Catholic politicians scolded (by Denver Archbishop Chaput) | Denver Post

[Ediacara]

Catholic politicians scolded
Chaput rips backers of abortion rights

By Eric Gorski
Denver Post Religion Writer


Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput.

Denver Roman Catholic Archbishop Charles Chaput is sharply criticizing Catholic politicians whose positions conflict with church teachings on the "sanctity of human life," going so far as to suggest they're not really Catholic.

In his weekly column in Wednesday's Denver Catholic Register, the leader of more than 360,000 Catholics in northern Colorado entered a debate that has taken on new prominence with the presidential bid of John Kerry, a Catholic who advocates abortion rights.

But Chaput's admonition to voters also is a notable volley in Colorado politics.

The three front-runners in the state's pivotal U.S. Senate race - Democrat Ken Salazar and Republicans Peter Coors and Bob Schaffer - all are Catholic.

More at the Denver Post

[el_gato]

1. he can fuck off

When he decides to enter the politcal arena he is now subject
to the same scrutiny as the politcians. In other words he
is now a political hack worthy of criticism.

I guess he is voting for the pro-death and destruction party, i.e. the gop.

[fearnobush]

2. If the Pulpits wish to become political, then they must realize that

their stance on sheltering pedophile clergy is an abomination and is open for political debate as well.

[PaDUer]

29. Absolutely...

they've been hiding these guys for a LONG time. And there's more than what's been told because families don't want the publicity.

[SemperEadem]

59. does protecting the sanctity of human life include

protecting children from predatory pedophile priests, too? Or do they protect the sanctity of their pedophile priests's lives by moving them around from parish to parish to prey on new, unsuspecting innocent children?

The Catholic church is a good one to talk about 'sanctity of human life'... they had no problems burning thousands at the stake for heresy--where's their sanctity of human life in that?

This is what that Bishop needs to be hit in the teeth with every time he opens his mouth on political issues--and remind him that when they venture out of religious arena into the political, they venture out of the tax exempt status they've enjoyed and filled their coffers with.

[maryallen]

37. If the Pulpits wish to become political, then ...

TAX them!

[calimary]

63. This life-long Catholic WHOLEHEARTEDLY agrees!

If they want to do politicking - then they can pay for the privilege, just like any other involved citizen.

Frankly, they don't have time for this. First, they need to shut up and get their own house in order - as far as the priestly molestation scandals that STILL have yet to be addressed. When they tell me how they've cleaned up their cesspool of sweeping child molesters under the rug and injuring who knows how many altar boys for life, they can start telling me what I can do with MY BODY (although I'm still not inclined to listen).

[stopthegop]

3. he could...but he won't..

as a non-Catholic in the Denver area, I can say he appears to be a sincere believer in the doctrines of his church, and is saying there are certain actions and beliefs required to be an R Catholic in good standing...sounds reasonable to me...

[mitchtv]

7. to believe in the Apostle's Creed is to be RC

your conscience is preeminent. I don't think the pope has made it an article of faith yet(ex cathedra) been away a long time tho -not that it matters

[stopthegop]

10. no...the 'catholic' in the Apostle's Creed is lower case..

catholic means 'universal'...not Roman Catholic

[mitchtv]

14. upper/lower- the fact remains

Apostle's Creed= tenets of the Faith. or at least that's what I was taught by the nuns and brothers for 12 years-

[stopthegop]

15. case does matter...gives it a different meaning

there are things believed by RC church that are not in the Apostle's Creed that seperate RC from others ...papal infallibility, Maryanity etc...the Apostle's Creed are good tenets, don't get me wrong....but I believe the Creed, but am in no way Roman Catholic...

[mitchtv]

42. Mary is covered.."born of the Virgin Mary"

as for infallibilty= if I remember correctly they told us the "Holy Catholic church" does indeed cover that. so yes you're right, in that single respect but the case in point is that abortion while considered a mortal sin is neither, apostasy, heresy, nor schismatic. and as for refusing to interfer with someone commiting the 'sin' of abortion as far as I can see is no sin at all.I don't believ bishops are empowered to declare political positions as sins, but it's been a long time. render unto Caesar ...

[Ediacara]

4. I am not understanding this shift either

The Catholic Church has been for the sanctity of all human life, and has blasted both abortion rights advocates and death penelty advocates. It seems now that they are taking special pains to blast Kerry (and Democrats) because of their pro-choice stances, but ignoring Republican (and some Democrat) pro-death penelty stances.

I don't get it.

Well I mean, I get it, they're trying to politicize their surmons to help Republicans, but I can't understand why. Are they asking to pay taxes, because they may be edging close to doing so.... :-)

[stopthegop]

6. my understanding is that

church doctrine is alongs the lines of: abortion is always wrong, death penalty can sometimes be acceptable...

Catholics are 'required' to adopt those standards...as I understand it

[Ediacara]

12. I don't think that doctrine holds that the death penelty is ever OK

But I could be completely wrong, as I am no longer in the Church. It was my understanding however, that ending ANY human life was equally wrong, be it an embryo or an axe murderer.

[stopthegop]

13. like you I'm not certain...

someone will come along soon and claim they are..find out then

[sandnsea]

20. That's the new spin, it's a lie

The only time the death penalty is acceptable in the Church is if it's the only way a society can protect itself. Like poor countries that can't afford the kind of prison systems we can. There's no excuse for the Church to support the death penalty in the U.S., although they're now spinning it as a different doctrine than it really is.

[gemlake]

40. Wrong! the death penalty

is never acceptable. The American Catholic Church has simply chosen not to make the death penalty a prominent issue. I'm constantly amazed by single issue, Repug Catholics who are unaware of the Pope's consistent denunciation of the death penalty.

Where is the liberal Catholic leadership in this country? They have allowed the far-right to dominate the discussion of religion and politics.

Jimmy Carter's interview in the American Prospect tackles this issue:

" Well, what do Christians stand for, based exclusively on the words and actions of Jesus Christ? We worship him as a prince of peace.

. . . . Therein, we should not resort to war as a way to exalt the president as the commander in chief. A commitment to peace is certainly a Christian principle that even ultraconservatives would endorse, at least by worshipping the prince of peace.

And Christ reached out almost exclusively to the poor, suffering, abandoned, deprived -- the scorned, the condemned people -- including Samaritans and those who were diseased. The alleviation of suffering was a philosophy that was enhanced and emphasized by the life of Christ. Today the ultra-right wing, in both religion and politics, has abandoned that principle of Jesus Christ’s ministry."

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=7572

[lostnfound]

47. Single-issue Pug Catholics decide based solely on numbers..

1.2 million fetuses > 65 executions


Because Democrats vote for wars almost as often as Pubs, the following is irrelevant, but it would be along the lines of:

1.2 million fetuses US > xx,xxx killed in US wars

> 20% of all pregnancies.

Of course, most of those are classified as embryos, but to the Catholic teaching, there is no difference in the value of life.

[sandnsea]

21. Money for those law suits

That's the conclusion I've recently come to. Because I can't understand the shift either. But they're obviously moving to appeal to white Protestant type Republicans, people who tithe. It's well known poor Democratic Catholics have never been so great at giving to the Church. If they get these upper middle class Republicans, they get more money which they really need because of all these law suits.

I know that's pretty cynical, but I've always heard the Church at the highest levels was way too concerned about money.

[calimary]

64. Besides, how can they consider themselves pro-life if they support

this war? A war based on lies. A war that even the Pope denounced and spoke out against, before it started. Yes. Tell me about being pro-life.

[musiclawyer]

17. Agreed

As a 12 year catholic school bred guy, and a practicing Catholic, I totally agree the Church and its agents should just STFU about politics. Same for all other organized religions in this country. Even a country of free speech does ot allow you to yell fire in a theatre without consequences. Neither should the church or churches, of any kind, be allowed to target politicians without losing their tax-exempt status, because targeting a politician constitutes entering the political arena. If the Bishop wants to put forth a disclaimer and state that he is expressing his views as a private citizen, fine. Bit otherwise it's official church action as far as I'm concerned. Sorry.

[The Zanti Regent]

39. Render under Caesar, bishop!

If churches want to stick their noses in the political arena, they should pay the price.

THE TIME HAS COME TO TAX ALL CHURCHES!

[Nectopod]

5. I agree. If you don't embrace Church teachings, you shouldn't benefit by

calling yourself Catholic. It is just as simple as that. The Cardinal has every right to make this statement.
I'll tell you this. If the Democrats had a candidate who was pro-life, he'd have enormous credibility. If Kerry were pro-life, he'd win the election hands down. Why? Because the Democratic base would still take him over Bush..and the huge Catholic mainstream would vote for him also, many just because of the anti-abortion stand. Religious but non-Catholic voters would choose him for standing up for his religious beliefs.
So why are pro-life Democratic candidates as rare as hens' teeth?
Beats me. We need another Bill Casey.

[mitchtv]

9. wrong Cardinal has no right

also wrong- an anti choice dem would win.
see post 7 above
also wrong... catholics are anti choice

[Crowdance]

16. Pro-choice voters like me would abandon such a candidate in

droves. And there are quite a few of us. We're working for our candidates, giving money to them, and would be very motivated to do that for a third party. So an antichoice candidate might pick up the vote of a few catholics, but he would lose the votes of many, many of us who support human reproductive rights.

[Nectopod]

19. So are you saying you'd vote for Bush instead??

Isn't that a whole lot worse than a pro-life Dem?

[fudge stripe cookays]

22. Not by much.

As far as I and a lot of other women are concerned, the pro-choice issue is one of the main reasons I'm a Democrat.

And as someone who's been there and had to make that decision, I don't vote candidates as much as I do the issue itself. IT eclipses everything else for me.

I give NARAL tons of money, I write letters to my reps, and I campaign. Don't be so sure a pro-life Dem would get tons of support.
That's the main reason I and a lot of other women didn't support Kucinich. His sudden flip-flop from diehard pro-life Catholic to pro-choice leftie made me very uncomfortable.

[Nectopod]

24. Exactly my point

You felt queasy about Kucinich because he abandoned a critical tenet of his religion. Although you wouldn't have voted for him had he remained pro-life, now you wouldn't vote for him AND you don't trust him for changing viewpoints on this core issue.
But for those who are not as adamantly pro-choice as you, many would respect and vote for a man who stood up for his religious principles.

[dawn]

34. Pro-choice voters would go third party.

The Republican would win, hands down.

[fudge stripe cookays]

55. Yep. Exactly.

With no one carrying our true issue on their platform but the 3rd party, we'd have no alternative.

But I bet that 3rd party would really start to grow in support and popularity.

I think the only people THAT concerned with religion (or belief) as part of their platform have already shown where their sympathies lie.

[calimary]

65. Must say I agree with you. I hate to be a one-issue voter, but it's

pretty much come to that. The right to choose is one of those litmus test issues for me. It's what I investigate, FIRST, when I begin to consider a politician for voting. All things being equal, the scale tips to him or her who respects my right to choose. I'm afraid this is NON-NEGOTIABLE.

I say this as a woman, as a mother (twice), as the mother of a daughter who technically now is of child-bearing age, AND as a Catholic. I am ARDENTLY pro-choice. I became even more strident in that opinion after having gone through pregnancy - both of my pregnancies being fairly difficult. NO WOMAN should be forced to do that, EVER, if she doesn't want to. Our medical advances are such that women no longer die of childbirth as frequently as they used to. Even so, it underscores how serious and heavy-weight the experience of pregnancy is. It has been a matter of life and death in the past. Still is, on occasion. It's something a woman should enter into - willingly. Just as EVERY child should be a wanted child.

I will never change my view, until and unless men can get pregnant and can know, for themselves, what all is involved. Until that time, it's for ME to decide, in concert with my conscience, my God, my husband, and my doctor. But I have the last word and the final decision. It's MY body, after all. I will not EVER relinquish its jurisdiction to some politician, some self-appointed right-wing ayatolla or mullah, or any priest. That jurisdiction is, was, and always will be MINE ALONE. My husband, by the way, shares my view. It would not be possible to marry someone who didn't.

[Crowdance]

38. Nah. He's also anti-choice-and I don't vote for those types.

There are plenty of politicians out there aching to run who respect women's human rights. I'd support one of those.

[mitchtv]

43. I'll just say it's a deal breaker

.

[sandnsea]

23. ALL Church teachings, or just some?

There are very few Catholics in America who uphold every single teaching of the Church. Vasectomies, birth control, condoms to protect from AIDS, remarriage, sex after divorce, death penalty, stem cell research; very few Catholics agree on all of this. And as for that HUGE Catholic mainstream that is pro-life; haha, don't think so. Only 20% say abortion should always be illegal and that's the only view that could be considered embracing the teachings of the Church.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/poll010702.html

[Nectopod]

28. Abortion is by far the most important issue on your list

because it involves what the church views as an assault on innocent human life. I think embryonic stem cell research goes hand and hand with this. A politician who actively and publicly acts counter to his church's teaching on this critical issue should be forced to make a choice

[dawn]

35. what about the death penalty?

[Nectopod]

36. "Innocent" life is the operative phrase here

[sandnsea]

45. Only 20% agree

Most Catholics don't agree abortion should be outlawed in every single situation. So most Catholics aren't in agreement with Church teaching and shouldn't be allowed to receive Communion. And don't try the "innocent" human life stuff, that isn't Church teaching either. It's ALL human life. But you never hear the Church take a stand against the death penalty the way they used to. Wonder why. They've lurched right because they think that's where the money is.

[Lugnut]

54. You got that right!

"There are very few Catholics in America who uphold every single teaching of the Church."

I do not call myself Catholic any more. I got tired of being and feeling like a hypocrite.

[cap]

46. why are Catholic pro-life Dem candidates rare?

look at the pews in the Catholic church. We don't have the 10 kid families any more -- when most of us were trying the rhythm or abstinence method!!!

Most of the families are 2-3 kid families, like the rest of American society.

[lostnfound]

48. I think it's because the Dem party weeds them out..

Are pro-choice groups a major source of funding and/or campaign organizers?

What pressure does a politician receive when he conflicts with the party platform? (I don't know the answer to this; just asking.)

[Nectopod]

50. I think you are correct. That makes sense

The Democratic machinery does not allow pro-life candidates to see the light of day. Note the ban on pro-life speakers at the Democratic National Conventions.

[lostnfound]

49. "Catholic Politicians MUST advocate making birth control illegal"

How about that one??
Bet you'd have VERY few takers, Republican or Democrat.
Maybe we need some 'moles' planted in the Republican party or the prolife movement to start advocating that!!

I don't understand why the church violates its OWN teachings in this respect..I was taught repeatedly in Catholic school that 'pro-life' means no artificial birth control, either..partly to remain 'open to life'; in part because the pill can destroy fertilized eggs (if they occur) in the early weeks.

So why aren't they demanding that birth control be made illegal?

(I'm definitely not advocating, just pointing out the inconsistency.)

[Nectopod]

51. Not inconsistent. Abortion is by far more serious

[lostnfound]

53. Not according to 5+ years of Catholic 'moral guidance' classes

I happen to agree with you that abortion is more serious; but throughout Catholic religion class, we were consistently taught that: HUMAN LIFE STARTS AT CONCEPTION, and that because artificial birth control / the pill works NOT ONLY by preventing ovulation but ALSO by making it impossible for a fertilized egg to survive, it was a matter of ending a human life..i.e., just like abortion.

In any case, why isn't the Catholic church pushing to make artificial birth control illegal?

Could it be because they consider it to be a matter of religious teaching/morality/divine law, as opposed to a matter of human law?

[Nectopod]

56. The churchs never taught that birth control and abortion are the same

You have lumped together birth control and the pill which are two different things. The pill is sometimes, in fact, an abortifacient. The church does not call it a contraceptive. It is grouped as an tool of abortion by the church.
So again, the Church considers abortion a far graver evil than birth control.

[keep_left]

57. perhaps, but the RCC is opposed to ALL BC

This is a common misconception (sorry, bad pun not intended)...their opposition to BC includes barrier methods such as condoms, the diaphragm, etc. In other words, they are opposed to BC methods that prevent fertilization in a completely passive manner. This is a _huge_ issue in the African RCC, where enormous numbers of people are infected with HIV, the disease is more virulent (the "O strain" HIV) and AIDS is as serious a heterosexual disease as it is a homosexual one.

And in fact, I think whatever nuanced language the RCC has used in morally differentiating between BC and abortion is largely irrelevant when I drive by fundie RC churches and see huge banners about how I should "Support a Human Life Amendment". That and their "life begins at conception" statement. That is code language, which apparently the Protestant fundies are too dumb to figure out means "we want to outlaw birth control". Both the RC and Protestant sides in the fundie/prolife movement are using each other. I've been watching this for years. The Protestants think they can keep the really nutty Catholics under control by pandering to them while also keeping them out of leadership positions. Meanwhile, the fundie Catholics are peeling off the craziest of the crazy in the Protestant movement and converting them to Opus Dei, marketing cr@p like the EWTN network to them, etc.

99.9% of Roman Catholics disagree with their Church on this one. The RCC hierarchy isn't doing the prolife cause any favors by sucking up to RW politicians who favor some of the most murderous, vicious foreign and domestic policy the world has ever seen.

[lostnfound]

58. So -- why is the church not demanding birth control pills be illegal too?

Here's a thought: political expediency.

[TankLV]

62. Pro-choice does not equal "pro-abortion".

You can be pro-choice and anti-abortion.

What part of that don't you understand?

[calimary]

66. THIS is an EXCELLENT point.

I am pro-choice. But that doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion. I've had two kids. WANTED pregnancies. The pro-choicer in me was what motivated me to ask my then-pregnant, unmarried girlfriend what she wanted to do. All her other friends were saying "get an abortion! Get an abortion." Funny enough, most of her friends are staunch republi-CONS (she's got a LOT of conservative friends, some out-n-out rednecks. Go figure). NONE of them asked her what SHE wanted to do. I did. She said she wanted to keep it. I told her I supported her decision wholeheartedly. It was her right - indeed HER CHOICE - to make that decision. THAT is what being pro-choice is all about.

[randr]

8. I don't think many politicians should be worried.

It took the church hundreds of years to remove their pedophiles, think how long it will take to remove those who practice their own conscience.

[NashVegas]

11. When Are They Going After Divorced Politicians?

Just wondering.

[redwitch]

18. went to nj over Easter

and a bishop there was also chastising Catholic politicians for their pro choice stance. I think that many Catholics are like me- pro choice. If this becomes a huge issue, I will leave the church and so will many others- who are barely hanging on by a thread over the pedophile issue. I keep waiting for the church to excommunicate a politician over this issue. That will be all it takes for many Catholics to leave.

[PaDUer]

30. You should ask...

them to explain those children in the orphanges, many are from the nuns and priests little trysts!

[keep_left]

25. well-known far-right Opus Dei type

Chaput is a big mover and shaker behind some of the worst reactionary cr@p in the Church today. (BTW, I'm speaking as a progressive and practicing Catholic). This is definitely his nadir, but he also pretty much hit bottom with his support of "Catholic Family Radio" (nice Orwellian title). It was a far-right radio network which hemorrhaged money on a constant basis, eventually of course going belly-up a few years ago. If you're not sure what such a network sounded like, think the EWTN Catholic cable channel times ten. Since then, it's similar things with him.

If he's not Opus Dei himself, he's certainly a sympathizer. The political and media structures these people want to create (and ARE creating) completely ignore the social Gospel tradition of the Church. They are the true "cafeteria Catholics".

[2Design]

26. until the church's glass house and everyone in it is clean Silence

The church has not right to interfere or judge civil matters. Until they clean their own house, who are they to judge.

Christ must be truly rolling over in his grave with all the things attributed to him and his teachings in the name of God. And God must be incredibly sick over all the sides doing things in the name of God.... that God would not ever have gone along with...... amazing. Spiritality is a great thing but when churches politicalize it ... it is on a slippery slope...

The religious churches have become breeding grounds for this judgemental attitude toward othes while being unable to adhere to their own standards.

But that is what addicts do, when they can't control themselves they try to control and judge everyone else.......

These guys are out of bounds.......

[PaDUer]

31. Yes..

maybe they'd like to discuss their alcoholism also.

[Malva Zebrina]

27. Oh for Pete's sake

people,innocent people, by the the tens of thousands are being killed because of the immoral foreign policies of a man who claims a god speaks to him. And this is all they can think of?

Good grief. What planet do they live on? This is all they can think of to attack? Women? and their reproductive health and welfare?


Pricks is what they are. Beneath all of their scarlet robes.

This is, apparently the same god that is worshipped by Christians all over the world. I have not seen any Christian denying that Bush worships a different god than the rest of the Christians. Has anyone seen this?

And this is all they can do? They are the piopus bloviators who are being fed by the humble offerings in the Sunday basket from the poor, while th e Vatican basks in it's wealth.

Attack and attempt to regulate WOMEN and their control over their reproductive health? Is this the mission of these hierophants?

The weaker sex? And they can bloviate and puff themself up as the males who are the hierophants of this paternalistic religion that , when challenged, as in their sheltering of the pedophile priests, turns to stomping down to the ground the traditional class, the females who they really fear, down into the ground.

In my opinion, these types of things, along with an insane man claiming he is governing a nation and killintg thousand under the orders of a god, the Christian god, are enough to kill Christianity for many- who, if they think, can see clearly the injustice of this.

Atheists do not care to abolish Christianity--it is Christians like these that will be responsible for clear thinking people who are loving people , concerned about the welfare of their fellow human beings and their democratic freedoms and rights that can do more harm to Christianity than any atheist

[damnraddem]

32. Another theocrat wannabe.

Any sensible politician, Catholic or otherwise, will either ignore him or scoff at him.

[Just Me]

33. NO!!! This is NOT acceptable!!!

This "man's" stand is NOT an act of tolerance but rather another act of oppression. He is "vested" in a regime which is interested in perpetuating itself rather than serving the best interests of humanity.

He is an enemy of "Jesus" who sought to be inclusive, not exclusive. To hell with that man and all those who support him.

[stepnw1f]

41. The Church F'ed Up

That's what this is about. This is an obvious attempt by the Church to butt in where it should never have. Not during an election. The Church is the most hypocritical bunch of blasphemers. From the beginning of modern history it has meant totalitarianism and brainwashing.

[Obamarama]

44. This, from a bastion of boy rapers.....

Un-fucking-believable.

[RetroLounge]

52. Fuck him and his pedophile church

Tax the stupid fuckers right out of business.

RL

[TankLV]

60. If the church succeeds in compelling catholic politicians to tow to a

specific "approved catholic agenda" on various issues, I will never vote for a catholic again, and will campaign to urge others to do likewise.

They are free to believe whatever fairy tales they wish. They are NOT free to impose those beliefs on the rest of us.

[NMDemocraticRep]

61. Mainstream Christianity and being a Democrat are inconsistent

Let's face it, the unilateral, Christ-is-the-only-path-to-salvation is inconsistent with the inclusive statements of core Democratic values.

Sure, I understand Kerry has to pretend to be Catholic to get votes, but it sickens me.

[FemaleDemfromMass]

67. I agree on Catholic brainwashing........

Let them eat FISH!!!

}(

[cap]

68. what is this crap about abortion being a central tenant of Catholicism???

I went to CCD until I was 14. We were taught about the Apostles, Jesus, Mary, the Trinity, the Old/New Testament, the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes. We had maybe 1 class a year on sexuality and the importance of all human life. That's it.

If abortion were such a big deal and such a major tenent of the faith, we would have been taught about it constantly. You know it isn't part of the mass. It isn't part of the Apostles Creed. Abortion wasn't mentioned in the Church until the mid 1800s.

What planet are you people on? Us Catholics in the pews use birth control and have abortions. Remember the 10 children Catholic families --- well, look in the pews. That doesn't happen anymore. Catholic families are 2-3 kids. I guarantee you that they aren't using the rhythm method and that people are using contraception and abortion. We are very divided on the pro-life and pro-choice issues about 50-50.

If abortion and the rhythm method were so darn important they would have been a major part of pre-Cana classes. The whole subject is covered in 1 1/2 hours. My whole class just sat there as glum as could be during the class. Later, when we took a break in the ladies room and us women were making a lot of remarks about how foolish and onerous it is to be taking one's temperature at a set time in the morning and charting that temperature. People even resented having this included in the pre-Cana. Their parents never had this mentioned to them in their marriage prep classes.

I was going to get married in another parish that required the full training in rhythm method (there is a whole course on all the mechanics involved). Well, guess what. Couldn't find any church here that did it. Some people kinda knew about it and thought that maybe somebody else offered the class. Called all over the archdiocese. Nobody offered it.

Another thing. In college, I worked as a temp for Planned Parenthood in Philly. Guess what, there are heaps of Catholic contributing to Planned Parenthood. I am more than not alone. This is a heavily Catholic area and, by gum, Planned Parenthood is going strong!

Go ahead. Kick us out and you will see your contributions shrivel up. You need us to hang in there and bail you guys out of the pedophile mess.


The bishops are selling the church out in favor of bush's faith based charities. The Catholic Church got $300 million alone to Catholic Charities from the Federal government this year. They are using the abortion issue to try to force the faithful to fall in line. This has been instigated by Karl Rove and the Republican party. Before all this great condemnation of Democratic pro-lifers began, the pro-lifers were handing out Bush scorecards in my church.

Watch and see. This meddling in politics backfires much to the chagrin of the church.

As for pro-choice people, don't tell me to leave the church. It's the faith of my fathers since time immemorial. Somebody has to hang around and keep the hierarchy honest.

There are wonderful saints like St. Katherine Drexel who turned her back on her investment banking fortune to start one of the first schools for blacks down south. There is Dorothy Day, Catholic Worker and the nuns who protest the School of the Americas. This is what keeps me going.

[cap]

69. what kind of contraception are you guys using anyhow...

I hope you are using the rhythm method if married. I hope you are abstinent if you are single!

Me and most of the Church aren't. We are using modern contraception and guess what? In most Catholic Philly, half of us are living together before marriage! The priests are instructed not to get mad at us and give us a hard time if we want to get married. And you know, adultery is a mortal sin (for non-Catholics, a really big one.... one that gets you sent to hell). Why aren't they kicking us out of the church for having sex (lots of sex) before marriage???? We go to confession and then go out and do it again! Backsliders... I'm telling you!!!

The whole NorthEast part of the country is pro-choice and that includes lots of us Catholics -- there are heaps of Catholics in NY, RI, MA, CT, etc.

Contraceptive choice is very pertinent to the abortion debate. All contraceptions including the rhythm method have a known failure rate. So what do we do with these failures??? Force women to carry them to term? A small percentage of the US population (200 million) is a lot of babies. Even at the risk of the mother's health???? I dare the bishops to tell that to the American people. They will get hooted out of the pulpit.

The whole abortion thing is a red herring hatched by Karl Rove. You notice that they are saying only politicians should not receive Communion. The Church doesn't dare say that to ordinary Catholics who are happily fornicating up a storm and using modern contraception. At least we're not boinking little boys and girls (just big ones :) !!!

This is just a plot by Karl Rove to divide the church and the church will lose out from their interference watch and see.