Pope says sorry for crusaders' rampage in 1204

[James T. Kirk]

The Pope delivered an emotional apology to Orthodox Christians yesterday for the Catholic plundering of Constantinople eight centuries ago, saying it caused him "pain and disgust".

...

"In particular, we cannot forget what happened in the month of April 1204," the Pope said, in reference to the sacking of Constantinople by crusaders. "How can we not share, at a distance of eight centuries, the pain and disgust."

The incident, which was part of the Fourth Crusade, was one of the most violent events of the Middle Ages. It contributed to the collapse of the Byzantine Empire three centuries later.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/30/wpope30.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/30/ixworld.html

My thoughts: I hope this helps heal the rifts between churches. Good job, JPII!

[rfranklin]

1. In about 2804, the Pope will apologize for all the altar boys raped...

by sexual predators protected by the Church.

[Spinzonner]

3. That will be Her Eminence, the Pope

[D-Notice]

9. You do realise

That you're implying the Catholic Church will have learnt to treat women as equals in 800 yr time...

At this rate, in a couple of Millennia they'll be apologising to gays

[Spinzonner]

11. Or science will have made males obsolete

and unnecessary for reporduction and they will not be bred.

Although a few might be made and kept as scientific curiousities.

[Athame]

23. heh, heh

:thumbsup:

Be afraid, boys, be very afraid.

[sbreen]

32. i see

the last few posts were by women.....

[cally]

50. What exactly do you mean by that post

I sure hope you are not implying that posts by women are less than posts by men. That's what it implied to me so please explain what you really meant?

[Spinzonner]

58. Not so

Just extrapolating current genetic and biological research and cultural trends

[Merlin]

5. The Papacy will by then have become a quaint relic.

Neither the Papacy nor the church will survive as it is now constituted. The church will soon begin the process of splintering into a hundred parts, only a handful loyal to the pontiff.

Blind, rigid, mindless, ideological stupidity at the helm of the largest organization in the world will eventually lead to its own destruction. Centuries of inbred thought cannot match the worldwide enlightenment that comes with popular education and rational thought.

Papal infallibility will be seen as the grandest illusion in history, and one of the keys to the destruction of the Catholic empire.

[dryan]

17. My 2 cents

You know that this has been said before by people that you may have heard of Luther, Robbspierre, Lenin. You know what, we're still here!

[Merlin]

20. Still here? Maybe. But losing ground fast. Very fast.

Wayyyy too few priests.
Financial problems.
84% of the CATHOLIC public says it doesn't follow church dictums.
Scandals.
Senile popes who don't have the humility to turn over rule to a successor before becoming comatose.
Absurd blindness to the hypocracy and contradictory nature of their own positions (e.g. anti-abortion and anti-prophylactics and anti-sex-education).
Insolent claim of infallibility that Jesus would have cringed at.
Abdication of Jesus' demand to care for the poor and weak among us.

Sure, the church is in GREAT shape. NOT!

[Bridget Burke]

39. Check back in a century

Then we'll see. The Church has managed to change in the past & many hope it will make the changes needed to survive.

[Merlin]

53. Yes it still has enough momentum to last at least a few more centuries.

But it's all downhill from here.

[struggle4progress]

45. Luther didn't want to leave the Catholic Church. He wanted to reform it.

[Rich Hunt]

55. that's funny

....because the Catholic schools gave me a better liberal education than the crappy public schools in my town would have. So much for civilization in the USA.

[saigon68]

26. POPE WILL APOLOGIZE FOR ANAL RAPES

Unlike the Chimp who has yet to apologize for the "CIVILIAN CONTRACTORS" who laid the wood to the young boys at ABU GHRAIB.

[Scairp]

30. And the Magdalene Asylums

When are they going to address that atrocity?


Five years ago in Dublin, Ireland, an order of nuns sold off part of its convent to real estate developers. On that property the remains of 133 women buried in unmarked graves were discovered. It turned out that the women had been incarcerated by the Catholic Church to work as virtual slave laborers in institutions known as Magdalene Asylums.

The asylums were a network of laundries named after Mary Magdalene, who, according to Christian theology, was a prostitute turned devout follower of Christ. The Magdalene Asylums were set up in the 19th century, first as homes to rehabilitate prostitutes and then as industrial orphanages in response to the growth in the number of abandoned children resulting from the devastating Potato Famine of the middle and late 1840s. By the early 20th century, their role was expanded to function as workhouses for women who in a variety of ways had offended the country’s moral code. Run by the Sisters of Mercy in Ireland, the asylums functioned as commercial laundries, financing the order’s operations.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/sep2003/madg-s01.shtml

[Bridget Burke]

34. "Prominent Order of Nuns Apologizes for Role in Magdalene Laundries "

One of the nation's largest orders of nuns says it regrets its role in the harsh Irish laundries that are the subject of the controversial film "The Magdalene Sisters.''

The Sisters of Mercy of the Americas, with 5,000 members in the Western hemisphere and the Philippines and 10,000 around the world, said the reformatories represent "a time in the history of the Catholic Church and religious orders of which we are not proud.''

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/130/story_13095_1.html

Isn't it cute to be ignorant?

[Scairp]

36. Still nothing from the Vatican

When will they address the horror that was perpetrated on so many women and girls? I saw the documentary. I'm quite sure the movie did not do justice to the abuse all of those girls suffered over so many decades.

[Bridget Burke]

38. Perhaps because the Order that apologized was directly involved.

The apology for the looting of Constantinople was a larger thing & still a point of conflict between the Eastern & Western Churches.

[Merlin]

2. Many thoughts: 1) Why not in US media? 2) Is this sincere?

The stories of the crusades are stories of religion gone utterly mad. Western Catholic zealots, charged up with Innocent III's ideological hatred of Muslims, found themselves beaten by the Egyptians, unable to conquer the "Holy Land" and facing an ignominious return to Western Europe.

In a frenzy of jealousy and spite, they turned instead on the most advanced city in the world--the seat of education and commerce--a meeting place for Christians and Muslims and Jews, Grecian Constantinople.

They completely destroyed the city, and occupied it for 3 years. Worse, they left the Greek empire in such shambles that it was soon largely conquered by the Ottomans, who ruled for 7 centuries, completing the divorce between the east and the west.

While JPII decries this monstrous period, he does not decry the insane religious zeal that brought it about; a dementia now growing in rabid intensity in the good old US of A.

[Bridget Burke]

35. Aside from a few grandstanding Bishops, the "insane religious zeal"

in the US is not from the Roman Catholic Church.

Most of the zealots regard the Pope as the antichrist.

[Merlin]

54. I think you're forgetting the subject of abortion. n/t

.

[bushisanidiot]

4. Well, I guess that officially wipes the slate clean then doesn't it?

he should discourage overzealous christians & catholics from using their personal beliefs to infringe upon other's rights.. now THAT would be something.

[Solly Mack]

6. That's nice

:eyes:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

7. Hey - at least THEY apologize - does this administration?

for anything?

[apnu]

19. Or for that matter...

Has Germany and Russia apologized for the raping they did in WW2? How about Japan apologizing for its terrorizing of Asia during and BEFORE that same war?

Just proving a point, yeah at least the Pope apologized, but this only proves how out of touch Rome is with the rest of the world. The 1200's? come on! Why not apologize for being Nazi sympathizers and turning a blind eye to Fascism?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

21. When are we going to apologize for slavery?

:shrug:

[apnu]

22. yeah, that too...

point taken.

[struggle4progress]

42. I thought Clinton did that. eom

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

46. America did not! eom

[wjsander]

8. Finally, some closure!

I can now sleep at night.

[izzie]

10. Gee, and they are so much fun to read about.

What is 'the church' coming to?

[Spirochete]

12. Why does he need to apologize for that?

It wasn't his fault. He was only a kid then.

[catzies]

33. Oh man, that was funny. Best post of the day.

:hi:

[Bridget Burke]

13. There's a Greek Festival in Houston every year....

Held around the Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral. Wonderful food is served outside, traditional dances are performed in the gym, and retsina is drunk. It's one of Houston's oldest ethnic festivals & helps underwrite their building program & their excellent school. (I'm against vouchers but will gladly support our local private & parochial schools by purchasing souvlaki, tamales or spring rolls--yum.)

My favorite part is a chance to tour the beautiful cathedral. First they present the history of Orthodox Christianity. Doctrinal differences led to the split with Rome but the looting of Constantinople was apparently the last straw. It is still remembered with bitterness.

The apology is a good thing. It will mean a lot to those who matter.

[cap]

14. overall, its a good thing

that the Pope tries to bring some peace and closure to this part of the world.

Imagine what would happen if he had backed GW in his "crusade".

[johnfunk]

15. Better late than never, I guess...

:eyes::crazy::eyes:

[jus_the_facts]

16. Why'd he stop there..what about all the other atrocities their guilty of..

:nopity:

[4_Legs_Good]

24. The Pope has been issuing apologies and admitting guilt for 5 years

or so. These are monumental apologies which admit guilt and regret. They are official and from the highest levels. I take them very seriously.

Do they absolve the Church in the evil it's done? No, but they are a step in the process, IMO.

Has the US *ever* apologized for the rape of the Native Americans or the African slave trade? - two horrors far worse than anything the Church has ever done.

Anyway, I'm glad the Pope is taking this stuff seriously, I hope he takes contemporary issues equally seriously in the time he has left (particularly addressing population control and reversing Humanae Vitae).

david

[colorado_ufo]

18. No doubt he feels his own mortality strongly

and perhaps fears the end of other things, as well. The current state of the world, particularly the occupation of Iraq, has I'm sure brought to life many of history's occurences that have only been felt as stories in the past.

There are many legitimate objections to the pope's defined role and the history associated with that role, as well as perceived personal failings and wrong decisions. However, I have never heard anyone accuse him of not taking his position seriously.

No doubt he has heard the prophecies that declare him to be the last pope, or next to last, and perhaps he is privy to other such information that has not been generally released to the public. No man - or woman - holding such beliefs would wish to go to a Heavenly judgment with such a burden on his or her shoulders. I also suspect that this is what keeps him motivated to struggle on despite the enormous obstacle of his failing health and body.

Let us hope that he is granted more time to complete whatever closure he is capable of bringing to all elements of the religious community.

[TO Kid]

25. Can we now expect

Bin Laden to apologize for the siege of Vienna and the Armenian Genocide?

[hel]

27. What has Bin Laden got to do with either of them?

Ottomans laid siege on Vienna, and said to have committed a genocide, or at least, a massacre, of Armenians in WWI. Bin Laden is not Ottoman, he is not Turkish, he is an Arab. He fancies himself the last Caliph, but he has no right to speak for anything concerning Ottoman Empire.

[Crachet2004]

51. Yeah, really. Can we have Constantinople back now?

[thebigidea]

28. I'd like to take this moment to apologize for the whole Galileo thing, too

I just wasn't myself that day - I promise, it won't happen again.

[saigon68]

29. Or Copernicus?

[TO Kid]

31. Actually...

IIRC they rescinded the excommunication of Galileo ~10-15 years ago.

I'm still waiting for Norway to apologize to England for the sacking and looting nastiness, and I demand that Mongolia apologize to the whole world for Ghengis Khan.

[struggle4progress]

44. So some of my drunk Viking ancestors came to England to party ...

and the English blew it all out of proportion, just because the Vikings looked and acted like a motorcycle gang strung out on crank. Get over it! It was no worse than a typical hazing. :)

[mike1963]

37. Gee, with all the recent apologizing, how do they find time for

idol worship?
:eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

41. Here's the true story!

I'm sure you'll appreciate the site. It's got all the information about the idol worshippers, the Scarlet Woman--in other words, the Papists.

www.ianpaisley.org/toc.asp?loc=rome

[Rich Hunt]

56. love it

;)

[recidivist]

40. In related news; Muslims apologize for 1400 years of jihad, ...

... Hell freezes over, and Elvis comes out of hiding.

Well, it never hurts to dream a little ....

[varun]

43. It took him 500 years to apologize for Galileo's

incarceration (Because Galileo suggested that Earth went around the Sun, against Church teachings in his days).

So how long will it take him to apologize for the Church's anti-gay stance?

[happyslug]

49. I like people who repeat errors as truths

First Copernicus's theory had NEVER BEEN DECLARED TO BE HERESY by the Catholic Church (After Galileo's time some churchmen would treat it as such but it never was ruled to be Heresy). The reason for this ruling was Copernicus's theory never violated Aristotle Rules of Logic.

One of the Aristotle Rules of Logic is the simple fact you have a series of Facts that are explained by a Theory does NOT PROVE THAT THEORY TO BE TRUE. Sometimes the person gathering the facts, missed a fact or worse a fact could not be found till after the theory had been adopted.

Given this rule of Logic, Copernicus made an effort to say that his THEORY was only a THEORY even if it was the best explanation of the known facts of how the planets, sun, moon and the earth interact. Furthermore Copernicus made an effort to show he was trying to better show Aristotle's rules of motion including that once something is in a circle, it will stay in that circle.

Copernicus's theory came out of almost 200 years scientific advancement that started with the re-introduction of Greek Science into Western Europe after 1204. One part of that re-introduction was the settlement of the difference between "Found" Truths, things found in the real world and "Revealed Truths" which are truths found by study of the Bible. The resolution of that dispute basically revolved around Aristotle's rules of Logic. First, Religious belief was "revealed truth" and all truth derived from that "revealed truth" as held by the Church to be true, at the same time if it could be shown in the real world something was true, unless they was a DIRECT CONFLICT both would be viewed as true.

Aristotle's Rules of logic would be than used to see if a direct conflict existed between "Revealed Truth" and "Found Truth". Given that the rules of Logic are very rigid it was rare for any dispute between "Revealed Truth" and "Found truths" to exist unless one tries to implies to much from weak evidence. From 1204 till Galileo's time it was rare for a conflict to develop under these rules.

Copernicus used this distinction between "Revealed Truths" and "Found Truths" as his basis for coming up with the concept of Theory. In Copernicus's view a theory was something derived from "Found Truths" that best explained "Found Truths" but the Theory could NOT be proved to be true under any found of Aristotle Rule of Logic.

Copernicus applied this concept of Theory on his observation that the Solar System and the problem of the retrograde of the Planets (when a Planet seems to stop goes back wards and than stop again and than proceed in its original direction) AND TO MAKE THE SOLAR SYSTEM FIT the Aristotle idea that once something started to go in a Circle it would stay in that Circle. Adopting the sun as the center of the Solar System permitted Copernicus to Preserve the concept of Perfect Circles for the Planets thus solving the problems of retrograde of the planets.

When Copernicus's theory was first seen in Rome the than Pope's Science adviser saw nothing wrong with this theory from a theological point of view. He even advocated it (Some people think he might even have introduced the idea to Galileo). The adviser's favorite observation was that if something exists God made it so and therefore any Scientific findings CAN NEVER BE HEARSAY. He further pointed out that any theory derived from such observed facts were also NOT heresy provided that the people reading the theory understood IT HAD NEVER BEEN PROVED UNDER THE RULES OF LOGIC and as such just a theory NOT PROVED FACT.

When that Science Adviser become the next Pope, Galileo took that appointment as permission to write a book on Copernicus theory. The Pope warned him about the book and advised him to revised the book to emphasis that the theory was NOT PROVABLE UNDER ARISTOTLE'S RULES OF LOGIC and in fact VIOLATED those rules of Logic. Since the Theory could NOT be proved by the Rules of Logic (and could also NOT be disproved by those same rules) from the know facts, it was only a theory AND Galileo would be not only violating Church Dogma BUT THE RULES OF SCIENCE OF THE TIME PERIOD if he did not emphasis this weakness in the Theory.

In Response Galileo wrote a book where he put the Pope's words as to the conflict of Science and Theology into the month of a Fool. The Pope Took that as a personal insult AND IT WAS FOR THAT INSULT MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE GALILEO WAS CENSURED.

The scarily part is that within a Generation Copernicus's theory was DISPROVED. Remember Copernicus made his theory more to preserve the idea of perfect Circles than the Earth was the center of the Social System. Within a Generation Kepler had shown that the orbits was NOT circular but Elliptical. You may say that is a minor change, but it was the undoing of the MAIN REASON Copernicus's first wrote his theory.

Now John Paul II has tried to lift the Papal bull regarding Galileo (and did so even through it was only a Censure and more directed at the attack on the Papacy than the Copernicus's Theory).

My point here is Galileo Censure was more a notice to Galileo and other Scientist to use GOOD SCIENCE and avoid dogma.

One last comment, 1204 was the Fourth Crusade, it started the movement of Scientific learning from Constantinople to Italy that become the Renaissance. As to the Fourth Crusade, even an know Anti-Catholic writer like Gibbon (In his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire) mentions that the Papacy disavowed the Fourth Crusade even before it left Venice AND NEVER LIFTED THAT EDICT, but like today many Catholics of 1204 did not listen to the Papacy.

[4_Legs_Good]

57. That is a DAMN fine piece of writing!

Thank you so much for putting it down so eloquently.

As Truman said, "There's nothing new in the universe except the history that you do not know."

I wonder how many other of our firmly held "facts" are total BS.

Anyway, thanks again!

david

[ElementaryPenguin]

47. Just as future generations of Americans will apologize for Bush!!

The Evil Doing War Chimp!

[AlFrankenFan]

48. He was alive that long?

No kidding. It should help heal, but it is way too late for anyone these days except die hard Christians to accept the apology.

[Roaming]

52. Long overdue, but good that it's done. I think if more groups took

responsibility for their forebears' actions, a lot of healing could take place in this world. Even if the person him/herself is not directly responsible, I think seeking forgiveness is the first step towards healing. Racial tensions, for instance, may quite possibly be eased by doing this.