EXCLUSIVE: CITY OF BROOKFIELD BALLOT BAGS FOUND 'WIDE OPEN' IN WAUKESHA COUNTY, WI

[BradBlog]

Source: BRAD BLOG



EXCLUSIVE: CITY OF BROOKFIELD BALLOT BAGS FOUND 'WIDE OPEN' IN WAUKESHA COUNTY, WI
Chain of custody violations continue to emerge, particularly in Waukesha, during state Supreme Court election 'recount'
ALSO: $25,000 reward offered for evidence of WI election tampering...

Five out of six bags of ballots from first batch to be counted out of the City of Brookfield in Waukesha County, WI today, were discovered "almost wide open" during Day 8 of the statewide Supreme Court election "recount". The bags were open and unsealed, according to both photographic evidence and an eye-witnesses account from the counting room. (Many more exclusive photos posted below.)

"When the ballot bags were taken out and placed upon the counting table, we were literally stunned," one of the citizen observers, Mary Magnuson, a Kloppenburg volunteer, told The BRAD BLOG this morning. "5 out of the 6 ballot bags were almost literally wide open, and ballots could be clearly seen."

The ballots in those bags were among the 14,000 said to have been cast in the April 5th election, but left off of Waukesha County's tally as reported to the media on Election Night...

FULL STORY: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8511




Read more: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8511

[midnight]

1. O please make this nightmare make sense...

[HowHasItComeToThis]

30. THE REPUBLICANS ARE DESTROYING OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

AND HAVE HAD YEARS TO COMPROMISE OUR ELECTIONS.


COUNT ON IT

[Kablooie]

35. Not surprising. That's been their stated goal for years, to eliminate the government.

[Enthusiast]

39. The corporations can govern just fine.

Apparently. Democracy be damned.

[Avant Guardian]

111. Yes, we the people should not be allowed to govern outselves

Because the corporations have our best interests at heart.

[valerief]

143. After all, they only want to see us go to heaven.

:sarcasm:

[Ken Burch]

168. It's neo-feudalism, really.

The CEO is the new liege lord.

[nonperson]

138. Along with their other publicly stated goal

Of ensuring the failure of the President of the United States.

They're no different than the Confederate traitors they derive from. Traitors all. When will they face justice for their treason?

[Left coast liberal]

167. Yes, this was fishy from the start! Keep up the great work, BRAD! nt

[geckosfeet]

47. Simple. Some had to add the 7000 or so votes that they 'forgot; to count.

The paper ballot count needs to match up (at least approximately) with the original computer totals they claimed.

This is starting to stink even worse than it already did.

[mlevans]

151. It makes perfect sense.

GOP operatives fucked around with the ballots. Not exactly a new story. What doesn't make sense?

[Bozita]

2. I'm off to find a bottle of champagne in the frig.

I know there's none there.

But I do know there's a can of beer in there.

:toast:

[jillan]

3. It's beginning to sound like it's time for a re-vote.

[robinlynne]

4. Hell yes.

[Horse with no Name]

5. With poll watchers from the UN

Since the republicans insist on behaving like a banana republic.

[tnlefty]

10. Could we have that in every state in the US?

Just asking.

[TxVietVet]

52. I'd say that it is probably true.

The conservanazis want to rule this country so bad, they will do anything to get that power. So, it's probably true they have seriously violated election laws in just about every state. Democracy be damned with these traitors.

[Beartracks]

193. True: They want to rule, not to govern. EOM n/t

[defendandprotect]

12. Here's what former Pres. Jimmy Carter says about why our elections can't be "observed" ...!!

JIMMY CARTER re our Elections –

President Jimmy Carter –

Carter Center, Alabama, saying they could not serve as observers in US elections because we

lack the three necessary criteria --


1 - Voters must be able to understand the ballot procedures and the ballots themselves

2 - Voters must have equal rights to have their votes counted

3 - There must be a central commission in the country to resolve election disputes


Carter says that none of these conditions prevail throughout the US – and that Florida violated

all three – !!



Universal & Equal Suffrage -

“The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government –

This will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by

universal and equal suffrage --

United Nations 1948 – Universal Declaration of Human Rights –



“The most important control system the power brokers have established

in this country is that we the people will settle for less, that we will settle for

the least worst” –




Election Fraud and suggestions to correct it --

1. Repeal the Help America Vote Act (HAVA).
2. Replace all electronic voting with hand-counted paper ballots (HCPB).
3. Get rid of computerized voter rolls.
4. Keep all private vendors out of the election process.
5. Make it illegal for the TV networks to declare who won before the vote-count is complete.
6. Set up an exit polling system, publicly supported, to keep the vote-counts honest.
7. Get rid of voter registration rules, by having every citizen be duly registered on his/her 18th birthday.
8. Ban all state requirements for state-issued ID's at the polls.
9. Put all polling places under video surveillance, to spot voter fraud, monitor election personnel, and track the turnout.
10. Have Election Day declared a federal holiday, requiring all employers to allow their workers time to vote.
11. Make it illegal for Secretaries of State to co-chair political campaigns (or otherwise assist or favor them).
12. Make election fraud a major felony, with life imprisonment--and disenfranchisement--for all repeat offenders.

[cstanleytech]

16. The other option to federal holiday to let people have enough time to vote is

to extend the time for how long the voting period is so instead of 1 day you have say 3 days as well as having the places for voting stay open from 6 am until 10 pm.
\
Edit: forgot to add, the whole banning news agencies from reporting who "won" or who they think won wont probably fly because of that whole freedom of the press thing not to mention that other thing called freedom of speech.

[defendandprotect]

21. Well, corporations have destroyed the notion of Election Day as a holiday ---

guess it never was "Federal" -- would have to check --

but certainly most people had Election Day off at one point in our history.

Voting on a Tuesday also seems idiotic -- and agree the voting period should be extended --

and a two weeks period before the election, perhaps -- early voting -- write in's.

Re holding off from announcing winners -- don't think any European nations do what we do --

i.e., expect a winner by 12 pm at night on Election Day!

Don't think it's a matter of free speech -- they aren't permitted to announce anything before

the polls close anyway. But, they shouldn't be permitted to use computers to predict and

call elections -- we should return to ONLY reporting tallied votes.

We also need IRV voting which other countries use and an end to the two-party tango!!

[alp227]

26. a great idea: Friday-Sunday voting periods!

the Tuesday voting day is an obsolete agricultural-era tradition. And that three day voting period will allay any concerns re holy days (Friday for Muslims, Saturday for Jews, Sunday for Christians).

[micraphone]

34. In New Zealand

where I am, voting is always on a Saturday. Works fine and no allowances for ethnic or religious groups. Just that most people are not working - and those that are can get to a booth before or after work.

AND we get results from local booth (hand counting paper ballots) on TV usually by around 11pm.

What's so hard?

(OK the Kochs would NEVER be allowed to pour money into the game here - by law!)

[Enthusiast]

40. American workers no longer have

a five day work week. Saturday and Sunday are now just another work day to many American workers.

[dotymed]

41. Until the G,W. "election", the exit polls conducted by

the MSM (honestly, it may be different now), were extremely accurate. During that "election" the numbers were so far off that it could not be explained mathematically. The odds were waay against the spread that we ended up with,

I remember watching the Bush family on tee vee, at a restaurant.

When Florida was "called" for Kerry, W. said that he was going to call Jeb in Florida. "Those votes were promised to me by Jeb." The family left and went to their compound, where W. made some calls. It was televised.

Soon thereafter, Florida was taken out of the Kerry wins and other states as well. The tee vee said they were now "too close to call."

Fast forward the next few days....the "Brooks Brothers (their fancy suits) Rebellion." Constant intimidation of the re-count (which was stopped by neo-con SCOTUS), violence against poll workers, etc...

Viola, the majority biased, SCOTUS courtesy of Bush I) actually appointed W. as president instead of finishing recounts and following the will of the electorate (people).

Our "election system" has yet to be overhauled", except for the addition of millions of computer voting machines purchased from the head of the rethuglican committee in Ohio (who had promised to deliver the majority of Ohio's votes to W.). The machines were proven repeatedly, to be easily manipulated but the SCOTUS ruled that the software for these machines was "proprietary property" and could not be examined.
Anyone who thinks that is not proof of a fix (election fraud) is clearly not conscious.

There are many ways to fix the fraudulent system and most of them have been suggested. It seems that (especially the rethug politicians) are happy with the current system. Of course they are.

America has been the victim of a bloodless coup.

[GoCubsGo]

53. They were accurate in 2000, as well.

Exit polls had been conducted by the Voter News Service, which up until 2000, was had very accurate polling. It was the GOP's meme that they were inaccurate that cause their elimination, thanks to the BS in Florida, and Fox Noise's "calling" of the election. It's a typical BOP tactic to bad-mouth something that works so much that people come to believe it doesn't work. In the case of the 2000 elections, they used the lies of inaccuracy to cover up the fraud. They also now had the help of their buddy Rupert Murdoch and his propaganda network to muddle things up. This was the first Presidential election where they were part of the VNS. Go figure. VNS was scapegoated for the 2000 fiasco, which is why they were disbanded in 2002.

BTW, you are confusing the 2000 and 2004 elections. The Florida/Jeb fiasco, and it's "Brooks Brothers Riot"/recount was the 2000/Al Gore election, not the 2004 John Kerry election. The Ohio mess was in 2004.

[dotymed]

166. Thank You.

You are absolutely correct. I guess that 8 year long nightmare got all muddled in my mind. Thanks Again.

[russspeakeasy]

105. Defendandprotect...Thank you for this fine post.

[Beartracks]

194. Great list of fraud remedies.

The basis of Democracy is the vote. It should be protected at all costs. If wars can be fought to protect the country with no regard to cost, then voting should be defended with similar enthusiasm.

---------------------

[Webster Green]

8. With UN observers.

And paper ballots and number 2 pencils for everyone.

Lots of exit polling too.

[defendandprotect]

11. ... and how would you prevent them from doing the same thing again?

[Webster Green]

15. Seal Team 6?

NATO troops.

[Avant Guardian]

115. Change the federal laws

Cheat in a federal election? 20 years mandatory prison sentence.

[LiberalFighter]

13. I don't ever recall there being a revote.

Best I see done is with recounts.

[freshwest]

31. That's what I've always said... Can it be done under WI law? I was surprised at their recall process

Letting Walker stay a year in office before a recall.

The damage he can do in that time may never be undone.

[Jackpine Radical]

103. Remember that impeachment is a separate process from recall.

Recall only takes a lot of unhappy voters with buyers' remorse.

Impeachment is the remedy for criminal conduct in office, and doesn't require the year. Unfortunately, it DOES require an honest legislature.

[midnight]

171. What if the folks that are running against the Republicans via re-call get into office and

swing the legislature back into the hands of the Dems.?

[Jackpine Radical]

207. That would give us the Senate, but not the Assembly.

Impeachment requires a vote by the Assembly.

[Kablooie]

36. T

Cheating is perfectly acceptable as long as it helps Republicans to win, so get over it.






:sarcasm:

[Enthusiast]

132. Democrats are just sore losers.

But you knew that.

[elocs]

If you're going to wish for something that will never happen, wish for world peace

because with the Republicans controlling everything here in Wisconsin (the house, the senate, the governorship, the supreme court) a revote will never happen here.

[midnight]

170. A re-vote sounds more sensible than having to make sense of this mess....

[Cal33]

208. Yes, a revote does make sense, but a new law has to be enacted first. n/t

[live love laugh]

6. The "votes" in every questionable bag ought to be quarantined. I hope somebody's differrentiating

the sealed vote counts from the rest.

[sybylla]

43. PeaceNikki, who's been observing there has said they were segregating them

This isn't the first time in the recount they have found questionable bags of ballots. They apparently have been counted and the votes tabulated separately all along. That way, when Kloppenburg takes all the evidence to court, she knows exactly how many votes to ask to be thrown out.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

58. Hi Syb - Did you find any in Marathon? -nt

[sybylla]

76. There were a couple of wards out of 149

The county clerk noted it when the ballot bags were delivered and taped them shut with packaging tape. It was all recorded in the minutes. These were small municipalities so the whole ward constituted one bag. The Kloppenburg Campaign will have to decide if there is enough grounds to challenge them.

[PeaceNikki]

60. I cannot confirm or deny that was done with the Brookfield bags.

It's been done with all bags challenged in my presence.

[marions ghost]

88. good

:thumbsup:

[patrice]

7. Does this explain the delay in compiling the totals?

[northoftheborder]

9. That whole election should be declared invalid and REDONE.

This gets worse every day. The whole state should be hand counted and compared to the sign in's, no matter how long it takes. This is a democracy??????? Jimmy Carter needs to weigh in. He has already despaired over our whole country's election system. We are NOT an example of how it should be done.

[defendandprotect]

14. And what do we conclude now? GOP has only stolen this one election?

GOP has only been stealing elections since 2000?

Thanks for all the info -- I looked at the pics and some of the comments!!

:)

In fact, the computers began coming in during the late 1960's --

and the LARGE computers used by corporate-press began coming in during mid-1960's --

They are also important because they gave MSM new powers to PREDICT and CALL elections --

PREDICT and CALL winners and losers -- PREDICT and CALL Electoral College Votes by State --

and PREDICT and CALL an election for a presidential winner!! What we saw in 2000 was

simply a REVERSAL of those new powers.


I'm finding it ironic that so many here rightly distrust corporate-press -- but evidently

also believes there is some limit to their lies -- as in ....

they wouldn't lie about anything as big as a presidential election -- or 9/11!!



Here's an interesting website ---

Votescam -- The Stealing of America --

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

Two journalists in Florida in the late 1960's began investigating the very odd election

results being reported and began to look into computer voting and the unverifiable results.

They also reported their findings to Larry O'Brien head of the Dem National Committee at

the Watergate.

They contracted for a book which was removed from the shelves very quickly after arrival.

The book is available here and there in paperback for about $3 -- but can be read at this

family website ---

[L. Coyote]

101. Election stealing has been going on as long as elections have been going on, however

it seems to have fallen into greater favor than assassinations since 1968.

:NO SARCASM:

[Enthusiast]

133. Assassinations could be followed by

messy investigations.

[defendandprotect]

142. ... and long term cover ups -- !!

Great point -- !!!

:)

[defendandprotect]

140. Agree ---

and can only hope most DU'ers don't think it all began in 2000!!!

:)

[jwirr]

17. This is getting ridiculous.

[pacalo]

18. The pictures speak volumes. Thank you, Brad.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gauguin57]

20. Crazy! When I've worked at the polls, breaking ballot seals requires witness, signature ...

... there are all sorts of rules that make the procedure take a lot of time ... but you HAVE to go through every little step to make sure everything's done on the up and up.

The folks at these polling places are either 1) incompetent 2) not paying attention 3) corrupt.

[keroro gunsou]

22. you forgot

#4 - stupid.

[sybylla]

80. In this case the seals weren't broken

They just weren't put on properly in the first place. There were a couple of small municipalities in county I observed who didn't seal their bags properly either. Depending on the circumstances, I think that gives the Kloppenburg Campaign grounds to challenge those ballots as legitimate.

The reason this is a bigger problem in Waukesha is that we already have suspicious activity. Poorly sealed bags provide even more opportunity for screwing with the vote.

[PeaceNikki]

84. This ^

It's also notable that those bags SUCK and should be replaced with a much better solution. It's difficult to seal them properly, ESPECIALLY for older poll workers with arthritis and such. We need better bags that are easier to seal and more tamper-evident. Those things suck ass.

[sybylla]

86. Right on!

Of the recount workers (clerks and poll workers) and Board of Canvass members in the room in Marathon, only 3 could do it right the first time. Others were practicing when it came time to reseal the bags.

Definitely need a new way to protect the ballots. It seems to me where the problems are cropping up is where they are trying to save money. Plastic bags are cheap and so are the seals. Some kind of locking case might be better. Expensive, but better.

As someone who used to work in the banking industry, I'm used to seeing no expense spared to protect sensitive materials (and money).

In my view, our democracy is as important as money and it's about time we start treating it that way.

[PeaceNikki]

87. We have two board members who re-seal ballots after count and one of them REALLY has a hard time.

Ramona, the Democrat, is VERY careful, VERY precise and always gets it right. The other lady's have had to be redone because she makes the same mistake that results in "seals" like we see in the Brookfield (and several other) bags.

I *wish* there was clear evidence of fraud. As of now, there's clear evidence of slop that there COULD have allowed for fraud, which is different. We're only about 20% done so it could shake out differently in the end. We'll keep watching and keep objecting and keep entering into evidence.

The Board will ALWAYS rule to count the ballots unless it's VERY clear (which it's not) or the numbers don't reconcile to tapes (and they've been).

[sybylla]

91. Understandable.

Both on the bag sealing and the objecting.

All we can do is get it in the record and hope the Kloppenburg campaign can do something with it in front of a judge.

Stay Strong, PeaceNikki. It's hard and frustrating work to stand there and watch day after day, but we're counting on you.

[sulphurdunn]

169. Great idea, but what's the point?

The bags being used are the official ones. Some of them have obviously been tampered with. The old poll workers with arthritis gambit is ridiculous because if they had the dexterity to change the serial numbers on the bags they also had the ability to seal them properly.

[bhikkhu]

23. That really looks like bags stretched open to pull out the contents

I wonder how detailed they can be in telling whether there has been tampering, but in any case the people responsible should be fired. What kind of a democracy can't run a simple election?

[alp227]

27. I was thinking stretched tea bags

seriously, this story could only happen in somewhere say Iraq, Ivory Coast, Nigeria?

[Blacksheep214]

24. Our elections are based on trust

That is now gone. Without trust the system is compromised and we are no better than a banana republic.

This is beyond a recount. File criminal charges and hold a new election.

Only then can there be no conspiracy. (Yeah right!)

[BradBlog]

209. No, they're not. Quite the opposite in fact. They are based on OVERSIGHT

Trust has NOTHING to do with elections. Our system is not built on trust, it's built on checks and balances. That is something the greatest election officials in the world will tell you.

As Leon County, FL's legendary Supervisor of Elections Ion Sancho said in 2006 (and many times since): "Trust no one. If it can't be verified, it can't be used." (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=2859)

That's why transparency and citizen oversight are crucial for a successful democracy and a successful election. When votes are counted in secret (as they are in Wisconsin, on their optical scan systems with nobody checking even 1 ballot for accuracy afterwords), we end up with the mess have on our hands now up there.

Check out the story of Monterey County's 13-year election official Tony Anchundo, who once told me on air that people have to have "faith and trust in their elections officials, in this case, that would be me". See what happened to Tony Anchundo just months after he said that to me in, in this video I posted a few weeks back, about "trust" and "Democracy's Gold Standard" in elections, in response to the debacle that had just emerged in Waukesha County, WI at the time: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8463

And then, if you think "our elections are based on trust", as you suggested, get back to me and let me know why! :-)

[mvd]

25. K&R

Thanks for the updates! :kick:

[Zorra]

28. " He said the ballot bags will not be opened unless a recount is requested

by one of the campaigns. right."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=867315&mesg_id=868546

Interesting.

[Zorra]

29. Here's a bunch of past threads about Waukesha.

For research if needed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=966527&mesg_id=966538

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=852465&mesg_id=860841

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=847711&mesg_id=848407

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=852465&mesg_id=860841

http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=840740&mesg_id=840844

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=850214&mesg_id=859972

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=838721&mesg_id=839463

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=842014&mesg_id=847205

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4814826&mesg_id=4814936

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=867315&mesg_id=868546

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=867315&mesg_id=868546

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x847711

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x872728

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x891820

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x841430

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4805394

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x840740

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www/photobucket.com/albums/v611/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x849111

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x837740

http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=838721&mesg_id=838844

[Firebrand Gary]

32. Oh, How deep does this rabbit hole go?

Bet its deep.

[FLAprogressive]

33. Wow, nothing from the Prosser apologists yet.....

[aquart]

37. What is the Wisconsin law about open bags of supposedly sealed votes?

Valid or not valid?

[Warren DeMontague]

38. So here are the $14,000.00 questions, as it were, Brad---

1) Can anybody do anything about this?

2) Will they?

[BradBlog]

200. ...And my .02 cent answers for ya...

"1) Can anybody do anything about this?"

Of course. Ask yourself this: What would the Republicans do if the situation were reversed, Prosser had been up on election night by 204, down two days later after an unabashed Democratic activist County Clerk "discovered" 14,000 votes to give Klopp a 7,316 lead, and then bag after bag of ballots in the Democratic activist's county were found opened during the recount. What do you think THEY would do in that situation?

"2) Will they?"

Jury still out.

[Warren DeMontague]

206. Thanks, Brad.

And thanks for being on top of this.

I had specific questions about the legal issues involved, but I think they're addressed elsewhere in the thread. :hi:

[spicegal]

42. And you wonder why I've lost so much faith in our democracy.

I'm convinced "tampering" went on in 2000, which gave us Bush. As we speak, the GOP is doing everything in their power to suppress votes among likely democratic voters by passing legislation that will make it more difficult to vote for the young, elderly, poor, disabled, etc. Add to that the secret money that will be funneled into Republican campaigns, thanks to the Citizens United decision. "We the People" are pretty well screwed. Democracy seems nearly dead in this country.

[Enthusiast]

134. And just evaluate this nation since

the stolen 2000 election. I believe we have taken a decidedly wrong tack.

[Auntie Bush]

160. You can say that again!

Nothing could be more true. There is noway Bush won Ohio or Florida.
The man is a total fraud. I fear for 2012...they'll find a way to do it again.

[No Elephants]

44. Thanks for this info Bradblog. So sad and maddening, though.

When will D.C. address election fraud comprehensively? I realize this was a state election. However, if elections are corrupt, disaster follows.

[BradBlog]

202. Yup, and...

"When will D.C. address election fraud comprehensively?"

Or at all?!

But, I digress, the answer to your question is: When you make them. Or when a Republican loses a really really big election because it appears that they were screwed by the voting machines. Whichever comes first.

[NuttyFluffers]

45. whoa. my exp from working polls, this is like one of the worst things to occur.

we're trained to make sure as pollsters we do not invalidate people's ballots. in this case it, either the people were so grossly incompetent that they voided whole ballot bags (as in, inexcusable), or there was tampering (as in, criminal).

that's shady as all get out.

[drm604]

46. So what happens now?

Is Kloppenburg going to challenge this and the other instances? What happens to the rights of those voters?

[Ed Suspicious]

48. I don't know what happens exactly,

but peacenikki makes it sound like court challenges will be made after the recount is complete. This idea is a little scary to me. I think much hell should be raised right now. What really is freaky is that doing a google news search of "waukesha recount news" turns up next to nothing on the chain of custody anomalies. It's like it's not even happening as far as the MSM is concerned.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

64. Scary to me, too

Rumors that the "courts" - the GAB - will not accept a challenge unless the recount totals reveal a much closer margin between candidates :eyes:

[Roland99]

49. I'd like to know, too

[PeaceNikki]

54. We've challenged, the Board rules and it's all entered into evidence.

This is the recount, not a fraud investigation. Further action occurs in court after recount is complete.

[drm604]

114. I've heard that the ballots from the suspect bags are being mixed with the others.

Is that correct? Doesn't that destroy or at least degrade the evidence?

[PeaceNikki]

116. In the cases I have seen, they are counted separately.

I cannot speak for every bag that has been objected to, but I can speak for the ones I have witnessed.

[SpiralHawk]

50. Vast is the STINK of Republicon corruption

Ptoooey on Republicon Family Cesspool Election Values.

[Enthusiast]

136. I couldn't have said it better. nt

[Hubert Flottz]

51. K&R

As long as the people who do this kind of shit get away with just a scolding, if that, the will of the people means nada.

[catgirl]

55. these ballots need to be carefully inspected

Each one needs to be confirmed by contacting the voter. I'll bet some of
them were deceased on election day.

[PeaceNikki]

57. lol, thankfully we don't have identifying info on our ballots. That'd be insane.

[think]

62. I would love numbered ballots with a matching numerical receipt

No personal identification on the ballot just a correlating numeric reference to make sure my vote was counted and counted accurately....

[PeaceNikki]

63. That would be terrible. The voters are numbered here to track total ballots to voters,

but putting your voter # on the ballot would EASILY allow people to tie your vote back to you. BAD BAD BAD idea.

[think]

65. Was thinking random receipt numbers not a voter number

Not sure how a random number for a ballot and receipt could be tied back to anyone person but I'm no expert....

Scenario: City of sanity has 7500 registered voters. City prints 8,000 ballots each with an identification number on it. The number sequence could start at 1000 and go through 9000. The ballots are then shuffled like cards so the numbers are no longer in numeric order. Each voter also gets a carbon copy receipt with the same number on it.

After the election voters can request their ballot information anonymously based on their receipt to make sure the results are the same as their votes.

It's probably too cost prohibitive or as you mention some other privacy concerns would render this scenario impossible but it sure would add a great deal of legitimacy to the vote counting process...

[PeaceNikki]

70. Do you want this receipt to show how you voted?

[think]

72. for me yes. I want to be able to confirm my vote

I should not be required to show my receipt. They must give me the results of the ballot via computer or phone. If the results don't match I can then give my receipt to an independent party acting on my behalf or on my own accord to show that the recorded vote for my receipt number does not match my receipt.

As I say I have no knowledge in this area. All I know is I'd be pissed if my ATM didn't give me a receipt and I expect the same integrity for my vote if possible.

[PeaceNikki]

73. OK, gives you a warm and fuzzy but picture this...

Groups with deep pockets or employers or anyone could offer to pay you for your vote.... $50 for proof you voted for Prosser.

Can o worms.

[think]

79. When they steal this election based on a lack of evidence get back to me on this. NT

[PeaceNikki]

83. *whoooooosh*

[think]

90. Sorry my response was uncalled for

Wishing you well in WI. I'm very frustrated and skeptical. May you remain optimistic and engaged. Again my sincere apologies.

[PeaceNikki]

93. That was kind - accepted and appreciated.

We're all passionate about this.

[think]

96. I do feel very bad.

I forgot you are there dealing with it first hand so I do feel doubly bad for my uncalled for response knowing you are doing your best in a difficult situation. Please keep up the great work and thank you for accepting my apology.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

104. Don't feel bad. Your frustration is justified & I'm dealing with this first hand, too

I also believe there may be a way to provide voters with a receipt of some type that could not be tracked to your name. Heck-the way it is now, you get your vote number when you arrive at the polling place, turn that number in to another person who gives you your ballot. Could that number not be used to tie your name to how you voted? Every time I vote I wonder about that.

There are plenty of red flags and cases of improper procedure statewide in this recount. Human error or malfeasance or a combination of the 2 are all possibilities. Election fraud cannot be ruled out.

edit for typo

[eowyn_of_rohan]

131. Nothing wrong with your response.

We've all been victimized by election fraud for the past decade. You have a right to be frustrated, as many of us are.

[pacalo]

162. You have my profound respect -- just sayin'.

:yourock:

[w4rma]

92. Why don't you quit trying to stubbornly push a "solution" that creates a different type of fraud? nt

[think]

94. sorry I'm frustrated and apologize for my response

I guess I'd like to have a receipt. I wish the recount process well and regret my mean spirited response.

[w4rma]

157. No problem. I may have been a little agressive in my own response. (nt)

[catgirl]

176. You're on the right track

Don't let bullies tell you otherwise. No need to apologize for your honest opinions.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

66. That is what I would like, too. -nt

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

112. Yes, I have spoken with JoAnne personally 4 times.

I helped get the attorney from the campaign on site last week. Where have I "dissed elder {sic} poll workers" or mentioned volunteer names? Do tell.

Listen, this has been an emotional battle and some of us REALLY have our hearts in this because it is literally our backyards.

This is a "Discussion Board". People "discuss" and sometimes you don't agree with them. Sometimes there are topics about which people are VERY passionate and it feels TERRIBLE when someone disagrees with our exact view of the issue and we are SO emotional about it that we can't even see the simple things about which we agree.

It's fucking insane that I would dare discuss a topic that I am DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH on a board of which I have been a member for years, huh??!?!? How DARE I inject my opinion when it's slightly different from yours!?!? THE NERVE of me!

[freshwest]

147. Thanks, I could never have expressed how some of the fighting here arises as well as you did.

Thank you more for what you're doing in WI, we need as many like you as we can get stop the GOP train running over all of us. Sending love and strength to the front lines in WI.

:loveya:

:hug:

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

177. Nope. Never mentioned a volunteer's name.

Except in context of an exaggerated story about Delafield in which the story did. If you mean Ramona, she is not a volunteer. She is the Democrat on the Board of Canvassers.

Also super hilarious that you say I am attacking and I'm not the one getting posts deleted. I'd you think I am attacking, there is a handy button to rescue you.

[sybylla]

187. Harry Truman said he told the truth and Republicans thought it was hell.

That's all that PeaceNikki is doing here - telling the truth. I was an observer in another county and can vouch for you that she is doing all that she can legally, which isn't much beyond watching, objecting, and generally "observing."

What do you want? Are the Kloppenburg representative supposed to have a hissy fit every time something didn't get done right? Where would that get us but tossed out of the recount room?

So many people who are posting here, including Brad Friedman, whom I have a lot of respect for, don't seem to be understanding the role of this recount - to audit the actions of election night and since and to record the problems with the conduct of the polls, poll workers, and equipment.

As I have pointed out to others, the fact that bags of ballots were not sealed properly by itself isn't defacto evidence of fraud. It's evidence of irregularities - that's Joanne Kloppenburg's own word. Without eyewitnesses to an act of fraud, all Ms. Kloppenburg can do is send observers to collect the circumstantial evidence together and hope there is enough to build a case for tossing the most questionable votes. There will be no fraud conviction on a poorly sealed bag of ballots or a bag lacking the proper chain of custody records.

Should we be appalled that these kinds of things are happening. Of course. In the county I observed, everyone in the room, Republicans and Democrats, were appalled by the errors and problems - minor though the majority of them were. All of us are calling lawyers for Kloppenburg when the worst irregularities crop up.

But to label as suspicious or as traitors to the cause those of us who refuse to call something fraud when we could also explain so many of the "irregularities" as incompetence, willful neglect, failure of training programs or any number of other freaky but just a likely scenarios (if not more likely) is uncalled for and something I never expected to see.

Those of us who are on the ground are supposed to feed the meme or leave.

Well, guess what? We're telling the truth. If you don't like it, I guess that's hell.

[BradBlog]

205. Allow me to clarify a few points in response...

"What do you want? Are the Kloppenburg representative supposed to have a hissy fit every time something didn't get done right? Where would that get us but tossed out of the recount room?"

"Hissy fit"? In the room. Of course not. But there is plenty that could be done to bring these issues to light. Among them, bring them to the press every day, every instance. As well (and I'm looking through the WI statutes on this, so perhaps more details later), the case could be made in a court of law and/or the court of public opinion that every time an opened, unsealed bag is then destroyed to count the ballots within, evidence is being destroyed. Evidence that would otherwise be needed, be part of a forensic investigation, if criminal fraud charges were brought after the "recount" was completed.

An argument could be made that any such bags which are deficient in not meeting WI's standards for seals, security and such should be set aside for investigation and/or counting later. Absentee ballots are thrown out, as per the law, if they are missing a witness signature. Shouldn't hundreds of ballots which cannot be proven to have been the ones cast on election night face similar scrutiny when they too are deficient, and do not meet the standards set out by WI law?

Just asking here. As mentioned, I'm combing through some statutes, and either way, the case can be made in the court of public opinion (as the GOP would certainly do if the situation was reversed), so that the "sore loser" label would be less likely to stick when/if an official contest needed to be brought at the end of the "recount" process.

"So many people who are posting here, including Brad Friedman, whom I have a lot of respect for, don't seem to be understanding the role of this recount - to audit the actions of election night and since and to record the problems with the conduct of the polls, poll workers, and equipment."

I understand it very well.

"As I have pointed out to others, the fact that bags of ballots were not sealed properly by itself isn't defacto evidence of fraud. It's evidence of irregularities - that's Joanne Kloppenburg's own word."

Right. And, as per WI law, one doesn't need to show "evidence of fraud" that might change the election outcome. One can also demonstrate that enough "significant irregularities" exist that, were they set aside, it would change the election outcome, whether those irregularities stem from fraud or not.

"Without eyewitnesses to an act of fraud, all Ms. Kloppenburg can do is send observers to collect the circumstantial evidence together and hope there is enough to build a case for tossing the most questionable votes."

Again, not necessary to show proof of "fraud".

"There will be no fraud conviction on a poorly sealed bag of ballots or a bag lacking the proper chain of custody records."

Why not? It is evidence of potential fraud. AND that evidence would be needed in a fraud investigation. Destroying the evidence (cutting the bag, redistributing the ballots, etc.) seems like a very bad idea if such an investigation is determined to be needed.

"In the county I observed, everyone in the room, Republicans and Democrats, were appalled by the errors and problems - minor though the majority of them were."

Which county? And what were they?

"But to label as suspicious or as traitors to the cause those of us who refuse to call something fraud when we could also explain so many of the "irregularities" as incompetence, willful neglect, failure of training programs or any number of other freaky but just a likely scenarios (if not more likely) is uncalled for and something I never expected to see."

To be clear, I have done no such thing. If others have, obviously, I can't speak to that.

With that said, what evidence do you have that the "wide open" bags from Brookfield (for example) were due to "incompetence, willful neglect, failure of training programs or any number of other freaky but just a likely scenarios"?

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

181. Link me to the "dissing".

You can't cuz I didn't.

[catgirl]

98. self delete

[Marrah_G]

126. Ballots don't have names...

[peace frog]

56. Is the bradblog site down?

Getting an error message. Maybe too many trying to access at once? Help!

[think]

61. Bradblog down for me 2... nt

[Autumn Colors]

59. Brad ... cannot access your site

Just an FYI (because I know you were having trouble with AOL or some other ISPs blocking emails containing links to your site), I can't access your site. I just wanted to bring this to your attention. I'm not on AOL (my ISP is Cablevision).

The link you posted in the OP as well as just typing in http://www.bradblog.com brings up a page that says this:

WordPress
Error establishing a database connection

This either means that the username and password information in your wp-config.php file is incorrect or we can't contact the database server at mysql.ctyme.com. This could mean your host's database server is down.

Are you sure you have the correct username and password?
Are you sure that you have typed the correct hostname?
Are you sure that the database server is running?

If you're unsure what these terms mean you should probably contact your host. If you still need help you can always visit the WordPress Support Forums.

[fasttense]

67. I have the same problem getting on Brad blog.n/t

[deminks]

71. Me, too. :( Thank you, Brad, for all you do.

[elocs]

68. With this type of evidence, if Democrats cannot make a case for election fraud in this case

then they may as well pack it in. As bad as this is it is a golden opportunity for Democrats to hold up to the light the evidence of ballot tampering instead of constant crying that a close election was stolen. Proof is what we need and proof is forthcoming here in Wisconsin. If this opportunity is passed by as no big deal, then honest elections are truly over.

[sybylla]

89. At the moment, all it is evidence of is untrained poll workers

For proof of election tampering, I'm guessing you'd need a little more evidence than a poorly sealed ballot bag in a court of law.

That case is the responsibility of Joanne Kloppenburg. Not the DPW.

On the other hand, in the court of public opinion, it should suffice. The DPW isn't afraid to wade into the water on that. They're already charging the Republicans with fraud in the recall of three state senators. I'm sure if something comes out of this that they can get a good grip on, they'll not be afraid to wave it in front of the electorate with a giant, flashing, neon sign.

[elocs]

139. Watergate had humble and stupid beginnings that many thought nothing would come of it.

I didn't and at the time of the Watergate hearing I was working at my college's NPR station having to sit at the radio board and endure hours of testimony that I thought would not amount to anything.

These open bags are evidence that needs to be followed to wherever it leads.

[sybylla]

149. Still, humble beginnings don't amount to "this type of evidence..."

as you suggest in your original post - the kind of evidence that is obvious evidence of fraud and clearly actionable.

There has been nothing found yet that, on its own, appears to fit your description. Everything's circumstantial. Combined with other activities and failures, a case might be made. But without witnesses, you'd better expect it will be impossible to prove fraud.

And, as you proffer with your Watergate anecdote, may fall out the similarly in the end.

In this recount, the only people who are getting a complete picture (vs. a one or two county snapshot) are the two campaigns and the GAB.

Until KloJo's campaign looks at the evidence as a whole and builds a case worthy of presenting in a court of law, none of us can assume "this kind of evidence..." will get us anywhere. Even then, the most I expect will happen is that some of the ballots are tossed.

Either way, the call for pitchforks and torches against the Kloppenburg Campaign or (for some inexplicable reason) the DPW is premature.

[elocs]

165. It starts somewhere. No matter where it starts you just don't let it pass

and say well gee, it's just an incompetent but honest mistake. You follow it through until the end, you don't just let it go.

If there is no evidence to prove fraud then it will be just another Democratic "waaa, waaa" we was robbed episode.

[gkhouston]

210. Pretty odd there would be that many badly trained poll workers

in one county. The "bad bag" number for Waukesha seems much higher than for any other county--unless other Kloppenberg observers and the GAB are being vewwy quiet.

[MNBrewer]

69. Of COURSE Republicans are engaged in voter fraud!

They always, ALWAYS engage in what they accuse the other side of doing. So, when Republicans talk about making it harder to vote in order to prevent voter fraud, what we should hear is "We, the Republican Party, are engaged in massive voter fraud".

[Enthusiast]

137. YOU

are exactly right.

[zbdent]

74. gee ... how about that "liberal media bias"???

ACORN FOLLOWS THE LAW AND REPORTS PHONY VOTER REGISTRATIONS ... MEDIA SCREAMS!

Republican wins an election where shenanigans occur which would eclipse anything ACORN did ... hello? media??? hello????????

[Pab Sungenis]

75. I will ask it again.

WHY the HELL are Kloppenberg and, at this point, the State Democratic Party and the DNC NOT IN COURT THIS MINUTE DEMANDING THIS CRAP STOP? This is a CRIME IN PROCESS.

[fascisthunter]

77. makes one wonder

[PeaceNikki]

78. Because that's not how the process works.

Objections are made and the Board rules on it. They have been ruling to count, in some cases counting and tallying these bags separately. We are entering all of this into evidence and building a case for court AFTER recount is done.

This is a recount, NOT a fraud investigation. Horse before cart.

[sybylla]

85. Think of the recount like a bank or tax audit

We look at the numbers. We look at the process. We collect information from that. This is essentially a public examination of what happened on election night for each municipality in the state.

Only afterwards can the campaign build a case for challenging ballots based on the process and the numbers. They move forward into the courts if they believe they have a strong enough case to make.

And I would think the recount or audit process, when carried out incorrectly, would go to cause as well.

So any Board of Canvass conducting an audit inappropriately is only hurting their own cause.

[pacalo]

163. If an auditor came across a few bags of counterfeit bills & was directed to count them

with the legitimate bills instead of quarantining them, that's a red flag, no matter how you cut it.

Same with bags with missing serial numbers, mis-matching serial numbers, scratched out numbers, yadayadayada.

[sybylla]

174. Precisely. And so far, recount officials are doing exactly what you describe.

The bags with unrecorded serial numbers and the bags that are poorly sealed have been counted and the votes tabulated separately, by all reports to-date.

It's all noted and tracked and part of the public recount record in each county.

If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'm sure they'll post it.

[Zambero]

81. It's time to void the Waukesha County election results

And schedule a re-vote under the strictist supervision, with no "assistance" from county officials with a long standing record of (at best) incompetence or (at worst) corruption.

[queenjane]

119. My thoughts exactly

Don't think there is any conceivable way to have an accurate and trusted recount at this point.

[bertman]

82. Glad to see that Wisconsin Democrats are recognizing the blatant vote theft patterns of

the Right wing. Now if we could only get the national Democratic party to take this seriously. So far, they have ignored, obscured, and even denigrated those national Democratic politicians who tried to bring this issue front and center.

It's all part of the corporate takeover folks, so don't get too excited about the DLC considering this a "problem".

REC.

[Blue Owl]

95. COULD. IT. BE. ANY. MORE. FUCKING. OBVIOUS???????

THE GOP STEALS ELECTIONS.

STEALING ELECTIONS IS A CRIME.

CRIMINALS GO TO JAIL.

[valerief]

97. Criminals don't go to jail. War criminals don't. Election criminals don't.

This is a fascist state. We can't expect democracy. Not without a fight, anyway, and by fight, I mean fight in the traditional sense. Fisticuffs.

[L. Coyote]

108. Racial Discrimination in America = Millions of people have gone to jail and lost the vote!

How many people have gone to jail to deny them the vote?

[valerief]

117. True! But I thought they went to jail to work as slave labor for corporations.

I guess both things work out well for the gazillionaires who own us.

[FiveGoodMen]

148. "CRIMINALS GO TO JAIL"

Not in this fucking country.

Not if they're rich or well connected.

Not these days.

Presidents who campaign on 'Change' and glass-ceiling-breaking Speakers of the House declare that criminals will never even be bothered to defend their actions.

[emcguffie]

99. Please excuse me if this is a stupid question --

-- but why would they leave them so obviously tampered with? Why wouldn't they at least try to make them like like they should look? Could this have been done by someone to make them look bad?

That's not the answer I want to hear, but it just seems odd to go to the trouble of stuffing a ballot bag and then not to go to the trouble of closing it.

[PeaceNikki]

100. Those bags SUCK and are very difficult to seal properly.

They should be replaced with a much better solution. They are especially for older poll workers with arthritis and such. We need better bags that are easier to seal and more tamper-evident. Those things suck ass.

We have two board members who re-seal ballots after count and one of them REALLY has a hard time. Ramona, the Democrat, is VERY careful, VERY precise and always gets it right. The other lady's have had to be redone because she makes the same mistake that results in "seals" like we see in the Brookfield (and several other) bags.

I *wish* there was clear evidence of fraud. As of now, there's clear evidence of slop that there COULD have allowed for fraud, which is different. We're only about 20% done so it could shake out differently in the end. We'll keep watching and keep objecting and keep entering into evidence.

The Board will ALWAYS rule to count the ballots unless it's VERY clear (which it's not) or the numbers don't reconcile to tapes (and they've been).

[catgirl]

107. NOT TRUE

I got an email from the Kloppenburg campaign saying the exact opposite of what you're saying. You keep downplaying and/or disputing evidence of fraud. The
question is, why?

Here is what Kloppenburg's campaign is relaying:

Dear Friends,

Two weeks ago, with your support, JoAnne Kloppenburg asked for a statewide recount of the votes in the April 5 Supreme Court election.

Since then, the Kloppenburg Campaign and thousands of volunteers have been working tirelessly to ensure the recount is fair, transparent and open. The recount process continues to shed light on irregularities in this election - bags of ballots without seals, ballots found in a clerk's office, blank tapes from touch-screen machines, bags of ballots where the seal numbers do not match the logs. Our work is not complete.

[PeaceNikki]

110. What exactly in that is any way opposite of what I am saying?

Please be specific.

Also, please be aware that I *AM* one of the "thousands of volunteers have been working tirelessly to ensure the recount is fair, transparent and open."

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catgirl]

180. Read your own posts then

The complete opposite of what her campaign is saying. Your saying- nothing to see here... she's saying- yes there is!!!

what do you say to that?

[PeaceNikki]

182. Where have I said that?

I didn't.

Miss most of this post? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4841359&mesg_id=4841918

[catgirl]

190. You said the tapes match up

There have been blank tapes found. You said they have matched up. Perhaps as one of thousands of volunteers, you shouldn't post as an expert?

[PeaceNikki]

192. You don't understand anything I say.

You mistook Ramona for a volunteer, thought that when I said the bags suck and are difficult for elderly poll workers to properly seal that I was "dissing" them, and you misunderstood my reference to the ballot tally hand count numbers to election night tapes as having something to do with serial numbers.

Carry on.

[catgirl]

198. Talk circles

talk circles, talk circles.....

[catgirl]

199. You said...

"The Board will ALWAYS rule to count the ballots unless it's VERY clear (which it's not) or the numbers don't reconcile to tapes (and they've been).

Okay- "and they've been". WRONG. The Kloppenburg campaign claims they haven't. Busted PeaceNikki.

[PeaceNikki]

203. Lol. Where did they say that there were any reconciliation issues with ballots to canvass

In Waukesha? They didn't. We've had missing seals, mismatched seals, missing signtures, holes in bags and poorly sealed bags but no major irregularities with ballot counts and poll books.

[catgirl]

204. you forgot ... and blank tapes. ??

I'm done with you talking over me and ignoring what is uncomfortable for you. Good night.

[catgirl]

201. Volunteer or poll worker- doesn't matter

You're inferring that the wide open ballot bags are the result of old people with arthritis, who are sloppy...

That is a simply outrageous assumption. There are thousands of volunteers and only one comes on here and makes those kinds of claims.

[catgirl]

183. You said the numbers match up with the bags

Which is NOT true.Read the email I got again... and again, I say you aren't being truthful when you say that they have matched up (see your above post and the actual
campaign email that I posted). You will see that the information that you are feeding people here on DU is very different than the information that the Kloppenburg
campaign is posting to their entire email list.

????

[PeaceNikki]

184. The tallies. The counts. I wasn't talking about serial numbers.

[catgirl]

188. Yes you did

You specifically said the numbers match up, which THEY DON'T.

Again, the question is WHY are you saying this here?

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sybylla]

135. Actually quite true.

The campaign itself calls that list "irregularities," a list covering problems across the whole state.

Irregularities. Not fraud. Even KloJo isn't willing to go there yet. Irregularities, of course, could point to fraud. But by themselves are simply a list of things that weren't done properly. As PeaceNikki, I and others have been talking about.

The ballot bags in question in the original post that started this thread were improperly sealed bags. They were sealed, but not in a way to protect the sanctity of the ballots inside.

Everything PeaceNikki has said is true.

[Aerows]

172. Good question

"You keep downplaying and/or disputing evidence of fraud. The question is, why?"

You aren't the only one asking it, either.

I'm getting more and more suspicious as time goes by that not everyone commenting on this recount is actually interested in a fair recount.

[sybylla]

178. Because it is not evidence of fraud.

Even the Kloppenburg campaign calls it a list of irregularities.

You can call the irregularities fraud, but that doesn't make it so. I was a recount observer for Kloppenburg, as PeaceNikki is, and agree with everything she's said.

To this point, we (the recount people) have been gathering information on the irregularities. The campaigns will take that information and build a case, if there is one to be made, for fraud.

No one here is saying an "almost wide open" ballot bag is a good thing. But, lacking a witness to the deed, that by itself doesn't signify vote fraud or ballot manipulation.

The Kloppenburg campaign will need a boatload of circumstantial evidence to even go to court and then they'll be damn lucky to get anything more than small numbers of ballots thrown out.

Please, feel free to go all Chicken Little on this. Neither PeaceNikki nor I will stop you. But when we point out the lack of evidence of such a claim, we'd appreciate it if you didn't call into question our credibility.

This is a discussion board. Personal attacks are against the rules, distract from the discussion at hand, and detract from your credibility.

[catgirl]

185. The subject is evidence of fraud

if their is evidence, you investigate. No evidence, you don't investigate. If there is evidence- you ask questions. Don't
kill the messenger for seeing something askew.

[sybylla]

191. No. The subject is a recount.

A recount in the state of Wisconsin, as PeaceNikki has pointed out over and over again on this thread and others, isn't an investigation of fraud. It's an examination of the election process, the ballots, and the actions of the election workers on election day and afterwards.

Occam's razor says that the simplest explanation is the most likely. In this case, having been on the ground during this recount and several others, I can vouch for the fact that in the state of Wisconsin, incompetence, errors and the like are a far simpler explanation for these irregularities than all the steps necessary and all the election worker collaboration necessary to create ballot fraud.

You won't find the feds eager to race in to secure ballots or arrest people for election fraud in this state until there is far more obvious evidence than a collection of irregularities that look like clerical errors and incompetence.

That's the truth. Feel free to take it or leave it.

I'm already guessing which you'll choose, since nothing in my post had anything to do with killing any messenger. I find it rather telling that you suggest otherwise.

[catgirl]

195. Read the OP

The OP is the subject here, not the one you and others would like it to be.

[LanternWaste]

128. delete-- edit-- I'm a dork

Next time, I'll read before I respond. :P

[PeaceNikki]

129. Yes it is. That's the recalls, not recount.

[jsamuel]

113. in my opinion, it is because (if fraud did occur)

a) they thought that they had enough votes to avoid a recount
b) They HAD to leave the bags in this shape in order to tamper with them. Once you mess with the seal, there is no going back without putting a new seal on. Putting a new seal would cause another anomaly, namely the seal number and the number on the bag wouldn't match.

[socialist_n_TN]

106. I'm almost tired of posting on these types of threads................

because I seem to be posting on them CONSTANTLY. I'd like to see the Feds wade in because voter fraud has GOT to be considered a civil rights violation.

Waukesha County's votes should be thrown out IF there was ANY sort of chain of custody issues. Doing anything else just INVITES voter fraud by Republicans. Or you can do a revote with STRICT controls, including outside observers at ALL of the polling places during the voting and multiple observers at every step of the process up to and through the counting and recounting.

IF you don't get it right in this election, why do you think they'll get it right in the recall elections. Never mind. I'm going to make this an OP.

[Dr Fate]

145. Feds get involved?LOL! No, here at DU, we make excuses for why that cant/wont happen.

If you are waiting on Reid, Pelosi, Obama et al to get involved, you might be in for a long wait.

[Botany]

109. Scott Walker has already let the cat out of the bad

Scott Walker, " ..... as long as there aren't ballots somehow found out of the blue that weren't counted before ..... "

[L. Coyote]

121. Yeah, when did Walker get the news the public got latter?

If not, when did Walker say to hold back the Waukesha votes until ...?

What was really happening with the unusual reporting habits in this county?
Was Waukeska being manipulated during the election count to play politics if not to play election rigging politics?

[catgirl]

186. Not to mention he met with Prosser that very night

... in secret ...

[pacalo]

196. And Prosser was in Delafield earlier & most of the day where those "found" ballots came from.

Kathy Nickolaus, remember, took several days before reporting the numbers she "discovered".

[ElsewheresDaughter]

118. time for a complete do over....time for a revote......do new election

[the_chinuk]

120. WITH United Nations observers, just to keep the Republicans honest.

… heh. "Keeping the Republicans honest". I just made a funny there.

[toddwv]

122. Now we know why Nickolaus "recused" herself from vote recount.

She had other more important things to do...

[bvar22]

123. 92% of the American people support Transparent, Verifiable elections.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

After the Stolen election in 2000,
and the "questionable" election of 2004,
you would think this would be a HOT issue with the Democratic Party Leadership,
an easy WIN/WIN.
.
.
.
but only SILENCE from our party leadership,
and MORE unverifiable Black Box Voting.

Venezuela HAS open, transparent, verifiable elections,
but that is too hard for the USA?


Dennis Kucinich is RIGHT again.

1)Single Day Voting/National Holiday

2)Paper Ballots

3)Hand Counted IN PUBLIC (live internet video feed) AT the voting/polling station
(NO vote bags/boxes moved to another location until the votes are counted)

4)Independent Exit Polls!!!!

5)Results posted on the door


Sorry, Oregon,
but Mail In Voting is the LEAST secure/verifiable way to maintain Election Integrity.

...because elections in the USA are too important to leave up to The People

[Zorra]

124. +100,000,000,000

[KamaAina]

125. Eric Holder needs to get out there pronto

and bring a few U.S. marshals with him.

[pscot]

127. +1

What's the chance of that happening?

[iwishiwas]

141. Tammy Baldwin, Dem WI asked Holder in a formal letter a long time

ago to do just that.

[Dr Fate]

146. Eric Holder has already issued a statement (link included)!!!!!!

LOL! Made you look. My guess is the feds are just hoping that all this "Liberal Union stuff" just goes away.

Id the previous DEM record of chanllenging stolen elections is any indicator, I'd say we may as well hang this up.

I'll be proven wrong as soon as Holder, Obama, Reid, Pelosi, etc. spend some time on this like they have on bombing the middle east, busting medical marajuana paitents, etc.

[KamaAina]

158. This is no longer "Liberal Union stuff"

it's "Felony Election Fraud stuff".

One wonders why, given recent history, mainstream Dems aren't more outraged by it.

[Dr Fate]

159. Tell that to Reid, Pelosi, Obama, Holder, etc.

Until they come out swinging, I'll assume they want this to go away so they can get back to the "new normal" that was going so well b/f all these liberals starting getting uppity.

"Mainstream" DEMS are not outraged by it b/c they are not Liberals, or they are frightened that proven liars in the GOP/media might call them Liberals.

Many "mainstream" DEMS are "centrists"- meaning that they agree with the right on certain things. For instance-"Mainstream" DEMS seemed to agree with the media/GOP that the 2000, 2002 & 2004 elections were all on the level and did not need to be challenged or even investigated. My guess is this trend will continue. Cant wait to be proven wrong.

[L. Coyote]

130. "most mysterious, low-profile, covert, shadowy, questionable mechanisms of American democracy"

"one of the most mysterious, low-profile, covert, shadowy, questionable mechanisms of American democracy is the American vote count."

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam01.htm

[bvar22]

152. Elections in the USA are too important to leave up to The People,

besides, fair, transparent elections would interfere with the power sharing agreement between the two parties.
The illusion of a choice must be maintained.

[Dr Fate]

144. Reid, Pelosi and Obama have all issued statements demanding a Federal Investigation. (link included)

LOL! Just kidding. Made you look. Maybe in an alternate dimension.

[Zorra]

154. dammit dammit dammit! For once I thought they were actually gonna do something.

I owe, you Dr.Fate...beware the wrath of Zorra;-)

[Dr Fate]

155. They are gonna do something.

Sitting around hoping that the base does not demand they do anything that makes them look "too Liberal" is doing *something*.

[Zorra]

161. Maybe even a strongly worded letter!

They always work.

[JohnWxy]

150. The Fascists are following another proponent of totalitarianism ... Josef Stalin, who said:

"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." (Josef Stalin)

Recommended.

[Kurovski]

153. The ever "predictable" election system. (nt)

:kick:

[flamingdem]

156. I hope the dough brings out the rats!!!!!!! nt

[defendandprotect]

164. Hope this story is getting attention outside of Wisconsin -- Rachel, Ed ... O'Donnell ... ???

Not something that corporate-press is going to be much interested in,

I expect????????? Hope I'm wrong!

[Doctor_J]

211. I say we get really, really pissed and sign ANOTHER petition

that will put a stop to this! :rofl: