Internet schools fall short on tests (Florida!)

[Judi Lynn]

Posted on Fri, Jun. 18, 2004




EDUCATION


Internet schools fall short on tests

Two voucher-supported Internet schools struggled on the math and writing sections of the FCAT, calling into question their ability to teach the basics.

BY STEVE HARRISON

[e-mail]


When the Florida Legislature created two taxpayer-funded Internet schools for students as young as 5, critics wondered if parents could effectively teach their children at home using a computer.

FCAT results released this week confirm those concerns: Students at Internet schools -- in which a certified instructor monitors progress but parents do most of the teaching -- tested well at reading, but poorly at math and writing.

The progress in math among Internet students was some of the poorest in Florida. Writing scores of the 1,000 virtual school students were below state average, and the schools ranked near the bottom when compared to other Florida schools in writing.

One of the schools, Florida Virtual Academy, is run by former U.S. education secretary and drug czar William Bennett, a prominent Republican and friendly with Gov. Jeb Bush's family.

DIFFICULT TO TEACH

''I don't think people realize how difficult teaching is,'' said Broward Superintendent Frank Till. ``As a former math teacher, I know that a lot of parents have phobias about math. It doesn't surprise me that online curriculum would have problems.''
(snip/...)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/8951686.htm



(On edit: Miami Herald requires free registration.)

[Massacure]

1. There are some things that can only be taught with pen and paper

Math and Writing are two of them.

[uptown ruler]

2. or by a qualified teacher...

obviously, homeschooling does work, but usually only if the parents have some basic knowledge about the subjects they are helping their children with. qualified teachers are a must.



ScrutinyHooligans

[bleedingheart]

4. the thing I want to know about is how long do parents of homeschoolers

spend on school work?

I know of a family with five kids and the mother is homeschooling. Now these kids range in age from 12 mos to 9 years. How can she really provide a quality education to her older kids while tending to the younger ones and also run a household..????
What concerns me more is the fact that neither her husband or she are very bright and if you were to hear them speak it would remind you of GWBush...I fear their kids aren't getting the education they need. The real kicker is that our school district is very good...

[LastDemocratInSC]

7. It's not just that the kids aren't getting the education THEY need ...

It's also that the kids aren't getting the education that WE need. There's a reasonable expectation that parents will provide their kids with the level of education, through public or private means, that the community needs to function. Education is not just a family matter, but many families in this area (Upstate SC) are strict separatists and have no sense of community.

One family in our neighborhood had a boy who graduated from a "Christian correspondence high school" at age 14 and completed a "master's degree" in biblical something-or-other at 16. The family was VERY proud of these "accomplishments".

The loss of community fostered by religious groups is sad - as in the Southern Baptist Convention advocating, this week, a complete departure of children from public schools.

[sweetness]

13. This debate

about balancing the needs of society and the rights of parents is one that needs to be addressed. It has been my unfortunate experience that many who home educate (HE) their children are put on the defensive by those who oppose or are otherwise ignorant of what HE is. On the other side of the coin it is stories like the one in this thread that further enforce the notion that HE is not what is best for society.

There is indeed a balance that needs to be found between the rights of the state and the rights of the parents but until the accusations and defensiveness is broken through I am afraid that both sides will become more entrenched and both sides will lose.

This is not a national debate at this time but it should be. The problem is that it will become politicized and harm could be done. If the right had its way we would have no states rights in HE and if the left had its way we would have no HE. Either way it would not serve the state or the parents.

Too bad that balancing liberty is so tough!!

[LastDemocratInSC]

15. Home schooling is just like nuclear power

It's a great idea that has never been implemented well.

If those designing nuclear power plants in the 1960s had understood the fundamentals of what they were doing, our nation might be approaching energy independence by now. They didn't and we aren't.

If all parents who homeschool their children understood the fundamentals of what they are doing, our nation might be better off educationally than we are today. Most don't and we aren't.

[sweetness]

19. Debates are difficult

when people make ignorant statements like yours. When you are ready to debate without rhetoric, join in.

[LastDemocratInSC]

23. Let's try anyway

I put this reply under the wrong message. It was supposed to go under your response where you called me ignorant or something like that.

I live in the Upstate of South Carolina, which is nirvana to fundamentalist Christians. I know lots and lots and lots of families who are homeschooling their children and among this host there is only one set of parents who I know are qualified by education and experience to teach. There are surely others who are qualified but I can tell you that of all those I know most of the parents have a minimal education at best. The VAST majority of parents in this area who homeschool their children do so to separate their children from the surrounding culture. They are up-front and honest about this. Education is a secondary goal to separation, and they are honest about this, too. They say that having Godly children is more important than having educated children because God will bless these children in certain ways to compensate them for their lack of learning. I am not kidding.

I say that when when a parent homeschools his children to avoid cultural influences, or hasn't had professional training in the subjects he is teaching, that the parent doesn't understand the fundamentals of what he is doing.

As I said, homeschooling is a great idea that is not implemented well.

[sweetness]

25. Blanket statements with no supporting

facts besides anecdotal are indicative of ignorance. I would be curious to see your census and survey data showing support for your wild claims.

I think that the average 'fundamentalist Christian' would find it odd that they were in a Buddhist heaven!!! :)

If you believe that homeschooling is a great idea (if implemented correctly) you should be open to seeing outside the view of homeschooling as separatist religious movement. It is much more than that and the success stories abound. I am sure that if I were faced with seeing only one facet of HS I would come to an incomplete conclusion and be ignorant of the reality of the situation.

As for avoidance of cultural influence is it not a parents right to raise a child in any way they see fit? If a small percentage of the 2 million or so HS children turn out ignorant to reality is it that big of a deal to society? Just take a look at the results coming out of the PS institutions.

[sweetness]

10. Our Private Home School

Provides instruction in all branches as required by state law as well as many supplemental activities that are not requirements. Direct instruction is utilized as needed for each subject. Assessments take place as needed and range from discussion to testing. Our children ( 9yro 12yro ) work on "school work" an average of 5 hours per day (approx. 45 min longer than the local schools time on task) . As activities in the summer increase their time spent on "school work" is reduced.

I spend an average of 12-25 hours per week with preparation and assessments. Some of the additional activities include and have included long term field studies in biology (water testing of local lakes and streams) field trips to South and Central America, foreign language study and practical application, on average we have PE 6 hours per week and are active in hiking, swimming, kayaking, biking etc....

All in all we as a family spend a great deal of time with the education of our children and ourselves but since we integrate our activities into our daily lives of work (single income) and education and the daily living tasks we end up with much more free time than when our children were in public schools.

[bleedingheart]

3. I am not suprised by these results at all

many parents "through the baby out with the bath water" when it comes to public or even private education and hurriedly rush to home school. So then these parents start educating their kids but they focus on the mechanics of reading and spelling more than math, writing and even some scientific studies because they are harder to teach if you aren't as familiar with the subject matter.

My mother never took algebra II in school, how the hell could she have taught me algebra without having to take time out to learn it herself...and what if she didn't have an aptitude for it???? the child suffers...

Personally I think all parents should be directly involved in their children's education whether the kid goes to public or private school...I think that is what matters most.

I also want to add that I went to a meeting of autistic/apserger parents and one of the mothers had taken her kid out of a catholic school to homeschool him... the poor boy was a mess. His primary issues were social...and staying at home 24/7 wasn't going to help him. However the mother was so poisoned against public school she wouldn't even consider it ...even though the public schools would develop an IEP for her kid. The reason her kid didn't get the help he needed in the catholic school was because private schools don't have to adhere to state regulations regarding special education and are not required to provide IEP's.

[sweetness]

11. Correct

"Personally I think all parents should be directly involved in their children's education whether the kid goes to public or private school...I think that is what matters most."

absolutely correct. Parental involvement (PI) in children's education is mandatory for success. The study of PI is quite new but so far the research has indicated that the benefits are substantial for the child. There are many impediments to PI that must be overcome but it is well worth it. Unfortunately one of th impediments to PI is that the concept that parents can be great supporters of their children's learning has not been embraced by the NEA or the PTA and as a result many teachers and administrators have difficulty with integrating parents into the framework of the children's education.

[bleedingheart]

16. I have found that both my local PTA and the teachers I have

dealt with in our district have done a great job of promoting parental involvement. In fact the purpose of the PTA is to encourage parental involvement in the educational process.

http://www.pta.org/parentinvolvement/index.asp

I will also say that I have never met a teacher that hasn't enouraged parental involvement either. Now I have seen parents who have gone overboard...for example a local teacher asked parents to come in and read during story time, so the first parent comes in and brings all the kids a treat. The next parent tries to out do the next and before you know it the reading time has become some sort of twisted competition, so the teacher ended up doing reading time herself.

[sweetness]

20. Thats great!

But it is not the norm throughout the grade levels nor is it keeping with the policy of many school districts that forbid parental participation in the schools.

The PTA program for PI is great and based on good ( but limited) research, unfortunately implementation is not always easy.

'I will also say that I have never met a teacher that hasn't encouraged parental involvement either' ask the teach if you could watch them teach a class and you will have the NEA down your throat so quick.......ask a new teacher for a meeting about your child's class...without a minder (they call it mentor)...

Something to consider : The PTA is a membership organization that takes money OUT of local schools on the other hand PTO's are not affiliated with any organization except the school they serve.

[bleedingheart]

22. PTA doesn't take money out of schools...they raise money

through membership fees, bake sales, and other fundraisers...I pay $5 a year for my membership.

They don't get any tax money and in fact our PTA had so much money one year that they bought an entire new set of playground equipment with it. They are forbidden from spending the money in the school on books..etc because the district doesn't want wealthier areas of the district to undermine equity across the entire district ...which does make sense.

As for observing classes, that is a double edged sword. I have observed classroom activities and to be honest the presence of a parent is somewhat disruptive to the parent's child and to other children.

[sweetness]

24. PTA Chapters

pay membership fees to the National Org.

'They are forbidden from spending the money in the school on books..etc because the district doesn't want wealthier areas of the district to undermine equity across the entire district ...which does make sense. ' Huh?? I have never heard of this...spend thousands on playground equipment but not on books?? So the rich kids get great playground equipment but can't get better educational supplies...what a school district you have there what priorities!!

It is true that an observer can be a distraction to kids in the classroom but it is something that can be overcome.

[nodictators]

5. Disgraced moralist and gambler-holic Bill Bennett surfaces in Florida

Now he milking the taxpayers out of their education money.

From the article:

Connections Academy by Sylvan showed learning gains in math that bested only 34 out of 2,650 schools that received letter grades. That means 98 percent of all Florida schools showed more progress in math than Connections Academy.

Bennett's school did only slightly better. K12's Florida Virtual Academy showed progress in math better than only 50 schools in Florida.

Obviously, anyone stupid enough to gamble away millions doesn't know much about math.

The odds favor the house. So, the more you gamble, the more you're likely to lose!

[Cocoa]

21. so where's the accountability?

the accountability that everyone agrees is so crucial in education?

Does Bennett have to give the money back?

[msanthrope]

6. I taught high school level classes using computer curriculum

I worked for a charter school here in Philly that used a computerized curriculum.

Simply awful. The kids were shortchanged, but they had daily 'scores' that the admin could point to. I got in trouble one day: I bought 'Othello' for my English class and we read it, watched various versions of it, then acted it out.

Literature, history, etc...the essence of what makes knowledge enjoyable cannot be taught on a computer.

[sandnsea]

8. Bennett - K12, Inc. - it's EVERYWHERE

I posted about this program about 6 months ago. What he does is contract with a poor school district to "monitor" these homeschoolers all over the state. The poor district files for the per student money, just as if these kids were in school. Then Bill Bennett gets a set amount per student to provide software. It's a scam, he's making millions. How to take $100 software program and turn it into thousands.

www.k12.com

[LastDemocratInSC]

18. I'd say Bennett has learned that he can't win by pulling a lever ...

He has to pull our legs instead.

Bill Bennett is an amoral shyster parading as a moral reformer. He knows that his consumers are suckers and is knowingly cashing in on their gullibility. I'd say there's a special corner of Hell reserved just for him.

[NashVegas]

9. OMG This is Nothing Less Than Fraud

HOW IT WORKS

For every student enrolled, the companies get a $4,800 voucher. Students get a loaner computer and free Internet access, and the schools send them supplies and books. They speak with a teacher over the telephone for progress reports, but parents or guardians are the primary instructors.

There are private schools where you can pay that much in tuition and get real teachers.

[Judi Lynn]

12. Speaking of Republicans selling education software to Florida

do you remember reading about _{Neil Bush?}

A software company run by Neil Bush, a younger brother of Gov. Jeb Bush, hopes to sell a program to Florida schools that students would use to prepare for the test that is key to the governor's education policy.

Texas-based Ignite Inc. makes software being used in a pilot program at an Orlando-area middle school to help students prepare for the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, which the governor has championed as a yardstick for school performance.
(snip)

Ryan Banfill, spokesman for the state Democratic Party, called Ignite's marketing campaign in the state problematic, saying it creates a strange appearance.

"I don't know where the money's going to come from for this," Banfill said. "These districts are hard pressed to pay for chalk, let alone to put money in the pocket of the Bush family."

Neil Bush gained notoriety as director of the Silverado Savings & Loan in Colorado, whose failure cost taxpayers $1 billion and led to a grand jury investigation during the term of his father, President George H.W. Bush. Neil Bush was never charged.
(snip/)

~~~~ link ~~~~

[GinaMaria]

14. blended solution

a stricktly e-learning solution is not the answer, just ask corporate America. A blended learning solution works best. An instructor/teacher is needed at some point in the learning process with e-learning. Plugging someone into a computer for 8 hours a day and telling them to learn is destined to yeild poor results.

I believe Florida had some overcrowding in the schools and High School .com was supposed to alleviate that. They should consider having more kids do the e-learning but only 2 or 3 days a week. The other days students interact with teachers and have discussions. They might get better results if students have a mix of both virtual and actual classroom.

Just my humble opinion.

[kerrycrat2k4]

17. When will they learn

Government does education better than private industry could ever do it. If they could just fund the schools instead of halliburtons pockets we'd be on par with the rest of the western world.

[SoCalDem]

26. Surprise..surprise...NOT

The dynamics of a REAL classroom can never be recreated online.. Lots of times, a question by a classmate,can start a whole new discussion that may lead to a "lightbulb" moment for another classmate..

Online "classes" may be ok for those who have no other choice, but the wisdom of funneling tax dollars into scam schools, escapes me completely..