North Korea artillery fire hits South island / South Korea sending Jets

[1776Forever]

Source: Reuters

SEOUL | Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:22am EST

SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korea on Tuesday fired dozens of artillery shells at a South Korean island, setting buildings on fire and prompting a return fire by the South, Seoul's military and media reports said.

Seoul's YTN television quoted a witness as saying 60 to 70 houses were on fire after the shelling.

The military confirmed the exchange of firing, without providing more details.

(Reporting by Seoul bureau; Writing by Yoo Choonsik; Editing by Jeremy Laurence)

Update: S. Korea says it has scrambled F16 jets after N. Korean island attack - AP (Breaking News Twitter)

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AM0TZ20101123

[Socal31]

1. Not good folks...

[Clio the Leo]

4. nope nt

[Clio the Leo]

2. "S. Korean military says it is on highest non-wartime alert"

"Update: S. Korean military says it is on highest non-wartime alert after the North's shelling of island - Reuters"

http://twitter.com/#!/BreakingNews/status/6960413329592320

[Clio the Leo]

3. 4 S. Korean soldiers wounded...

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/23/0200000000AEN20101123007100315.HTML

[Project Grudge]

5. Reuters: South Korean fighter jets deployed to west coast after shelling by North Korea.

http://twitter.com/skynewsbreak

[Clio the Leo]

6. Reuters - S.Korea top presidential aides meeting in underground bunker at presidential compound

http://twitter.com/#!/Reuters/status/6961676578463744

[Project Grudge]

7. Sounds like this is getting bad

n/t.

[Poll_Blind]

8. As I've said before, this happens all the time. What would be bad is artillery. Wait, WHAT?!

Is this just breaking?

PB

[Clio the Leo]

10. yep ....

.... seems all of the cable news folks have already gone to grandmas for Thanksgiving.

[saigon68]

120. What's Brittany up to?

[Clio the Leo]

9. Live coverage from Al Jazeera (English)

http://openonlinetv.com/aljazeera

[Poll_Blind]

12. And in English, no less! Clio the Leo, you spoil me!

Thank you!

PB

[Clio the Leo]

18. Twitter is the greatest invention ever. nt

[dipsydoodle]

76. Yes - English

Not American. :rofl:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_English. Most of Europe gets gets it as one of numerous satellite or cable tv news channels. Their reporters etc are largely ex BBC whatever.

:hi:

[Turborama]

81. I read recently that Al Jazeera English is available to 80% of homes in the UK on Freeview now

It's not recent news, but I remember reading about it on the Guardian's site just today as I was doing some research on them for an article I'm writing. Is it still only 5 hours a day?

"This is a breakthrough for us; it will give us substantial reach to more than 80% of homes in the UK," said Al Anstey, director of media development for the al-Jazeera Network.

"At three-and-a-half years old we are steadily gaining the reputation and trust and loyalty of our viewers. We offer distinctive content and there is a real appetite for high-quality news. The pain of the economy means the industry is less able to go out and do the job of covering news; this launch on Freeview shows our commitment."

Al-Jazeera English will air live from 6pm to 11pm daily on channel 89 on Freeview. Programming will be a mixture of live news and programmes from the company's studios in London, Washington and Doha.

Current affairs programming includes Frost Over the World, a weekly interview show hosted by Sir David Frost, and The Rageh Omaar Report.

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/jun/30/al-jazeera-english-launch-on-freeview

:hi:

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. Yeah, still 5 hours in the evening - which is the same as CNN International

Freeview is a broadcast terrestrial digital system, in which most channels are free (a few are subscription). I think the channels are multiplexed, which gives them the option of being on for just part of a day (effectively, the bandwidth goes to other channels at other times of the day, eg a children's channel during the daytime, or a sex phone line channel at night). Since it's free to view, I think the channel has to pay something to get broadcast, so they'll only do it at times when it's affordable.

[dipsydoodle]

87. I've got that built into my big flatscreen tv

but because I've got Sky satellite I don't use it especially as HD leaves me stone cold.

:hi: to you too !

[RKP5637]

103. I get it directly on the TV here using Roku roku.com The news is consistently

well done. I wish some of the MSM here in the states was as good. I tried to find out what was happening on cable news and they were bantering around about Prince William's wedding ... and something about Disney not making princess movies anymore ... and then more Palin crap.

Cable news here is poorly done IMO. They cover a lot of crap as important ...

[valerief]

108. US Tabloid Teevee. That's all we got, with very few exceptions. nt

[1776Forever]

13. Interesting - Talking about what China might be able to do - n/t

[Turborama]

44. Apparently that account has been suspended. Here's a link to their official site....

Here (if you have Real Player and hover over the top left hand corner of the screen it will start playing on a separate player): http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now

Higher resolution version available here: http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al-jazeera-english-english

[joshcryer]

54. Thanks. Site probably hit a bandwidth limit rather quickly.

[Clio the Leo]

11. Now CNN is covering. nt

[1776Forever]

16. CNN International streaming video link.............

http://www.justin.tv/hoctoggle#/w/577032448/10

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

58. meanwhile, Drudge's front is still TVA-a-palooza

gotta love how the right suddenly decided that maybe civil liberties outweigh "keepin' us safe."

[SkyDaddy7]

78. I know this NK thing is very serious...

But you are 1000% correct about the Right Wing all of a sudden is worried about civil liberties. WTF? They will argue both sides of every issue & never get called on it by those who follow them...Talk about being sheep!

[Poll_Blind]

14. Can anyon confirm that this is over and done with and not going on anymore, right?

That would be very cool if this was over.

PB

[1776Forever]

19. Check out the link below on the latest streaming from CNN Internaitonal.......

http://www.justin.tv/hoctoggle#/w/577032448/10

[Poll_Blind]

22. t/y!

PB

[reggie the dog]

52. not over

as of 0800 hours gmt bbc reports now that north korea has fired hundreds of rockets into south korea

[jeff47]

116. Over? It's been going on since the 1950s

There was no peace treaty at the end of the Korean War, so technically it never ended.

[Socal31]

15. Just heard on Al Jazeera that the fire is ongoing. From both sides.

[Clio the Leo]

17. Al Jazeera (and unconfirmed) local reports of people killed. nt

[Poll_Blind]

20. Update from Al Jez:

Unconfirmed but:
A number of villagers killed, at least 4 Korean marines wounded, PM meeting in an underground bunker called the "Blue House" (did I hear that right?)

Also, South Korean govt saying they are ceasing fire but reports (which are spotty at best) from the island in question indicate fire is still being exchanged on both sides. Though that's heresay at best.

Speculation about joint naval exercise with US, South Korea "provoking" the attack from North Korea.

OnEdit: And the North Korean government are some real idiotic jackasses, BTW.

PB

[Clio the Leo]

21. Yep, it's the Blue House.... Obama was there last week. nt

[Project Grudge]

23. Speculation about joint naval exercise with US, South Korea "provoking" the attack from North Korea.

Didn't an article come out today saying that North Korea were farther along in nuclear capabilities than previously thought. This event could get South Korea to ask the U.S. for some tactical nukes and in return the U.S. might think this will convince China to clamp down on NK or lower the rhetoric. Plus, President Obama has shown an openness to arms dealing.

[Poll_Blind]

27. We are arms-dealing money whores to be sure, but in this case I believe...

...the U.S. actually always has nuclear stealth bombers in that area because North Korea could actually kill a few million people with the artillery alone that they have and they only thing that could take out that much military hardware (in a very short period of time) would be nuclear weapons.

I could be talking out my ass though, I've got a terrible cold and I'm reaching for more Nyquil.

PB

[Sirveri]

48. All of our stealth bombers are kept stateside.

That said, they have the range, with mid-air refueling, to hit anywhere on earth. It's irrelevant really, since our westpac ballistic missile submarines are probably typically on patrol near enough to that area to hit North Korea. And they could glass every major target in the country with a single missile, of course they're capable of carrying 24 of them...

[Poll_Blind]

51. I'm sure you're right. I think I've been corrected on that point before.

Thankfully, this time I can at least feebly blame the Nyquil.

PB

[name not needed]

40. It's not out of the realm of possibility.

Hell, we're still loaning out nuclear weapons to Germany, the Netherlands, and Italy.

[CreekDog]

24. ugh

i hope this doesn't go as badly as it sounds like it could.

[name not needed]

32. This isn't exactly a rare occurence.

But I have friends stationed in Seoul so it's still a little jarring.

[14thColony]

83. Actually it's so rare it may be very well be unprecedented

Actually firing artillery across the DMZ or NLL? I can't find a previous such incident since the armistice went into force, let alone one where the effect was on South Korea civilians. The NKs and ROKs from time to time trade small calibre fire across the DMZ, up to the level of heavy machine guns, and naval skirmishes out along the NLL have resulted in ships sunk and sailors killed. And they shot down a few US mil aircraft over the sea in the 1960s/1970s. But the NKs to my knowledge have never loosed artillery across the DMZ/NLL, and certainly never a sustained barrage that impacted Southern civilians. And I spent a year over there in HQ USFK Intelligence Directorate watching those guys during some of the big incidents earlier this decade. Those were provocative enough, but at least they were force-on-force and out at sea. But this is a BIG divergence from the historical norm for the Peninsula.

[Poll_Blind]

25. Al Jez reporting initial exchange involved 200 artillery shells.

If that's true that's a lot. But it's actually very very small compared to the kind of artillery NK could unleash if they wanted. Though NK has nukes, it's the artillery that's the biggest fear.

PB

[Kurska]

26. North Korea is a mad dog.

Eventually they are going to bite the wrong person and then god help us all.

[Angry Dragon]

28. The fun never stops

[Socal31]

29. It is really tough to go to sleep when something like this is breaking......

Yikes.

[Clio the Leo]

33. and I was on the way to bed. nt

[rainbow4321]

41. Ditto

All I was doing: taking a last minute look at LBN before lights out. So much for that.

Guess I shoulda picked the Lounge.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

46. ditto.

Surprised more ppl aren't awake.

[joshcryer]

64. Grr, going to have to force myself to sleep, but I'm wide awake now.

[redirish28]

30. Oh man, this isn't a good sign. I have to wonder if something happened

to Kim Jong Il and this was done as a diversion...or worse.

[Clio the Leo]

34. I was wondering the same thing. nt

[name not needed]

38. Maybe he's just really happy that Miley Cyrus is finally 18.

[joshcryer]

53. Hahaha, wtf.

So random and it made me laugh. Thanks for the dark humor.

[The Wizard]

71. Didn't Kim Jong Il

just win the Kentucky Senate seat? Or was it Kim Jong Paul?

[Lasher]

80. No, I think Kim Jong Paul is the Vietcong King

He attacked the Empire State Building or something.

[Adsos Letter]

31. Let me rephrase that...

what do they expect to accomplish by this? I mean, in real terms. Does anyone think there is any chance that any faction of the military will say "Enough!" of this BS, and spark a coup?

[Poll_Blind]

35. If any world leader has a Caligula complex, he would. How can Jove die?

How can Jove die without the world dying?

PB

[KDLarsen]

43. Attention.

It's all Kim Jong Il wants. Attention. He knows he can stretch it pretty far, before anyone even begins to remotely think of military retaliation. Especially now that they've been hinting that they have nuclear weapons.

And South Korea knows what's at stake as well. Seoul, their capital, is one madmans order from being turned to rubble, owing to the countless artillery & rocket pieces aimed at it from just across the DMZ.

[de novo]

95. This may be the first cry of attention from the baby Kim.

The third Kim is set to take over, and I am sure he will want to take his place among his crazy daddy and granddaddy.

[Diclotican]

134. Adsos Letter

Adsos Letter

In any other nations, a factions of the military could say enogh of this and spark a coup to get rid of this regime... But I really dubt it wil happend in NK, as the country is ruled in a way that no other country are.. Its like going back to the 1200s China, where the emperor was good like... And the Nort Koreans are learned from young age for more than 3 generations now, that their leaders IS good like... And it is not easy to do a coup against a good..


On the other side, this artillery shelling of parts of South Korea are not the smartest move NK could do. Why they did it I do not know, but the ailing ilness of "Dear leader" is posible a case.. NK have been more and more acting strange, as the old man is starting to be less and less healty, and I would not be suprised if it all a show of "smoke" so the NK peopole would learn that their "dear leader" is sick, or maybe also dead.. We do not know...

Diclotican

[Clio the Leo]

36. Al Jazeera: 1 S. Korean Marine killed. nt

[Socal31]

37. Interesting look at NK defenses

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?128528-Bluffer-s-guide-Fortress-North-Korea

[pa28]

39. Kim Jong Il seems to think that aggressive activity will make a smooth power transition.

A really big gamble just to make sure his son inherits power.

[Tx4obama]

42. At least one dead, and 15 injured

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- North Korea fired artillery toward its tense western sea border with South Korea on Tuesday, killing at least one South Korean soldier, the Yonhap news agency reported.

Two civilians and 13 other South Korean military personnel were injured, with three of the soldiers seriously hurt, Yonhap said.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/23/nkorea.skorea.military.fire/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

[joshcryer]

45. Here we go.

[reggie the dog]

47. update bbc says HUNDREDS

of rockets fired into south korea, the us has bases there, they attacked our ally, are we justified in carpet bombing north korea??? then again china is their ally.....and china probably supplies our army with lots of shit

[Turborama]

49. Photos from Al Jazeera English & The Telegraph...

From this regularly updated article: http://english.aljazeera.net//news/asia-pacific/2010/11/2010112363934477392.html



From this Telegraph article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/southkorea/8153100/North-Korean-attack-on-Yeonpyeong-Island-is-worst-against-civilians-in-20-years.html

[Turborama]

50. Breaking on Al Jazeera English's site: Fires on SKorean island burning out of control, say witnesses

Check here for updates: http://english.aljazeera.net//news/asia-pacific/2010/11/2010112363934477392.html

[Major Hogwash]

55. This is that 3 AM phone call they were talking about during the 2008 campaign.

And I don't care what anyone says, I feel 1000 times better that Obama is the one that got that call than McCain.

He's just too unstable.
I think he should have a mental evaluation before he is sworn in next time.

[joshcryer]

59. Yes, McCain would have likely launched nuclear weapons by now.

[Turborama]

61. Do you think McCain would still be around after 2 years?

Even if he'd managed to survive the stress, I suspect he might have accidentally slipped on the Grand Staircase by now...

[Major Hogwash]

62. That's an even scarier thought.

A President Palin.

Gezzus Christ on a bike, she'd have to have them show her where Korea is on a map.
And explain to her - again - that they are separate countries.

[Frisbee]

85. Slipped? Or pushed by Palin? n/t

[Turborama]

113. "accidentally slipped" was in italics

As a kind of hint... ;-)

[Frisbee]

115. Missed that....

:toast:

[LandR]

63. right on the money

[Ghost Dog]

72. +1 000 000

But, is the President really in charge, financially and militarily?

[Ian David]

88. If McCain were President, we'd be digging out of radioactive rubble by now. n/t

[Psephos]

138. Just a thought, but it was HRC who was asking that question. n/t

[christx30]

139. Another person that is glad that McCain isn't up there?

John McCain. In my mind, he obviously threw that election. That old guy shuffle during the debates told me the whole story.

But yeah. I'm glad Obama is in there. Last thing we need is a maverick pulling out some sword and screaming.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

56. and I hear he's got pretty good SOS, too

.

[JCMach1]

57. Yikes! Will check Al Jazeera at lunch... hope I can eat

:(

[Socal31]

60. The lack of on-the-scene video and pictures is rather odd....

[Turborama]

65. Al Jazeera English have footage from across the bay. Reports of a lot of people evacuating...

...by fishing boats. They might have footage to share later.

Probably no TV crews there yet.

I posted a couple of photos here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4625809&mesg_id=4625889

[joshcryer]

66. 1.5 hours since it happened, SK locked down, we probably won't get on the ground reports...

...for another hour and a half yet.

[Turborama]

69. Nothing on Arirang's website or TV channel. Do you think the South Koreans are being informed yet?

http://www.arirang.co.kr/News/News_Index.asp

[joshcryer]

70. Yes they know, I have several friends in SK, even small children that my friend is teaching know.

He said to her "Teacher do you know we are at war?" Translating messages over intercom.

[joshcryer]

67. SK military reserves called in to put out fires:

http://www.ytn.co.kr/_ln/0103_201011231739588179

Use google translate (Chrome has it built in).

Very interesting to have the military reserves called in.

[joshcryer]

68. FYI, my "armchairing" this is SK sending a very strong message.

"We'll call in every able bodied male between 20-50 to put out these fires."

[AtheistCrusader]

129. Not so strange. Active duty are all manning their posts right now, ready to go.

Go all the way, if necessary.

[Scurrilous]

73. Live discussion (English) @ allkpop:

http://www.allkpop.com/2010/11/artillery-fire-exchanged-between-north-and-south-korea

[happi1]

74. Typical

Kim Myong-chol running his scumbag mouth as usual.

"We repeatedly warned South Korea to stop its dangerous war games. If the South continues its dangerous behaviour, Seoul will be the next target. It will be a sea of fire. Nuclear war could start at any point,"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/nov/23/north-korea-fires-south-korea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Myong-chol

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. 2nd South Korean marine dies, according to news agency

BBC updates here (times in GMT):

0932: A second South Korean marine dies after the shelling of Yeonpyeong, Yonhap news agency reports.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/9218848.stm

[dipsydoodle]

77. Running time table here on BBC which auto reloads

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/9218848.stm

Time stamp is GMT.

[Nihil]

90. Updated at 12:51 (GMT)

> 1251: The United Nations Security Council could hold an emergency meeting
> in the next day or two to discuss the attack, a French diplomatic source
> is quoted by Reuters as saying.

> 1238: ... US President Barack Obama was woken up just before 4am with the news.
> There is concern here about the situation. The Americans are pointing their finger
> firmly at North Korea. President Obama is expected to speak to South Korea's
> president shortly.

> 1201: Eyewitness Shin Sung-hee says: "The artillery didn't just hit one location
> - there were fires everywhere and it was chaotic. I tried calling my wife at home,
> but I just heard "Darling", and the phone was disconnected. After about 10 minutes,
> the announcement was made saying that it was for real and telling the residents to
> evacuate to the shelter. I took my car and went back home. When I got there, my wife
> was standing outside and the house was already destroyed."

Thanks Dipsydoodle for the link! :hi:

[proteus_lives]

79. Shit.

[Blandocyte]

84. I wonder what China, N.K.'s ally, and WalMart, China's ally

will do?

[grahamhgreen]

93. They will quickly figure out what companies will profit from this and adjust their investment

portfolios...

- who makes the NK arms? China?

- SK?

[14thColony]

106. Darn it, they make their own!

Clearly NK needs to get thoroughly globalized so as to allow maximum profit opportunities from any future misery on the peninsula...

[drm604]

86. Ohmigod,

I just woke up to this. I only learned about it through DU. CNN and MSNBC are going on about the TSA. I'm upset about that also, but how can they not be covering N. Korea shelling S. Korea?

[OnlinePoker]

91. It's on both CNN and Fox news(?) website. n/t

[era veteran]

92. Eugene Robinson talking of it on MSNBC now

[BumRushDaShow]

94. Don't worry

you will eventually never hear the end of this on every news outlet once they dust off their maps and touch screens. Happy Thanksgiving and the soon-to-come barrage of "Palin Palin Obama sucks bomb bomb TSA grope Obama sucks war war Palin North Korea Haiti cholera Obama sucks". :eyes:

[Demstud]

89. Thanks yahoo/sbc!

How is this not among my top stories when I wake up? Instead I get "wackiest dwts costumes" :puke: Not on local tv either, so if I hadn't checked this forum I'd be heading off to school blissfuly unaware.

[Frisbee]

96. I get CNN "Breaking News" emails everytime an

90 year old former Hollywood Star dies, but NOTHING on this. I guess that pretty much sums up CNN's priorities.

[rainbow4321]

127. LOL..I woke up this morning, turned on CNN

and they were anxiously awaiting the jaw bone forensics from Aruba. OK, then, I go to bed at 3 am reading on DU the Koreas are firing at each other, followed it on DU and twitter, and then wake up to this.

Needless to say, I logged onto DU to find out Korea updates!


Next up on CNN..royal wedding plans finalized!

[maryellen99]

97. my dad always told me that World War III would start in Korea

I pray that this is not the case.

[defendandprotect]

98. Amazing this took so long -- RW warmongering pays off -- !!

[ProgressiveMajority]

121. Agreed. We really provoked this with military exercises and our own bellicose rhetoric

Why is it always North Korea provoking actions? What about all the rhetoric against North Korea on our part, calling them the axis of evil, failing to uphold the Carter agreement? Maybe North Korea did have a Uranium enrichment program all along, but in 2002 we had no absolute proof of that, not honoring the agreement to provide North Korea with a light water reactor was the wrong thing to do. At least if we had done that they would be a lot more agreeable now I think.

[defendandprotect]

135. Really not familiar with the details ....

but I'm noting your comments --

however, inescapable that W and right wing were from first moments trying to tear

up anything globally that looked calm and/or like peace!!

The wink to Sharon was another -- now a 10 year war by Israel on people with no arms and

no weapons! While Israel is a nuclear nation and is supplied with weapons by US and $$

for them -- in fact, US and Israeli weapons production are so intertwined you can barely

tell the difference between them. US has even stored missiles in Israel!

And, sadly, Biden is continuing to try to push and give license to an Israeli attack on

Palestine.

[Odin2005]

99. OH SHIT!

:scared:

[BolivarianHero]

100. Thank you Kim...

You basically killed yourself, and all real leftists who've not drunk your fascist Juche koolaid are happy to see you go.

[paparush]

101. China needs to step up and yank this dog's chain, and hard.

[katty]

145. still waitin' for China to yank that chain....hurry up

[AsahinaKimi]

102. WTF

Do they want war so badly? What good does that do? shinjirarenai!

[Turbineguy]

104. There was some question as to

whether or not Grandson Kim was crazy enough to run North Korea. I guess we have our answer.

[leeroysphitz]

105. Here we go...

[zonkers]

107. Time for TEAM AMERICA.

[Harry Monroe]

110. Fuck yeah!!

[awoke_in_2003]

165. comin' around...

to save the mother fucking day, yeah :)

[Lars77]

109. I guess the heir has been reading The Onion..

http://www.theonion.com/articles/kim-jongun-privately-doubting-hes-crazy-enough-to,18374/

[derby378]

111. Oh, here we go...

Li'l Kim wants to leave his mark on North Korean history before he retires as Grand High Poobah. I just wonder how far he wants to take this game.

[sarcasmo]

112. Another war for the World Police. How long before President Obama sends in the troops?

[Imajika]

114. Obama won't do anything...

And neither will South Korea.

This is just the North acting out. North Korea probably wants more food aid or are sending a warning that the world better not punish them for their new uranium enrichment plant.

It is the price of living on the Korean peninsula.

North Korea is a communist basketcase and, for the most part, everyone just puts up with their crap knowing the country will eventually just collapse under the weight of its horrible command and control economic system.

[RZM]

122. Agreed

This is a cry for attention, same as the sinking of the S. Korean warship earlier in the year. N. Korea wants a security guarantee but nobody's interested in giving them one -- so they are trying to force us to come to them and this is the only way they can do it -- be such a nuisance that a deal gets cut just to shut them up.

[jeff47]

117. The troops are already there. They never left after the Korean war. (nt)

[sarcasmo]

119. They are not in North Korea, they are in the DMZ.

[alcibiades_mystery]

123. 30,000 US troops would be annihilated if they tried to enter N Korea

They have a million man standing army armed to the fucking teeth and building defenses for 50 years. We don't have enough ordinance to clear even a quarter mile of that kind of land.

[sarcasmo]

124. I agree it would be ugly and China needs to handle N. Korea we don't have the man power.

[Xithras]

125. I believe the U.S. military historically assumed that any resumption of that war would go nuclear.

Concrete lined trenches and tank traps don't mean much when you have H-bombs airbursting overhead.

I'd be curious to see how the military has updated its North Korean battle plans now that the USSR is gone and China is an economic ally of sorts. If it's updated them at all.

[james0tucson]

126. China an ally?

If China were an ally they would be invading North Korea today.

[tuckessee]

130. There are differences between "allies" and "lackeys".

Something Americans obviously don't understand.

[Xithras]

133. I said "economic" ally.

They're certainly not a military ally, and they have their own political interests. Economically, however, we're tied at the hip...so it's a safe bet that they won't be lobbing any nukes at us anytime soon.

My point was that, historically, the U.S. generally assumed that any resumption of the Korean War would probably spark a nuclear exchange with China and/or the USSR. There were few serious plans for a ground war, because that assumption would have precluded the need to invade...North Korea would have been reduced to a radioactive wasteland.

Given the modern political climate, a conventional ground war (aided by conventionally tipped missiles) is the more likely scenario today. A nuclear exchange is unlikely, and even if it occurred, would only involve limited targets and threats.

The problem is that North Korea is prepared for that kind of war. We aren't.

[Name removed]

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[DFab420]

141. Umm actually that's wrong on a few counts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-China_Strategic_and_Economic_Dialogue

You should try reading up on the newest Sino-American policy and relations.

The Obama administration has given the Chinese more then enough reasons to help keep North Korea quiet. While yes China may have a hold over us by buying up our debt, without the consumption of the West, their entire manufacturing market would fall apart. They aren't going to allow North Korea to start a war when the Chinese themselves are trying to quell poverty riots in their own country.

[Name removed]

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[DFab420]

146. Something tells me China will do plenty..

Chinese analysts said Tuesday’s attack primarily reflected internal North Korean politics – but represented a challenge for Beijing all the same.

“This poses a tricky question for Chinese diplomacy – China is seen as having the most influence over North Korea so if it cannot restore calm in the wake of this incident it will be a major setback ,” said Wang Junsheng, a researcher at one of China’s government think-tanks.

Analysts say the prospect of North Korea collapsing has forced China to maintain its support for Kim Jong-il, despite growing differences between the sides.


You can find the rest here @ http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2f4c977e-f6f0-11df-8feb-00144feab49a.html#axzz1690Xgxrl

[Pavulon]

154. China has an interest in not being covered in cesium

if their dog does something stupid and trips a nuclear war. any attack by the north on south korea or japan with nuclear weapons would earn a response by the us.

China owns debt, debt can be defaulted on, or their pegged currency can become so volatile that their position can become less valuable. Japan and Europe also own lots of debt.

China will be lucky not to implode from cultural issues in the next 10 years. old hundred names got left out of the big boom.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

162. "china road" rob gifford. start there

NPR right wing nutcase, umm sane book on china's complex cultures written for people who dont like heavy reading. "hermit kingdom" hit that next, lots of info on the north.

Why kidnap and rape Japanese citizens, are you arguing N korea is a sane actor? N korea is a strange and bizzaro place.

China controls n koreas access to the outside world and could cut it off at any time. Fuel, food, etc. They kinda like the buffer from the US but probably dont want a nuclear war on their back door.

Your lack of basic knowledge of economic and social structures is making this more difficult.


The us killed 1 million Chinese last time this war was hot. Technology has evolved in the conventional war space. Barring nukes, it would be a poor call for any nation to enter an open conflict with the us. no schools to paint, no hearts and minds, just map sectors and making the rocks bounce. we do a really good job of that.

No one is suggesting that is a course of action but the facts remain.

I know a man who watched 15,000 iraqi's become 125 walking wounded in 45 minutes in the first gulf war. mlrs, 155, and combined air are bad things.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

149. The day china launches nukes at the us will mark the death of billions of people

now, next week or next century. It is not an option and should not really be part of the equation for either side.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

155. They want their money back. They are quite fucked if we dont pay them

which we could do. They have far more to loose. been there, seen it.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

159. So japan and europe dont buy debt? While I appreciate you economic perspective

i disagree. They are playing currency game and funneling cash they make based on slave labor prices and no environmental controls into something with returns. China exports plastic dog shit, they are not exporting anything other than walmart trash.

The American economy is far larger than china's almost 2x, but you already knew that right?

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

163. China is a seller state, we are a consumer state.

china buys debt because it has to do something with the cash it makes from selling us shit. We do not need china to sell us shit, vietnam, cambodia, or any other 3rd world nation can stock the shelves in a walmart.

China will not attack the north, they will either cut them off or double down and back them up.

That will be very important for china.

[Name removed]

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[14thColony]

147. True that the NK army would ultimately fail

But given that somewhere in excess of one-third of the South's population lives within artillery range of the DMZ, not to mention all of Seoul lying in that zone, one of the most populous cities in the world, even if ultimately defeated the NK army could inflict an unimaginable human toll.

Edit for brain fart - inverted a figure.

[Dash87]

152. Their "million man army" sucks to high heaven.

Most of their tanks and stuff are rusted over, and could easily be destroyed by modern technology. Modern weapons would completely annihilate them.

[Pavulon]

158. Would end like the highway of death. People would feel bad for the 20,000

man globs that would get clipped by air power. They are hollow and weak, that is why they are playing these games. The hermit kingdom is falling apart.

[James48]

170. ?

Our "modern weapons" are all pretty much used up, or elsewhere at the moment.

A million bad guys pouring over the border is NOT a pleasant sight in ANY circumstance.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, thank you.

North Korea's armed forces are nothing to joke about.

[FromNY]

168. Not in the DMZ - that's why it's called the DE-militarized zone

They're mostly just south of it...though they do pull duty in the DMZ.

[14thColony]

144. Not so many anymore though

2nd Infantry Division only keeps one heavy brigade on the peninsula since the others were pulled out for Iraq and never came back.

[quakerboy]

118. it dosnt seem this is the final provocation

and if we do hit that point, this is china's rabid dog and they need to deal with it.

[Ter]

142. If they go to war, Obama has no choice but to send them fighting

We technically are still at war with the North (officially called a "Cease Fire"). Doesn't matter if the President is Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul, by law we have to go help.

[James48]

169. Send WHO???

Our forces- the Army, the Navy, the Marines, and the Air Force, are all kind of tied up at the moment, you know.

[Mhak]

171. Not really.

Iraq is almost a done deal and Afghanistan is way less intense now than it was from 2001-2007. We could stir up hundreds of thousands of troops to send to Korea pretty quickly if need be. We also have the 8th Infantry Division based in South Korea, they toe the DMZ whenever North Korea does something stupid. They are incredibly highly trained and ready to rock some socks 24/7. We also have air power from Okinawa ready with general air superiority and tactical nukes, if it comes to that.

Do not let the troubles the U.S. military has in dealing with an insurgency-situation (which we've been slowly getting better at, lessons learned from Vietnam and the Philippines) lead you to believe we've lost our touch at conventional war. If you give America a big fat target and say "HERE THEY ARE!", such as would be the case with North Korea...believe me, it would not be a pretty picture for North Korea.

[James48]

174. Um- no.

We still have over 50,000 troops tied up in Iraq, and they will be for some time to come. We have almost all the rest of our combat forces now in Afghanistan, or preparing to go to Afghanistan, or recovering having just returned from Afghnistan or Iraq.

Our conventional forces don't know how to do a combined arms attack anymore. Our field artillery is no longer viable as a fighting force. We don't have heavy divisions and Corps forces anymore,- they've all been broken up into "combat brigades" for use in Iraq and Afghanistan. You mention the 8th ID in Korea. Well, actually the 8th Infantry Division no longer exists. It USED to be "Pathfinders" in Germany. It was deactivated in 1994.

Currently the 2nd Infantry Division is the only Division unit in Korea. The 2nd Infantry Division's 4th Brigade Combat Team was deployed to Iraq in the fall of 2009. 3rd Brigade deployed to Iraq 4 August 2009 for the brigade's third deployment to Iraq, the most of any Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT). In July 2010, the 5th Brigade (Stryker) returned to Joint Base Lewis-McChord from deployment to Afghanistan. That leaves roughly one full heavy brigade out of FIVE ready to fight, on the ground in Korea. That's roughly 4,500 Tank and Infantry soldiers- up against almost 2 MILLION North Korean armed forces.

Sorry- but no- any forces we have there are nothing more now than speed bumps to justify sending in more later- but we really don't have a well trained conventional heavy force any more.

[Nihil]

173. Wouldn't that be ironic though?

After all of the shit in recent decades because of the number of
illegal wars that the US has started (or joined in with), this
might actually be the first one where the combat is legal!

:crazy:

[Dash87]

128. I hope those North Koreans got blown to bits.

This is why we shouldn't have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are still real threats in the world.

[tuckessee]

131. You still wouldn't have enough cannon fodder to play out your war fantasies. n/t

[jimlup]

137. Oh Shit!

This is not good news at all. What the hell is the North thinking? Do they think they can back up this shit with Nuclear weapons. If they do - they are big big fools indeed.

[Grinchie]

140. S.Korea Desperate to create a diversion.

S. Korea is about to collapse in the Global Ponzi scheme. It's export economy is crashing and burning in the global recession, and the new "Conservative" leaders would like nothing more than to distract an ever growing number of unhappy citizens by proviking a little war. After all, the cost of maintaining aging military equipment is quite expensive you know.

http://www.brahmand.com/news/S-Korea-to-hold-large-scale-military-drill-next-week/5499/3/13.html
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20101123001048

Don't be fooled by the propaganda from the War Hawks present in either Party here in the US. (R) or (D), they still see money in wartime, but we all will pay for it.

[d_r]

148. Must be time N.Korea is wanting a pay out

They rattle their sabers until some financial aid is extorted.

[Pavulon]

150. Nail hit on the head. that is the hermit cycle

they fuckup and put a handout.

[underpants]

153. It could be a rogue Colonel in charge of an artillery brigade

just a guess

[Taverner]

156. Aw fuck

Not good, but am I bad if I hope the South wins? You see, I'm an Atheist...

[Mhak]

166. I see a lot of people getting worked up here...

Take it from someone who was stationed there for a year - Relax. This is North Korea's MO. SK informed NK they were going to be conducting operations on that island, and that they weren't going to be firing in NK's direction. NK, being the scared little dicks they are, went ahead and "thought" SK was firing in their direction, so they retaliated "defensively." Everybody on both sides of the 38th knows that NK is just being the impudent jerks they normally are. They do it all the time, nothing is going to come out of it. I can't tell you how many times NK does stuff like this. Nothing ever happens. Maybe one day it will, but not today and likely not the near future.

The U.S. has too many troops right there for NK to do anything too stupid. You'll notice that every time they do something like this, they make *damn certain* that no U.S. troops are killed. They know that if that happens, all bets are off, and they're crispy critters. This is only North Korea pushing some buttons. Again, they do it all the time. Relax.

[kiranon]

167. Time for N. Korea to accidentally send a missile toward China. Oops.

That ought to end this latest episode of N. Korean madness.

[neverforget]

172. One of these days, South Korea is going to stop taking this shit and shoot back

hurt North Korea.