Iraqi 'beaten to death' by US troops

[PfcHammer]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9282015%255E1702,00.html

Iraqi 'beaten to death' by US troops

April 14, 2004

AN Iraqi has died of his wounds after US troops beat him with truncheons because he refused to remove a picture of wanted Shiite Muslim leader Moqtada Sadr from his car, police said today.

The motorist was stopped late yesterday by US troops conducting search operations on a street in the centre of the central city of Kut, Lieutenant Mohamad Abdel Abbas said.

<snip>

US troops also detained from the same area five men wearing black pants and shirts, the usual attire of Sadr's Mehdi Army militiamen and followers.

<snip>

He said the man had died of wounds sustained in the beating.

A spokesman for the US-led coalition could not confirm the incident.

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. why do we support the troops again?

[Lithos]

8. Yes you support the troops

The troops are in an unenviable position. They are far from home, scared, angry and in a foreign land. Many are kids who probably haven't a clue as to why they are there.

You will get a few who will act out and who need to be punished accordingly. However, these are the actions of the few, not the majority. Remember too that this is happening because of Shrub's policies and he and his cronies are the ultimate cause of this happening.

[radwriter0555]

10. I don't support the troops. These are people with the ability to think for

themselves.

They are acting on their own free will.

They are not slaves, they're not technically brainwashed and they can get out of the military any time they want. They don't HAVE to shoot, kill, murder, maim and destroy for a pay check.

They CAN leave.

They CAN resist.

They CAN desist.

I DO NOT support the troops.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

18. You're welcome to your own opinion, but those troops are Americans...

...that have been ordered to Iraq to do the NeoCons' bidding.

They have NO choice in the matter. None. Zero. Nada.

If they refuse to carry out an order during combat they can be immediately shot by their superior.

I would be very curious to see if you could back up your big brave words if you were placed in the same situation as our troops.

By the way...you stated that the troops can "get out of the military any time they want". Care to share how they might get that done?

[Occulus]

20. sure

they could suck someone's d*ck, for example.

Couldn't they?

Sorry; that's crass, but isn't it also true? Or did I miss something?

[northzax]

22. nope, the 'don't ask' policy is subject to 'stop-loss'

they have been suspended to avoid just this problem. the wingers have no problem with gays messing up unit morale in wartime, only in peacetime.

[radwriter0555]

24. First of all I wouldn't PUT myself in the position to be a whore for big

oil and the PNAC because I am a free thinking person who wasn't raised on mcdonalds and trash network teevee and brainwashed into oblivian by public education.

Secondly they HAVE THE CHOICE TO NOT BE THERE. They are NOT slaves. They HAVE the choice to leave. They CANNOT BE FORCED to kill someone, they CAN choose conscientious objector status. If that means prison, so be it. It's better than MURDERING people.

It's called having the courage to do the right thing, the courage of your convictions. It takes more of a backbone to resist than to comply.

These people can walk out of that hellhole anytime they want, and get on a plane and leave. They aren't chained. They aren't imprisoned, they aren't shackled.

They CHOOSE to kill, murder and destroy.

I do NOT support the troops.

[makhno]

25. That's all fine and dandy

But who gave these animals the order to club the guy to death? Sounds like individual initiative. These same bastards are soon going to be walking the beat in an American city near you. Watch your back at the next peace march, lest it be broken by someone "just doing their job."

bm

[Sandpiper]

32. You may not have heard, but the Nuremburg trials

Forever put to rest the idea of "I was just following orders" as a defense to military attrocities or crimes against humanity.

[Just Me]

34. We can understand the pressure they are under, but choice is still,...

,...an option. How they choose to behave,...is still an option. No one said "free will" is easy,...it is both a gift and a burden. Personally, if I had chosen to serve my country and found myself being forced into such circumstances,...death would no longer matter to me. I would prefer to die than serve. I would try the "conscientious objector" route, first,...but would certainly doubt the outcome.

Bottom line, my life has no worth if I choose to kill an innocent person.

[Tripmann]

43. Comparison

We saw British troops fight hand to hand with Iraqis and using RUBBER bullets as a last resort. Now it's reported a man is beaten to death by US troops for displaying a photo on his car and refusing to take it off?

It's not often you hear an Irish person praise the British but US forces could learn some lessons in self control from them before they kill more innocents.

Closing down newspapers, targeting individuals for capture or death, killing a person for displaying a photo and refusing to remove it. Insicriminate slaughter. Democracy in action?

[saigon68]

13. Support this War Criminal--No Way

KRAZY KILLER KIMMITT enforcer for the Viceroy

His quote, " if you don't like watching women and children die, change the channel."

[Sequoia]

26. Just like Sheriden's quote: "The only good Indian is a dead Indian"

just change the noun. The miltary never changes they're the Calvary all over again with cowardly Custer leading the way. If you've read "Bury My Heart at Wonded Knee" then you realize the military is the same now as it was then...kill all the infidels, "nits make lice". The troops who say no really can't just walk out so easily. Where would they put them? And the way this officer is acting you can bet he just might shoot his own men and blame it on the terrorist. Custer was not above doing that to his own men either. I'm not calling this guy Custer, he might think it's a compliment. To this day a lot of tourist cry when they go to the Bighorn Battlefield. Get over it...Custer lost, "he didn't listen". Seems we're not listening now either.

[saigon68]

28. Krazy has a long line of Whack jobs to emulate

Lt Col. Custer would be one yes

[robertpaulsen]

36. Holy shit! Can I get a link to that quote?

That's even worse than the lieutenant yesterday who said he wanted to "level" the town of Fallujah. Morale is going down the tubes and sanity is going with it.

[Art_from_Ark]

44. Here you go

When asked about those civilian casualties, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, the flinty senior military spokesman, blamed it all on Al Jazeera and gave this great piece of advice: "Change the channel."

http://www.progressive.org/webex04/wx041304.html

[TheLastMohican]

42. That guy is a butcher

I can't even see his picture, those crazy bloodlust eyes. He is not the person I would like to meet any day in my life.

He ruined the pride of 200 years for the Marine Corps, now they are all tied by a blood feud as butchers of local population. No sane person unleashes A-130 Spectres on a city without knowing what kind of casualties it will bring.

[northzax]

23. 'the troops' are different from a few criminals

There are 130,000 soldiers in Iraq, a few of them are going to commit awful acts like this and (hopefully) be tried fairly and if convicted get to spend the rest of their lives breaking big rocks into little rocks in Kansas.

relying on the actions of a few to judge the whole is inane, kinda like me saying "I got mugged by a black guy last week, tell me why I support Affirmative Action?"

This is also a chance for us to show the difference between our system and that of Saddam Hussein. Both militaries (yes, even Iraq's old one, I suppose) have good, decent honorable people serving in them, our military will respond by applying justice to these 'soldiers.' the militia we are fighting have yet to show the ability to apply discipline to criminals in their ranks. What is more important than the unexcusable actions of a few is the reaction of the majority to those actions.

[salin]

30. There are several discussions we (as a public) fail to have

before committing troops to war.

Beyond the risks of death and physical injury there is the psychological toll taken on individuals asked to put their lives on the line when events turn so that there is constant, and perilous resistance, so that the threat to life becomes seemingly ever present. Sadly, incidents like these, are not completely surprising in the current conditions. Add to it being (intentionally - by our administration) understaffed, undertrained, underequipped. Add further a context where those stationed are preceived to be 'occupyiers.' Truamatic Stress Syndrom on a massive scale.

This is not to say there should be no accountability when such tragedies/attrocities occur. But it is to say that much of our public, and certainly our current leaders, take far too forgranted the conditions we send our troops into and the often psychologically damaging situations. We should always have public discourse... is this proposed action - so serious in its nature that the inevitable human costs are really worth it? Sometimes it is as if the public views war and its cost as a spectator sport or viewing a John Wayne movie. The gravity of what is being asked of the individuals is rarely taking as somberly as it should be taken.

The other conversation is ... as taboo as it is... the draft. Do we have the man (and woman) power to successfully undertake the mission. Will it compromise other Missions (in this current case... particularly Afghanistan where the Taliban has control of a significant area of the country, and where al qeada has regrouped and been operating for more than a year)? Will it compromise our ability to respond to other crises that might occur? And if not - IS THIS PROPOSED ACTION SO SERIOUS THAT WE WOULD BE WILLING TO REIMPLEMENT THE DRAFT TO MEET THE MISSION. In my mind, on a mission as big as the Iraq war - this question HAD to be asked... but never was. It would put to the public the real question of costs and commitment.

These conversations are only a few of those we, as a public, should have been having prior to the war resolution and prior to the invasion, and these questions don't even consider the many worthy questions on the other side of the costs equation per the toll on the Iraqis, on the region, on international stability, per setting the tone for aggressive action by other countries, etc.

All of that said - I hold those who sent these service folks on the line, and those in the public who supported this policy, accountable. I still support and pray for those who have been placed on the ground in this untenable situation. I believe, however, that those individuals that cross the line and commit atrocities should be held accountable for the incidents. And my soul weeps in hearing this story - another loss of life - and a likely round of retribution and counter retribution that will likely result in even more loss of life.

[Just Me]

35. Very thoughtful post,...unfortunately, those discussions are prohibited

by the present leadership. Frankly, those discussions are prohibited by the majority of our "representatives" who are entirely too vested, personally, in their positions. They no longer serve "the people". Now, they USE "the people" to their advantage. Don't get me wrong. There are certainly those who do personally invest themselves in their duty to serve their country which would be all those residing within. However, they are becoming the rare exception to a new "rule". Maybe, we need to clean out the whole freakin' lot of them,...and start anew.

[Zerex71]

31. Answer:

Because not one single one of them has done anything "hero-worthy" or deserving of support. I can't think of a time when there was a lesser need to support the troops. WWII was different; in this day and age, the military is filled with a hypermacho, übermilitaristic mindset, and it is not benevolent in the least. Yes, on the one hand, I feel sorry for the poor kids and a lot of the high-school dropout dopes (who, let's face it, have no other choice in society), but as for their actions...I'll turn my back on every last one of them. It is this guilt that the military will burden them with until the day they die - they know in their hearts it is wrong to kill, yet under the penalties of insubordination and sublimation of Self to Mission, they do it - and they will be rewarded with a lifetime of suffering for it.

[TolstoyAndy]

2. That's the New Freedom we've brought them

War is peace, etc.

[Whoa_Nelly]

3. Absolutely outrageous!

:mad:

[rooboy]

4. These things happen in a free country, right Rummy? n/t

[Barrett808]

6. "Freedom is messy" n/t

[jobycom]

5. IF true, they should face murder charges.

Excellent attempt to demonstrate the freedoms of expression we enjoy in this country, fellahs. Excellent. They will all love us very soon, I'm sure. Your fellow soldiers thank you, also, for lowering the hatred they feel for us at the moment. Way to go.

IF true.

[bushisanidiot]

7. "Freedom Isn't Free" Apparently, it's "Conform or Die" style democracy

over there now..

gee, do you think they hate us yet?

do you think they'll try to retaliate??

hmmm.. let's ask president SHITFERBRAINS!!!

[xultar]

9. We have to support the troops, we can't start this mess, HOWEVER

we shouldn't condone there actions. That is the difference.

The ones who beat that guy are the rare minority in our military.

We also however, have to understand the troops.
1. they don't get much training,
2. they know they are over there dying and killing for a LIE
3. the national guard troops aren't even supposed to be over there
4. they just got their duty extended
5. they have no clear strategy to exit with dignity gwb has denied them that.

So,

Puhleez don't say you don't support the troops.

That will COST KERRY THE ELECTION!!!!!!

WE CAN'T AFFORD THAT RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Karenina]

15. The ones who beat that guy

are the rare minority in our military.

At the risk of being the bearer of sad tidings, the statement above is FALSE. This, according to the handful of 1st person accounts that I have heard with my own ears. This according to the British Command. The "problem" is WIDESPREAD. No amount of justification or denial can alter that. :cry:

[rocktivity]

27. Maybe they DO know they're serving on a lie

Maybe that's why they lost it. But yes, they are criminals, especially if the victim was unarmed. And if there was reason to believe he had ties to the insurgents, he should have been detained and interrogated.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Cocoa]

11. our troops hate freedom

edit: those troops, I should say.

[Scurrilous]

12. I was watching...

...the evening news last night. They showed US troops going up to a shopkeeper and demanding he remove portraits of Sadr from display in his store. The shopkeeper shrugged and muttered something to the effect of 'this is what they call Democracy?'

[jobycom]

14. Because it isn't usually their fault -- Oops, reply to Post 1

They are put into hopeless situations. This case goes beyond what's acceptable no matter what, if the story is accurate. But most of the time we have young men who have not had a chance yet to develop their own belief system who are indoctrinated into doing whatever their commanders tell them, and they are then given orders to go somewhere they wouldn't, face death on a regular basis, and to do things they would otherwise know better than to do.

I don't blame the troops for doing what they are told, I blame the leaders for what they are doing to our troops.

[progressivebydesign]

19. Someone told them to (allegedly) beat a man to death?? N/T

[jobycom]

29. That's why you're supposed to read the posts before responding!

Just teasing. I said that this case was indefensible. My point was that in general we should support the troops because they are doing what they are told, which is what they should do. It's the people ordering them into Iraq that are the problem.

Those responsible for this should be tried for murder, as I said. IF the story is true. But I'm not going to blame all of our troops for because some commit atrocities. I'm going to blame Bush, because he sent us there.

[progressivebydesign]

33. Okay. I blame Bush and Congress overall...

..BUT I blame the individual troops that are inflicting these crimes upon civilians, too. My brother was in the Navy at the end of Vietnam. He was trained to be a gunner... now, he would have done what he was told, as far as completing his duties.. BUT he would not have gone off the deep end in brutality, as some of these individuals have. It's part their OWN personality and choices. Most times these crimes occur when there are just a few soldiers around.. and it's just thug mentality. The same mentality that pushes people to kill and attack people of the Muslim faith here in the U.S.

I blame Bush for getting us into this.. but no one gets a free pass for committing brutal acts against the civilians.. I don't care WHO sent them there.

[jobycom]

38. We're thinking alike, then. nt

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. Well...there's another "liberated" Iraqi. They hate us for our freedom.

[saigon68]

17. Now they have a True Iron Fist in Charge

Just wait till this Fascist gets rolling

[Minstrel Boy]

21. In Somalia, in 1993, "peacekeeping" troops of Canada's Airborne

regiment tortured and killed a young Somali named Shidane Arone, who had attempted to steal some camp supplies in the middle of the night.

It shocked the country and scandalized the Defense Ministry. Canadians learned the name Shidane Arone. The Airborne regiment, despite its long and often honorable history, was disbanded.

I think often of Shidane Arone, and of the trophy photos his killers snapped of his torture. It was a terrible shame for our country. And I think of him now, reading this story, because so long as such beaten, murdered men remain nameless Iraqis, and so long as the US military refuse to confirm such incidents, these atrocities will keep repeating.

Americans need to learn some names. A lot of names.

[Judi Lynn]

37. Appreciate your post. I've never heard the name here, in the States.

Very, very sad.

What a pity that much of the world must be kept poor and desperate in order for the rest of us to live using far more than we need, and never becoming happier in the process, nor wiser, nor ever sated.

Someone should wake up, perhaps, and stop trying to "live the American dream," if that dream means thick protective insulation, conspicuous consumption, and vicious pResidents and their half-snapped cabinets running a murderous game on the rest of the world.

[leesa]

39. Immoral bastards.

I have no problem with the deaths of these kinds of US 'soldiers'

[genius]

40. Ever see "Casualties of War?"

It's difficult to maintain sanity in situations like Iraq and Vietnam.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

41. Humanity (a form of truth) is the first casuality of war. So why get in it

??

Our troops make their humanity a commodity to be thrown away when they signed up in the mistaken belief they were joining up on the side of good.

Maybe if our public schools did a better job of teaching history, kids would know not to lend a hand in PREVENTING democracy, the army would be smaller, and the US government would play well with others instead of selling what is in that Navy recruiting pop-up ad:

"Kicking Butt Mandatory. Taking Names Optional.
Navy. Accellerate Life."

Jeeee-zusss Fekkin' Cheeee-rist!!

This is the shit they put in our kids heads and throw'em to the wolves. No wonder we're on the verge of a complete uprising by millions of outraged Shiites who've seen THEIR women and children slaughtered.

If we continue to allow our government to get away with this, we are responsible for beating that Iraqi man to death.

[DaveSZ]

45. Lock em up

But don't blame all the troops there for the actions of a few.