MoveOn Ads Okay; Swift Boat Ads Not Okay, Kerry Campaign Says

[Nambe]

(CNSNews.com)

... on Friday, a spokeswoman for the Kerry campaign backed away from the suggestion. She said what MoveOn.org is doing is perfectly fine, while what the Swift Boat Veterans are doing is "dishonest" and "dishonorable."

Debra Deshong of the Kerry campaign told Fox News there's a difference between MoveOn.org and Swift Boat Veterans for Truth: "MoveOn.org is an independent organization that existed well before the Kerry campaign," she said, whereas Swift Boat Veterans for Truth "is not an independent group."

Deshong invoked Friday's New York Times article as proof: "And in today's New York Times, it details exactly all the ties this group (Swift Boat Veterans for Truth) has to the Bush White House."

Deshong condemned Bush for not telling Swift Boat Veterans for Truth to stop running their ad. (Swift Boats say it wouldn't matter what Bush said -- see related story)

"Again, we (the Kerry campaign) have nothing to do with these independent ads, like MoveOn.org. That is an independent organization that existed well before the Kerry campaign. They have every right to be running what they are under the campaign finance laws." According to Deshong, "This is about the Swift Boat Vets that are running dishonorable ads that Bush refuses to condemn." ..

Ride Don’t Drive * * It’s Global Cool

[yardwork]

1. I think she missed the larger point - the Swift Boat ads are LIES

Moveon.org ads and other political ads are not lies. F9/11 was not lies.

The Swift Boat ads deserve denouncing not because of some abstract political idea, but because they are telling LIES.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

7. Yes LIES and SMEAR CAMPAIGN

should be her focus.

[Kire]

35. DAMN LIES

[w13rd0]

2. Swiftslime for Bush..

...exists as a pro-Bush group, funded by Bush backers.

MoveOn is independent, and they'd be running the same type of ads were the nominee Wesley Clark, Dick Gephardt, Howard Dean or Howdy Doody. Furthermore, the Swiftslime are putting out ads that are irresponsible in the extreme. Even as severe as they are on Bush, the MoveOn ads don't come CLOSE to what the Bush supporters have done.

[cspiguy]

3. I believe MoveOn compares * to Hitler.

ANd F/911 accuses * of knowingly allowing 3000 (could have been 50K) innocents to die for oil. I'd say it's about even.

[snowFLAKE]

4. But both those things are true

You can't grasp the fundamental difference between Truth and Lies? And why one of them is acceptable and the other not?

[CatWoman]

5. I clicked on your response about 10 times

and backed away each time.

I just have to tell you that your words are dispicable, at best; idiotic, at worst.

[moran4change]

16. Well, now wait a minute...

cspiguy is cracking open the door on the bigger picture. It's not whether the Smearboat vets are lying - and we all know they are - the problem is that they have the platform in the fisrt place. Unfortunatly, thanks to BushCo, this is the way politics are done these days.

Rather than going after the Swiftboat Vets, go after their megaphone: bring down the idiot publishing house who peddles their book. Without the book, they're a bunch of fruitcakes with a website; it's their book that gives them exposure.

[Sterling]

25. I don't see how his post worked toward that end?

I am puzzled as to why you would think that. He basically just shat out a bunch of RW MEME's that only a Bushbot or total retard would believe on a site where this stuff has been adressed many tims over with the result being the opisite of what this poster is suggesting.

[nodictators]

45. It's the TV that gives them the exposure to millions

The Swift Boat Liars are all over TV.

Here is how Jim Lehrer gave O'Neill the run of PBS last night:

JIM LEHRER: Is it your position that what John Kerry did was special and abhorrent beyond the norm in terms of medals, in other words, that he personally and in some kind of craven way lied to get these decorations, unlike other people who followed different kinds of behavior?

JOHN O'NEILL: Absolutely <LIE>. In our unit, we never had anyone leave Vietnam short of having a major... being wounded in a serious way or dying <Really?>. He is the only one that we can find <yeah!>.

He left in about four months, much short of the twelve-month normal tour of duty that people serve <outright LIE, Kerry was on his second tour>. He did that on the basis of having three Purple Hearts. I debated him in the Cavot <sic> show attended by Mr. Oliphant.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec04/vietnam_8-19.html

Lehrer allowed NO rebuttal to O'Neill's lies, and instead went on to ask about stuff in the 70's.

[0rganism]

52. Go after Regnery? Nah, the TV is the problem.

Without the TV giving them free un-rebutted advertising time, their book would just sit on the shelf gathering dust. They'd be fruitcakes with a website and a book. Thanks to their TV ad and the ensuing media frenzy, they're popular celebrity fruitcakes with a website and a book.

[Lindacooks]

6. even??????????

EVEN???????????

Comparing opinions to flat out lies about actual historic events is hardly even. For God's sake, open your eyes.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

28. Prove that Germany did not wage aggressive war

Under prefabricated pretenses. Prove Hitler did not detain people withou due process. Prove that under Hitler the Germans toryured people in prison camps in occupied teritory?

I see the comparison as well. However the FACT still stands Move On did not make that claim. In fact the denounced it, which I thought was a mistake, but those are the facts, something the poster in question seems to value very little.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

9. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong

But MoveOn never released an ad comparing Bush to Hitler. That whole hubbub was about an ad that someone submitted to their website and was removed when people said that it was distasteful.

And Moore backs up all of his claims and allegations with FACT while the smear vets are spouting LIES (provable lies in many cases).

[Catfight]

18. I'd bet you every dime I had that whoever did submit that AD to MOVEON

was a big Republician who wanted to stir up this crap. The repugs are the worst, most VILE sort of sub-humans, they lack any morals and ethics.

[thebigidea]

22. that's my theory, considering that Bush/Cheney 2004 used it too

... which I don't think a Dem would allow.

I tried to figure out who the hell made that ad during the period when MoveOn was being bashed over it, but they wouldn't return any emails asking about it.

Perhaps they could've defused it if they tracked the guy down and asked why the hell he was letting it be used for Bush's campaign.

If he didn't want it used, it could've been taken down.

If he DID want it used by Bush, well - that would've made for a great story.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

47. really, I thought rational people made F9/11 a runaway hit

I suppose you can't be bothered to actually name ONE lie in the movie, could you? Hmmm?

And its cute to see you decry "rank partisan politics" and then leap into an impassioned plea on behalf of John O'Neill.

Your defense of the Swiftvets.com is no doubt appreciated by all the right people.

Keep up the good work, patriot. Godblessmerica, and God bless John O'Neill.

[Cocoa]

10. MoveOn denounced the Hitler ad

stop spreading the Right Wing smear about MoveOn and the Hitler ad.

Please.

[thebigidea]

11. Got any other warmed-over Hannity cliches for us?

Maybe you can work in the phrase "flipflop" in there somewhere.

[lcooksey]

12. MoveOn did not compare Bush to Hitler

Two ads that used Hitler imagery were submitted by people to a contest MoveOn was running. Both were disqualified from the contest by MoveOn. At no point did MoveOn run any advertisement comparing Bush to Hitler.

I saw F9/11 and I don't recall any indication that Bush knew an attack was coming and did nothing. Rather, the administration SHOULD have known some attack was coming, but they weren't paying attention to al Qaeda, they were paying attention to Iraq.

[TahitiNut]

14. It seems someone has been drinking the Kool-Aid.

(1) MoveOn.com never made any comparison between Busholini and Hitler, no matter how deservedly such a comparison might be made. When they were accepting ad submissions from the public, one such submission was made and garnered neither the approval nor the support of MoveOn.com. It was removed from their website and never approved or circulated.

(2) Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" never made the accusation that DimSon "knowingly" allowed 9/11 to occur, even though such an inference is reasonable and rational. "Fahrenheit 9/11" accurately, appropriately, and relevantly noted the long-term and extensive ties between the Busholini Cabal and the Saudis and bin Ladens, noted the slothful, self-serving reaction of DimSon to the events of 9/11, and noted the petrochemical corporate interests. Just because any rational viewer might infer such a conclusion for a recitation of the facts does not mean Moore made such an allegation, let alone such an inference. Stop blaming Moore for what the facts lead one to infer.

[The Magistrate]

19. That Is False, Sir

Move On sponsored a "make a commercial for us contest" open to the public, with all entries briefly available collectively on their site. Some person, very foolishly, made and submitted an entry making that comparison. Needless to say, it was not the winner of the contest, nor was it endorsed or in any way adopted by Move On.

Nowhere in Farenheit 911 is the allegation made that the current administration knowloingly allowed the attacks of that September to proceed. The film does, quite accurately, score the administration for its incompetence in dealing with the threat of al Queda: the administration did in fact display a negligence of titanic proportion in that matter.

"It ain'y what you know, it's what you know that ain't so."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[murielm99]

23. MoveOn did NOT compare * to Hitler!

Someone submitted an ad to them that did that.

They pulled it right away.

And have you actually seen F/9/11? Where does that accusation take place? Can you tell me that?

[Sterling]

24. You need to read a bit more.

First of all Move On never made that comparison. They never ran an ad that did make it. Some one who entered their Bush in 30 seconds made an ad that compaired Bush to Hitler. Move On actually denounced it and it did not win any award in the contest.

So you are spreading lies like Bush is. Proud of yourself?

I won't even bother trying to get you into an honest discussion of f-911. I am sure it would be a big waste of everyones time as you prefer to believe RW talking points about the Movie rather than what is actually in it. I doubt you have even seen the movie.

[Joanne98]

50. It's amazing how this moveon called Bush Hitler lie.......

is still alive. it doesn't help when our democratic leadership keeps apologizing on Hannity and Colmes for something that didn't even happen.

[yardwork]

34. Wrong. Wrong on both counts

Have you even seen the moveon.org ads or Fahrenheit 9/11?

There is no moveon.org ad that compares Bush to Hitler. Totally false.

Nowhere in F9/11 does it say that BushCo knowingly allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place. In fact, Moore bent over backwards to avoid saying that.

You are misinformed.

[kohodog]

42. MoveOn has not compared Bush to Hitler

Ad ad was submitted to their contest last year thathad that comparison and they renmoved it pretty quickly.

F911 is a movie and is not being piped into peoples living rooms like the Swift boat ads. No way it is even.

The Bush AWOL ad by Moveon was run for one day and Kerry asked them to pull it which they did. Bush will not renounce the Swift boat ads because he wants them to continue running even though they are full of outright lies. See the front page of today's New York Times.

http://nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html

[Rose Siding]

44. Karl Rove compared Bush to Hitler

When Bush threw the pitch at the Yankee game after 911, Rove said it reminded him of a Nazi rally.

There was a submission to an ad contest that made a Bush/Hitler comparison. MoveOn never "released" it and removed it from the site at the first sign of offense.

[benfranklin1776]

53. Let's not also forget the BUSH CAMPAIGN AD

.....which compared Democrats to Hitler. http://slate.msn.com/id/2103033/ Big difference in a private contestant submitting an entry which MoveOn.Org promptly removed and an official BUSH campaign commerical which deliberately splices images of Hitler and prominent Democrats together.

[w13rd0]

54. F*cking Bullshit.

MoveOn put out NO AD comparing Bush to Hitler, that was an ad submission to a contest ANYONE COULD ENTER. Try informing yourself a bit better.

And F911 says NO SUCH THING. Tell us WHERE Moore says that in F911.

Please, you people need new talking points. Can man live on a diet of kool-aid and shit? How do freeptards keep themselves alive with so little oxygen flow to the brain?

[Sterling]

13. Truth=OK Lies=Rep standard op

That is the issue. Truth. Nothing more, nothing less. As long as the ads are truthful I have no problem with either side running as many as they like.

[thebigidea]

15. sometimes I think we need to get all LBJ on em

When LBJ was down doubledigits in the polls with days to go in the election, they spread rumors that his opponent fucked pigs.

"Well, I know it ain't true," LBJ allowed. "I just want to make the sonofabitch deny it."

He won the election. Here endeth the lesson.

Sadly, we don't even need to lie about Bush... telling the truth about him is apparently seen as "negative," though. This may just be Joe Lieberman's opinion, though.

But when friggin' Rove is the one pulling the pigfucker gambit, you'd think we'd dispense with the dainty manners and tell the plain truth about this monkeyfaced monster.

[Surface Map]

17. yea but

Kerry needs to start kicking and screaming and show some emotion that he is pissed. He also needs to file a lawsuit for lible and prove in a court of law that the book is full of lies. I know the lawsuit won't be over with by the election but it will make it appear that he is going to prove his point and at the end of the day he can remove this as a percieved character flaw.

He needs to go on the offensive and not fight defensively if it isn't to late.

[Sterling]

20. The suit wont be over by Nov. but an injunction

Would send a clear signal the book is not to be taken seriously. It would keep the book from being released as a work of non fiction. It would be funny is they had to release it as fiction. If Kerry sues that is about the only way they could release the book.

[thebigidea]

21. risky, though... legal moves would make for endless press

the Franken Effect would kick in, it'd sell more copies and FOX/MSNBC/CNN would breathlessly babble about it day after day.

Tweety would take a manic U-turn and start spitting: "What is John Kerry scared about? Maybe there's some truth to some of their charges if he's so keen on getting it off the market... I didn't read the book, but maybe I should now!"

They need to get off defense and ATTACK these people mercilessly on every front.

Rekindle the AWOL charges despite what Kerry says, too.

[karnac]

26. free book may be the greatest problem

At the moment the liar vets are SLOOOOOWLY giving away their book. So far two entire chapters. On PDF files.

One of the problem we might face is if they *cant* sell the book fast enough, they may just give it away. it actually might be in more hands if they are NOT allowed to sell the book.

A free book is something you can't stop or control.

Karnac

[thebigidea]

27. of course they have to give it away, its fucking garbage

I'm not concerned with access to their idiocy, let the slackjawed morons eat that crap up with a spoon. Nobody wants to "ban" it, despite what Matt Drudge would like us to think.

But they should be confronted every step of the way and firmly id-ed as lying shills for Bush, laughed off the stage and reduced to tears.

A creature of Chuck freakin' Colson, for chrissakes. What a pedigree...

Kerry needs to do to O'Neill what he did to him on Dick Cavett all those years ago - and just like that incident, make O'Neill a blubbering bitter wreck for the rest of his miserable days.

Can you imagine bein' old O'Neill during a Kerry presidency? My god, it would straight out of Dante's Inferno and wonderful justice.

I predict suicide or massive liver failure on his horizon.

[Sterling]

29. I dont think it would work that way in this case.

If in fact Kerry is telling the truth this is an opportunity to show how the RW works. It is an opportunity to prove that Kerry is honest and Bush will lie about anything.

I can’t see the advantage to not calling this on the pukes unless Kerry really is a Maj. McBrag like the swiftboat white power patrol says he is.

The clear difference is that the facts favor Kerry in this case and if he can't use the truth about his war record to help him win in Nov. he's in a real tough spot.

[thebigidea]

30. Actually, one of Kerry's shipmates could do it.

Rassmann or someone else who has been lied about... this way its not Kerry trying to crush the oh-so-sympathetic white power patrol (killer coinage, by the way)

If Rove wants to play with proxies, by all means...

Make 'em reprint the book, waste time and money...

But the lies do need to be confronted headon, waiting several weeks was an incredible blunder. This is why they need to have us locked in a studio somewhere, cranking out ads.

[diablerie]

31. Jumpin Jesus

No matter how many wish it to be true...

KERRY IS NOT A TRAITOR AND BUSH IS NOT HITLER!

How about someone stepping forward to take the 527's out of play.

This way any candidate that wants to spread half truths and lies are DIRECTLY tied to the ad, book, article etc.

This can't be that hard people....Accountability, what a concept.

This 527 debacle is akin to breaking wind in front of house company and blaiming it on the dog.:headbang:

[thebigidea]

32. no matter how you may wish it to be true - MoveOn never called Bush Hitler

now stop spreading that disingenuous bit of nonsense.

I might have, though... and I approve this message.



Why you'd want to take MoveOn "out of play" baffles me. Maybe you can explain, huh?

MoveOn is not tied to Kerry, they were in existence long before he was and will continue to be around long after him, i'd wager.

Nor are they just a 527, their Voter Fund is. But they also have a PAC and a 501(c)(4) - are you saying you want to ban PACs as well?

[RossMcLochNess]

I'll take a stab...

Personally, I also think that ALL 527s should be done away with. There is no other way to prevent groups like the Swift Boat Vets from existing. They are free to say and air whatever they want. The only way to stop this is by eliminating the 527s. As for PACs, I totally agree that they should stay but the concept that any Democrat or rePub 527 group is operating in a vacuum is pretty naive. MoveOn as well as the Swift Boat Vets are both tied into the respective campaigns. The connections are just covered up to the point where they will never be exposed. Take the Swift Boat Vets for example, sure there are ties to the Bush Campaign. They are just done on the up and up to keep it legal. Therefore, there is nothing we can do about them other than refute their "facts" but the damage is already done by the time you can refute. We need to prevent this crap from airing in the first place and the only way I think it can be done is by eliminating all 527s. Just my .02 though.

[thebigidea]

38. So the Kerry campaign travelled back in time to create MoveOn

... during the Clinton years?

Or was Kerry so cunning, he formed MoveOn OSTENSIBLY as a response to RW attacks on Clinton while actually intending it to be his pawn when he ran for President many years later?

Of course MoveOn wants Kerry elected, but they would be begging for trouble if they took their marching orders from the Kerry camp.

[RossMcLochNess]

39. Huh?

I said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Kerry forming MoveOn. Not even close. Maybe you mis-read my post. I said that its naive to believe that the campaigns have no contact whatsoever with the 527 groups that support them. Thats it. End of story. Anything else is fabricated in your mind. Anyhow, my point was that the only way we can prevent more groups like the Swift Boat Vets from forming is to eliminate the 527s. So far in this campaign, the existence of 527s has harmed Kerry more than they've helped him. The MoveOn ads and the like aren't anything that the Kerry campaign couldn't have put out themselves.

[thebigidea]

40. well, burst my bubble of naivete and show us the connections

If you could, Rove would've by now and we never would've heard the end of it.

Because I'm not buying this Scotty McClellan line of hooha about dismantling all 527s. Gee, I wonder WHY the White House Press Sec would WANT that.

Gosh.

The Swift Boat Suckers LIE, they can be discredited on that alone.

Where does MoveOn lie?

Are you saying they are equivalent?

[RossMcLochNess]

41. One last time...

If you want to think that 527 groups come up with everything on their own and don't take the "party's" thoughts and concerns into consideration, go ahead. I'm choosing to think that they do and that there is much informal, legal dialog. This is something that can't be proved or discredited by either you or me so there's no reason to argue this point. Next topic: again, you did not read my post. I was NOT attacking MoveOn nor did I say that they lied. Hell, I didn't even come close to inferring it! You flat out made that up in your head. I never came close to addressing equivalency other than by stating that the Voter Fund of MoveOn and the Swift Boat Vets are both 527s. Thats it. Anything else you inferred is your doing, not mine. And I'll state my point again that because they are both 527s, I feel that unfortunately, they both must go. We can't have our cake and eat it too. We can't say "Keep the 527s that help us but get rid of the ones against us". In this campaign, had 527s never been brought into existence, Kerry would be no worse off and probably better off. The whole Swift Boat Vets fiasco wouldn't be an issue. And this is probably just the beginning of these Republican attack groups. They will keep coming. How do we stop them? There's only one way, like it or not, and thats to eliminate 527s. If you have a better solution, I'd like to hear it. But please don't say that we can just discredit anything that comes up. The problem with that is that the average American hears the claims on the news but a mush smaller number hears the rebuttal on political shows. Many never even hear the rebuttals at all. So this method just won't work. I'll check back later. Its my birthday and I'm heading out for the night.

[thebigidea]

43. despite your using "please," that's exactly my response

Discredit and strike back even harder. There will always be ways of getting around whatever constraints that are imposed, and at the end of the day - charges must be refuted no matter who they come from.

Be it John O'Neill or Dick Cheney.

I don't want to get rid of Swiftvets.com, I want to ridicule them.

Swiftvets will dissolve when their short term goal is complete, MoveOn will be a force to be reckoned with for years to come. Sacrificing one for the other makes no sense.

Its like saying: I don't like styrofoam & mocha flavored ice cream, so I'm going to ban vanilla ice cream too! And all other flavors of ice cream as well!

Why not just inform the public that styrofoam & mocha flavored ice cream is poisonous swill? Why ruin ice cream for everyone just because you have an aversion to a certain flavor?

[Joanne98]

51. I DON'T think all 527's should be done away with.

This is exactly what the Bushie's are trying to do. Blackmail Kerry into shutting down moveon and ACT. Well NO FUCKING WAY. They've been a godsend. Way more valuable than any pol could be. They're staying
FOREVER!!!!!!!! Moveon was created before Kerry even thought about running for president. MoveonPAC uses hard money from small donors. Swift boats was created a month ago and get all it's money from "Bush family friends". There's no comparasion. Bush can go FUCK HIMSELF.....

[murielm99]

33. One good way to attack is through the truth about the

publisher.

Go to southern poverty law center's website, and search Regnery.

The publisher has too many connections to white supremacy groups for most peoples' comfort. All but the worst racists will be turned off by that.

Don't just publicize the swift liars connections to Bush -- publicize the racist angle, too.

[David__77]

36. Well I'm glad the distinction is being made.

Bush is trying to avoid the issue of content by pointing to 527s generally. But 527s are legal. But Bush must be held to account on the efforts of his allies.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[0007]

48. This poll sez it all!

Do you think the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are acting independently?
Yes
32%
4704 votes

No
68%
9839 votes

Total: 14543 votes

junior has hot line with Swift Boat liars and CNN - Rove must be beside himself these days, 'eh?

[Doosh]

49. well, they've got the goods on 'em now