Florida Court Rules Transsexual Marriage Invalid

[Rose Siding]

MIAMI (Reuters) - Florida's ban on same-sex marriages bars a woman who became a man through surgery from marrying a woman, a state appellate court ruled in a complex divorce case.

The ruling, issued by the 2nd District Court of Appeal in Lakeland, determined that for legal purposes, male and female refer to "immutable traits determined at birth" and cannot be changed through gender-reassignment surgery.

The decision came in a divorce case involving Michael and Linda Kantaras of Holiday, a town just north of Tampa. Michael Kantaras is a transsexual who married Linda two years after his 1987 sex-change operation and divorced her a decade later.

The appellate ruling, which overturned a lower-court ruling granting the two a divorce, said there could be no divorce because there was never a legal marriage.

"We must ... invalidate any marriage that is not between persons of the opposite sex determined by their biological sex at birth," the ruling said. "Therefore, we hold that the marriage in this case is void."

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=5761419

[FloridaPat]

1. Huh? I know someone in Florida who got a sex change.

Everything about them is changed to the new gender. If they are still men, how come they're in the ladies rooms? Isn't 10 years a little late to find out you're not legaly married? And what about those poor people who have both sex organs at birth? Too stupid again.

[politicat]

2. well, that's now in conflict with other rulings....

If Mr. Kantaras was granted a corrected birth certificate (which is the procedure here in colorado) then the issue is the judge getting activist.

Great. Lovely. So, since they made a mistake on my birth certificate, is my marriage illegal? (My original cert has both the F and M boxes checked - someone typoed. My current one doesn't even have my gender on it.)

Pcat

[DulceDecorum]

3. So what happens

if you are married to someone who goes and has a sex change
while you are still married?
Thae sex change means that you are now both the same gender
and since you got married BEFORE the sex change,
Heather can too, legally have two mommies.

BUT
if THAT marriage is now not legal,
can you get a real divorce?
Or do you two ladies both have to remain married
and become adulterers and bigamists?

And what makes the 2nd District Court of Appeal in Lakeland, Florida think that their action is not prohibited by the Constitutional ban on ex post facto law enforcement?

[lunarboy13]

4. They are about to walk off a legal cliff...

The problem with that ruling is that there are up to 10,000 people born each year in the US alone who do not meet the legal standard put forth in this ruling (immutable traits determined at birth) because they are -- to some degree -- hermaphroditic. Many doctors have arbitrarily assigned gender through surgery (sometimes against the wishes of the parents) and in many of these cases, the children grow into confused adults -- somehow knowing they are not a man or a woman. So what happens when someone who does not have an immutable trait for a specific gender wants to get married? Who can they marry?

I think this is really what is so wrong with the republican stance. Their whole paradigm is wrong. They seem to think of things as good and evil; with us or against us; man and woman. In fact, the universe, the world, nature, and we humans operate on a much more complex and higher level -- there are shades of gray and in everything there is nuance. I think it's about time we elect people who understand this.

[Solly Mack]

6. ..not to mention circumcisions that went terribly wrong

and I know of 2...and in both cases gender reassignment is being used.

as an aside...same doctor caused both...he was sued big time.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Not to mention the many children born inter-sexed

whose gender is reassigned shortly after birth.

This is what happens when religious myth trumps science.

Thank you Clinton for DOMA.

Thank to all you assholes that oppose same sex marriage. This is the pandora's box that you have opened!

[Solly Mack]

17. You're so right. The problem is far reaching with ramifications

that go well beyond same sex marriage.

it's about how we impose our prejudices on others and ruin their lives.

[IndianaGreen]

18. The true-life story of David and Brenda Reimer

David Reimer had his penis incinerated during a botched circumcision when he was a baby. The parents were told to raise David as a girl, Brenda. It was a decision that they would all regret.

Gender is hardwired into the brain, it cannot be changed, and it has little to do with the sort of sexual organs one has between the legs. The brain is the biggest sex organ there is.

The problem in the Reimer case is that nurture and upbringing could not change what David's brain told him, that he was a boy trapped in a girl's body.

There was a Discovery Channel special about this very sad story. The sadder still because David Reimer, who did change his sex back to male, committed suicide this year.

BTW, under the Florida court ruling, David would have been ruled a female because that is what his birth certificate said (it was changed after the accident).

Amazon has this book for sale:

As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised As a Girl
by John Colapinto

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060192119/ref=sib_rdr_dp/102-2891602-1568935?%5Fencoding=UTF8&no=283155&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books

Like I said, I was sorry to hear that David killed himself earlier this year. The moral of the story is that doctors should not be so quick to assign a sex to intersexed children, but wait and see what their gender is as they grow up.

[Solly Mack]

19. Marcus Welby MD , of all things, had an episode on this subject

a long, long time ago.

My mother gathered the family to watch it because it was something she wanted us to understand. A baby born genetically a girl with male genitalia. The debate was on - in the show. Finally, Marcus convinced the parents the child was a girl because of hormone levels, ovaries , and a womb. All test they had at the time indicated the baby was a girl...in spite of the penis. The gist of it; to make the baby a boy, they would have to give the infant hormones, remove the ovaries and womb and continue through years of reassignment...but to be a girl, they had only to remove the penis and construct a vagina...no hormones...no years of treatment. Marcus remarked about the brain being wired as a girl...though not in those words...but that secondary sexual characteristics kick in ..triggered in the brain...so that the child would have to continue treatment until after adolescence...

and this was years ago...and it seems someone understood then...but they don't seem to understand now. which causes me to believe it's purely cultural conditioning that people don't understand now...

[IndianaGreen]

20. Like Bill Maher says, outside of "guns and Jesus"

these people don't care about science!

How come we fail to see the Xtian Taliban that walk among us?

[jdj]

31. IOW it's okay to reassign gender only in the case of

an accident made by a doctor.

Strange in both cases (transgender and gender reassignment due to medical malpractice) what matters is the outside at least if one follows the logic in this ruling.

Screw what the hormone levels are, screw what the brain believes it is, it's the people on the outside looking in that trump and individual's right to be what they are, despite what the body may tell any 3rd parties.

But we have a xtian duty to jump in and interfere, and control.

This is why I thank God for so-called "trial lawyers", they can sue the hell out of doctors who screw up an child's entire adult life. Come to think of it, the contempt imparted by the phrase "trial lawyers", instead of just "lawyers" reveals the contempt repukes have for the whole american judicicial system.

[IndianaGreen]

32. When the GOP speaks about "trial lawyers" they are speaking of

the attorneys for the plaintiffs in a lawsuit against a corporation. They never criticize corporate lawyers!

This thread illustrates the problems inherent in DOMA and in other laws that are trying to pigeonhole people into male and female when nature itself does not play by the fundamentalists rules.

The fundies are fond of saying that GAWD doesn't make mistakes. They should come to Indianapolis and I will show them Riley Hospital for Children, it is full of GAWD's "mistakes."

[Pachamama]

37. Friend of mine here in the Bay Area is the leading Trial Lawyer for these

"botched" circumcisions...more common than anyone wants to know...if more people knew, they wouldn't be "circumcising" their baby boys...

And yes, in some cases then surgery is done to make them "female"...

[Chelsea Patriot]

7. The Children Grow Into Confused Adults.....

Lunarboy 13! You have just let out the Secret of Ann Coulter!

I have for awhile suspected that Anne Coulter, with her Androgynous looks and ambiguous secondary sexual characteristics is actually one of these people that you so aptly describe.

Born a "Hermaphrodite" and then surgically altered at birth into a female.

This explains Anne Coulter's self-hatred as a woman. She's was not born a woman; rather, she was made into a woman.

I have known inter-sexed people. And honestly, I've never met a group of angrier people then those people who have been "Corrected".

This is what I believe is behind the anger of Anne Coulter.

[msmcghee]

9. Ann Coulter may be . .

. . a despicable person.

But I am getting tired of stupid posts that somehow connect her evil traits to her gender - much less blaming some suspected gender confusion for them.

One's gender has nothing to do with a person being good or bad, honest or deceitful, worth knowing or not.

A person's gender identity can come in a rainbow of flavors and can even change during their lives.

Saying that Ann Coulter hates herself and is angry because of some sex change event is absurd and hateful on your part. Wise up.

[Chelsea Patriot]

22. Read, and Wise Up Yourself!

I'm not identifying Coulter as a transsexual.

I am identifying her as a member of a very small minority of people who are born with sexual organs that do not fall into the penis/vagina polarities. These people are born as they are. Historically, they have been referred to as "Hermaphrodites"; "Inter-sexed" may be the more current word.

However, doctors, hospitals, parents usually quickly assign a gender to these infants and surgically alter these infants' genitalia to conform to the newly assigned gender.

This not "Transsexualism", where gender re-assignment is an operation chosen by an adult. This medical procedure is done at birth.

Frequently as the poster to whom I responded originally stated, many inter-sexed people, who have been altered, grow up very, very angry about what was done to them against their will at birth and confused about their identity.

Anne Coulter physically fits the description of such a person. Search DU for all the comments about her Adam's apple, her mannish physical attribute etc. "Ann the Man" "Man Coulter" "Andy Coulter"
Coulter possess both obvious male and female secondary sexual characteristics.

Coulter also expresses the same level of rage that many such altered people express. Coulter's rage is directed at the "Female" Check out her rants. Everyone knows her targets.

Coulter hates women because she was altered into one against her will in that New Canaan Hospital 40 so years ago.

That's my observation--coming from someone who has lived among gender variant people for over twenty years.

Transsexualism is another scene,completely.

Incidentally, since you know so much about Transsexualism, The Inter-sexed population and gender variation, how many transsexuals have you inter acted with today?

I have two transsexual prostitutes on my front stoop as I post, and I saw three on my way to The Farmer's Market this morning. Since it will be Saturday Night and rainy I will probably interact with many, many more....at the Deli, walking the dog, etc.

[icymist]

23. Your free use of 'transsexual prostitutes' troubles me.

Do you believe that all transsexuals are prosititutes? Is that why you're so freely using these terms together?

[Dookus]

25. I don't think

acknowledging the existence of transgendered prostitutes is the same as saying all transgendered people are prostitutes. No more than mentioning a male prostitute implies all men are prostitutes.

I certainly don't see any broad-brush assumptions being made in the post you object to.

[icymist]

27. Bear in mind that one in ten people you see on a normal day...

is gay. Now, even less than that is a transsexual. Plus, New York seems to equate being transsexual and a prostitute as one and the same, thusly....seeing five (and this person just knows that what they are seeing are) transsexuals in a matter of minutes is highly suspect able.

[Dookus]

28. again

he never said or even implied all transsexuals are prostitutes. He may just happen to live in a neighborhood that has a high incidence of transsexual prostitution.

I honestly didn't read it as saying in any way that all transsexuals are prostitutes.

[icymist]

33. Since the poster only refers to the transsexuals that they see as....

prostitutes and has not addressed to clarify what is meant in their post, we can only speculate intent and meaning. I would suggest dropping this discussion solely for the purpose of keeping peace in our DU family.

[msmcghee]

24. Intersexed people are those born . .

. . with indeterminate or ambiguous sex organs - that don't necessarily match their gender identity.

Transsexuals are people born with apparently normal sex organs - that don't necessarily match their gender identity.

I doubt your vast experience with intersexed persons. They are few and far between. I suspect instead that you get your opinions about that from one of the popular documentaries on that subject - that showed some exceptional cases where rage was totally justified. That's what made them interesting documentaries.

Intersexed people do not go through life hating every person of one gender or another. Some of them hate what was done to them and they especially hate that they are prevented from having a normal life by our cultural stupidity - not by their anatomy.

Yes, there are many stupid comments here at DU referring to Ann Coulter's possible male-like physical (or mental) characteristics.

Saying that Ann Coulter is mean and hateful because she was intersexed at birth or because she's a transsexual (I've heard both here) is just as bigoted as saying that someone is lazy and/or stupid because they probably had some Negro blood in their ancestry. Or saying that a person is weak and lacks courage because they are homosexual. Saying that intersexed people are hateful is simply another stereotype - and is hateful in itself. Predictably, the truth of that totally escapes you.

As far as knowledge of transsexuality and gender variance, mine is first-hand and has been part of my life 24-7 for over 62 years now.

This has nothing to do with sex or gender. It has to do with stereotyping people and putting them in categories that permits us to hate them (more commonly known as bigotry) - which is what you are doing with Ann Coulter.

Ann Coulter has many things about her that actually deserve our contempt - but her sexual characteristics are not one of them. Instead of demeaning people who don't have normal sexual or gender characteristics, why not focus on those, instead?

[Chelsea Patriot]

29. Are you reading what I'm writing?

I'm not saying inter sexed people are inherently mean or hateful!

One of the nicest people I've ever met was inter sexed. This person had been allowed to develop into the incredibly beautiful person she ended up being. Sexual assignment surgery had not been inflicted on her at birth and as she grew, she apparently identified more female.

I am saying inter sexed people can be mean and hateful because of what a culture, which hates them, has done to them.

I think that's Coulter's story!

Congratulations on surviving for 62+ in a culture that hates you!!

For the past ten years I've lived in the epicenter of NYC's Transsexual street prostitution trade, so I've seen what your community is up against 24/7. Street Prostitution is really ugly...The violence from abusive johns and pimps and even sometimes against each other...the bad drugs and subsequent overdoses...police harassment

What really gets me though is how people glamorize this type of Prostitution! Some people think it gives a neighborhood a certain elan. Street prostitution is good for no one.

Unfortunately, our culture has convinced many in the gender variant community that this is the only option available to them. Hopefully, schools like Harvey Milk will show younger members in this community that other options then the streets exist for them. My partner has considered transferring to work in Harvey Milk.

Two of my doctor friends are currently working with the Transsexual community. One trained in pediatrics and since, there is no such thing as an out gay pediatrician, he became involved working with gay/transgendered youth. The other is a psychologist, who specializes in childhood gender issues and sexual abuse. He says frequently inter sexed children are the targets of sexual abuse. Both speak openly of the tensions that exist between the transgendered community and the medical community.

One of the areas of deepest contention are these sexual reassignments at birth for the inter sexed.

Regarding transsexualism, my former college room-mate transitioned about 4 years ago and married. I was really pleased to see her escape the streets. I had heard some hard stories from her about her gender exploration...the sex trade..the family rejection..the rejection by other gay friends.

I have never seen a documentary on gender variation.

[msmcghee]

35. I am reading exactly what you wrote.

Re-examining the thread - first lunarboy13 described the legal confusion that will be caused by the Florida ruling that bans same sex marriage. He used the dilemma of intersexed persons to illustrate his point.

You then responded that lunarboy13 had somehow let out the secret on Ann Coulter. According to you She's was not born a woman; rather, she was made into a woman. That was followed by more remarks that had nothing to do with lunarboy13's point but had a lot to do with your belief that Ann Coulter is angry and hates women because she was altered into one against her will in that New Canaan Hospital 40 so years ago.

I doubt anything I say will get through to you on this but I'll try one more time. What if I said that I finally figured out why George W. Bush is such loud-mouthed arrogant fool? It's because he lived in New York City for several years.

See what I mean?

Bigotry is ugly - even when it is directed at unsavory people -because it insults everyone in that group. Get it?

[Toucano]

10. The ignorance of this court is breathtaking.

Your post is so true.

[Zorra]

13. Well said. A good friend of mine is a Mexican transsexual sex worker.

She is not a "hermaphrodite", unless hermaphroditism also has to do with brain chemistry.

She has told me her life story and feelings in detail.

Republicans in general are narrow minded, intolerant bigots with no capacity for sympathy or empathy.

I truly pity them; they are pathetic, empty souls.

[theHandpuppet]

14. Great post....

... and welcome to DU, lunarboy13!

[Zorra]

5. Boycott Florida tourism. The state government of Florida sucks. Cut

their revenue and all the crooks will be voted out of office.

If you go on vacation, don't go to Florida. Spread the word.

[JohnLocke]

30. I'm from Florida, and that's the wrong course of action.

Tourism is the number two industry in Florida (after citrus-growing). By boycotting us, you're only hurting the people.

Do something else.

[icymist]

8. This kind of crap is not new to transgender people.

A doctor views the "immutable traits determined at birth" by the presence or absence of a penis. This, then becomes the person's sex and determines everything that will pertain to them for the rest of their life. The new born child has no choice in this decision. The state then sets the doctors' opinion in 'concrete' through the birth certificate and will only change it through many hassles after sexual reassignment surgery, if at all (some state will not change sex, only amend the original certificate).

I tend to think of transgender people as the 'canneries in the coal mine'. When the neo-fascists carry them all off to camps, the rest of the population had better start covering their arsses!

[starroute]

11. What about gay transsexuals?

I know someone who was born male but always identified psychologically as a lesbian. This friend has been living as a woman for many years, though (the last I heard) lacking the cash for gender-reassignment surgery. But suppose the surgery did take place. Would the Florida court cheerfully allow my friend to marry a woman? Or would people like my friend be denied the right to marry anyone?

Can you say "failure of imagination," children?

[IndianaGreen]

16. That would be an unindented consequence of this ruling

It will legalize marriage for transgendered that had gay or lesbian sexual orientation.

This is why the marriage license should be granted to people regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Like Bill Maher says, whay can you expect of a region of the country where the only answer is "guns and Jesus"!

[struggle4progress]

12. kick

:kick:

[discordian]

21. Someday, I'm moving to Canada

That's where I had my sex-change operation, things are much better socially up there. Sure, it's not the world superpower that the USA is, but it's also not the asshole center of the universe either. I've always feared that my pronouncement of "I'll never get married again, marriage is bad" might just be forced upon me. So far at least two of the repug states have declared that I can't get married to a man, and since there's no way to consumate the relationship, I can't marry a woman either.

I need to find an intersexed lover, then we can have fun tormenting the marriage license office. Any wild-ass liberal intersexed folks out there looking for love in the form of a thick yet athletic post op MTF transsexual with libertarian and occasionally anarchistic political leanings?

[eyesroll]

26. That's actually their standard?

"No way to consumate the relationship?"
(If that's your standard, not the state's -- you don't want to marry a woman -- then of course that's totally valid and ignore the rest of this.)

I assume they mean penis-in-vagina intercourse. Do these repug states bar marriage for the impotent? For people who've had their reproductive organs removed or altered due to disease or accident?

Oh, and welcome, discordian.

[Pachamama]

38. That's great! I wish I knew a FTM, but I don't....only a great MTF....

She's famous....Dr. Marci Bowers....was my OB Gyn and delivered my first child....Best OB GYN in the country, or I should say "was"...she is now in Colorado being mentored by a Doctor there (forgot his name) that is teaching her how to perform gender related surgeries for MTF or FTM....She is a great doctor and person....

[Walt Starr]

34. Some people use a compass to determine direction.

Others read the entrails of a chicken.

I use a compass.

[Pachamama]

36. What if one person in a married couple has a sex change? Can their

marriage be invalidated because they are now same-sex? I know someone in Washington state who had a sex change (Male to Female) and because they are Catholic and agreed "till death do us part" remain married to this day. The wife is raising the kids and they call their former Dad by "her" chosen name, but based on a court ruling like this which effectively says that its dependent on a persons gender at birth, then wouldn't this ruling mean that the friends of mine who are now "same sex" have a valid marriage?

:eyes: