Girl with disorder denied Communion

[malachi]

She can't eat wheat, but the Trenton Diocese rejected an all-rice host. Her mother is seeking a rule change.

Score another one for the Catholic Church. Amazingly stupid and un-Christlike attitude.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/new_jersey/9387217.htm?

[prolesunited]

1. It's things like this that make you go

:wtf:

I'm sure Jesus would approve. :eyes:

[papau]

15. The Trenton Bishop is not the word of God - and appears to be

not thinking straight - at least IMHO.

[atreides1]

2. While I Agree With You

I expect soon that you will get slammed by someone who will tell you that it's church doctrine and if they don't like, tough.

[eyesroll]

3. I'm not Catholic -- can anyone explain what this means spiritually?

Assuming that the girl doesn't threaten her health by taking the wheat host, and the Diocese doesn't budge, she won't ever have taken communion.

I know this isn't going to help the girl feel comfortable or accepted in church, but if someone who is otherwise a Catholic in good standing doesn't take communion, what does that mean, according to doctrine, for her soul? (It's my understanding that the Catholic Church accepts most Protestants as fellow believers in Christ, even if their denomination doesn't do communion, but what about Catholics themselves?)

[lil-petunia]

5. the bread represents the body of christ

the wine, his blood. By stuffing this stuff down your throat, you are accepting JC into your body. Kind of like a symbiot on Stargate.

You are supposed to think christian thoughts, be nice to people, quit abusing children sexually, pay your taxes and give lots of money to the church.

Time has told us again and again, how well it works.

[Peregrine]

16. No, in catholicism it IS the body and blood of the christ

Therein lies the rub. Catholics believe in trans-substantiation, the bread (cracker) is transformed into the body of christ. You see jesus didn't offer the crowd a rice cake as his body at the last dinner.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

61. No doubt, since it's miraculously transformed...

the church figures the girl couldn't possibly be allergic to Christ's body.

[SidDithers]

95. She wouldn't be...

If the church gave offered a nice piece of beef jerky as the host. Meat is gluten free.

Sid

[MrPrax]

35. "like a symbiot on Stargate"

LOL

primitive totemism in other words...

if you eat the meat of the deer you will become agile and fast, if you eat the meat of the bear, you will be strong and feared...if you eat the body of Jesus, you will become...um...a Catholic??

Some have viewed this as a form of cannibalism of course...

[lil-petunia]

85. You got it.

If I eat sushi, does that mean I can breathe under water?

Acorns will make me strong and tall?

eating out my honey will hmmmmm.

[Baltimoreboy]

86. Some view those comments offensive, of course

But they were designed that way after all.

[Almost_there]

56. Hmm... anti-Christian, are we?

OK, I'll get flamed for being Christian, but, I do have to agree with Peregrine here. To Catholics, and most Christians, it isn't representative of Christ, it isn't "taking Christ into your life", it IS the Body and Blood of Christ.

I do actually think the Church should make allowances for her to have a rice wafer, but, let's not ridicule a BILLION people and their faith, shall we? I really hate being a Christian on this board sometimes, all I hear about are the fundies and nuts who love Jee-zus.

Its amazing that we're still talking about a guy who lived for all of 33 years just about, oh, two thousand and four years ago. Funny how that works out, huh? Flame away, but, at least understand that there are Christians who believe that being a liberal is OK.

~Almost

[The Political Eye]

62. Count me as another Catholic Liberal

I don't want to debate religion but count me as another Christian Catholic liberal

[Elginoid]

102. ummmmm.......no.

To Catholics, and most Christians, it isn't representative of Christ, it isn't "taking Christ into your life", it IS the Body and Blood of Christ...

actually, most Christians see it as representative of christ's body/blood- catholics are the only ones wacky enough to believe in transubstantiation.

[QC]

108. Wrong.

Orthodox Christians also believe in transubstantiation. Are they "wacky" too?

[Almost_there]

120. Here's a hint for you...

First, "whacky" isn't a word I would use to describe myself and the ONE BILLION other Catholics in the world. That's right, fully 1/5 of the World's population is "whacky".

Secondly, you are wrong in your gross assumption about only Catholics believe that the Eucharist actually BEING the Body of Christ. Hating religion doesn't mean you can just toss stuff around from a point of ignorance. Sorry, but, I take your attacks personally.

~Almost

[TaleWgnDg]

8. what does it mean?

it means that a wheat intolerant person cannot receive one of the "sacred sacraments" of the Roman Catholic Church . . . ummm, I wonder will she go to hell?

(done in my best sarcastic hat . . . how did I do? :evilgrin:)

[Cerridwen]

10. It's easier to understand if

you don't consider religion and spirituality the same thing.

Religion appears to be those institutions created by men for men in order to control other men. Rules are rules and follow them or go to hell.

Spirituality appears to be that which occurs within an individual without the influence or intrusion of man-made rules.

Just my take on it.

[ezee]

18. WELL SAID,;.........N/T

[MountainLaurel]

23. A great shirt I once saw

Religion is for those afraid of going to hell . . .

Spirituality is for those who have already been there.

[Cerridwen]

33. Oooo, I like that n/t

[ReadTomPaine]

51. Well put, I’ve felt similarly for many years…

Religion is a vehicle to spirituality, it’s not an ‘end’ but a ‘means’ by which to reach a spiritual state. Some feel or were taught they need this assistance and others do not as they are able to be spiritual without the framework of religion to support them.

Large, centrally administered organized religions, due their very nature, are excellent social control devices and have been used as such throughout history- tempering the good they do with questionable policies regarding both outsiders and their own constituents.

As a close friend of mine used to say, organized religions are what people use to manipulate young men to drive truckloads full of explosives into buildings. My own feelings on the matter are similar – if one can do without the crutch of religion to attain a spiritual state, then by all means one should do so, if only to eliminate the possibility of being taken advantage of by the unscrupulous. There seems to be a lot of that sort of manipulation these days.

ReadTomPaine

[Geo55]

52. I like your take on this ,

We all will advance spiritually...different speeds , different creeds , and unfortunately there are a gazillion paths.
Some lead to what may be called "hell" by some folks.

[NashVegas]

22. It Depends on the Girl, Really

The dogma has it she'll simply never have merged with Jesus the way other parishoners have. If she is the sort who fully comprehends what that means in her religion, she may have a bit of a crisis. If she is the sort who's doing it all by rote, she may resent not being able to do what her peers do.

Either way, this is probably going to be the incident that first makes her truly question the church. BIG mistake on their part.

[Lizz612]

47. I've had a crash course in Catholicism

(Two years of High School religion class at a super conservative Catholic school)

To receive communion is to receive Christ, it is the closest a Catholic can get to Christ this side of death. Communion is just that, communion with Christ, the closest a Catholic can get to God this side of death. Communion is the largest single way to receive the grace of God.

[PATRICK]

53. It means there was no rice in the ME

And since they didn't bother to be flexible with the Asians who could use wheat they suddenly find an awkward exception with potentially large repercussions for the liturgically timid.

Sensitive understanding, spiritual confidence, is not universal in human nature. She could receive the wine, unfermented, but this was never meant to be a divinization of agricultural accident. Those wanted to consecrate donuts in the sixties had the other wrong idea though the wheat was there.

Anybody can pick out these interesting side issues and watch ordinary human beings stumble all over their safety in tradition.

Food for thought, but the outrage shouldn't be so instantaneous over such isolated run-ins. Then we see extrapolation to condemning all religion and worse.

[Cerridwen]

4. "Oh, God, protect me from your followers"

When I was eight, I attended Catholic Mass with the family who lived across the street; my parents were both lapsed-Catholics. I was so gung-ho about church, my folks used to punish me by not allowing me to attend Mass.

The family's mother with whom I attended Mass, took me to see the church's priest so that I could make arrangements to attend Catechism so that I could receive Communion. I was denied access because my parents weren't "active members of the Church." My friend's mother explained it this way - "Your parents don't give money to the Church so they're not "active" members."

"Suffer the little children to come unto me"

Reminds me of "No child left behind."

[lil-petunia]

6. The church changed that to

leave no child's behind.

[Tyler Durden]

17. You mean leave no child's behind ALONE.

[Endangered Specie]

55. ouch, thats bad

:)

[LibLabUK]

7. Hmm..

"My friend's mother explained it this way - "Your parents don't give money to the Church so they're not "active" members.""

The American RC Church is wacky.

My dad was a catechist, he ran adult catechism classes and the parish never asked for one penny from the prospective Catholics.

[Cerridwen]

12. This priest also didn't ask for money

He just disallowed my participation in learning about my religion. You know, I would have paid, too. I did take my weekly offering when I attended Mass.

Aw well, I learned an early lesson about religion.

[Debi]

13. Strange...

And I'm sure different diocese are different. My husband and I are not married 'in the church' as we did not have our first marriages annulled. But my son is a Catholic 'in good standing' and can fully participate in mass even though his mom and dad cannot. (However, we give money to the Church, so maybe that's how he gets by...:evilgrin:

[DemBones DemBones]

24. You say your parents were lapsed Catholics, which means

they weren't active Catholics, which is a reason to think that they might have interfered with your attending catechism classes and/or prevented you from making your first Communion (and/or continuing to attend church afterwards.) Parents are supposed to be somewhat involved in children's preparation for their first confession and first Communion and, later, Confirmation, and it doesn't sound as if your parents would have done so. After all, they already used keeping you home from Mass as punishment -- possibly your friends knew this? Possibly the priest knew?

I don't entirely agree with the reasoning -- well, I tend to agree with the reasoning that parents' noninvolvement will negatively impact the child's faith development, but still think you and other children in that position should be allowed to make their first Communion even if they receive no parental support for their decision.

People always think money is the issue when they think they've been mistreated by the church , but many Catholics who attend church regularly -- and are considered active Catholics -- contribute little or no money.

[Cerridwen]

32. Good points. Thank you.

I appreciate another perspective.

My friend's mom knew, the priest did not. Mostly what I remember about Father what that he didn't seem to much care one way or the other. He's a Monsignor now, so I guess he cared about something and did good in other areas.

[mikeytherat]

9. I'm UMC (United Methodist Church)

and we offer gluten-free wafers to those who want an alternative to the bit o' bread host (our minister announces this before each communion). Alternative wafers already exist, so why are they making this an issue?

mikey_the_rat

[noonwitch]

20. I don't get why this is an issue, either

My church doesn't do communion (Unity), but I've attended UMC services in the past and grew up UCC. At the UCC, we had little squares of bread, until the new minister came to the church and baked his own loaf to use for people who wished to come forward for communion and dip it in the wine/welches grape juice, and kept the little squares of bread to pass among those who chose to remain seated. The UMC church I attended in college (it was a campus church, that had a ministry in conjunction with the UCC and the Presbytarian USA) had everyone come forward and you broke off a piece from the loaf and dipped it in the wine. I'm sure that at either church, some accomodation would have been arranged for someone who couldn't eat wheat.

I guess with the catholic church, the eucharist is everything. It's what they threaten to cut off to democratic catholics that support a pro-choice policy. I was told that catholics are suppposed to believe that the priest literally transforms the bread and wine into the body and blood of christ (transubstantiation). I think that is a major difference between catholic and protestant-protestants tend to believe communion is a symbolic ritual in which one commits to the ministry of Jesus. I've never taken communion at a catholic church-my mom always taught us that it was disrespectful for protestants to participate in catholic communion.

[DemBones DemBones]

28. It's an issue because the Catholic Church teaches

that the wine must be wine (not Welch's grape juice) and the bread must be a wafer containing wheat, made in a particular way. It's related to dietary laws of Judaism.

It's a serious problem for Catholics with celiac disease, like this young girl. Some priests are using gluten-free wafers for those who need them but some refuse. American bishops seem to be insisting that the wafer contain wheat. I don't think there has been an official ruling from the Vatican yet.

[TankLV]

90. nope. the bread doesn't have to be a stupid "wafer"

I'm catholic, our church has NEVER used a wafer - the priest's wife or the lady's guild bake bread which has ALWAYS been used for our communion - cut into little cubes and soaked in the wine in the challace.

As for the "must be wheat" - I don't know - but it CERTAINLY doesn't have to be a "wafer" and our priests have been married with children.

And as catholics, we have "over two thousand years of history on our side", too.

SOMEONE needs to educate themselves on the Church before they spout nonsense.

[muriel_volestrangler]

104. If your bread is leavened, it contradicts Catholic rules

http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/97ws/ws970703.htm

"With this understanding, we can now turn to the question regarding the use of leavened bread at Mass. Following Pope John Paul II’s "On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist" (1980), the Sacred Congregation for Sacraments and Divine Worship issued its "Instruction on Certain Norms Concerning the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery" (1980) with the intention of repeating and clarifying norms regarding the celebration of the Mass and the holy Eucharist. Sadly, after the liturgical reforms following the Second Vatican Council, abuses arose which had to be addressed. For instance, I heard from friends of their experience during a college campus Mass in the early 1970s when beer and pretzels were used by a "with it" campus chaplain to make the Mass relevant for college students; too bad the priest made the Mass irrelevant by being without Christ.

Regarding the matter of the holy Eucharist, the Sacred Congregation specifically stated, "Faithful to Christ’s example, the Church has constantly used bread and wine mixed with water to celebrate the Lord’s Supper. The bread for the celebration of the Eucharist, in accordance with the tradition of the whole Church, must be made solely of wheat, and, in accordance with the tradition proper to the Latin Church, it must be unleavened. ... No other ingredients are to be added to the wheaten flour and water. ... The wine for the Eucharistic celebration must be of ‘the fruit of the vine’ and be natural and genuine, that is to say not mixed with other substances"(No. 8). (These norms are repeated in Code of Canon Law. Nos. 924 and 926.)

Therefore, if a congregation decided to use leavened bread or add salt, honey, sugar, molasses or any over additive to the bread to be offered at Mass in the Latin Rite, the sacrament would be invalidated, meaning the Eucharist is not confected. To insure the validity of the sacrament as well as to alleviate the burden for a parish to provide its own unleavened hosts, over the years communities of religious sisters, especially cloistered ones, or commercial companies supply the unleavened hosts for parishes for use at Mass."

[TankLV]

105. Wrong.

We have none of the spices etc.

What you're telling me is my church, along with all the other ones, is wrong and you're right.

For over 2 thousand years.

SOMEONE needs to educate themselves a little more.

I'll trust my church, thank you.

We are a fully recognized & approved part of the Catholic Church in EVERYTHING we do.

So the pope and the church are now wrong?

Thanks for proving my point on the foolishness of all these secondary superstitions.

[muriel_volestrangler]

106. I'm just reporting what the Vatican's decision in 1980 was

By 'someone needs to educate themselves' you seem to mean the Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship, since it was they who said the bread must be unleavened.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (Including Adaptations for the Dioceses of the United States of America), 2003, says:

320. The bread for celebrating the Eucharist must be made only from wheat, must be recently baked, and, according to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, must be unleavened.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf

[TankLV]

121. Then you are still misinformed.

when you speak for the whole catholic church, which this document does not reflect.

I repeat. Our catholic church, which has been in existence since the beginning of the church, does if differently. The pope knows this. So does the rest of the Vatican. In fact, they recently had a 1,000 year anniversary of our church, complete with commendations from all over.

So, I think someone needs to CAREFULLY re-read the item referenced.

I've given plenty of clues in my posts, but so far, no one has picked up on it.

One has to be careful when speaking for/of what the "Catholic Church" does or does not require.

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. I and other posters were capitalising 'Catholic'

for which a standard meaning (including in dictionaries) is the Roman Catholic church. If you are nitpicking because your church also has the word 'catholic' in its title, then it's fairly irrelevant to the discussion about the girl's communion being held invalid.

Why did you think I was saying the pope was wrong?

[Baltimoreboy]

67. Because yours and ours aren't the same

Catholics believe it IS the body of Christ. I'm sorry for the child, but why should we change 2,000 year tradition for her?

[colorado_ufo]

68. Jesus was just one man -

but he changed the Jewish traditions of many millennia. The words and actions of Jesus, in the New Testament, present a Jesus who would have been the last one to deny this child communion due to the grain content of a wafer!

He, who let His Disciples pick corn on the Sabbath to assuage their hunger; who healed the sick on the Sabbath; who denied that the blind man's eyes - which He opened - were closed due to the sins of the man's parents (a tradition); who spoke with the Samaritan woman by the well; who ate with sinners and tax collectors; who rebuked his disciples and specifically called for children to be brought to Him. He, who gave parable after parable extolling tolerance and condemning hypocrisy!

Any religious faith that puts such minor considerations ahead of their concern for even one believer's life and soul and happiness has lost sight of what is truly important and is acting on Ego alone.

And yes, this one girl's problem IS that important. On her deathbed, will she have to choose whether or not to take communion, and likely hasten her death, or go to her grave with a troubled conscience?

What we all need is a lot more love and a lot less "tradition."

[Baltimoreboy]

69. I'd like to see some of that love directed at Christianity

And Catholicism in particular. If the girl wants to be Catholic, then she will understand her limitation. If she doesn't, then it doesn't matter.

[SidDithers]

70. I guess that choice is being made for her, eh? nt

Sid

[Baltimoreboy]

72. No, she has the choice

But she shouldn't expect the church to change its beliefs to accommodate her, now should she.

[TeacherCreature]

76. This is what "the Catholics" believe

that communion wafers must be made of wheat and that is more important than the health of a child seeking God?

[Baltimoreboy]

79. Religious belief doesn't just change for convenience

Sorry, but that's the way things go.

[SidDithers]

94. As I said below, then

It's hard enough being a kid with celiac disease. Glad I don't also have to tell her that Jesus doesn't love her as much as the other kids.

Sid

[lolly]

114. "Convenience?"

Avoiding a health-threatening allergy is now a "convenience?"

[TeacherCreature]

75. You have got to be the worst spokesperson for Cathlics and Christians

on this board. If she wants to be a Catholic she has to understand you limitations.
There is a big world of Christians beyond the RCC. I hope this child finds a church that will treat her the way Jesus would.

[annabanana]

92. By their fruits shall ye know them........

[colorado_ufo]

98. That love is directed toward Catholics, including you -

Catholicsim is an organized set of beliefs, not a human being, and thus is incapable of receiving, feeling, or reciprocating love.

I don't believe you understood my post. I am not anti-Catholic.

[gatlingforme]

103. Don't you mean you want all that love directed at you?

[TeacherCreature]

74. "I am sorry for the child...but she can just go to hell"

Obviously any child seeking Jesus should not bother with the catholic church.
I am sure if she came to my church we would welcome her and make sure she had gluten free communion wafers or bread.

[Baltimoreboy]

80. Welcome away

And I hope she is happy in your church. In the meantime, don't expect my church to change a couple thousand years of belief simply because it is convenient for her.

[SidDithers]

96. Ummm, convenientt?

Celiac disease is a genetic anomoly, not a choice.

Perhaps you're right, the church shouldn't change. And perhaps the caring and compassionate members should just stop going. Leave Catholicism to the rigid ideologues who believe that the world hasn't changed in the last 2000 years.

Sid

[TankLV]

91. Ahhh - he's baaaaaaaak!

And as intollerant and bigoted as ever, I see!

[MARALE]

11. Wow

My friend has a boy who is allergic to many things like wheat and corn. I will have to send her this link. Her father gives a lot of money to the church so exceptions will probably be made for him.

[newscaster]

I am Jewish

and if you know anything about Judaism, you know there are lots of rules about what you can or cannot do or eat. But in cases where a medical condition is present, the rules are automatically suspended. You don't have to check with a Rabbi or anyone else. The health of the person is more important.

This is not a difficult concept and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand it.

[eyesroll]

19. In fact, there are some instances in which breaking dietary laws

is a moral obligation.

If it's a choice between eating pork and starving to death, you eat the pork, because preservation of life takes presedence above all other things. If you're sick or pregnant, you don't fast on Yom Kippur, and you keep Passover to the best of your ability -- which can mean not at all, if a doctor or your better judgement says don't do it.

Same with working on the Sabbath -- if you're the head of the transplant team, you go in on Saturday if that's when the call comes.

Same with abortion -- if continuing the pregnancy will kill you or severly endanger your health, you're morally obligated to terminate it, because the life that is takes presedence over the life that could be. Even after the first trimester...

I grew up Jewish, and one of the things I appreciate about Judaism is that the rules don't trump everything else.

[Cassandra]

99. That's what I like about Judaism, as well...

that you're allowed to be a human being because being a human being means that you sometimes need an exception to the rules. I think the lack of a priest class and a strong central authority contributes to this flexibility.

[Violet_Crumble]

109. If I was shopping round for a religion...

Which I'm not, what with me being an atheist and all, but if I were, Judaism would be my pick of the bunch. The flexibility due to a lack of an unbending, out of touch hierarchy is one of the reasons, and also to my religiously uneducated eyes, Judaism doesn't do the whole Women Who Have Abortions Are Sinners!!! crap that other religions do...

I'm lazy and rolling a few posts into one, so this last bit isn't aimed at you, but at someone else who's been busily posting in this thread trying to make out that celiacs is merely an inconvenience and defending the Church in refusing Communion using a safer alternative. Celiacs is not some little inconvenience in peoples lives. It's a serious disorder. Who gives a shit about 2000 years of tradition when peoples lives and health are at stake? Celiacs wasn't something the Church knew about back then. The Church needs to change. Isn't the whole point of Communion a symbolic thing? How does that symbolism change if a Celiac is given a host that isn't going to make them sick? I could understand a devout Catholic defending the decision not to give Communion, but what I don't understand is someone doing that and also labelling anyone who quite rightly thinks the rule needs to be changed as a *Catholic-basher*. Telling Catholics with medical disorders like Celiacs that they're welcome to go and find another religion to cater to them is completely intolerant, as far as I'm concerned...

Violet...

[Cassandra]

116. I'll be picking up my jaw about the time...

you're waking up in the morning on the other side of the world. We agree on a couple of things. The celiac-basher is indeed one of the least appealing ambassadors of Catholicism I've heard from in a while.
The flexibility of Judaism is in short supply among Hasidim in large part because they do have a strong central authority, namely the rebbe of each main group. Fundamentalists seem to crave having someone tell them what to do. As far as I know, Reform and Conservative congregations pick their own rabbis. I don't know about Modern Orthodox.

[LibLabUK]

34. Same in Catholicism

"But in cases where a medical condition is present, the rules are automatically suspended."

Yup.. you don't fast if you're sick.

But recieving a sacrament isn't the same as being allowed to eat pork.

If you're too sick to recieve communion you recieve a blessing.

I've recieved communion in hospital many many times, and at times when I was nil-by-mouth I recieved a blessing.

[lolly]

115. True

Even the rule for circumcision is suspended in the case of families with a history of hemophilia (in ancient times, of course, they didn't have genetic testing for it, but if couples had already lost sons to the bleeding disorder, they were not required to circumcise future sons)

[allemand]

14. I wonder if the church is ever going to understand this:

And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him. 12.11 He said to them, "What man of you, if he has one sheep and it falls into a pit on the sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12.12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."

Mt. 12.11-13

[Inland]

21. I have a solution...

Have God through the miracle of transubtantiation turn the rice into wheat. It will be wheat, but with all the outward characteristics of wheat. Catholics will know what I am talking about.

[napi21]

25. Ya know, I'm Catholic, and I still trust my faith, but I don't want this

foolishness involved in politics & campaigns as much as I don't want the evangelicals, Jews, Muslums, or any other faith involved!

I don't know about this silliness about wheat flour. They must be made from wheat flour, but I'm 60 yrs old, and have never heard this complaint before. Strange what hits the news these days!

I say keep all churches out of politics or take their tax exempt status away.

[MaineDem]

27. Must they?

I remember in high school (in a convent) we used to visit the bakery where the nuns made the hosts. I vaguely remember non-gluten hosts being made.

Is it really a canon law that the hosts must be made from wheat?

[napi21]

30. I actually checked. Please see this link.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01349d.htm

[MaineDem]

38. I see

I looked up altar wine and it said to be valid it must be fermented.

I know for a fact that plain grape juice is used, especially in the case of alcoholic priests. It seems the encyclopedia hasn't been updated for this contingency. Maybe the requirement of gluten flour has also been superceded.

I'm not arguing with you, per se. I just think the Church makes rules to suit and changes them (or not) as needed.

[benburch]

42. Must be fermented, yes...

BUT it can have the alcohol removed after fermenting and it is still wine. Or so I was told long ago. And you can get such alcohol free wines commercially.

Also, long ago when I was a catholic, the priest didn't seem to have a problem with using a loaf of leavened dark rye bread for the sacrament, so I am pretty sure that this rule is relaxed in at least some places. Another example being the "irregular" priests that were ordained behind the iron curtain. These men were often married, and would use regular bread for the communion because to do otherwise would have put them and their congregations in danger of detection.

[gauguin57]

26. A special needs child in my family

was denied catechism (Sunday school) in the early '80s because there were only a couple of other special-needs kids in the parish, and the priests couldn't figure out how to deal with him ("lessee, we can't put him in a "normal" catechism class, and we don't have enough special-needs kids to create a "special" catechism class, so, gee, what do we do?"). His mother had to make a major stink before the pastor would do anything.

At the time, I was so pissed: Soooo ... you're not allowed to have an abortion, but if you have a child with a problem, we're not going to do one damned thing to help you.

Neither the parents nor the child (now an adult) are Catholic anymore! And, PRAISE GOD, neither am I!

Give the child the gluten-free wafer, for God's sake!

[Ready4Change]

29. Holy Jesus on a Cracker! The Communion Host is SYMBOLIC!

The Catholic Church says this every single day! Symbolic! Jesus did NOT say "Take this whole wheat bread..."

I'm not a die hard christian, but even I know that communion is symbolic of the body and blood of Christ. Since it is symbolic it doesn't really MATTER what the substances are, so long as their meaning is kept in ones mind and heart. About the most hard core position I can think of that could be taken on literal terms is that one should partake of a solid and a liquid substance. But I could argue even that, so long as the symbolism is represented.

Chewing gum and Coke. Oreos and Milk. Caviar and Dom Perignon. All should be fine so long as you have Christs body, blood, and meaning in mind.

If someone is going to argue that things should be so literal that the wafer can only be wheat, then they better have God literally sit in a chair across from me to explain it. Otherwise I'm jsut not buying it.

[Book Lover]

48. Not for Roman Catholics

The RC church teaches that at the moment of transubstantiation during the Mass, the host becomes the body of Christ, no symbolism involved. I am not arguing that what this particular bishop says is morally correct, but thems the rules.

[TahitiNut]

58. "Transsubstantiation" vs. "Cosubstantiation" was part of the

... Protestant Reformation. Roman catholic dogma still affirms "transsubstantiation." IOW, it ain't wheat anymore.

[Ready4Change]

59. So wheat can be transubstantiated, but not RICE?

Somehow priests are able to convert wheat crackers into the body of Christ, but rice crackers won't work? Why not? Do they become the body of Buddha or Confucious or something? :)

Sorry to sound flippant, but this is one of those issues that reminds me of corporate decisions that come out of committee rooms. Just plain wierd.

[TahitiNut]

64. Nope. Condosleazy RICE is hopeless.

[TankLV]

93. They were out with the "boys" when that part of thecooking class

was brought up.

[fjc]

31. I guess transsubstantiation doesn't work with rice.

[kodi]

46. you're going to hell for that.

i'm just mad you posted it first.

[tokenlib]

36. And Jesus wept....

Stupid, ignorant,shameful, and very wrong.

[Ready4Change]

60. That's my impression.

It sounds like a bunch of literalists who missed the point entirely.

More and more, I worship so much that is contained in "The Life of Brian." Maybe Jesus can watch it with me and cheer himself up.

[mom cat]

66. My thought too. Well, let them perform their empty rituals in empty

churches. Let the institution fail so the keepers of the spirit of love and justice rise again. OMG...I guess I still have some faith left. :shrug:

[bleedingheart]

37. She has the option of drinking the wine instead of the host

so there was a way out for her.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_11_38/ai_82479231

My son and I don't drink the wine but we eat the host.

There is no rule saying you must do both. So the young gal could receive communion through the wine.

The article above shows that the Europeans have a option of a low/non-gluten host...US Bishops have stated they won't do that..based on the wine option.

[impe]

118. No Rule for Both?

The Last Supper involved both bread and wine and it wasn't presented by Christ as an either or option. It wasn't a buffet! I'm amazed how doctrine is circumvented. I noticed how no one wants to drink out of the same cup in the Catholic Church so I guess this is why the Church came up with the waiver for the cup. Seems like they could do the same for this little girl over wheat.

Protestant churches use individual little cups so this isn't a problem. If I thought the cup had been turned by the priests into Christ's blood, I shouldn't have any problems with thinking it's hygenic as well.

[Kolesar]

39. she did receive the sacrament of skepticism in the process

:evilgrin:

[flamingyouth]

40. I'm surprised this hasn't come up before

Tons of people are gluten-intolerant.

Apparently this doofus is just plain intolerant.:eyes:

[allemand]

41. Still Pharisees after 2000 years n/t

[zbdent]

43. TIMMY!!!!

Timmy?

[arcane1]

44. in that case, God is an asshole

for creating her gluten intolerant in the first place, he knowingly let her be born with no way to get to heaven :eyes:

what a prick

[jimbot]

45. We have a similar issue with the Orthodox church that was resolved.

We are Greek Orthodox and the children take Communion after baptism (often given around 6 mos of age). Our daughter is very allergic to wheat, corn, peanuts, soy, dairy, etc. Since they take Communion at a much earlier age, there have been many cases of wheat or gluten allergic children (often children outgrow food allergies by the time they hit school age) in the Orthodox communities. The solution for us was simple...either take the wine only, or allow her to take a miniscule (i.e., about the size of a grain of sand) portion of the bread with the wine. We opted for the wine only and we don't get to church that often but it hasn't been a problem the times we go. I'm guessing since Catholic kids take Communion much later most of them have outgrown any gluten allergies (except the kids with Celiac) so it is probably less known. My guess is that they will ultimately come up with the same solution.

--JT

[knitter4democracy]

63. Hey, fellow Orthodox!

I was wondering what we do to, frankly. I don't see one of our bishops being okay with switching, but what if we made prosforo with gluten-free flour and stuff? I should ask my spiritual father to look into it. BTW, are you in Bangor, Maine? My spiritual father is Fr. Stylianos Muksuris, and he covered that church for a bit.

We're in the Russian church now, but I'm curious about what if we make a separate loaf for communion.

[CO Liberal]

49. Can't Eat Wheat??? Go to Hell!!!!

Stories like this are why I'm an ex-Catholic.

[jackieforthedems]

50. I'm Having A Hard Time Myself Hanging On

I was raised in the Catholic religion, and still attend church service in a Catholic parish, yet I'm having a hard time hanging on myself as far as staying a Catholic is concerned. On one hand, the Mass is very nice, like alot of their beliefs, but on the other hand, we had to advocate so that our now 10 year old disabled son could receive Holy Communion, and I often wonder where the Catholic thought train is coming from ( the Church, not the parishioners, I mean ). The child molestation stuff and how some of the various churches throughout the U.S. are filing for bankruptcy over the accusations - it just doesn't go over well with me. It bothers me how one church believes and enforces certain things, while another does something strictly by the book, and then another may or may not bend the rules. I remain around because it's the only church I am familiar with and I like to attend church in a church ( someplace other than home ), but all of this hypocritical stuff has me gagging. When one of my son's fellow classmates passed away a few years back, the priest at his wake said something to the effect of: "Well, it's just as well because little Philip didn't belong in this world anyway. He couldn't be productive," and etc... Sorry, but my son has done more than his share to help the medical industry. He has had 7 surgeries in his 10 years on this planet - keeping his 10+ doctors and specialists busy, keeps the money rolling in for his pharmacy and medical supply company, not to mention a shuttle service which sometimes transports him to his appointments, helps keep them employed over at the Dept. of Human and Social Services, school profits from having him in their program, etc... While he himself may never grow up to be the President of the United States someday, he is contributing plenty while he exists on this earth. It sickens me how the Church thinks sometimes. They definitely aren't always getting/understanding what is supposed to be their own message that Jesus tried to teach them - love one another, help one another, etc...












' :puke:

[TeacherCreature]

77. Presbyterian USA, United Methodist, Congregationalist, United Church

of Christ, these are all non fundy churches you might want to visit and try out.
It might seem wierd at first because the service will be different. The structure is not top down authority. All of those churches hire and fire their own Ministers and Pastors. They vote on policy through their local representatives. In general you will not hear anymore homilies about the poor aborted babies and the evils of homosexuality.
You will hear a LOT about a loving inclusive God.

[The Zanti Regent]

83. Wanna bet on that?

Here in Los Angeles, the overwhelming majority of churches are right wing cogs in the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson GOP machine. I really don't want to waste Sundays hearing Republican bullshit uttered from the pulpit. I'll sleep instead!

[jackieforthedems]

107. Thanks

I will surely consider the churches you've mentioned. The message I get from reading the Bible is that our God is a forgiving one, etc... It's not that I'm for abortion ( because personally, I'm not ), but when I weigh what is going on in the world right now, I'm more afraid of what things will be like with another 4 years of Bush, then to take my chances on the abortion issue and go with Kerry. My vote can't be based on one issue. Thanks again!:hi:

[SidDithers]

54. My 6 year old daughter has celiac disease....

It's traumatic enough for a kid to be "different". Group activites are a nightmare. She can't eat the pizza and cake at classmates birthday parties. Snacks at soccer games are chancy - some popsicles are OK, some aren't. Fruit is fine, but we're never 100% sure that it hasn't been contaminated if there were crumbs on the cutting board when it was prepared.

I'm glad we're not Catholic. She misses out on enough without me having to explain that Jesus doesn't love her as much as the other kids.

Sid

Edit: Interesting, I posted this story in GD this morning, and got 0 responses. Glad to see it got picked up here :)

[Endangered Specie]

57. Our Catholic Clergy friends, never. cease. to. amaze. me.

[Chovexani]

65. The very definition of legalism

I'm at a loss for words.

[Matilda]

71. I thought the important thing was that the bread be unleavened,

i.e. no yeast. It's supposed to replicate the Jewish passover bread,
so if they don't have a problem with wheat-free bread, why do we?

Whatever happened to the concept of Christian charity?

[Baltimoreboy]

73. Whatever happened to the concept of freedom of religion?

So many people here at DU want to tell the Catholic Church how to run its religion. For those who aren't Catholic, tough. For those who are, if you really can't stand it, the world has other options.

[bleedingheart]

78. This girl had other options within the church

I posted this above but clearly no one reads sometimes.

She could drink a sip of the wine. There is no need to eat the host.

Clearly her mother wants to make a big deal out of this, but the sad fact is that her daughter has a condition that she will have to adjust her lifestyle to accomodate. I feel for her as a mother but I think that in this particular case it is overkill...people at most go to Sunday mass 52 times a year and eating the host isn't necessary to be a good catholic...

[Baltimoreboy]

81. This is just another excuse for Catholic bashing

Which is common on this board.

[SidDithers]

100. If the shoe fits....nt.

Sid

[annabanana]

89. true this....

She might look at the liberal Episcopal church. It's Apostolic, and believes in transubstantiation and is less hidebound and more forgiving. There are even some "High Church" congregations that use latin in the mass.

[Matilda]

113. The real question is: Would Christ refuse her an option?

Would he deny her the opportunity or the means to receive him?

I don't think so.

There is sometimes too much adherence to the letter of the law rather
than the spirit.

[Matilda]

112. I am a Catholic, and I go to Mass regularly.

But sometimes I can't recognise Christ and his teachings in the
Church hierarchy.

[Tellurian]

82. Nutty, absolutely nutty.... All man made Rules! nt

[Baltimoreboy]

84. If you don't like them

You don't have to abide by them. Just don't expect others to automatically agree with you.

[Tellurian]

101. I'm entitled to an opinion..

just like everyone else..if you don't like it..

who cares?

[goforit]

87. The policies of Opus Dei.......................totally RUTHLESS!!!!

[Baltimoreboy]

88. Thanks for the exaggeration

To expect the church to change 2,000 years of tradition to accommodate one person is downright silly.

Have fun with the Catholics are evil thread. I'm off for the weekend.

[colorado_ufo]

97. Actually, the answer is quite simple -

the Holy See just needs to give her special dispensation. If the Pope grants anything, it is then all right, according to the infallibility granted him by Roman Catholic believers.

[October]

110. I'm appalled

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2208882&mesg_id=2213549

There's another discussion on this.

Again, there will be those saying "If you don't like the rules...leave." Very compassionate. /sarcasm

If you happen to be a woman -- or a woman with 2 kids and a husband all with CD, the church is all but chasing you away.

[despairing optimist]

111. Would Jesus go macrobiotic?

Future theologians may debate this point and, in a few centuries, the church hierarchy may allow a non-wheat solution. Until then, those with allergies will have to offer up their suffering to the Holy Spirit.

Silly stuff. What fools these mortals be!

[scottxyz]

117. WWMTD? (What Would Mother Teresa Do?)

"I have seen them {at Mother Teresa's hospices} give the steroid Prednisolone instead of paracetamol, because both start with the letter 'p'. Whenever I yell at them and accuse them of murdering the patients they simply smile and tell me that it is all in God's hands."

-- Tracey Leonard, Catholic volunteer at one of Mother Teresa's Calcutta hospices

http://www.meteorbooks.com/chap7.html

= = =

I guess the good saint would say, "Eat the wheat wafer, my child. It is all in God's hands."

[St. Jarvitude]

119. Outside of North America, several Catholic diocese use alternate hosts.

I can't remember the specifics, but I do remember a homily from a year ago where the priest mentioned something about how Catholics administer alternate hosts (made from rice, etc) in areas which simply do not have any wheat. I remember my brother joking in the pew about how they must use penguins as hosts in Antarctica.

I think this is just an instance of one fucked up archdiocese. There are much bigger problems with the Catholic Church in general (sex abuse coverups going all the way up to the Pope, for example) that are more pressing than this.