Fire was likely started by illegal immigrants, Dever says

[Ptah]

Source: KVOA-TV (Tucson)

HEREFORD - "It wasn't the rabbits or rattlesnakes that started this fire,"
Sheriff Dever said at the morning press conference, insinuating that the
assumed perpetrators are illegal immigrants.

"When this fire started, Montezuma National Monument was closed. The forest
around it was closed," Dever said. "So, whoever started the fire was there illegally."

He went on to say that the fire was started very near to a fence at the U.S.-Mexico border,
in a known smuggling route for both humans and narcotics.

"Anything is possible, except for lightning," he said.
"But it appears to have started right on the fence."



Read more: http://www.kvoa.com/news/fire-was-likely-started-by-illegal-immigrants-dever-says/

[TheWraith]

1. "Anything is possible, except for lightning"

This reads like something out of The Onion.

[Ptah]

5. There has been no lightning, or even significant clouds here for many months.

[TheWraith]

14. I assumed that, but still, it sounds hysterical.

Wildfire? Forget lightning, it's clearly illegal immigrants!

[Yavapai]

33. And even if it was dry lightning starting the fires

the monsoon storms would still be coming north from over the Mexican border! :sarcasm:

[AndyTiedye]

2. Is It an Electric Fence?

[damntexdem]

4. Don't whiz on the electric fence.

Ren started the fire! ;-)

[totodeinhere]

3. Even if it was started by an undocumented person, and I do not necessarily accept that it was,

the fact remains that on a per capita basis undocumented people have a lower crime rate than everyone else. Are they crime free? Of course not, no group is. But this idea that undocumented people are crime ridden just isn't true.

[benlurkin]

6. Unless they are smuggling undocumented drugs

across the border. Does that then mean that they are committing a crime?

[WatsonT]

67. It's a bit silly to say that a group of people defined by breaking at least one law

is generally law abiding.

[provis99]

7. maybe a Minuteman did it.

If it was a known immigrant gathering spot, I could see a Minuteman deliberately setting fire to it.

[Dogtown]

9. Or dropping his Marlboro

when running from a rabbit he thought was a Cartel gunman.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

57. Nah. The piss from his pants would extinguish that fire.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. This subthread is priceless.

:rofl:

[panader0]

8. I am in favor of more liberal immigration laws, but.....

I have been hiking in these now burnt canyons for over 30 years. The trash left by the illegals is appalling. The trash is written in Spanish. It's gotten worse over the years. Very sad.

[Ptah]

10. I agree. With more liberal immigration laws,

people wouldn't be coming through the wilderness.

[panader0]

15. Exactly--the same goes for the pot laws.

The smugglers come through there as well. A very high cost has been paid around here. The ruined forest, the many homes and businesses burnt, and the high cost of the firefighting efforts. The slurry bombers have been buzzing overhead for many days.

[Kali]

25. everything still OK for you down there?

I was about to send a PM then saw this thread and had to click it first. Good to see you. Went to New Mexico this weekend and coming back between Deming and Lordsburg the sky and air were apocalyptic - brown clouds, dust rising of the playas, smell of smoke, darkness at 3 in the afternoon, 100 F...strange experience

[WatsonT]

68. Um no, haven't you been paying attention?

It is literally impossible for illegals to start forest fires on the way across the border.

They are the one demographic that does not utilize fire and exhibits no carelessness.

To suggest otherwise is extremely rightwing and racist.

:sarcasm:

[Hissyspit]

11. Yeah! Those illegals are starting the disastrous forest fires our good legal 'Mericans could be

starting!

:sarcasm:

Like no forest fires have ever been started by American citizens. Good grief. :eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. Gee, that's almost as convenient as that other fire.

You know, in that parliament building, almost eighty years ago.

[KansDem]

13. Here's the reason!

Also the reason dinosaurs became extinct...

[Downwinder]

16. Get lots of suspicious fires when the economy gets bad.

[slackmaster]

17. Sounds like a reasonable assumption to me

I know that's not a popular opinion but that's, like, my opinion, man.

Many wildfires in my area have been started by illegal campfires in places frequented by illegal immigrants. The trails they use are strewn with trash that obviously did not originate in the USA. Their activities really do cause environmental damage.

[Ptah]

18. Yes, I agree that the sheriff made a pretty good case for *this* fire's origin

being crossers.

[Springer9]

19. What is Arizona Border Trash?

Border trash refers to items discarded by persons involved in illegal immigration such as plastic containers, clothing, backpacks, foodstuffs, vehicles, bicycles, and paper. It can also consist of human waste and sometimes medical products.

Characterizing the Impact

Accumulated border trash has been shown to affect human health, the environment and economic wellbeing. Impacts include:

Strewn trash and piles
Illegal trails and paths
Erosion and watershed degradation
Damaged infrastructure and property
Loss of vegetation and wildlife
Campfires and escaped fires
Abandoned vehicles and bicycles
Vandalism, graffiti and site damage (historical and archaeological)
Occurrence of bio-hazardous waste


Quantifying the Impact

Apprehensions of individuals by the U.S. Border Patrol as a result of illegal immigration vary every year. Current Border Patrol statistics indicate that about 110,000 border crossers will be captured during the current fiscal year, which ended Sept. 30, and doesn't count the many others who get through. The border crossers leave approximately six to eight pounds of trash in the desert during his or her journey. The cost of disposing of this trash is high for local communities. Landfill fees range from $37 to $49 per ton in Southern Arizona. These fees do not include costs for materials, equipment, labor and transportation for the collection and transfer of the trash to the landfill.

http://azbordertrash.gov/about.html
http://tucsoncitizen.com/living-on-the-border/2011/01/07/arizona-address-border-trash-as-a-serious-issue/

[wordpix]

27. that's disgusting. This has got to stop. We need to stop the drug war & have a sane immigration

policy

[SoapBox]

30. How old are these photos? When exactly were they taken?

How many people have left the state since the hate really got started?

How has the "illegal" crossings changed, exactly (dates and numbers) since the new hate laws?

I need absolute, verifiable proof, with dates.

The Haters will vomit up anything and everything...Because of such, I now need absolute proof.

They have lied SO much, they are now unbelievable.

[Springer9]

51. Well this is anecdotal, and I'm sure totally unrelated but

since we really cranked up the "hate" here in Arizona, Phoenix and Tucson have lost their #1 and #2 rankings for auto theft rates. 10 years ago and for most of the last decade we proudly led the nation in stolen cars. We have slipped to #56 and #22 in the last year.

I suppose it's because we've learned not to leave our vehicles running with the keys in them in the mall parking lots. I know I don't do it anymore after losing 2 trucks in the last few years.

Thank God that California has assumed the lead with 8 of the top 10 cities, they must be so proud to be moving up in something.

Posted: 06/21/2011
Last Updated: 16 minutes ago

By: Tim Vetscher
By: Margo Papke
PHOENIX - The Valley continues to distance itself from a once dubious distinction.

Ten years ago, Phoenix held the title of auto theft capital of the United States, but new numbers released by the National Insurance Crime Bureau suggest the Valley has made some serious strides.

The NICB now ranks Phoenix number 56 in its 2010 "Hot Spots" report. Text

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/state/phoenix-dropping-down-the-list-of-stolen-car-hot-spots

[Kali]

31. I think I know that van!

:rofl:

seriously, we had about 30 abandoned vehicles around here for a while (we pull them in) and a few stuck in the sand like that but since the scrap market went up they have pretty much all been cleaned up.

I had over 100 good Mexican blankets and one summer we fed the pets on tuna and other food we would find stashed around. (found 50 cheeseburgers from burger king once) Now we are mostly cleaning backpacks, clothes, and plastic water/electrolyte bottles. It has been an "interesting" decade down along the border.

[cstanleytech]

21. Im not seeing many who claim its impossible but I am seeing many asking

for evidence it is and not being shown any so until then its just conjecture imo by some politicians.

[Kali]

26. I am generally a big defender of immigrants (do a search)

but the remote location, Monument closed to the public, and general situation around here are pretty good evidence it was started by either migrants or smugglers from Mexico.

Having said that, there are also other issues of land management at play in ALL the fires going on. There has been 100 years of shitty policy contributing to these fires and no sign of any real progress on that front either.

[cstanleytech]

39. Actually thats not evidence but rather an opinion you are offering but

setting that issue aside what land management policy in the area has been a contributing factor in your opinion to the problems?

[Kali]

41. no burn/smokey the bear for 50 years

hands off/no use or management/let "nature" take its course, massive fuel build-ups for the last few decades

on the other - yes opinion, but an informed one, combined with direct experience

[cstanleytech]

44. Ah in other words the same mistakes they made with yellowstone.

[Kali]

46. not really familiar with Yellowstone

but likely, I suppose - though being in a wetter location with presumably less urban/suburban interface I suspect the dynamics are different.

[Ptah]

47. It was a nationwide mistake.

Yellowstone Fire was an example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_fires_of_1988



The Aspen Fire is another demonstration of the results of Smokey's campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspen_Fire

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. Are you sure it wasn't the unions? Or married gay couples? Or Michael Moore?

Or public school teachers? Or atheists? Or Noam Chomsky?

[KamaAina]

65. Absolutely.

It was the Clenis! :sarcasm:

[nichomachus]

20. A large percentage of fires around here come from people target shooting in the woods

[Lasher]

58. Use a lot of tracers, do they?

That's irresponsible.

[jtuck004]

22. Cool. Don't waste time investigating, just blame the brown people.

'Cause everyone knows that white people all obey "closed" signs, and school\college kids always treat fire responsibly, and there are no homeless people trying to stay warm or eat, and there are no American citizens that throw cigarettes out their car window. And I am pretty sure no sun ever reflects through anything and sets it on fire in Arizona. Shoot, this whole "guilt by it-must-have-been-those-brown-people" instead of a difficult and expensive investigation could solve a whole raft of drug, rape, and murder cases. If people will come across a border to litter there is no telling what they are capable of.

"Arizona Trash" describes more than just what people desperately trying for a better life leave on the ground, methinks.

[alstephenson]

23. +1

[Kali]

28. I think in this case the speculation is pretty well grounded.

This isn't really an area where any of those other possibilities is going on. Its on a known smuggling/migration route, the monument was closed to the public, and from what I know of the terrain it was started right near the line - not a spot recreationists or homeless tend to get to.

[jtuck004]

36. Speculation...like when people who used to live here speculated that black

peole weren't fully developed? Or even earlier when a church authority imprisoned people who speculated about any planetary arrangment that didn't have the earth at the center? There were learned people who provided gravitas to those majority opinions, and many thought there really wasn't another possibility. Turns out that maybe they couldn't really prove their case because their specuation was wrong.

I am happy to learn that this is not the case here. It was interesting to learn that recreationists and the homeless voluntarily stay out of such a predefined area. Do they have guides that keep them from such mischief, or do they all just naturally comply with all laws? Maybe a bulletin board?

(Wouldn't it be a hoot if they found a campsite with the remains of a college graduation party though? 'Course, they won't, because they aren't looking. Because everyone knows the brown-people-who-litter-and-take-our-jobs did it...it just makes sense to any thinking person.)

Thank you for the enlightenment.

[Kali]

42. um, do you have any clue what the geography of the area is?

no you clearly do not

[jtuck004]

48. Oh, it's the geography. I thought for a time it was people assuming

some very vulnerable people, largely classified by their race, were being judged guilty without anything more than speculation. As if it were a stereotype.

I guess we are lucky it's geography. (Does that mean the fire started from volcanoes?). Just think, next someone might have blamed the women who might be trying to cook their family some bread with little more than water and flour. Or could have been someone smoking a cigarette after a several hour trek in the desert with kids and no water, harassed by people in fatigues for trying to make $6 an hour with no workman's comp instead of $3.00 for 8 hours. Dang litterbugs.

I see your point however, as any right-thinking person must. That clears it up nicely. Thank you.

[Kali]

50. Look, you are snarking at the wrong person

I fully agree with your general assessment of the attitudes and I know the assholes will glom onto the "blame the Mexicans" theme, but that doesn't negate reality.

There have been 100s of thousands of human beings migrating through these areas especially in the last decade - they have an impact NO MATTER WHAT YOUR POLITICAL VIEW on the matter is. The shitty policies are to blame for it, not the humans trying to survive. I fully agree. But that doesn't mean they don't set fires occasionally or leave a lot of stuff, or cut trails that errode. I don't BLAME them, but I do SEE the impacts of our shitty policies. Often. Well, daily, really. Look up some of my posts on helping lost migrants, yelling at the border patrol, getting hassled. I think I have posted photos of some of the cleanup results.

Just because I have total sympathy for displaced humans doesn't blind me to the effects they have on the land.

[jtuck004]

55. People are jumping to conclusions with no evidence, just speculation

based on their preconceived notions. There is no justification for such behavior.

The people coming across that border don't give a rat's ass about anyone's sympathy (neither do I). Doesn't do them any good at all. They need jobs, and respect, both of which are in short supply for all of us. They certainly don't need to become the target of a bunch of finger pointing based on unsubstantiated assumptions, regardless of how much sense they make from a particular person or group's perspective.

When the Federal building in OKC was blown up, a crowd beat the hell out of a couple of "middle-eastern looking guys" who were looking at the damage, just like hundreds of other people who happened not to be "middle-eastern looking". It made sense, everyone knows they are terrorists, and even if they are not they are probably sympathizers, and even if not, they probably had something to do with it.

Then the white catholic boy was arrested, convicted, killed.

Phooey on the excuses and the sympathy and the apologies. No amount of any of those will ever repair what people did to those innocent men, and it all started with people assuming they knew the answer before the evidence was in. The really ironic part was hearing them try to justify the crime they had committed because "everyone knew" - and this was AFTER Mcveigh was arrested.

Remember Twilight Zone? The monsters that appeared among the good, decent people on Maple Street were created by the first accusations.

[jtuck004]

56. Dupe

[WatsonT]

69. Or conversely, don't waste time investigating, just exonerate the brown people

Yes minorities have been unfairly scapegoated before.
No, that doesn't mean they are entirely free from fault.

"Arizona Trash" describes more than just what people desperately trying for a better life leave on the ground, methinks."

Yes, the real assholes are those who oppose devastating forest fires and mountains of trash in delicate environments.

[SpankMe]

24. Law enforcement shouldn't speculate

This just adds to the background noise of blaming illegal immigrants for bad things in order to keep the anti-illegal immigrant sentiment going strong.

They never proved that that rancher was killed by illegal immigrants a couple years ago. They just speculated that. But, you still have morons using the murder of this rancher to justify crazy anti-illegal immigrant law.

This is one more alleged, unproven illegal immigrant act that small minds will use to continue the Mexican beat-down.

[SoapBox]

29. ...they just can't spew enough HATE, can they?

Man, these Haters just can't get it out there enough.

Show me the absolutely proof, Mr. Hater.

[Kali]

32. I know him.

He is a repuke and he has gotten a little worse with the anti-immigrant rhetoric lately, but he is generally a good man and serves the county well.

In this case I think the speculation is likely to be true. see my other comments in this thread.

[greiner3]

34. Visited the Monument several times;

And lived close to there for nearly a decade, in Sierra Vista. The terrain is a nightmare to get to the monument. There are several switchbacks going up a mountain. Once you get to the Monument's level it is above most of the foliage of the lush floor of the entrance you are looking at; a desert. Hundreds of square miles of some of the most arid places in the North American continent. Funny thing is is that the turn off of the US highway to get to the Monument is practically the driveway of that neo Nazi rancher who held some kind of rally about a year ago. You may remember it. It made the news. This was the guy who had something to do with running his own vigilante group of like minded assholes trying to round up undocumented immigrants.

Another real funny thing is that the last time I was there there was a 'barrage balloon' circling above the area. An Army fort, Fort Huachuca, is on the other side of the mountain that the Monument and guards the fort from, invasion I guess.

All in all I don't see that many crossers using that particular spot to cross into the US. There are no roads within many miles of the Monument coming from Mexico. If you look on Google Earth you can see several roads coming from the Mexican side. Some stop at the border and some come into this country. A favorite crossing is at the traditional local Indian crossing areas. Other than a few towns on the border, the entire 389 mile length is empty.

I call bullshit on Mcain's allegations.

[Ptah]

35. These allegations are from the Cochise County Sheriff, Larry Dever.

[KarenS]

38. These allegations / speculations / musings

were also made by McCain on Saturday in Springerville after doing a flyover.

[Ptah]

40. If he was referring to the Wallow Fire he was wrong.

If he was speaking about the Monument Fire,
it looks like he was correct.

[Tempest]

61. He's weaseling in trying to blame illegal immigrants

I've lived in AZ and I've been at the monument when it was officially closed. Many times.

Lots of AZ residents visit the monument off-season. All the ones I've seen were whites.

[Kali]

49. "Hundreds of square miles of some of the most arid places in the North American continent."

well, it feels like it this year, but no, not really
I'd hazard a bet the Mojave and parts west and nortwest of here and southwest into Sonora and Baja are MUCH drier. Hell eastern Chihuahua and western Texas are drier than this.

average annual precip is 20 inches

http://www.nps.gov/coro/index.htm

[hunter]

37. But it was caused by our insane drug war, immigration and land management policies...

Fires on rangeland are inevitable and natural.

If we don't allow many small fires over time we'll end up with a few infrequent and very large fires

It really doesn't matter who or what started this huge fire. Our collective irrationality caused it.

[Ptah]

43. Well said.

:thumbsup:

[Kali]

45. true

although a lot of this is oak woodland on steep hillsides/mountains, not rangeland per se (Monument fire discussed here, the big Wallow fire is Ponderosa forest)

[ShockediSay]

52. Scapegoating - good ol' Right Wing Fascism, add the Propaganda

Machine repeating the same line (McCain said the same thing Sunday but failed to cite evidence)

and it just adds up to the Fascism.

[buckrogers1965]

54. So can anyone speculate?

I'm going to blame space aliens.

[Lasher]

59. You have to speculate that the fire would have been prevented by a more liberal immigration policy.

Then it's OK. But if you think migrants were responsible for the fire that started at the border along a known smuggling route in a closed forest, then I'm going to speculate about the Klan meetings you must be attending on weekends.

I haven't yet figured out how a more liberal immigration policy could have prevented something migrants were not involved in but I'm working on it.

[Rosa Menti]

60. Hello Fellow DUers.

This is my first post; please let me know if I do something inappropriate;).

It seems just as likely that in a state that has passed draconian immigration laws, the attempt to smear the targeted group would also benefit from a fire that could be pinned on "illegals". BTW, I never met a human being that was "illegal" except for the laws that disadvantage them from being "legals". I believe our nation needs strong immigration reform that begins with an amnesty for all who have come to America. It was once our ideal, as inscribed on the Statue of Liberty, and now we have sunk into a reactive mode through the "yellow politics" of the GOP. I want my kind and generous nation back.

[Hissyspit]

62. Welcome to DU, Rosa!

:patriot: :toast:

[Rosa Menti]

64. Thank you, Hissyspit

for making me feel welcome! I hope to be able to contribute to the positive energy!:toast:

[The Second Stone]

63. Maybe a teabagger committed arson to blame it on

Mexicans. That sounds most likely to me since we have eliminated lightening and varmints peeing on an electric fence. An old coke bottle acting like a magnifying glass is also impossible. So is the local sheriff's firebug son also impossible.

[okasha]

70. On my stretch of the border (along the Rio Grande)

we have had fires in the wooded floodplain right along the river. The environmental group I work with believes that the Border Patrol is itself responsible for many of them--deliberately burning off vegetation to get a better view from their air-conditioned SUV's instead of actually walking the trails, or accidentally dropping unextinguished cigarette butts. I would assume that the BP is also active within the Montezuma Monument even when it is closed to the public.