Nuclear meltdown at Fukushima plant

[bananas]

Source: Telegraph

One of the reactors at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi power plant did suffer a nuclear meltdown, Japanese officials admitted for the first time today, describing a pool of molten fuel at the bottom of the reactor's containment vessel.

Engineers from the Tokyo Electric Power company (Tepco) entered the No.1 reactor at the end of last week for the first time and saw the top five feet or so of the core's 13ft-long fuel rods had been exposed to the air and melted down.

Previously, Tepco believed that the core of the reactor was submerged in enough water to keep it stable and that only 55 per cent of the core had been damaged.

Now the company is worried that the molten pool of radioactive fuel may have burned a hole through the bottom of the containment vessel, causing water to leak.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8509502/Nuclear-meltdown-at-Fukushima-plant.html

[Xipe Totec]

1. China Syndrome nt

[some guy]

11. There should be a different name

China syndrome is loosely based on the idea of a US nuke plant melting down, all the way through the world and "coming up" in China - like in cartoons.

Since this meltdown started next door to China, it needs a different name for when it "comes up" in the US.

:D

Apart from that, quelle surprise that it's turning out to be as bad as the doom-n-gloomers were saying it would as opposed to being all easily contained like TEPCO and their gullible believers claimed.

[neoralme]

12. In what could be the vector that will change or even end life on

Earth, why in the name of God should we be worried about the name?

[some guy]

116. No reason.

I started reading this thread this morning, and the "China syndrome" response caught the weird part of my brain is all.

I'm not worried about the name.

Actually, I'm not particularly worried about the event either. It's one of (many) things that I have no ability to control or affect in any measurable way, so from my own perspective, it will either change (or not) or end life (or not) on Earth, whether I worry or ignore it.

[Martin Eden]

22. Core Syndrome

It's a meltdown of the core, and if gravity pulled it inexorably downward it would ultimately reach the earth's Core (ridiculous to think it would then proceed upwards against gravity to come out of the crust on the opposite side of the globe).

[some guy]

113. I think I like this best.

(and, wow, I didn't think I'd get so many responses to my post.)


Thanks to everyone who played. :)

[liberation]

25. Yeah and Lou Gehrig's disease has affected to people other than Lou Gehrig...

... plenty of concepts are named after who, where, or when they were first discovered, defined, or verified. The oceans are exhausted as they are, no need for pointless red herring fishing expeditions.


BTW, the whole China syndrome is nonsense anyway. Not because the naming of it, but because the concept itself is an implausibility: Most of the earth is made of molten rock, the core would dissolve pretty quickly if it were to pass through the crust (and that would be highly unlikely to begin with). The dangers in the containment of a molten nuclear core, however, are nothing but dire.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

36. That's a fundamental failure to understand the phenomenon.

Nobody is suggesting that the molten core is actually going to bore its way through to China. It's just a colloquial term for when the core melts its way through the floor of the containment building. It doesn't mean it will come out the other side.

Oh, and if we're being pedantic, you forgot to mention that the melted core, if it even got that far, would come to rest at the Earth's center of gravity.

[KansDem]

99. It might hit a strata of water, in which an explosive geyser would erupt

A geyser of radioactive steam.

Then we all die...

[AtheistCrusader]

267. Yes, because that would be totally worse than what happened at Chernobyl

[liberation]

100. So what you're trying to say is that you did not understand my point

Apparently.

The so-called "China Syndrome" is both a misnomer and a implausibility, the core once melted does not really go that far into the ground actually.

[nadinbrzezinski]

272. Actually they have a better chance there of going

into the earth's core, due to how thin the crust is there... and in this case... would be a ... self cleaning outcome, for the reasons you outlined. It would become part of the magma pretty dang quick.

Not saying it will happen, but...

[ChadwickHenryWard]

29. The antipode of Tokyo, Japan,

according to Wolfram Alpha, is in the Atlantic Ocean, just off the coast of Uruguay.

[Jackpine Radical]

35. Antipode, schmantipode.

"Just-off-the-coast-of-Uruguay Syndrome" is going nowhere, I tell ya.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

40. How about

"Ohfuckohfuckohfuckohfuckohfuck... Syndrome?" Sounds pretty catchy to me.

Although, that might not translate well into Japanese.

[FiveGoodMen]

115. Of course it translates to Japanese. Their word is Fukushima.

[WheelWalker]

126. +1

[krispos42]

41. Wow, that's a cool website!

If I bore straight down I pop up on the southwest coast of Australia. :-)

[TBF]

94. Thank you for that website reference -

very cool!

[Jackpine Radical]

34. The Omaha Syndrome?

[slackmaster]

48. Automatic spell checkers will change that to Obama Syndrome

So let's not go there.

[Jackpine Radical]

69. Amarillo Syndrome?

Like, who gives a shit if Spellcheck turns it into Armadillo Syndrome? Pretty much the same thing.

[krispos42]

37. Ohio Syndrome

After the Japanese reactor pile pops up in Boehner's back yard.


Doubtless he'll embrace it as a "green energy solution" before vomiting up his shoes.

[peace4ever]

42. Meltdown

[slackmaster]

49. I call it a big fat fucking mess

:nuke:

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

89. The Rio Syndrome

Actually, the opposing side of the earth is in the ocean off the coast of Brazil, but calling it the "In the Ocean Off the Coast of Brazil Syndrome" would drive headline writers crazy.

[valerief]

107. You mean they're covering it in Da Newz? I thought Da Newz was all about Gingrich. nt

[SkyDaddy7]

112. No, actually antipode of Fukushima, Japan is...

of the coast almost right in between Uruguay & Argentina...Not Brazil. In the Atlantic Ocean off the Coast right in between Uruguay & Argentina Syndrome...And Yes, that would drive headline writers crazy!!

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=antipode+of+Fukushima%2C+Japan

[Raster]

90. I propose we call it "The Minnesota Syndrome"

[boppers]

120. "as bad as the doom-n-gloomers were saying it would"

As in, life on earth has actually been ended?

[Drew Richards]

123. How about "The Truth of Nuclear Power"

:)

We are after all in a closed environment and it's gonna spread...

Funny?

I got shouted down and abused two weeks ago complaining about the radiation detectors being taken off line...people on here called bull*** and demanding proof. Well I gave you the proof and the site to the EPA's sporadic monitoring data.

Hope you liked attacking me...may you glow in the dark....

Now it is a national news story and Fukushima announces they did have a meltdown two weeks ago...and the EPA says they had to take West Coast monitoring offline because of budget cuts...yeah right...

Keep smoking that Nuclear power is safe rhetoric. (that is directed to the few pro nuc freaks on here, and not to the rest of the lovely open to debate humans on DU)

[CoffeeCat]

125. Anyone who did their research...

understood that TEPCO was full of lies.

I'm no nuclear physicist, but the lies and the propaganda coming out of TEPCO and also
in our own media--were laughable. All you had to do was read the comments sections from
any Fukushima article, in the New York Times. Experts would chime in, and expose how
ridiculous the disinformation was.

One commenter left their name, job title and credentials. He was a nuclear-energy expert
who had worked in plants--and was now a professor. He pointed out a source quoted was
a well-known lobbyist working for the energy companies. Many experts/commenters had
amazing things to say, and I learned so much from those comment sections.

It wasn't long before the comment sections disappeared from most Fukushima articles--and now,
most of the articles have disappeared.

This has been the most heavily propagandized and corporate run disaster in recent history--much, much
worse than BP.

Again, I'm no scientist, but I have worked in corporate PR for decades--and believe me, I know a
concerted messaging campaign--complete with "planted quotes" from "experts".

[Dennis Donovan]

234. The Crawford TX syndrome?

Wouldn't Chimpy shit if, when he was out "shootin' at some food; and up thru the ground came bubbling nuke"? :D

[ClarkUSA]

164. Japan Syndrome would be more accurate. Tsunami Syndrome even more so. nt

[dixiegrrrrl]

2. NOW the company is worried...?????

Everybody BUT Tepco has pointed out the probability of the meltdown for weeks now.
People on DU were smacked down when they posted information to that effect.
People here on DU were smacked down when they even expressed concern over the possibility of a meltdown.

Sheesh.

Meanwhile, what is our EPA saying? **crickets**

[Art_from_Ark]

279. Let's put some things into perspective here

People were going waaay overboard on posting alarmist crap, like saying matter-of-factly that Tokyo was being evacuated, that the whole country was contaminated with high levels of nuclear radiation, and that there was a total meltdown that would result in a huge nuclear explosion and stuff like that. They were also in full panic mode when 25 countries announced that they were closing their embassies temporarily, even though most of them were tiny countries. Speaking as someone who is actually living here in Japan-- between Tokyo and the reactors-- and having access to a wealth of sources of information about this disaster, I could tell that a lot of that was hyperbole. People were telling me to "see the reality" when I was "seeing reality" around me every day.

The company had actually acknowledged a partial meltdown with corium several weeks ago, and just after the initial disaster the Asahi Shimbun newspaper carried a huge headline "MELTDOWN" (in Japanese). It's not like what is being reported in this thread is earth-shattering news here in Japan. And radiation readings taken by a host of different organizations, including the Japanese government, prefectural governments, municipal governments, research institutes, universities, the IAEA, the United States DoE, all indicate that by far the worst of this nuclear mess is concentrated in Fukushima prefecture-- which is bad for people in Fukushima, and I sympathize with them greatly. However, in the rest of the country, radiation readings are still normal, or near normal.

[flamingdem]

3. Unanswered question: Do they have a concrete catchment underneath or not?

If I remember correctly they did not build that at Fukushima.

[Robbien]

20. Tepco is refusing to answer that question

Per the abc interview today, an excerpt:

MARK COLVIN: See I asked the nuclear regulator in that first week about what was under that vessel in reactor number one because I had been told that there wasn't necessarily anything; there wasn't a proper containment vessel, a concrete containment vessel under the metal containment vessel.

He didn't know and I've never seen a satisfactory answer to that; do we know what's underneath?

MARK WILLACY: I think you're not the only one who hasn't seen a satisfactory answer; the Japanese people certainly haven't been told. Obviously Tepco has now squashed it's obviously three or four press conferences a day into one. The Japanese media get all the questions and I don't believe that that question, either it hasn't been asked or it hasn't been answered.

So it's a very good question and it's one that Tepco hasn't provided an answer on at least at this stage.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2011/s3215380.htm

There's a video and recap of the entire interview at the link. Scary stuff.


So reactor one has fully melted down and not likely protected from ground water
Reactors two and three are partially melted down and are leaking radioactive water
Reactor four is dangerously leaning, fears of tipping over

and there is some serious radioactive pollution around the little mentioned reactors 5 and 6.

But nothing to see here, move along folks.

[makhno]

23. Lots of obfuscation surrounding this accident

Everyone involved in this disaster has been about as forthcoming with information as Soviet authorities were regarding Chernobyl. Times of crisis such as these tend to bring out some very troubling similarities between the world's current regime and various systems of days past.

[corkhead]

55. Union Carbide wrote the book on it

Exxon improved it and BP perfected it.

[Blue_Tires]

109. Yeah, there is a LOT of "under-estimating" from the officials

on just how bad things could get...

[boppers]

5/13 = 100%?

Interesting math, tell me more!

[AtheistCrusader]

38. There should be.

But I sure as hell can't tell anymore. This has gone well beyond my benefit of the doubt, that the company would do the right things.

Most of this shit was totally avoidable, while still leveraging nuclear power. I am seriously beginning to question if even the newer reactor designs can be implemented with an acceptable margin of safety.

This has gotten just flat goddamn ridiculous.

If there is no catchment, and the corium bores through the full containment, i'm done. I'll never support nuclear power again.

[makhno]

54. The company won't spontaneously do the right thing

No company will. Governments, even purportedly socialist ones, don't have a much better track record either, as Chernobyl's RBMK design demonstrated.

The sad thing is that nuclear power could be leveraged fairly safely, provided there exists the will to do so. Cost cutting has no place in mission critical designs, especially in domains where the consequences of failure have dramatic global implications.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything changing for the better when "austerity" is the order of the day and corruption and private/public collusion inevitably lead to shitty outcomes regardless of the money spent.

Depressing stuff.

[SkyDaddy7]

114. I totally agree! This is a shame! nt.

[lfairban]

162. There, now, as it was here, then.

The question is not, "Can we build safe reactors?", but, "Will we build safe reactor?".

I am sure we can, I am not so sure we will.

[Uncle Joe]

4. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, bananas.

[jpak]

5. This will take decades to "resolve" - if it can be resolved at all

no nukes

yup

[neoralme]

13. Under existing technology it cannot be resolved.

[Taft_Bathtub]

70. Yes it can

They cleaned up Three Mile Island fine.

[Courtesy Flush]

78. There was no meltdown at TML

This is much much worse.

[Taft_Bathtub]

82. Yes there was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident

[liberation]

105. There are meltdowns, and then there are meltdowns

Chernobyl was also a meltdown...

[Taft_Bathtub]

110. That's why the term is generally not used in scientific circles

Because of how different the severity a "meltdown" actually is. Technically any fuel melting is a meltdown, yet in the media and in most people's minds a meltdown is green glowing goo pouring down the street.

[liberation]

129. "Technically any fuel melting is a meltdown..."

Now the issue is wether it is the spare fuel rods that melted, or the core itself.

If the rods are melted, that is still a big issue because it would make the containment efforts to deal with the core really really difficult, due to the situation they create in the vicinity of the reactor. And an unattended reactor will eventually lead to a core meltdown. And a core meltdown is as catastrophic of a failure as can happen for a nuclear reactor. Yes there are several levels of "severity": it ranges from "we're pretty fucked" to "kiss your ass goodbye."

So this event is far from Three Mile Island...

[Art_from_Ark]

236. According to Asahi TV News, it was not a core meltdown

The term "meltdown" as it was used in the Japanese news report refers to a breach in the containment vessel but not a meltdown of the entire core.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz5UNgrWzhk

[liberation]

242. A breach in the containment vessel usually precedes a full meltdown

given the precariousness of the cooling systems in Fukushima.

But hey, if discussing semantics makes it easier to cope with the situation...

[Art_from_Ark]

282. How can you say that a "breach in the containment vessel

usually precedes a full meltdown"? Can you cite past examples of where this has happened?

And yes, semantics are important. Do you not know the difference between "confirmed" and "believed to be"? That is, do you not understand the difference between fact and opinion?

[Throckmorton]

84. Yes, there was a melt down at TMI

But there was no breach of the reactor vessel or the containment floor.

This accident makes TMI look like a non-event by comparison.

[AtheistCrusader]

101. Yes, TMI partially melted down.

This is different, as they are indicating the core material has escaped the steel RPV.

[neoralme]

80. Three Mile Island? Surely you jest. Not remotely in the same

catagory of danger.

[Taft_Bathtub]

83. Both are meltdowns

This one got hit by a Tsunami and an Earthquake, that's the main difference.

[makhno]

92. Indeed

But I'd be tempted to say that the main difference is the breach of containment at Fukushima and the operator's inability to do much about it. How they got there is a bit incidental at this point.

Frankly, comparing this to TMI is like comparing Bhopal to an overturned hazmat truck on the Interstate.

[Taft_Bathtub]

95. TEPCO is doing a lot about it

It just takes awhile because, you know, the entire countryside was wiped out by a 9.0 Earthquake and Tsunami.

[liberation]

103. Ah, so that makes it OK and stuff then

[AtheistCrusader]

268. I think it's interesting to see people shitting on TEPCO for taking a step that will reduce radiatio

n releases into the environment.

I would think people would cheer somewhat. How dare they try and limit the fallout from the site, amirite?

[makhno]

232. I've no doubt they're trying to do something

Just as I have no doubt there are many stories of individual heroism among the workers trying to stabilize and cleanup this mess. That's not the point.

What I'm saying is that there's little they can actually do at this point, short of building a Chernobyl-style sarcophagus around the affected buildings.

I don't know if it's a question of cost, arrogance, incompetence, or the combination of all of these factors, but a number of scientists mentioned the futility of dumping water into the containment buildings very, very early on. It seems they've been ignored.

I'm also not at all convinced by the argument that since the plant and the surrounding area have been severely affected by an earthquake and a tsunami, TEPCO, GE, the Japanese and U.S. governments somehow have any kind of leeway in passing the buck for both the plant's shitty design and the fact that we are now looking at an apparently unforeseen failure mode to mother nature.

The long and the short of it is that this POS should not have been built where it was and how it was. I'm as much a supporter of nuclear energy as you'll find here on DU, but this is the kind of crass incompetence and deceit that will doom nuclear energy in the eyes of many. If we are serious about this type of energy, we need to make sure it's done right with the highest levels of transparency.

[AtheistCrusader]

102. No longer comparable.

If the core material has burned through the base of the reactor pressure vessel, we are well beyond a TMI event in terms of cleanup/halting the issue.

To say nothing of the massive amount of radiation released, and lack of control and access to the site (Compared to TMI).

Comparing in the other direction, toward Chernobyl, we're still doing pretty good, but it could get a whole lot worse at Fukushima, yet.

[chervilant]

280. hmm...

How long did that take? And, where are the tons and tons of radioactive waste they removed from the site? And, how did they transport said waste? And, over which route did said waste travel?

To date, the nuclear energy industry has not developed a protocol for long term storage of nuclear waste, salt domes notwithstanding (talk to ANY geologist worth his/her salt about this idea).

We concerned members of the hoi polloi are still treated like mushrooms: kept in the dark and fed lots of bovine feces. However, increasing numbers of us are advocating for safe, renewable energy and sustainability, with the fervent hope that we're not too late.

[greenman3610]

6. Germany and Japan declare non-nuclear futures

http://climatecrocks.com/2011/05/12/germany-japan-charting-non-nuclear-low-carbon-renewable-futures/

With yesterday’s announcement by Japan that 14 new nuclear power plants have been shelved in favor of greater emphasis on renewable energy and efficiency, two of the world’s top economies have now explicitly declared themselves as front runners for leadership in the multi-trillion dollar race to become sustainably-powered societies.

Germany’s Angela Merkel made an announcement last month that Germany would “..exit from nuclear power generation as soon as possible and make the transition to renewable energy sources..”

Germany is already among the world leaders in deployment of renewable technologies, with widely copied Feed in Tariff policies that have made the the northern European country an unlikely leader in solar energy, and in some parts of the country, so much wind power is being produced that consumers are being “paid to keep the lights on.”

[mountainlion55]

9. Sorry

Its too little to late. The history of humanity could have predicted this. Two headed babies anyone?:nuke:

[ladywnch]

14. actually, one was just born the other day, ..... I think in Japan.

they have two heads and two esophagus but share just about everything else.

[peace4ever]

21. Two-headed baby born in China (video)

A mother in China has given birth to conjoined twins who share a single body.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/weirdnewsvideo/8504107/Two-headed-baby-born-in-China.html

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

33. Why?

P4E, this is only to respond to the matter, it is not directed towards you in any way.

I love life, I love new life, but why in the name of gods green & blue earth is that baby
allowed to live?

I know this is cold and I expect to be flamed, but really? Really?

What kind of life can "they" expect? Grief just fills my heart.

Just because we can, does not mean we should.

[peace4ever]

39. Abigail and Brittany Hensel born in the US in 1990 are leading very productive lives

more...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_and_Brittany_Hensel

[KamaAina]

52. My goodness, they're lovely!

Anyone want to double? :loveya:

[peace4ever]

56. aren't they!

and they have great personalities, too!

Abigail & Brittany Hensel (Age 19)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZUzi0RhBpM

:hi:

[AtheistCrusader]

43. It's up to the parents to try.

I generally agree with you, however, there are outlier cases of people living, what they feel are fulfilling lives in this condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_and_Brittany_Hensel

[defendandprotect]

45. They could have only brought that pregnancy to term by KNOWING about it ---

and evidently deciding it should not be aborted --

and that extraordinary steps would be taken to bring about a live birth.

[peace4ever]

47. they did not know about it until just before the due date

fyi

[defendandprotect]

50. So she had pre-natal care --

but no one noticed until almost the due date that there were two heads -- ???

Or that anything was wrong -- ?

I'm not familiar with the details, but if the woman was too poor to have early

pre-natal care, then she would have normally been too poor to afford extraordinary

means to deliver such a pregnancy.

[MilesColtrane]

66. deleted

[uppityperson]

106. There is a set of cojoined twins like this in MN. They are very nice girls, here's a link

They are in college. Yes, you are cold. What would you do, kill them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_and_Brittany_Hensel

[peace4ever]

53. Two ultra sound scans in September and February failed to reveal the two heads because

Two ultra sound scans in September and February failed to reveal the two heads because the technicians were viewing the single embryo in profile.

from the article I posted above.

[defendandprotect]

64. Something a midwife would have figured out, but two electronic scans couldn't?

[ZombieHorde]

104. Why do you think a midwife would have figured it out? nt

[defendandprotect]

136. Because they would have FELT two heads and only one body ....

[ZombieHorde]

161. I guess the lesson is: don't rely too much on technology.

Technology is good, but so are the five senses.

[defendandprotect]

149. If you've ever been pregnant you know you can feel parts of the baby's body

at various times -- from elbows to knees -- and heads!!

[ZombieHorde]

150. I wonder why the mother never felt her own stomach.

Seems like she would have been curious about the two round melons in her tummy.

[defendandprotect]

153. True -- maybe she thought she was having twins?

[AtheistCrusader]

269. You realize people have gone into labor not previously knowing they were pregnant at all?

Right?

Not every pregnancy is the same.

[uppityperson]

108. And this is related to Fukushima nuke plant meltdown...how? Or are you saying that there already

are co-joined twins? Yes, there have been co-joined twins forever.

[defendandprotect]

137. Radiation = DNA damage -- See Iraq -- Depleted Uranium --- and PLUTONIUM at Fuku-!!

[uppityperson]

141. I really doubt this co-joined twin became that way from Fukushima

Since it was in China and they were almost ready to be born when Fukushima nuke plant went kaplooeee.

Typically this happens early on, not during the last month of pregnancy.

[defendandprotect]

146. No one said that -- HOWEVER, radiation creates a fear of DNA damage and

leukemia, cancers --

Radiation = DNA damage -- See Iraq -- Depleted Uranium --- and PLUTONIUM at Fuku-!!

Reference was IRAQ to be noted -- damage to newborns there over decades as US refused to

clean up the depleted uranium as requested by Iraq and UN --

and damage to children born to our own soldiers, subsequently.


Again -- this isn't only about uranium -- the Fukushima plants also have PLUTONIUM --

you might read something about that!!

[uppityperson]

147. That is why I was asking the poster @beginning of this subthread.

By the way, your usage of bold doesn't do much for making what you are writing any more clear.

"See Iraq -- Depleted Uranium --- and PLUTONIUM at Fuku-!!" means what?

Neither does excessive usage of exclamation marks!!!!!

[defendandprotect]

148. And what did the poster say in reply to you ... ????

I bolded the one section to make clear that it was a repeat from my prior

post --


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[uppityperson]

151. Well, looking at the thread, he/she hasn't replied. Only you have.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[defendandprotect]

154. True -- and the reason they didn't reply is because it was a silly quesiton ....

i.e., we all understand that nuclear represents a fear of DNA damage --

especially to a fetus --

[uppityperson]

158. Are you saying you are peace4ever or can read her/his mind?

peace4ever didn't answer "because it was a silly question" yet you did. Hmmmm.

[defendandprotect]

163. I'm saying ...

I recognize a silly question when I see one --

[uppityperson]

165. Asking for clarification is silly. Gotcha. Bye

[StarsInHerHair]

168. sounds like an excuse to not take the road out of this mess

I prefer to take the 'Green Road', bye.

[makhno]

44. Not sure how I feel about this

I'm wondering whether building new, safer nuclear plants might be a better idea than relying on 30-40 year old plants such as the one at Fukushima while waiting for renewable energy to provide the output currently produced by nuclear energy.

[peace4ever]

46. 3 things to think about

1. what do we do with all the waste? (which by curent EPA standards must be contained for 1 million years before it is considered 'safe')
2. disasters happen (no matter how good the tech. especially with 'new' tech)
3. there are safe, clean, renewable alternatives.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

51. Larger question is the one effecting us all -- what do we do about this level of insanity ....

and greed among those who control our nations?

[Taft_Bathtub]

71. Waste is recyclable

Also there are reactors that run off waste.

Disasters do happen, which is why you must weigh Nuclear against other forms of energy.

And the renewable alternatives are not able to produce the electricity that Nuclear can, are not suited to all regions, and are not anywhere near cost effective. Greens are great, they should be built, but you're still going to need nuclear energy.

[nc4bo]

79. Are you referring to thorium reactors? Has one actually been built yet?

And why not heavily subsidize renewable energy like we do nuclear and oil?

If we can't control it when it goes BOOM, we have no business building it and I feel exactly the same way about deep sea drilling. No way to control a runaway oil gushing volcano a mile or 2 under the water surface? We have no business doing it in the first place.

And what about promoting energy conservation? We really don't do much of that either.

[Taft_Bathtub]

85. India has a Thorium reactor

The U.S. had one in the sixties but shut it down because it didn't make weapons-grade material for nuclear bombs.

And I'd love to not subsidize Coal or Oil, Nuclear gets "loan guarantees" but it's not really even in the same category as those two regarding subsidies.

Nuclear has a pretty good track record of being controlled, it doesn't go BOOM.

You can conserve energy all you want, eventually you'll need more of it.

[nc4bo]

91. Yea ok - you like playing Russian Roulette, I don't.

And btw, I wish I would have saved a DU link showing the incident reports and violations from your precious nuclear power plants, not especially comforting in the light of the human and environmental damage potential. I guess those are included in their good track record too, right?

I hope I never see the day where we have a catastrophe as serious as Chernobyl or Fukushima. Hope it never happens but suspect we wouldn't have a clue on how to deal with it either.

One positive fact regarding thorium reactors and that's there's tons and tons of "waste" available. Burn Baby Burn, right?

Wouldn't you consider renewable energy technology to be in it's infancy compared to nuclear and oil? How do any of us know what this technology is capable of?

[Taft_Bathtub]

96. Every energy source is Russian Roulette

I wish you had saved them. If you're looking for an energy source that has no violations or incidents then you should return to the stone age, it just isn't feasible.

You do consider in your alternative energies the huge repercussions of them failing, right? If it's cloudy for 2 days you have nationwide rolling blackouts because solar doesn't work. Or a volcano in northern europe causes overcast conditions, or the wind doesn't blow...you do know that has serious side effects for the rest of the population when their is no energy, right? Food spoils, air conditioners don't work, elevators turn off, hospitals run on backup generators, traffic lights go out.

And Chernobyl and Fukushima are complete non-events compared to what the Oil and Natural Gas industry do on a daily basis, at power plants that run "correctly." You do realize how many people die each year not just from mining coal, but from living near the power plants that release more toxic and radioactive materials than nuclear plants ever have, right?

I don't consider Nuclear energy to be past infancy, scientists still haven't cracked fusion and most new technologies/reactors cannot be built because of costs/political concerns.

[defendandprotect]

140. Solar and Wind are "Russian Roulette" ..... ???

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

159. Yes ... I know --- and agree with you 1000% ---

:)

[AtheistCrusader]

270. At some level of scope and scale, yes.

You can be killed installing it. You can be killed by DC or AC electricity.

All forms of stored energy and energy production are inherently dangerous to some degree.


Granted, it's not a very meaningful statement to point that out, since there is a vast disparity in risk, but there is also vast disparity in generating capacity.

[defendandprotect]

155. What nuclear gets in guarantees is HUGE because these plants couldn't be built w/o government

guarantees --

NO PRIVATE COMPANY WILL ENSURE THEM -- which should make quite clear the

damage that can and has occurred -- so far in Japan $300 billion

in damage -- and I doubt any of that amount has anything to do with the

Pacific Ocean and animal life!

[peace4ever]

81. no it isn't - it is a million year problem that still doesn't have a solution

National Academy of Sciences recommended standards be set for the time of peak risk, which might approach a period of one million years, which is the current epriod that EPA must regulate any nuclear waste.

more info...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Waste_Policy_Act

Disasters do happen.

Nuclear energy is not cost effective when you take into account all the cost associated with the construction of the plant, and storage of the waste, let alone when disasters happen. they are astronomically expensive. and deadly.

There are alternatives to nuclear power.

[Taft_Bathtub]

86. Thorium Reactors

Consume nuclear waste.

Disasters do happen, of course. I'd like to see a coal power plant withstand an 9.0 Earthquake and a Tsunami and not kill someone or release thousands of gallons of toxic and radioactive sludge.

Please tell me what power source can replace nuclear? Because right now it's Coal, that's it. You're not going to power the nation of Japan with rooftop solar and wind farms, sorry :(

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peace4ever]

131. Solar Thermal

doesn't require deadly and costly nuclear anything.

Disasters Happen. which is why we must move from these dirty, toxic, non renewable sources of energy ASAP.

Just as the internet has shown the power of distributed, and diverse computing power, especially in terms of scalability, so will green energy as there are more options than just solar.

We need a new Apollo program for green tech. and begin investing our dollars wisely for the future.

Thorium reactors are the latest in a series of 'free lunch' programs cooked up by the nuclear industry. Wake me when there is one up and running.

[Taft_Bathtub]

133. India's Kakrapar-1 is already running

Also here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle#List_of_thorium-fueled_reactors

And unlike Solar Thermal, Thorium works when it's overcast for more than a couple of days.

[liberation]

243. Kakrapar-1 is a test reactor nowhere near production or deployment

It is very disingenuous for you to claim that solar and wind, both being deployed and with a proven track record, are "not practical" or "unfeasible." While at the same time you provide very experimental and non-deployed technology, like Thorium, as a practical counter-example. It makes me think you have an agenda.

[liberation]

132. "You're not going to power the nation of Japan with rooftop solar and wind farms, sorry"

Of course not, there is also geothermal, tidal, etc.

There are plenty of clean alternatives, that could come on line and would cost similarly as a brand new nuclear plant with similar outputs. They are actually cheaper if we compare them against the overall cost of nuclear if we take into account the externalities (like the actual cost of this disaster) and the dollar amount involved in dealing with the nuclear waste. Aspects which are usually left out of the cost equation for dirty energy production systems, and it is not hard to see why.

[nonperson]

142. If the money wasted on nuclear had been spent on renewable energy

This would all be moot.

[defendandprotect]

143. Anything is cheaper than destruction of the Pacific Ocean and 1/3rd of Japan -- !!

Not to mention BP and its destruction of the Gulf -- !!!

Lucky us -- corporations helping us with energy!!


:)

[AtheistCrusader]

271. The entire Fukushima Dai-ichi plant could be lost to the depths of the sea

all of it. stored fuel. Reactors. The entire buildings. The total damage to the ocean would be negligible. We've thrown WAY more radioactive material and entire running reactors into the oceans before. Negligble damage. Very localized.

[defendandprotect]

138. Unless we are 100% suicidal and want to junk the planet, we will depart from nuclear --!!

[a simple pattern]

127. +24,100

[defendandprotect]

57. Answer is to vote for humanity and the planet and close it all down ...

on average, it takes six months to shut down our nuclear reactors here in states --

evidently something about the design of these in Japan indicates it may take as much

as a year --

on an earthquake-prone island!!


As the woman from the Bikini Islands said after we nuked her homeland in testing

atomic weapons --

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things" -- !!

[abelenkpe]

134. Wish we would join them :) nt

[mountainlion55]

7. WTF

And Obama wants 36 billion in subsidies for the nuke industry!!!:nuke:

[AndyTiedye]

8. We're Totally Fuku'ed!

k/r :nuke:

[pmorlan1]

10. Truth leaking out

Looks like the truth leaked out much slower than the radioactive fuel did.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

15. FBag doesn't have enough fingers for this dyke

[grahamhgreen]

16. No New Nukes in Georgia, Mr. President!

Give us the 6 billion for windmills, instead.

[liberation]

28. He can't hear you...

... the cash from the nuke lobby makes too much noise. You may have to speak up.

[Auntie Bush]

93. Don't want any old nukes in VT either. Close the damn place down!

[Bennyboy]

17. Check out these photos of Fukushima taken Tuesday...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xtcbz/5705985390/in/set-72157626687253144/

[bananas]

18. Wow! nt

[Safetykitten]

19. OMG. Was that tank twisted? Also still plenty of smoke/steam.

[barbtries]

30. amazing.

so much destruction. they should consider using the place as the backdrop for an apocalyptic movie. if it isn't "hot" that is.

[Taft_Bathtub]

97. It's almost like it got hit by a Tsunami/Earthquake!

Oh wait it did.

[barbtries]

24. this is not really news right

they didn't just find this out did they.

now to learn what does this mean, for the people there, in Tokyo, throughout the rest of the world. damn.

[Robbien]

31. Tepco probably knew when the reactor blew back on day three or four

but this is the first time they publicly acknowledged the complete meltdown.

So yes it is news to the general public

What it means for the Japanese people is that they once again find their 'powers that be' have been blowing smoke up their butts.

[defendandprotect]

63. PRIVATE corporations will act in their own interests -- not for humanity/planet -- !!

[Raschel]

65. What DOES this mean, for Japan, for the world? And why was last week the first time they decided to

take a little lookie-loo?

[AtheistCrusader]

67. They couldn't get in there due to the radiation.

At the moment, what this means is probably permanent entombment of the reactor core in this reactor. No cleanup, decommission process like Three Mile Island.

[barbtries]

73. what i think?

because they care more about money than people, and they know this disaster could break them. they've been letting out the bad news in doses it seems to me but i don't buy that they have not known what a total catastrophe it is from the get. so it's greed, can only be greed.

i feel so badly for the people stuck there. heaven only knows (well maybe TEPCO has a pretty good idea) what the future holds for them.

[defendandprotect]

156. They couldn't be hiding this w/o complicity of Japanese government -- and maybe US?

[Raschel]

75. To clarify, what does this mean as far as radiation effects, for us and Japan?

BTW totally agree about Tepco. I have said from the beginning that they always use "could be" or similar language, and then they would give us more damaging information later.

They've always given us our info in Tepco doses.

[Robbien]

87. That means that serious radiation has been leaking into Japan's ground water

By serious radiation I mean cesium, the stuff that doesn't degrade easily, usually taking decades.

Greenpeace has been 12 miles out off the coast of Japan and has found highly excessive levels of this type of radiation in the seaweed.

I expect that drinking water of all of Japan has been contaminated.

Japan will have a high rate of cancers and birth defects for decades. Since of course it will take a while (a few years) for the effects to start to show, the government can right now get away with saying everything is fine don't worry.

For us, we will also consume some of this radiation. How much is anyone's guess. And it will have to be a guess because our governmental agencies are turning a blind eye.

[Raschel]

117. Thank you Robbien.

[liberation]

130. Fukushima is right next to the ocean, how did it manage to get to the ground water exactly?

?

[defendandprotect]

157. TONS of radiated water has been dumped into Pacific Ocean ---

Radiation has spread across to the US which will also contaminate our water

and soil --

And every time it rains, it will all be re-delivered to us all again and again and

again -- !!

[Avant Guardian]

26. Before all this there was a 'nukes aren't dangerous' faction here on DU

Haven't heard a word from them since the tsumani. Where did they go?

[liberation]

32. Are you kidding?

There were plenty of peeps in DU during and after the tsunami parroting all sorts of pro-nuke talking points.

I am sure there will be a few here who will make it sure we understand that there is little difference, danger-wise, between a reactor melting down and a banana truck tipping over on the highway.

[defendandprotect]

59. Remember Obama is pushing nuclear reactors in US!!

"Don't worry, be happy, go nukes!" --

The pro-nukes have been here and will be back, but they aren't in control of our country --

people like Obama are --

Remember Obama's words just before the BP disaster in the Gulf --

"Rigs these days don't leak" -- ???? Yikes!!

And Obama has arranged for huge loan guarantees/subsidies for the nuclear industry

and a new generation of nuclear plants here in US --

The insanity that provides for things like BP and drilling in our oceans -- and

nuclear power plants is what must be addressed by us overall -- !!

From the highest perspectives --



:nuke:

[defendandprotect]

61. They're still here -- and so is Obama -- !!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4848633&mesg_id=4848938

[Taft_Bathtub]

72. Most of them got sick of deal with the eyerollingly bad nuke hysteria

I don't blame them. America really needs better science education in public schools, some of the crap people say about Nuclear Energy is embarrassing.

[defendandprotect]

144. America needs renewable energy which doesn't sicken the population ---

and doesn't create waste that makes everyone ill --

:eyes:

[Avant Guardian]

274. Right

I am sure there are many Japanese who agree with you

[Raschel]

74. I dunno. But there were people on here who didn't even want us discussing it!

[barbtries]

76. there's one on this thread

keep reading.

[chervilant]

119. hmm...

I've had the same experience, Avant Guardian. For a few weeks after the tsunami, the pro-nuke activists were vehemently defending nuclear power, especially the NEW, and IMPROVED, and SEXY thorium reactors--but, where are they now?

**crickets...**

[Avant Guardian]

275. Perhaps they volunteered to help stabilize the reactors in Japan

Hope they remembered to have bone marrow taken first. That way they could survive the inevitable leukemia they would contract.

[harun]

238. We are still here. Certainly rethinking a nuclear approach now.

With current rules, regulations and the business model for Nuke plants my stance has changed. Not unless they reformed all of it would I support them the same way. I still feel other energy models are more dangerous, oil and coal. We aren't in Iraq and Lybia to get more uranium. Far more people experience a negative health impact from coal than from Nuclear.

Problem I see with nuclear power is we simply have no control over what the nuclear operators do. One can envision a massive disaster coupled with say an outbreak of disease. What do we do if the operators simply decide to go home or leave. We are totally screwed. At this point in time governments simply are not able to take on what would be required to make them safe, secure and accountable.

So we are not quiet, just trying to think of a better way to do things.

[Avant Guardian]

276. There are simple safer alternatives

Put solar panels on every roof in the country. No more need for coal OR nukes.

Nukes threaten life on earth.

[harun]

286. Works for me. They can use as much of my tax dollars on that as they wish.

[Zorra]

239. Dunno. Maybe to Spin and Marketing to

get the latest developments on applying the newest damage control policies?

Or possibly, they are studying Nuclear Physics at the Internet School of Nuclear Scientology and Research so they can get the latest expert opinions on how and why nuclear power is completely safe.

And... :D btw, anonymous sources have confirmed that a new product, called "NukeAway" has been developed that makes nuclear waste instantly disappear without a trace, and will be available in the near future.

[Avant Guardian]

277. They can take this knowlege and.....

...preach it around Japan. I am sure they would get a welcoming reception.

[joeglow3]

27. In other news, the moon only reflects light from the sun...

...Oops. Well I guess some people may not have figured that out yet, so maybe this is news for some people.

[Hannah Bell]

58. here's what they actually said:

Tokyo Electric says temperatures at the bottom of the reactor are between 100 and 120 degrees Celsius, suggesting that the fuel has fallen and is being cooled in the water below.

The utility says it does not believe the fuel has completely melted and spilled through the bottom of the reactor. It adds that instead, the fuel appears to be being cooled inside the reactor.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/12_23.html


the telegraph article doesn't even make sense:

Engineers from the Tokyo Electric Power company (Tepco) entered the No.1 reactor at the end of last week for the first time and saw the top five feet or so of the core's 13ft-long fuel rods had been exposed to the air and melted down.

Previously, Tepco believed that the core of the reactor was submerged in enough water to keep it stable and that only 55 per cent of the core had been damaged.


5 feet out of 13 feet = 39%.

so previously, they believed that only 55% of the core had been damaged, but now they think 39% has been?

wtf?

also, if they previously believed 55% of the core had been damaged, that = a "meltdown." because any melting of the fuel rods/core damage = a meltdown.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define:nuclear+meltdown&defl=en&sa=X&ei=YiXMTdGkJoP2tgOJ8MXJBg&ved=0CAUQowMoAQ

and both tepco & the japanese government have discussed melt of the fuel rods & damage to the core before.

this article is just misleading crap. it does not inform people, it just adds to their confusion.

but it makes it to the front page.

[defendandprotect]

62. This is another reason why we can't have PRIVATE industry in charge of

anything this dangerous and controversial -- !!

They're going to try to save their asses -- protect profits -- and run PR!!

Not that our government is much different these days being so heavily corporatized!!

[Hannah Bell]

68. you're saying the nhk article is spin & the telegraph is giving you the straight story?

[defendandprotect]

160. I'm saying common sense makes clear that nuclear is suicidal ---

[CreekDog]

139. Only 55% melted down

:rofl:

'tis just a flesh wound.

:wtf:

[bananas]

230. Context: "end of last week" vs "Previously" vs "Now" and "Thursday morning"

The OP mentions "the end of last week" and "Previously" and "Now" as context:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8509502/Nuclear-meltdown-at-Fukushima-plant.html

<snip>

Engineers from the Tokyo Electric Power company (Tepco) entered the No.1 reactor at the end of last week for the first time and saw the top five feet or so of the core's 13ft-long fuel rods had been exposed to the air and melted down.

Previously, Tepco believed that the core of the reactor was submerged in enough water to keep it stable and that only 55 per cent of the core had been damaged.

Now the company is worried that the molten pool of radioactive fuel may have burned a hole through the bottom of the containment vessel, causing water to leak.

<snip>

Your link says "Thursday morning":

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/12_23.html

On Thursday morning, it was found that the water level was more than one meter below the bottom of the fuel rods

[nilram]

60. suPRISE, suPRISE, suPRISE!!!

This is so screwed up, in so many ways. And it is a fucking big deal.

[trud]

77. once again, old news

MIT's Lab for Nuclear Science reported this weeks ago.

[chervilant]

122. Really, trud?

All the more justification for this thread, then, since the M$M has seen fit--as has TEPCO--to avoid thorough and HONEST coverage of this disaster.

(BTW, immediately after the tsunami, most of us anti-nuke activists were asserting that meltdown(s) were inevitable. In short, it didn't take a rocket scientist to understand what was coming down the pike...)

[Javaman]

88. Oh man... :(

we are our own worst enemy.

Those poor people.

[golfguru]

111. Death score card: Tsunami:20,000, Fukushima:??

[Corruption Winz]

118. As mentioned in another post..

the math doesn't add up. 5 feet of 13 is not 55%. At all.

Regardless, everyone knew this was bad. This story doesn't really help sort things out, however.

[chervilant]

124. Well,

it DOES point to the fact that TEPCO and the M$M have obfuscated and lied by omission for much of the time since the reactors' coolant systems AND back-up systems went inoperable.

From MIT's Technology Review, published online May 9, 2011:

The Fukushima reactor was struck by a magnitude 9 earthquake at 14:46 local time on 11 March. The three operating reactors there were immediately shut down.

About an hour later, however, the facility was struck by a tsunami with waves up to 5 meters in height. This destroyed the reactors' electric cooling ability and the reactors began to heat up. The reaction between water vapour and the nuclear fuels' zirconium cladding generated hydrogen which exploded in reactors 1, 3 and 4.

The question on many people's minds is whether the hot nuclear fuel then melted allowing a critical mass of molten fuel to form, allowing chain reactions to restart.

Today, Tetsuo Matsui at the University of Tokyo, says the limited data from Fukushima indicates that nuclear chain reactions must have reignited at Fuksuhima up to 12 days after the accident.

[CoffeeCat]

128. ...and this is why the information from TEPCO...and from...

...other industry shills--is confusing and obtuse. When you lie about something so complex
and important--you get tripped up and your words contradict basic science (and even common sense).

When you tell the truth and you want to inform people--the articles are concise, helpful and
full of useful information that doesn't contradict what you said yesterday or last week.

They're not trying to inform us or be helpful. They're covering their asses and lying like dogs.

The fallout from that is that people half way around the world at MIT see through your bullshit
and can refute the propaganda.

[Sirveri]

135. TEPCO isn't the only one making money here. Doom and gloom sells news

It sells it VERY well. Doesn't even have to be accurate. Just plaster, Radiation found in drinking water on the front page, it will get hits, and then those companies make money. So if we're talking profit motive, then we can't really trust anyone.

[defendandprotect]

145. So there's no such thing as truth, you say? Only, perhaps, truth that some don't like?

Of course the public is interested in what's happen in Japan --

Why wouldn't we all be -- we're all "Down Wind'ers" --

It's the Pacific Ocean -- !!

Should we have not all been interested in the BP disaster and destruction of Gulf?

Concentrating on a few bucks made in "news" while so much else is lost is inane.

What's the Pacific worth? What's the Gulf worth? What's the planet worth?

[Sirveri]

245. No what is inane is doomer BS and media hype.

I'm not worried about fallout from fukushima because I have a better chance of getting hit by lightning than I do to get cancer from it (and I live on the west coast). There isn't any need to start taking KI, stockpile dehydrated milk, or any other nonsense. When it's reported as 'over the legal limit', without any explanation of why that limit exists and what it does, then it's nothing more than scare mongering. one day at 25% over limit is effectively nothing since the legal limit for drinking water is if you drank at the limit for a year, and then you'd only pull 4mrem, which statistically also won't do anything, even if you drank it for your entire lifetime.

Hanah Bell already smashed this story apart with basic logic. As Bell has done in the past when the other news agencies have mis-quoted, mis-interpreted, or otherwise screwed up the original source that they quoted from. Of course you know this since you replied to their direct refute of the post.

[Harmony Blue]

166. Given that the coverage of Japan

has dropped off rapidly lately, I am not sure I agree. Furthermore, given that they are holding back information, I would advise people to read, and listen to the news on a daily basis, as the events are unfolding dynamically.

[readmoreoften]

231. The media has plenty to report on to make $, TEPCO can only gain from disinformation.

Your post reminds me of my students who argued that global warming is just a fiction created for green capital. As if the forces of brown capital/big oil aren't exponentially more powerful than green capital. Who stands to gain the most? TEPCO. Beyond that, it doesn't make much sense that this situation would stabilize since it is unprecedented.

[chervilant]

237. Yes,

Facing what I can only presume was a similar scenario with my students, I encouraged them to watch a TeacherTube video called "Did you Know" by Karl Fisch. After we acknowledged that the video was out of date already (less than a year after it was put online), we discussed at length the concept 'exponential times.' My students concluded that it's difficult to assess current events, because change is so incredibly rapid. We did touch on how differently 'tv' generations process information, compared to our forebears who grew up without television. This was obviously something few of my students had considered.

Our species now processes information in "7 second sound bites" and our attention moves exponentially from one topic to the next ("Oh, look, it's a sparkly!"). At this point, most US citizens seem unaware of the dangers posed by Fukushima. I wonder if they'd care, given that the disaster is 'NIMBY' and Japan is 'oh-so-far-away.'

[xchrom]

121. Interesting. Nt

[grahamhgreen]

167. The DOE says wind is cheaper. There is no longer a rational reason to build nukes. (chart)

[Avant Guardian]

278. Mandate solar panels on all rooftops by 2025

No more need for nukes or coal power. No pollution either.

[Hissyspit]

169. Fukushima Reactor Has a Hole, Leading to Leakage ("Disaster Worse Than Previously Disclosed")

Source: Reuters

Fukushima reactor has a hole, leading to leakage
By Yoko Kubota and Scott DiSavino
TOKYO/NEW YORK | Thu May 12, 2011 5:47pm EDT

By Yoko Kubota and Scott DiSavino

TOKYO/NEW YORK (Reuters) - One of the reactors at Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear power plant has a hole in its main vessel following a meltdown of fuel rods, leading to a leakage of radioactive water, its operator said on Thursday.

The disclosure by Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) is the latest indication that the disaster was worse than previously disclosed, making it more difficult to stabilize the plant.

- snip -

Workers at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant have been pumping water into at least three of the six reactors on the site to bring their nuclear fuel rods to a "cold shutdown" state by January.

But after repairing a gauge in the No. 1 reactor earlier this week, TEPCO discovered that the water level in the pressure vessel that contains its uranium fuel rods had dropped about 5 meters (16 ft) below the targeted level to cover the fuel under normal operating conditions. "There must be a large leak," Junichi Matsumoto, a general manager at the utility told a news conference.

Read more: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE74B1H520110512?irpc=932

[AndyTiedye]

170. Fuku'ed and Recommended!

[jpak]

171. "There must be a large leak"

the end

yup

[Lasher]

195. That comment does not evoke confidence in Matsumoto or his peers.

[The Backlash Cometh]

172. Why did the world allow them to put those nuclear plants on

a known fault line?

Some decisions seem to ensure the destruction of the human race. If we don't have smart people around willing to offset those stupid decisions, we are doomed.

[lob1]

174. We have 2 nuclear plants on fault lines in California,

and another on a fault in New York. That's 3 that I know of in this country. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[The Backlash Cometh]

175. It's time to rectify this stupidity. Before it corrects itself.

[lob1]

176. I couldn't agree more. But,

on the bright side, soon we can use a glass of milk as a night light. Look at all the money we'll save.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

202. Humans will be extinct soon

[boppers]

207. A map for you:

[Tesha]

178. Privatize Profits, Socialize Costs.

"The World" is never allowed much say in these
sorts of things. We're just placed in harm's
so "they" can make their profits.

Tesha

[Atypical Liberal]

196. Bingo.

This is the best way to put it. These kinds of ventures profit a very few but the costs are spread amongst us all.

[subterranean]

215. They weren't on a fault line.

Besides, the plants came out of the quake in relatively good shape. It was the tsunami that did them in. They shouldn't have been built next to the ocean in a known tsunami zone, with all their backup generators in the basement.

There is another nuclear plant southwest of Tokyo that IS built on a fault line, and the government has decided to shut that one down.

[ixion]

173. x-post: "we have harnessed the power of the sun..."

"It is totally out of control. And there's simply nothing we can do about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1090499

[IScreamSundays]

177. This has been the story since the beginning...

you think that guy from Tepco was crying at the news conference for no reason. You think the state took over all release of news from the plant for no reason. Japan is done. The third largest economy in the world, the reverberations will be felt around the world. It is a disaster of biblical proportions yet no one talks about it.

[dixiegrrrrl]

179. Because people might panic!!!!! if they were told the truth.....

God, I hate the patronization of that meme.

[snagglepuss]

186. I wonder what mass panic as they imagine it would look like.

[chervilant]

182. SOME

people are talking about it, and have been since the beginning! We've endured scatalogical insults about our intellects and our politics, particularly from pro-nuke activists opposed to our anti-nuke sensibilities.

This IS a disaster, with outcomes we've yet to imagine. Perhaps our species has fouled our 'nest' beyond the point of no return, and Gaia will now roll over and scrape us off Her backside.

[Demeter]

187. I'm beginning to think that's the good scenario.

but it's been a really bad spring for me....

[Demeter]

180. No One Could Have Possibly Predicted

Except every scientist from Einstein on, and all the speculative fiction writers... and anyone with even a smattering of science education...

[chervilant]

183. And,

a boatload of anti-nuke activists who've been ON THE BALL, and done their research over the past few decades (for me, since the early 70s).

[Zorra]

181. DU must have collective ESP. How did so many of us here know

this almost from the beginning?

Yes, this is a rhetorical question.

[defendandprotect]

191. Third graders would know -- why not us?

[Devil_Fish]

208. It doesn't take much critical thinking to know what happens when you loose cooling water.

Have you ever had the water pump bearing on you car give out? I Did. The heat gage went straight up to hot. I was smart. I pulled over immediately. I had some jugs of water and I pulled over every 10 or 15 minuets to top off the radiator. If I had not had that back up system and kept running it, I would have lost the engine. Too bad it's not as easy to stop a nuke as turning off the ignition.

Any one who has studied Nukes at all even in High School knows that if you loose cooling, your done. Why it took TEPCO so long to admit this I have no idea. all this crap about "they might be exposed to the air" or "it's a partial melt down" WTF you Fucking ass holes. Spraying water on it from fire trucks? ya, that will work....NOT. Dumping water from helocopters that vaporises before it hits the top of the building? ya, that will work.....NOT. How was all that water supposed to get into a suposidly sealed containment vessel? How stupid do they think we are?

:puke:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

184. I got news for ya;ll ...all 6 of them are melting down and they can't tell anyone because....

all of Japan would cease to exist and where do they put the entire population of Japan, in what country?

this is why they are so slow about releaseing the data

[Demeter]

185. Oh, Japan will still be there, glowing faintly

The Japanese, however, will be exiles or dead.

[Poll_Blind]

189. Ya, I'm kind of the same mind on that. I just think it's "only" 3-4 of them in meltdown.

"Only" 4 meltdowns!

That's the richest gallows humor yet!

PB

[defendandprotect]

192. ... and spewing radiation reaching ALL of us -- and melting down into Pacific which everyone on

the planet has an interest in!!

[Atypical Liberal]

197. Isn't this a bit fear-mongering?

Serious question here.

We dropped two ATOMIC BOMBS on Japan and it is still here. Surely this reactor problem can't make Japan cease to exist?

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

199. This is much worse on the long-term scale than the WWII Nukes

[AtheistCrusader]

210. What about all the naval reactors, plutonium torpedoes, and warheads lost at sea by

the US and Russia.

8 fully operational reactors, at least 2 atomic torpedoes, and probably over 100 soviet warheads, plunk, into the oceans. Lost to crushing depths, gone for good.

Is fukushima worse, or less than all that shit, plus tens to hundreds of thousands of tons of nuclear waste around the globe, dumped into the oceans.

[nebenaube]

205. Still don't comprehend the difference between a flash and a beam eh? n/t

[plumbob]

211. See, the atomic bombs stopped after a bit.

These plants emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit and emit...well, you get the idea.

Or think of it this way - two cuts on your body with a fairly large knife. Or a cut per second with a sharp razor blade for months on your same body. 76,000 cuts per day = about 2 and a quarter million cuts a month time a year = about 30 million cuts.

It's the constantness of it all.

[AtheistCrusader]

273. Tepco is trying to stop that cutting.

You see, the release of radioactive particles is the cut. The bombs did the same. Stop the emission of radioactive material, stop the 'bomb' of Fukushima.

Both would then only have fallout half-life of the materials released to deal with, of which, the reactors have probably released much more.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

198. my wife and I thought about this

We came to the conclusion that Michigan would be a good candidate.

Great Lakes are like the Ocean.
Both places get cold.
Big Fishing and Auto Industry.

[Downwinder]

203. Gives us a time frame to work with.

In Edgar Cayce's view, when California fell into the ocean, Japan had ceased to exist.

[Prometheus Bound]

188. Let's be honest. They lied!

[defendandprotect]

193. The governments are probably also hiding the truth -- didn't US have "advisors" there?

[tavalon]

204. My dosimeter says yes, they're lying to us

My dosimeter says I've already had a years worth of "safe" radiation.

[defendandprotect]

190. PRIVATE companies and fossil fuels/atomic reactors -- have be outted from energy -- !!!

[Exultant Democracy]

194. I was afraid of this, but I was hoping that it wasn't so for Japans sake.

[tavalon]

200. Great, if they're admitting this much,

just how fucking bad is it. I'm guessing it's very, very much worse. Science fiction come alive bad.

[Harmony Blue]

209. Worse than Chernobyl for sure

And, based on the little information we have to work with, I don't think it is hyperbole to suggest it so.

There are multiple problems to contend with that Chernobyl doesn't even being to approach. Contamination of the water supply of Japan given its geological features. Contamination of shallow water areas off the coast of Japan. Best case scenario about 1/3 of Japan becomes uninhabitable, and the worst case scenario is that Japan as a nation is done for our life times, but may come back again for the next generation.

Many have asked how is this different than the dropping of the Atom bombs during WWII? Both explosions were quick events, so if you were not exposed to fallout within 24 hours in a certain proximity to the blast, and were a safe distance away, radiation dosage would be very low, or none at all.

Why? The WWII Atomic Bombs contain a small amount of nuclear material compared to a Nuclear core power plant.

[FourScore]

201. No shit Sherlock! n/t

[craigmatic]

206. I'm not surprised. And here I thought republicans were incompetent liars.

They have nothing on the Japanese government.

[Overseas]

212. K&R. No more nuclear power please!

How on earth we're not pouring billions into solar instead, I am just so disheartened by that.

[StarsInHerHair]

213. worse than previously disclosed

& we'll continue down this route, I fear, because of too much idiotic 'optimism'. Their total lack of plans for WHEN this would happen..........boggles my mind.

[grahamhgreen]

214. The DOE says wind is cheaper. There is no longer a rational reason to build nukes. (chart)

[villager]

216. Kan orders slaughter of all livestock in 20-km hot zone

Source: Japan Times

Kan orders slaughter of all livestock in 20-km hot zone

By MASAMI ITO

Prime Minister Naoto Kan on Thursday told Fukushima Gov. Yuhei Sato to slaughter all farm animals within a 20-km radius of the stricken Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant.

The government's decision last month to formally declare the 20-km evacuation zone around the plant off-limits has been preventing farmers from feeding their livestock, leaving them to starve.

According to the farm ministry, there were an estimated 3,500 cows, 30,000 pigs, 675,000 chickens and 100 horses in the hot zone before the March 11 disasters threw the power plant into chaos. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said the irradiated farm animals will be killed only if the owners give consent.

The animals "will weaken and starve to death, and leaving them in such a situation is also hard on the owners who bred them," Edano said. The government's decision "may meet with a lot of criticism but we decided to take responsibility and signal a policy instead of forcing this difficult decision onto the owners," he said.

Edano said the owners will be compensated financially by Tokyo Electric Power Co., manager of the crippled nuclear complex. "Naturally, animals that were put to sleep because of the government's instruction will require that compensation be made," Edano said. "We are very sorry that the owners will suffer even with the financial compensation, but we are hopeful that Tepco will compensate them promptly."

If an owner refuses to provide consent, however, the government cannot put the animals to sleep.

<snip>

Read more: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110513a7.html

[Uncle Joe]

217. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, villager.

[hlthe2b]

218. This is so incredibly heart breaking..

I remember the Brits having to kill countless thousands of cattle and other livestock due to Foot and Mouth Disease. The sadness and depression of the dairy farmers, who had such a personal relationship with their animals was just wrenching. I suspect this will deal an almost insurmountable blow to those already facing such heart break and calamity.

I am SO saddened for the people affected. I am likewise very saddened about the many many domestic and wildlife animals that will be destroyed.

[sasha031]

219. thank you for your compassionate post

every time I read of the tragedy in Japan I cry...

the suffering is endless.

[Kdillard]

221. Very well stated.

[Javaman]

220. I think we are witnessing an epic event. nt

[Robbien]

222. It just keeps getting worse. Greenpeace has found serious contamination in Japan's seaweed

Initial findings from our radiation sampling team working on the coast near Fukushima are in and the news is not good. The results showed levels of contamination far beyond allowed limits for seaweed.

Contaminated seaweed could become a threat as fishermen along the coast will begin harvesting the seaweed to sell for public consumption in the coming weeks. As both TEPCO’s sediment samples and our own preliminary research shows, radioactive contamination is accumulating in the marine ecosystem that provides Japan with a quarter of its seafood, yet the authorities are still doing the very little to protect public health. We are calling on the authorities to start comprehensive radiation testing of seaweed along the Fukushima coast.

We are also now conducting detailed analysis of fish, seawater, and seaweed collected outside of Japan’s 12 mile territorial waters, as well as fish, shellfish and seaweed samples collected from the Fukushima coast. Selections of samples have been sent to independent
laboratories for further analysis.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/seaweed-contamination-cause-for-concern-in-ja/blog/34733


They are killing farm animals due to contamination in air and feed vegetation. Since seaweed is seriously contaminated, it goes to say sea life is likely unfit to eat.

But shhhh, don't tell anyone.

[bread_and_roses]

223. Wasn't the evacuation zone declared almost three weeks ago?

What's been happening to those animals in the meantime?

[dixiegrrrrl]

224. Animals are wandering around, mostly, those that could wander.

The dogs looked like they have been eating, in the videos I have seen.
Dogs pack up and can hunt, but of course they are eating radiated sources, the cows are eating radiated grass, etc.
So a long slow death awaits the animals, one way or the other.
No one has mentioned the wild birds, tho.
Flying irradiated birds....now there's an image.

[jwirr]

225. You know there is a good question here. Why did they not get these

animals out of this area right away in the same evacuation as the people. There are other agricultural areas they could have been taken to. They are a total lose now whereas they could have been salvaged.

[on point]

226. They would have been a total loss even if moved.

And would create a market contamination problem for those in the new area. By that I mean no one would buy a food animal from an area where the radiated ones were taken to for fear the others got mixed in some how. So now both areas would be a total economic loss.

It is different for animals people are bonded to and not intended for food. For instance horses, dogs and the like.

[jwirr]

227. Okay, that I understand. I was assuming that the animals had not

been contaminated that early. And yes, the pets should have been taken out earlier.

[readmoreoften]

233. Because it was a goddamned tsunami. Hell, they didn't get all the people out.

[cambie]

228. As it was at Chernobyl

where hunters were sent to kill all the dogs. Those radioactive dogs would made contact with the workers. The dogs near Fukushima will have to go as well.

[Prometheus Bound]

229. The amount of cesium and iodine flowing into the Pacific is truly frightening.

More radioactive water leaks into sea near stricken plant
2011/5/13

<snip> Checks on seawater outside a silt fence installed by TEPCO last month at an intake of the No. 3 reactor to stop contamination from spreading out to sea found 96 becquerels of iodine-131 per cubic centimeter, 2,400 times above safety standards, according to the utility. The silt fence is a plastic curtain hanging from floats and reaching near the sea bottom.

Inside the pit, the iodine-131 level was 3,400 becquerels per cubic centimeter, 85,000 times the permissible level.

Cesium-134 was measured at 37,000 becquerels per cubic centimeter, 620,000 times the safety limit.
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201105120188.html

[JohnyCanuck]

235. Fuck nuclear power. Fuck it in hell. That is where it came from. Let it go back there. n/t

[mountainlion55]

240. Thank you for the post

I live about sixty miles south of the Diablo Canyon nuke plant. So this nuke power shite is practically on my doorstep. Diablo Canyon. Even the name sounds unsafe.
Kurt Vonneget in his book-- Man Without a Country--. States in one chapter that he feels humans as a species is a miserable failure! Fuck the earth its all about money. We have been shitting heavily in our own nest for about 150yrs. But don't fuck with the god profit our holy father.
Wind and Solar are the only two viable sources of energy that are currently feasible. Start a massive Solar&wind project using BLM lands in AZ and NEV and the problem could be helped greatly. :smoke:

[Aerows]

241. But wait...all the pro-nuke folks said this didn't happen

...even though all of us pretty much knew it was going to happen and said as much.

They were keen to ridicule such things as "paranoia". Where are they now? Come on, you guys, I could name names, but I have no doubts that they will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possible.

Props if they have the guts to come in here and say "Okay, yeah, I was wrong." I'm willing to bet, however, that they move the goalposts on this one if they do have the nerve to come in here.

EDIT: Out of 251 posts - not a ONE of them had the guts to come in here.

You know who you are, and you FAIL. It wasn't as though we hadn't figured out who the PR people were, however, in that thread.

[nc4bo]

244. They're around...

In this thread, no worries. Don't want another post deleted so I'll just hush my pie hole.

[chervilant]

281. Wow.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's had this experience. One pro-nuke DUer became so hostile and bizarre, I had to add him to my ignore list. I suspect he's been posting herein rather late, but I can't see the posts. I only see 'ignored.'

[nadinbrzezinski]

246. Nuclear Fuel Meltdown at Fukushima Daiichi Confirmed

Source: Environmental News Service

TOKYO, Japan, May 13, 2011 (ENS) - Tokyo Electric Power Company, operator of the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, revealed Thursday that nuclear fuel at one of the reactors is in a state of "meltdown."

TEPCO officials said that most of the fuel rods in the Unit 1 reactor have melted and fallen to the bottom of the reactor. They said cooling water in this reactor has fallen to a level that would expose those fuel rods that are still intact.

Holes have been created by melted nuclear fuel in piping at the bottom of the reactor's pressure vessel, allowing tons of water the company has been spraying into the reactor to cool the fuel to escape.

Read more: http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2011/2011-05-13-01.html

---

You'd think our media would bother... but this is the kind of nooz our corporate masters really cannot have out there in the wild, as in BREAKING NOOZ on MSNBC and the rest.

[Ichingcarpenter]

247. China Syndrome type level?

Yikes.....

BTW I know the china syndrome is inaccurate but crap
this seems like its above a level 7 now.

[fascisthunter]

250. What would make this a level 8?

because you brought this up. I too am wondering if this would be considered a level 8 emergency.

[Ichingcarpenter]

253. Depends on the amount of radiation it releases now

But a full meltdown like this will increase the radiation mathematically.

The plant was already at a 7 and that's as high as the rating goes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Nuclear_Event_Scale

I wonder what the temperature is right now?

it could go as high as 5000 degrees in the most serious case.

[fascisthunter]

256. anyone thinking this won't have global consequences

is slow, or compromised.

[nadinbrzezinski]

258. Like Chernobyl,distance is your friend

That said there is still cesium going round and round and round the globe from THAT!

[fascisthunter]

259. exactly.... and it will effect trade, policies, the environment, people, etc

I like what someone else said, "The only nuclear reactor we need is the one in the sky"

[nadinbrzezinski]

261. On the bright side... globalization

will come to a halt best case.. I mean when things are glowing (not really but humans are weird that way... and they won't buy Japanese goods due to that glowy problem)...

So they will have to figure out how to.

It also exposed major weaknesses in the just in time system. Like a reactor when it works... it purrs... but when you have a major incident... plants across the pacific have slowed down due to lack of parts.

[fascisthunter]

264. you raise an interesting point there

I think as time goes on globalization will be halted... too many times do we read, hear and see goods(foods) being shipped across the world when products should be produced or grown locally. It's a waste and it only benefits those who are greedy to maximize profits. In today's age we need to be more efficient in what we do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

266. Peak oil will do it too.

the system RELIES on cheap energy.

[Ichingcarpenter]

260. Right now I really worry about Japan

and the friends I have there.

Yes it will be global and if the winds change
and blow west onto asia it will be even worse than blowing
to the US over the Pacific.

[fascisthunter]

262. oh man... I send you and your friends all the good vibes I can

[chervilant]

283. Or

delusional...

[AtheistCrusader]

255. At this point it is based upon total radiation release.

Which is currently nowhere near Chernobyl.

It's bad, by itself, but still well within the shadow of Chernobyl. Only dangerous factors OVER Chernobyl are proximity to population (Like Tokyo), water table contamination for such populous areas, and the fact multiple reactors are involved.

We're still money ahead on these reactors so far, for the fact they have full containments, even though they are leaking. Contrast that with Chernobyl, where the reactor was not only not shut down, but was running at many multiples of it's rated maxiumum power when it was blown open to the sky, and the core components were ejected, burning, into the sky.

[nadinbrzezinski]

252. What about L-7 PER REACTOR?

That be more appropriate

[Ichingcarpenter]

254. This is really bad news

with another reactor going to a level 7.

I think you will see a 50-75 kilometer zone soon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

257. And... in the bread basket of the country

no less.

Food independence... has gone up in a mass of Becquerels for Japan.

I knew it was that bad, really, when Neato Kan said NO MORE to nuclear power and ordered a top down review for energy independence.

The old adage goes again... watch what they do, not what they say...

[JuniperLea]

248. Gotta preserve the nuke biz at all costs...

Hair falling out, skin falling off, but nukes iz safe donchano. Gotta build those new reactors! Got all sorts of promises out to constiuents for those fine, fine and totally safe nuke jobs! Need that safe energy!

Ugh... I hear they are going to tent the whole thing too... no doubt so we can't get a good look.

[fascisthunter]

249. too many fat cats are invested in nuclear energy

and so, the corporate media being the constant commercial they are, can't afford to do the right thing. Business and profits are more important in this country of ours than our own family, friends, etc.

[damntexdem]

251. Don't worry: it can't possibly be a China Syndrome -- given Japan's global location.

America Syndrome perhaps?

[slackmaster]

265. Somewhere far off the coast of Argentina or Uruguay, to pursue a flight of fancy

http://www.antipodemap.com/

In reality the mass of molten crap will go down for some distance and spread out until it becomes effectively sub-critical.

[JVS]

284. Montevidean malaise.

[Stuart G]

263. k & r

[defendandprotect]

285. kr