keep? I think not. The IMF? Not an angel by any measure but they didn't put Greece where they are now. All the protestors in the streets are wasting their time unless they can start shitting GOLD bricks. The country is broke and unless the EU rides to the rescue it's going down. If it goes down where do these protestors think the money is going to come from? The tooth fairy?

[defendandprotect]

41. Nonsense . . . take some of your own advice and read up on it . . .

[rpannier]

15. The reporter covering it sounds all excited about the situation nt

[ShortnFiery]

20. The Media outside the USA is more professional, try EuroNews TV or France24? eom

[rpannier]

23. It wasn't USA

It was BBC feed out of Hong Kong

I live in Korea. I only get one US News Network -- CNN International and it sux

on edit:
Thanks for the news suggestions
I will check on line

[ShortnFiery]

24. My sincere empathy.

For a five year stint during the 90s, we lived in remote Panama and then Japan. All we could depend on in English were The Armed Forces TV and Radio Channels. Yes, all two of them, i.e., 1 radio, and 1 TV.

They totally sucked but at least we didn't have to tolerate air-head bimbos ... just cute little Speedy Four (SP4) Army news readers.

Hang in there. :hi:

[bikebloke]

29. I couldn't get EuroNews to play.

A message said it wouldn't play in the US. But I can play France24.

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. Try this link for EuroNews, I just tried it:

Not the greatest bandwidth, but it works:
http://www.ziln.co.nz/channel_detail.php?program_id=12&channel_id=109&promomovie=1

[madrchsod]

19. goldman sachs strikes again....

spain is next....

[defendandprotect]

31. Is this America's future . . . ???

[IndianaGreen]

42. Topple the government or pay the banks

Greeks are voting to topple the government. Good for them!

[Abq_Sarah]

43. Do they think their debt

Will go *poof* if they topple the government?

[IndianaGreen]

46. default is a good thing

particularly if a lot of these countries under the yoke of IMF and World Bank decide to default on their loans.

[Abq_Sarah]

48. If they default

They will be unable to obtain loans. They will be unable to pay for all the benefits they are demanding remain unchanged.

The austerity measures they are facing today would look like a walk in the park compared to what they would have to give up if they defaulted.

[MellowDem]

45. More like topple the government and still pay...

Greeks should topple their crappy ass government, the one they put in place, that's for sure. But if they think their government needs a change, it's obvious their attitude needs to change as well, because they have been electing that crappy ass government year after year.

[Supersedeas]

49. Bankers call them: Barbarians at the Gate

[Odin2005]

50. GO GREEKS!