Families of the 372nd tormented by stories of POW abuses in Iraq

[Snazzy]

Families of the 372nd tormented by stories of POW abuses in Iraq
Soldier detailed problems in journal sent to father in Md.

By Ariel Sabar, Gus Sentementes and Jeff Barker
Sun Staff

Originally published April 30, 2004
CUMBERLAND - For months, members of the 372nd Military Police Company harbored a terrible secret.

The Army Reserve unit based near here - whose service in Iraq made many of its members hometown heroes - had boasted six months ago of its credentials for a new security assignment at a prison west of Baghdad.

...

But months later, the prison detail was disgraced in news reports across the world.

The Army said yesterday that 14 of the 17 soldiers implicated in an investigation of abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison are from the 372nd. They face either criminal or administrative charges.

....

(Article continues and gives names, backgrounds on the torture photo mp's--first I've seen that with this.)


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[David__77]

1. Wow, they think torture is "kid's stuff."

The howls of outrage would be so loud if these were Americans being paraded around naked like this. No, all too many citizens are racists who think of Arab people as animals. It is disgusting. It seems like a getting one's ass kicked is the only way to teach some people--and countries--a little humility.

[saigon68]

12. HEY FOLKS MEET WAR CRIMINAL LYNNDIE ENGLAND

Families of the 372nd tormented by stories of POW abuses in Iraq

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines








At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the do to our men and women are just?
The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

Everyone had been proud of Lynndie England. A Wal-Mart in nearby LaVale displays her photo on its Wall of Honor. The Mineral County courthouse in Keyser, W.Va., posts her photograph and those of other local soldiers under a banner that says: "We're hometown proud."

Lynndie England had found purpose, and love, in the Army. She got engaged last year to a fellow member of the 372nd, Charles Graner, who appears with his arm around her in the newspaper photo.

THE FIANCÉE WAR CRIMINALS





Now, Lynndie England is detained on a U.S. base - her family declined to say where - and is barred from leaving for anything besides her job. She has been demoted from the rank of specialist to private first class. And when she calls home, she says frustratingly little.

On Edit: The Mother of this creature is exhibiting an anti-social pattern of minimizing and criminal thinking. I'd love to see a DSM diagnosis of both mother and daughter

Does anyone not see WHY AUSCHWITZ was tolerated

[Skittles]

13. this gal has lost her sense of humanity

this either happened because of horrific war experiences or, worse, she has always been that way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. war makes people do thngs that they woudl not do

otherwise.

Now what worries me is that the troops are starting to crack and again this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Oh and one more thing, the CO at the prison should face a general Court Martial even before the troops do... dime on the dollar she gets to retire, and will be encouraged to do such

[Voltaire99]

47. Another way of putting what you said...

Wars are what people hold to do the things they can only wish to do at other times.

In any case, with the rich US history of war, invasion, and "peacekeeping actions," our armies have had plenty of experience with torture.

[saskatoon]

85. "or that gal has always been that way"

Certainly she has. Regardless of the situation--Ok very grim and you going thru' hell, would you do that to a fellow human being. I goddamn wouldn't.

[PaDUer]

103. Wasn't there an article recently

that said these people were able to get some good drugs over there so they think everything's a joke? Something's definitely wrong...Is this what they're doing to our kids over there, brainwashing them so bad that they've lost their integrity and pride?

[drfemoe]

106. She does look stoned to me ...

on what, who knows.

[Skittles]

15. that link isn't working

I'd like to read that article

[saigon68]

17. Link Fixed

Sorry a lot of HTML in that post

[Skittles]

28. thank you my sweet

:D

[leftchick]

34. hey saigon What is she doing with her hands in photo #2?

Someone mentioned it looks like she is using her hamds like guns rather than the thumbs up. I tend to agree. What a fucking LOSER! :puke:

[saigon68]

38. She's shooting at dudes Penis

Took a while to track down LYNNDIE ENGLAND Thanks for the help guys

Mom is 44 and lives in a Trailer In Fort Ashby WV

She is one sick puppy. So are most of the rest of the relatives of these GOONS they sound like FREEPERS.

One thing for sure--- the military is going to hang a few of these SWEET HEARTS out to DRY.

[Voltaire99]

52. Saigon68, what kind of punishment do you think they'll get?

Aren't these punishments gaged to protect the war effort? In other words, will the punishment be tailored so as not to make command look any worse?

A court martial can move slowly, too. This chronology of Lt. Calley's case is worth remembering:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/mylaichron.html

It took two years before Calley was tried and sentenced to life. That sentence was then cut to ten years after Tricky Dick intervened. And then...drum roll, please... For his massacre of a Vietnamese village, William Calley served less than four years!

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Yes but here we shuold not be court martialing PFC England

but the Officer in charge, a Brigadier General...

Then after we prosecute the General, then we try the PfC, even if her punishment shoudl be a tad less severe than the warden at the prison

Dime on the dollar that the brigadier retires and goes on to write a book.. or joins Carlyle.

[saigon68]

66. Its the Yamashita Principle

And the US has never used it on our own troops

The Yamashita War Crimes Trial Revisited.

He was not charged with personally participating in the acts of atrocity or with ordering or condoning their commission. Not even knowledge of these crimes was attributed to him. It was simply alleged that he unlawfully disregarded and failed to discharge his duty as a commander to control the operations of the members of his command, permitting them to commit the acts of atrocity.


http://www.waikato.ac.nz/wfass/subjects/history/waimilhist/1998/yamashita.html

What is not debatable is the elastic expansion of command responsibility for malfeasance and misfeasance the Commission determined. In his appeal dissent Murphy J. of the United States Supreme Court frighteningly argued that:

No one in a position of command in an army, from sergeant to general, can escape those implications. Indeed, the fate of some future President of the United States and his chief of staff and military advisers may well have been sealed by this decision.1

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Reading the whole paper tells me that

if and when we face the music, our troops will

Also the Brigadier should face the music as well, no doubt, as well as the Mercs technically under her supervision

[saigon68]

65. I'm no expert ----my war was over in 1973

1965-1973 I really don't know. Maybe Tinoire has an idea. Maybe some one else is close to the JAG.

I don't think it will be much unless they pin the dead guy ( the morgue shot) on someone.

A bad paper discharge for sure and jail time (Best Guess)

[Kukesa]

89. Military Prison?

Saigon, if convicted, will they go to military prison? Leavenworth, et al?

Once they're released are their lives more or less ruined? I mean, who's going to give them a job? Not that they deserve a job or any place in decent society.


Kukesa

[Supormom]

94. There are plenty of conservatives

who would gladly give these folks a job. Scary thought, isn't it?

[saigon68]

98. I don't know Kukesa

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cpus9808.pdf

Here's a link in PDF that tells all about military prisons

Hope this helps answer your question

[PaDUer]

104. Faux showing

pix of the iraqis on all fours nude!

[leftchick]

57. Thank you for the information on Ms Nazi.....

I think now would be a great time to repost your Nazi Women torturer photos. Ms. Lynndie Nazi fits right in!

[saigon68]

63. JUST FOR YOU LC

The women jailers of Bergen Belsen



IRMA GIESE center HERTA BOTHE w/smirk on right

After the war survivors provided extensive details of murders, tortures, cruelties and sexual excesses
engaged in by Irma Grese during her years at Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen. They testified to her
acts of pure sadism, beatings and arbitrary shooting of prisoners, savaging of prisoners by her
trained and half starved dogs, to her selecting prisoners for the gas chambers.
She habitually wore heavy boots and carried a whip and a pistol. She used both physical and emotional
methods to torture the camp's inmates and enjoyed shooting prisoners in cold blood. She beat some of
the women to death and whipped others mercilessly using a plaited whip.
After the Kommandant of Bergen-Belsen, Josef Kramer, Irma Grese was the most notorious
defendant in the Belsen Trial, held between September 17 and November 17, 1945. Grese was
convicted and sentenced to be hanged. She was executed on December 13, 1945.

The notorious Herta Bothe became a camp guard and soon acquired a reputation as
a sadist who beat prisoners without mercy. She had a good time shooting at weak
female prisoners carrying food containers from the kitchen to the block with her pistol.
And she often beat sick girls with a wooden stick. After the war Herta Bothe was
charged with having committed war crimes. At the Bergen-Belsen Trial she got
imprisonment for 10 years.

[seemslikeadream]

78. saigon68 Does this look familiar?

The legal position, as if it's of any import, is unclear. Not being regular soldiers, they don't qualify for the protection of the military parts of the Geneva Conventions. Not being unarmed civilians, they are not covered by the Fourth Convention relating to non-combatants, either. Nor could they be classified accurately as spies or intelligence agents. Perhaps the new category invented by the US for its prisoners of war from Afghanistan might be appropriate: Unlawful Combatants?

In almost every case, CP officers are ex-soldiers, trained at taxpayers' expense in the skills which governments are finding so valuable and which are being charged back to them at two to ten times the former rate. It's massively more expensive for governments to use private military companies than the conventional forces they have available, but then the political cost tends to be so much lower - private contractors killed in Iraq tend to attract far less media and public attention than conventional soldiers on active duty so the political cost is lower to policy makers and governments fighting a losing battle with an increasing percentage of voters who oppose the conflict.

Against that background, private military companies' involvement in future conflicts looks assured.




The Americans on the other hand - especially those looking after Bremer himself - were the polar opposite - loud, brash and arrogant. They wore a de facto 'uniform' which although it was of their own choosing, looked to have been formed by common consent from a depot of Banana Republic. They parade around wearing Oakley sunglasses, wearing flak jackets and vests laden with ephemera - radios, grenades, spare cartridges and magazines - curly wires trailing to their ears whilst they cradle automatic weapons aggressively in front of them. Beige cargo pants, held up by a gunbelt bearing a personal sidearm seemed to be the order of the day and their attitude made them no friends, especially amongst the soldiers and journalists who their work often brought them into contact with.

[saigon68]

100. Viceroy Bremer and his Bildgewater Mercenary Army



THE FIRST VICEROY OF IRAQ-NAM

Viceroy Pontius Paul Bremer I

announced that more former members of Saddam's military would be allowed to join the ranks of
the new US-trained army because of the poor performance of the Iraqi forces during rebel
attacks.(AFP/Pool/File/Damir Sagolj)





NOT ONLY THE BILGEWATER INC. PRIVATE ARMY w/ ITS HELICOPTERS BUT
SOON TO REHIRE SADDAM’S GUYS AS "CONSULTANTS"

Viceroy Pontius Bremer (w/red tie, blue shirt below) of the Amerikan Province of Eastern
Iraq-Nam

With his Praetorian Mercenary Guard

Appointed by Cheney Caesar in the year of Our Lord 2003

[seemslikeadream]

101. BILGEWATER! What you talkin bout Willis?

when i say bilgewater honey you know
what i mean and you better bring me some

there aint no thang in the wide world honey
that can cure my ills make me swallow my pills
like the water from under
your bridge bay-bay

so when the fisticuffs come round
and the dogs they done look drowned
and the question that yer askin
aint got no answer to be found

i say *splash it*
shove it down the drain
i say slurp it
suck it back up again
i say swirl it
like a hula hoop
like a baby with the croup
like the McLaughlin Group
like Salt n Pepa doin the SHOOP
like Rupert Holmes and Rupert Everett
like Chad Jones and Chad Everett
Shirley Bassey, Shelley Fabares
Ginger Rogers, Doris Day
Linda Lavin, Robert Reed
Soupy Sales is what we need
Charlie Parker, Helmut Kohl
(that’s right, Charlie Parker and Helmut Kohl)
Rosanne-no-last-name with a jelly roll
T-Bone Walker, T-Bone Wolk
T-Bone Burnett and James K. Polk
(our eleventh president.)
John and John and John and John
and John and John and John and John
(but not Jon, he’s weird.)

no one else will be allowed
cos two million’s company
and three’s a crowd

it is time for you to stop your sobbing
it is time for you to take a bath
it is time for you to eat a lot
it is time for you to take a nap

i saw you do
that do not
defy me or
i will have to
take your bilgewater pump
away.

http://www.xantippe.com/words/poems/bilgewater.html

[tedzbear]

102. I got a new name for Bremer: Little Boots

That was the nickname of the notoriously insane Roman emperor Caligula. I guess he liked to wear desert boots too.

:bounce:

[The Stranger]

42. Excellent post, Saigon68.

[qb]

44. Micky & Mallory - a match made in Hell

(Natural Born Killers)

I hope this pair is either imprisoned beyond their child-bearing years, or at least one of them is sterile.

[IndianaGreen]

109. Her mother sounds like a Freeper or an idiot, which is the same thing!

They have stained the uniform they wear. I am sure that many regular army soldiers are annoyed at being smear by the actions of some reservists.

[SemperEadem]

87. When Iran paraded the hostages back in the 70's

there were howls of outrage from Americans--and at least they didn't strip them naked and pose them in degrading positions.

I was shocked to see CNN airing not one but 2 packages on it on Anderson Cooper's program. I do believe that the US will protect these individuals and nothing much will happen to them. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see their relatives on some talk show this weekend defending these actions.

I want them paraded through the streets with placards hanging from their necks labelling them as torturous infidels.

[seemslikeadream]

2. Thanks for that - it the first I've seen with names

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. This fits Lifton Psyck profile to a T,

I am sick to my stomach.

Also wanna bet this is the tip of a very disgusting iceberg and it will include units from small town America?

[northernsoul]

16. What's the Lifton profile?

Can you give us a reader's digest version?

I've always felt that one of the hidden tragedies of war is the way it warps and brutalizes those who do the killing, torturing, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Jay Lifton

wrote about those more suceptible to do these things after WW II.

He concluded that most of the early recruits for the SS came from small towns who were not educated in the ways of the world. Look at where these kids are coming from

Poor backgrounds, (there is some resentment due to that already)

Very small town, with no world experience.

WHoever assigned this unit to the prison, knew what they were doing.

The other thing is... the UCMJ and the Gemran Military Code have one thing in comon, the fact that soldiers shuold not obbey ilegal orders... people from very small towns usually do not internalize this. Or they would have refused orders and demanded the training.

Now once this became institutionalized in the German Army, even kids from large cities refused to go against the wishes of the first brutalized souls.

[Snazzy]

99. "Whoever assigned this unit to the prison, knew what they were doing. "

When I checked this morning, al-Jazeera, the Arabic edition, was running a shot of Wolfowitz touring Abu Ghraib in July--this was the first pic under the hooded electrocution shot.

Wolfowitz was being escorted by the female general we've heard about, as well as two Americans in civilian clothes. (Common Dreams has the same photo on there somewhere).

I can't read Arabic, but it's pretty clear the implication they were offering.

[PaDUer]

105. There's a lot of

online translation sites that will translate any language you want to whatever language you want..some will transfer the entire page by putting in the url.

[Snazzy]

108. Yep, there is an Arabic one somewhere

Used to use it before Al-Jazeera did their english version, then got lazy (the translation was pretty bad though).

It's very interesting to compare the arabic and english versions there--just photos, anyway.

You get to see the uncensored version that no one in the US sees. Even Al-Jazeera tones down the english version, intentionally or for it not being their priority I don't know. I just click everything (and their urls for the links are in English, which helps). And I'm not talking about gore, although there is some. The photos seem to tell the complete story--just not reported/shown here at all. They are a free agent, unlike the embedded western press which seems to produce about zilch in comparison--again on a compelling photos basis, no idea on what spin is in the copy.

Photo I was talking about--this from Spanish media:

[displacedtexan]

4. Sounds like no one wants to face the facts.

This had to be someone's fault.

[Just Me]

5. Will the full weight of this issue will ever sink into these folks?

I just have to wonder.

:shrug:

[seemslikeadream]

14. Just Me have you seen the lego sets these guys played with as kids

[Just Me]

23. Those aren't for real,...

,...are they?

[seemslikeadream]

24. Actually they are real

an artist did a few sets about 10 years ago for a Holocaust museum. One set recently sold for $7500. I'll look for the link


http://users.erols.com/kennrice/
Konzentrationslager



This is the work of Zbigniew Libera, a Polish artist, who in 1995 unveiled his sculpture of a World War II Nazi Concentration Camp made of Lego® bricks. Here are pictures of his models and a link to the Polish gallery exhibiting his work online.

[bobthedrummer]

6. But I thought the abuse and torture came from the MERCENARIES

employed to interrogate, etc. by the administration of George W. Bush aka The War President-I thought the pictures came from Titan and CACI, plus don't forget the fact that DYN CORP. has the Iraqi contract for police and corrections--it's organized crime/mercenary overseeing law-enforcement, fascism, and I do believe that it's TREASON.

[Judi Lynn]

7. Excellent article from the Baltimore Sun on the MP's

From a mother of one of the female grinning guards:

At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

By the way, if Captain Yee at Guantanamo Bay was court-martialed and found guilty of having porn on his computer, and of having had an affair, wouldn't it stand to reason there should be SOME kind of reprimand in order for these people?

[glitch]

10. like mother like daughter, apparently. or,

nut doesn't fall far from the tree.

[northernsoul]

19. how much you want to bet the England household was abusive?

People who've been brutalized often do brutal things...

[Judi Lynn]

39. Probably true, but the "buck stops here" needs to happen at some point.n/t

[TolstoyAndy]

Geneva Convention

Does the Geneva Convention say people can't fight back against a brutal army of foreign occupiers?

Apples and Oranges, Mrs England.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

81. Yee wasn't found guilty of squat.

The Army basically ruined his career and reputation, but not content to exonerate him and unable to prove any charges, "reprimanded" or "censured" him on his way out. Disgusting.

[cynic4life]

8. that female soldiers mother is complaining

saying and what the Iraqis do to our men and women is just? an eye for an eye will make everyone blind. the US wants people to look up to it but then they justify heinous behavior by saying...hey we're not the only one doing things like that

[readmylips]

9. The woman pointing at the guy's groint....

....reservist, Lynndie R. England, 21, .... grew up in a trailer down a dirt road behind a saloon and a sheep farm in Fort Ashby, W.Va., a one-stoplight town about 13 miles south of Cumberland.

The guy in the photo with her, is her fiancee. They are engaged to be married.

I guess, I can call her trailer trash Lynndie. Politically correct word is mobile home.

[mtnester]

55. Gawd....

They are planning on BREEDING. What an awful thought. This makes a bad day worse.

[Christ was Socialist]

67. mobile home lynndie...

My wife has been on my case all day, about me hanging out with the guys she's been a modile home lynndie all week.

[2Design]

11. Those poor parents

The disgrace. Denial is the first. It is like death to realize your son or daughter or husband or wife or father or mother could be doing these things.

These things are horrible.

Yet I also think the stress and pressure can and does make people do inhuman things. Does not change what they did. Does not change that it is wrong.

The nazi's same thing. Ordinary people who followed orders. For some unknown reason, people do these atrocities under order. The armed services teach people they are to follow orders no matter what. This is what corporations do too.

They teach them not to think for themselves, not question.

I question everything. I therefore may not be considered a team player or a good corporate citizen. Many people do not question.

Can you imagine having someone come to your door and show you a picture of your daughter with the Iraqs smiling and pointing at the naked men?

We as a nation are being shamed by Bush. This is like the elephant in the living room. We all know this man is a evil doer, yet we too, seem to be unable to get rid of him. We have let him and his minions commit crimes.

Will we go down in history like the nazi as not doing anything to stop hitler/bush? What can we do to stop these atrocities? They try to say they are isolated. Amnesty International says they are not.

They try to say the civilians running for their life and shot down by snipers are insurgents/enemies. What can we do to stop them?

How do we stop these evil doers who are ruining our country, our reputation, and the lives of so many?

What can we do? How are we different than those in other nations who allowed evil things to happen? This man and his minions must be taken out of office and stopped.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Wrong soldiers are taught to obey

LEGAL ORDERS... they are encouraged to disobey ILEGAL ORDERS

Now this proves what Lifton has written, we all can become Nazis under the right conditions, YES EVEN YOU OR ME.

It also proves the Stanford Prison experiment

Sadly the troops will pay... but the officers above them, and the Mercs will walk away from this with at most a fat retirement (the Officer in Charge), or just a don't do this again, the Mercs.

But the troops, they will pay.

And some of us HAVE done things that we know can be done. I sugest you write an amicus brief to the US Supreme Court for Padilla and Hamdee, or the Guantanamo Prisoners... that will be a start, then... write to your papers, and please SEND these photos to those who matter, aka your congress critteers and FORCE them to bear witness... maybe then they will do something...

[bloom]

29. " How are we different than those in other nations who allowed evil..."

...

That is the delusion that so many in this country cannot accept. That we are not different. That we are not better.

And many hate anyone who would show them the truth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Force them to face the evil

EVERY day, and at every oportunity... we are bearing witness and soem day WE will have to tell these stories to kids who will ask HOW was that possible?

Remiends me of Germany in the 1970s when Shoa was shown, that split the generations as the perpetrators faced their children asking questions, that were far from comvortable

[Just Me]

37. What's worse is that they also buy into another delusion,...

,...that Americans view everyone as equal and don't believe themselves more worthy human beings than other human beings. That's a zinger. It's a total denial thingy generated by an "America must be right/good" concept. Truth be accepted, America is NOT always right or good and America definitely has its own socioeconomic problems.

[TolstoyAndy]

18. Perfect candidates

From the article:
""We are relying heavily on our soldiers with correctional experience," said their newsletter, published in the local newspaper. "The regular Army can't touch us with experience."
====

Why does this part not surprise me? Prisoners in the US
(the number 1 prison country after China, iirc) are
routinely abused and degraded by guards.

That makes Army personnel with this experience just perfect for
torture duty: they're already socialized to see others as less than human.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. this is just the tip of the iceberg

the troops all come from very small towns.

Check the writigns on Hitler's willing Executioners, you will see
the same exact pattern. This was not done out of madness, but there
is a clear method.

[Voltaire99]

53. Excellent point. (n/t)

[ninkasi]

21. We are becoming what we used to hate

We are rapidly becoming a nation of brutal, willfully ignorant bullies. We claim to have the moral authority to police the rest of the world, and tell them what to do. For the first time in my almost 61 years, I am ashamed of my country.

We have a chance in November to begin to reclaim the soul of America, and take control from the most arrogant, corrupt, bloodthirsty regime we have ever experienced. We must turn out in such numbers, that the Repukes will not be able to get away with cheating.

The climb back to being a responsible, civilized nation in the world community will be a long and difficult one; the damage done by the PNAC crowd and the extreme rightwing fundies is almost beyond repair. We must never, never again become the kind of country where our citizens, our soldiers, our politicians, stoop to the depths of the depravity shown in these pictures.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. We need to take a stand NOW

we cannot wait until November... send these photos to your congress critters, and write the papers

[zbdent]

27. What, they haven't tried the "Hey, those aren't from Gitmo! They're from

the 'hazing' during boot camp!" defense yet?

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. their lawyers are trying a more creative one

as it will force the shit UP the chain.

They were not instructed,

Now that will not mean the kids did not break the UCMJ, but will force some accountabilty from the top, which allowed this to happen, if that defense works.

the other they could try is temporary insanity, and the troops breakign under pressure. Frankly the JAG officer trying to make the shit roll upwards has some cojones

[thebigidea]

31. "tormented," huh? Interesting choice of words.

Are they "tortured" by it?
"raped" perhaps?

Golly, perhaps we should save the sympathy for the poor faceless, unnamed bastards who actually WERE tormented.

[not systems]

48. The victimizer depicted as the victim once again.

They must teach this in "journalism" school.

Never mind the human bodies stacked like cord wood think
how the families of victimizers feel when the go to Walmart.

I am surprised that a ribbon campaign for them hasn't been started.

This is no doubt the result of the on the job training
received in the US prison system.

[DinahMoeHum]

32. Piss-poor training and piss-poor leadership. . .

Where were their NCO's and officers?

Unfortunately, folks like Lynndie England are going to take the rap while their "superiors" get off scot-free.


:grr:

[saigon68]

40. No one in any unit I was ever in would tolerate this SHIT

It is piss poor training and leadership.

And I won't even comment on the political fallout from this episode

[bobthedrummer]

41. It's corrupt imo, saigon68-it's that bad now.

We should clean up corruption as part of the war on terrorism, look at the administration of George W. Bush aka The War President, he employs mercenaries with our tax money and has USMC taking reprisals for them, shutting down newspapers and targeting world press.

This, coupled with the release of those pics of Iraqis being tortured by other MERCENARIES employed by the administration of George W. Bush aka The War President, has only ADVANCED THE CAUSE OF OSAMA BIN-LADEN, inasmuch as increasing anti-Americanism worldwide and making US citizens much more vunerable to terrorist attack-and PNAC as well!

I agree as an American and sole surviving son of a Marine that fought against militarism and fascism in WWII and as a defender of our Constitution and our flag, not a corporate killer logo or fascist coup-this sounds as serious as treason to me, man.

[saigon68]

45. I agree Bob-- these are extraordinary times

The information has never been more available for someone to sit down and view and analyze it. The problem is-- and will always be that evil is a powerful force that has to be constantly battled.

I am living in times where the movie Platoon has become an almost daily occurrence. The fight between good and evil.

Thugs like the ones who dragged Rosa Parks off the bus that day and handcuffed and humiliated her always were here and still are here except that America in its zeal to feel good for the troops has dignified the existence of a whole generation of BUMS and BULLIES and many of these are War Criminals in the service.

(I can't wait for the freepers to get here today and start the fight with us over "supporting the Troops")

[Tinoire]

46. These pictures first surfaced on porn sites / world of hurt for us I think

according to Chokie.

On porn sites.

I shudder to think what the retribution from the angry Arab world will be for these despicable pictures of Muslim men forced into the most atrocious acts floating around on Western PORN sites so that depraved people can get their rocks off.

The military expects us to believe they were "simulating"?

This is not, not good. Not good at all.

[Tinoire]

49. NOT to defend them

but think about it.

Untrained young reservists and GS civilians, most assuredly offiver level Intel ones, telling you you're doing a "GREAT JOB". The girl was just a SPC-4 reservists.

I KNOW that none of the intel people I knew would have acted that way. This is more of how Bush has prepared himself not to be prosecuted for war crimes... Get a bunch of civilians in there so we can plead "plausible deniablilty" and/or how we can't prosecute them (which is bull in time of war) and sacrifice a few poor trailer kids working for those/with those civilians.

They are probably confiscating every single camera as we speak... That's what did the Germans in wasn't it? The photos they took... The records they kept.

:mad:


There's something really ugly going on here...

"Prisoners were forced to live in damp cool cells," says an entry said to be from January. "MI has also instructed us to place prisoners in an isolation cell with little or no clothes. No toilet or running water, no ventilation or window for as much as three days."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[saigon68]

64. If fact I believe you are correct

BUT THE EVIL NECESSARY TO SET THEM UP IS MIND BOGGLING.

E-4 reservists from Bumfuck WV are probably not the sharpest tools in the drawer-- but how about the E-6's and E-7s at the jail

The First Sgt had to know something was going on.

At the My Lai trial they only got as high as Capt Medina the Company Commander.

I see your point and as I've said before, I value your opinion very much.

One of my business partners an O-5 is about to get in the stuff So I have a vested interst in this outcome along with 3 close family members, one who's in Baghdad

[Tinoire]

72. I asked myself that question... 17 were suspended in Nov/Dec

THERE are your E-6's, your Senior NCOs, your O-3's...

They were safely suspended, whisked away leaving 7 lower-ranking reservist fall guys behind.

I wasn't there. This is conjecture on my part...

The evil to set this thing up is indeed mind-boggling- but that's what we're up against. Evil.

Peace

:hug: May your family members stay safe... special prayers for the one in Baghdad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. IN a way avoidng the embarrasment of

Mai Lai.

The techniques are not uncommon, as they have been practiced for many years, that is millenia.

The boys in charge (and girls, this is modern war) will not pay, I wonder if they drew lots to see who did.

The old adage applies, shit rolls downwards, very seldombly upwards

[TahitiNut]

91. "confiscating every single camera"? - Please, think about this.

The reason we have a Brigadier General, 7 Officers, and 17 enlisted people "under investigation" is because this behavior was completely consistent with the attitudes and motivations of the entire command structure within which they were committed. This was not an anomaly - it was completely consistent with the general attitude of this command. Anyone that "whined" about "touchy-feely" shit would be ostracized. That's often seen as a sentence of death in a war zone. (Call it the "Serpico effect.")

They took pictures because there's wasn't much, if anything, wrong with what they were doing. That's exactly what they believed. "Just a prank." This unit was deliberately desensitized to this kind of conduct ... both by a command structure that treated laws prohibiting it as some sort of game they can get around by cooperating with civilian mercenaries, and because the 'enemy' is always less than human.

The reason they didn't (and probably won't) confiscate the cameras is because this would send a different message: "we have something to be ashamed of." If they sent that message to the troops, the troops would smell the corruption and get a clue. That message wasn't sent. I doubt it will be.

"Unit cohesion" is jargon for compliant behavior.

[Tinoire]

95. Ah... and right down the Nazi trap then

If we confiscate the cameras, we'll be sending the wrong message... What we are doing is dirty work but it needs to be done and those who do it are heroes...

I hear you Tahiti. And I totally agree that this was behavior was not an anomaly. It shows right down to the big gaping holes in the pathetic cover-up (by the way, the photos of the abused femaled prisoners have been on internet porn sites for a while according to the Arabs).

The are at an impasse... They either confiscate the cameras for "national security reasons" or risk having them all be shown at Nuremberg II.

We will be tried in court for this. Bush can make all the under-handed deals he wants about immunity in court for US politicians & soldiers but we'll be tried.

The laws with which we condemned the Germans didn't exist at the time they committed their crimes. They thought they were safe too.

There is no way thinking people, Generals, CEOs of the mercenary corporations do not know this. If they don't, I'd like to be the one to break the news to them.

We can even do what was done to the Germans- allow the victims to work on the new rules under which they will be persecuted.

[PaDUer]

107. Then * has the balls

to say that's he disgusted or whatever shit he said! BS!

[uncle ray]

35. read the article!

this has been covered up since january at least! how many people knew of this? how many iraqis?

and after reading about them being engaged, i can't help but to believe they were getting sexual pleasure out of this, sorry. it seems too clear.

if things continue like this, we might actually cut and run by june 30, whoda thunkit.

[Tinoire]

50. Natural Born Killers... Micky and Mallory

[saigon68]

51. We heard rumblings in Feb about this

It was right after the LT COL Wyatt Earp THUG decided to do his own interrogation of prisoners by first putting dudes head in an empty sand bag and then shooting his 9 mm Beretta off about an inch from the guys ear.

They didn't do squat to the hooligan officer. The freepers were about to glorify this guy as a legitimate SECOND COMING. There were hints at that time that something bigger was being looked at. I wish I could find those posts.

[atreides1]

83. Actually

The man you're speaking about was fined $5000.00, relieved of his command, and was allowed to retire. Not really much of a punishment, but it was more then two other LTC's in the 4th ID received for taking hostages to force former Iraqi Generals to surrender.

They were considered heroes.

[The_Casual_Observer]

43. We are in Iraq to liberate them from a madman

or was it WMD, or was it a gathering threat or was it....

This is an unholy war built on lies and deception. So, this kind of thing is simply to be expected. This and far worse things are routine in Iraq. The devil is loose and doing his job very well. George Bush & Co. have got it their way, this is the outcome of the conservative agenda.

[proust]

54. how many times have we heard...

That we are the ones who have respect for human life, unlike those ter-rah-rists.

[Greylady]

56. I'm wondering if these photos

were published by the paper in Fallujah which was shut down by Bremer which then ignited the firestorm? Actions have consequences and a few moments of hilarity in Abu Grahib may have led to the deaths of hundreds in Fallujah.

[seemslikeadream]

60. What is happening in Fallujah is a result of the 4 mercenaries killed

there.

The death of all the soldiers fighting in Fallujah is because of them



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=456077

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=461209

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=483399

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=488395

[Greylady]

61. But weren't the mercenaries killed in response to

the shutting down of a newspaper by Bremer?

[seemslikeadream]

70. I'm sorry you could be right

about that. There's so much going on can't keep it all straight.

[Greylady]

76. I understand

throwing out conflicting messages and stories is what our government does best.

[seemslikeadream]

80. and I'm really po'd about the mercenary thing

and it's rotting my brain




The Americans on the other hand - especially those looking after Bremer himself - were the polar opposite - loud, brash and arrogant. They wore a de facto 'uniform' which although it was of their own choosing, looked to have been formed by common consent from a depot of Banana Republic. They parade around wearing Oakley sunglasses, wearing flak jackets and vests laden with ephemera - radios, grenades, spare cartridges and magazines - curly wires trailing to their ears whilst they cradle automatic weapons aggressively in front of them. Beige cargo pants, held up by a gunbelt bearing a personal sidearm seemed to be the order of the day and their attitude made them no friends, especially amongst the soldiers and journalists who their work often brought them into contact with.

[SemperEadem]

90. Friday is their day of worship, so papers were shut down

tomorrow, when the papers publish and those pictures run, I shudder to think of the implications.

[daleo]

58. I give it about a week

And we will hear whispers from certain types (first internet, then wacko media, then Rush/Fox types) that this type of behavior "actually saved lives". There will be claims that vital information was gained, that saved the lives of soldiers, Iraqi civilians, day-care centers about to be bombed, all of it. It will be called regrettable, but necessary, something like that. Think of Dershowitz and his torture warrants.

I could be wrong, but that is usually the pattern. Note that I am not making this case, nothing could be further from my own feelings. Just predicting the right wing ideologue response.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Yep it is again part of the Lifton

process. Jay Lifton described it very well and part of the cognitive disonance, they know it is wrong... but they will not take a stand either. They have to justiry it

[daleo]

68. Speaking of cognitive dissonance

Another thing I have noticed, is that the more unjustified the crime or assault, the more the victimizer seems to develop an actual hatred of the victim, even if they had no problem with them beforehand. Perhaps, especially if they had no problem with them beforehand. This seems to feed some irrational cycle of cruelty.

[Eye and Monkey]

69. Less than a week. If not already, then by tomorrow morning.

It won't be whispers, it will be loud harangues.

[saigon68]

71. HOW ABOUT RIGHT NOW-- REPUKE TRIAL BALLOON

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=5004215§ion=news


In contrast to media outlets in Europe and parts of the Middle East, where photographs of reported torture of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. forces were prominently displayed and decried, newspapers in the United States featured the images of the fallen -- which carried their own controversy.

This shows U.S. newspaper editors understand what kind of war coverage interests American readers, according to David D. Perlmutter, a historian of war and media at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge.

"The torture pictures are absolutely irrelevant," Perlmutter said in a telephone interview. "Americans care about American soldiers, and only journalistic and political and academic elites fret about pictures of collateral damage ...

"If you start talking to the public, you'll find people sympathizing with the soldiers," he said

[Eye and Monkey]

73. It'll get louder. As for the quoted professor, his c.v. and links -

http://www.lsu.edu/faculty/dperlmu/Perlmutter%20CV%20&%20Bio.htm

an example of his work:

Perlmutter, D.D. Photojournalism and Foreign Policy: Framing Icons of Outrage in International Crises. Westport, CT: Greenwood, 1998.

[daleo]

74. "Perlmutter" - an oddly appropriate name, given what he is saying

Richard Perle couldn't have muttered it himself any better. Now torture victims are "collateral damage".

[saigon68]

77. That was Fresh wasn't it

torture victims = collateral damage

Totally Frigging disgusting

[seemslikeadream]

79. A couple more pictures for ya

and check post 78



And it's not just the US government engaging the services of these private armies, operating on the very edges of legality in the shadowy world of close protection. Britain's own Foreign and Commonwealth Office employs civilian close protection officers from UK firm Control Risks Group amongst others to look after its staff and secondees deployed to Iraq. Global Risk International, another British private military contractor has had as many as 1,200 of its personnel in Iraq making it effectively the sixth-largest contributor to the Coaliton Forces. Most of its uniformed troops are either Nepalese Gurkhas or demobilised Fijian soldiers.

I must admit, I hadn't given the concpet of being provided with my own close protection team a great deal of thought prior to my arrival in Baghdad, other than pondering on the motivations of someone who felt their life, should it come to it, was worth less than mine. After all, as a last resort, a bodyguard's role is to protect his principal's life with his own. And in the strange reality that is life within the Green Zone, I soon got used to the men who, looking like extras straight from central casting, arrived at my accommodation each morning to escort me through Baghdad to wherever my assignments took me. It was only later, upon my return that I paused to consider the deeper implications - both legal and moral - of governments using hired guns.

With soldiers still having to battle insurgents and defend themselves, the job of protecting everyone else in Iraq - from journalists like myself, engineers and those involevd in the country's reconstruction to government contractors to the US' head of the CPA, L. Paul Bremer - is largely being done by private security companies. It's believed that as many as 30,000 former soldiers, special forces personel, police officers - and anyone else with the right skills - are working for private security firms in Iraq. With Blackwater charging its clients between $1,500 and $2,000 per day for each close protection officer - and even I attracted a team of four, plus two two armoured SUVs for each excursion - it's clearly a lucrative business.


They travel in armoured SUVs, ostentatiously carrying powerful weapons - assault rifles, sidearms, grenades - and they shoot and arrest people just as the soldiers do but minus the uniform and legal status. They're paid around $1,000 a day, considerably more than the regular soldiers or police officers which they used to be, work six weeks on and three off with paid flights home at the end of each tour. The advantage for the US is that their deaths and injuries don't show up on the figures for troop casualties. They are the bodyguards.

Jo Wilding said it best in her piece on the incident when four 'contractors' were killed, sparking off the siege of Falluja by US Marines.

"We arrived back just after the incident in Falluja where the contractors were shot, burnt, mutilated and dragged through the streets. The scenes themselves, on satellite TV in a friend's house, were shocking, all the more so because the dead men were described as civilians.

But what if they were soldiers, armed men who signed up for war and were paid to fight it? They were shot dead in an ambush - what was done to their bodies afterwards was distressing no matter what, but if they were soldiers, they were killed in action. The truth of course is that they were somewhere in between, mercenaries from US firm Blackwater Security, given a contract by USAID to protect contractors".


http://www.20six.co.uk/weblogEntry/x8ww81cjf0fa

[kodi]

97. jesus christ. paul "maud dib" bremmer with his fedykin

.

[sampsonblk]

75. Marylanders??? UMES??? In it for the money??? Nawwwww!

"Javal and Zeenethia Davis met at age 16 through church in New Jersey and came to college in Maryland. He attended Morgan State University while she went to the University of Maryland, Eastern Shore and graduated from Bowie State. They got married after graduation but didn't have much money, so both decided to join the Army Reserve."

Ya mean people join the military for personal and financial reasons??

I can't believe this chick went to UMES. Its about 10 miles from where I grew up. One of the most beautiful campuses in the country. Probably 80% black. Strong focus on black issues. And then she thinks it might be okay to abuse prisoners?

I guess she and her husband are from New Jersey originally. Good. Sounds like New Jersey. Marylanders are above this kind of behavior. (I have since moved to Central PA though.)

[gate of the sun]

82. they hate us because we buy homes

that's why they hate us.......not because we torture them, pollute their country with uranium, kill them,change their flag and refuse to give them sovereignty.

[roguevalley]

88. god only knows what's happening to Matt Maupin right now. :(

Common decency would preclude a defense of ignorance for these people
regarding their actions. You don't need to be read the Geneva Conventions to know this was wrong. They were supposed to be professionals and since that tall guy is a prison guard in private life, they have no defense.

God help all the hostages and prisoners today.

[Kukesa]

92. Amen.

n/t

Kukesa

[atreides1]

96. Maybe Not

If those holding the hostages play this right, they can gain more sympathy for their cause/causes, both in Iraq and around the world.

I know if it was me, I'd release another video of Maupin showing him in good health, with no signs of abuse. Just think how this would play in the court of world opinion.

Besides remember when the Iraqis had the other POW's they showed them on video, yes they had been wounded, but they looked healthy, no photos of them performing simulated sex acts, or having something
insulting written on their foreheads, they were not paraded naked, and the lone female POW was not sexually molested by her captors.

In my opinion as a former soldier and an NCO, this puts the Iraqi military far above the soldiers involved in this abhorrent action.
A good NCO does not trust a commissioned officer, unless they have served with them, nor does a good soldier trust a civilian, especially if their working for the government. I know I didn't do either while I served in the Army, at least not until I knew the kind of person I was serving with.

Anyway, let's hope that those holding the hostages realize what kind of PR power they hold, and that they do not harm PFC Maupin or any of the others.

[progressivebydesign]

93. These poor people are in denial...

.. in their hearts, if they're good humans as they pretend to be, they KNOW this abuse is not "kid's stuff", and not minor. The people perpetrating these abuses are sick... So, I guess without adequate supervision, we're to believe that ANYONE would do those things? Bullshit.