Vietnam vets launch new TV spot attacking Kerry

[Nambe]

WASHINGTON (AFP)

Senator John Kerry's Vietnam War record came under attack again as a group of veterans released a new television spot denouncing anti-war views expressed by the Democratic presidential contender in 1971.

The advertisement, released by the group known as "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth," shows photos and plays a soundtrack of Kerry's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971.

During his testimony, Kerry, a Swift Boat lieutenant decorated for his valor and injuries suffered in battle, recounted stories he had heard of alleged atrocities committed by US servicemen in Vietnam.

"They personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads ... randomly shot at civilians ... razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan ... ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam," Kerry is heard saying in the ad.

Three Vietnam War veterans are shown in the ad criticizing Kerry for his remarks, which the Massachusetts senator himself has since described as those of an angry young man and "a little bit excessive." ..

Need A Hug Go To The Store!

[tlcandie]

1. Let em... !!!!

I thought his speech was brilliant and honorable! Hell, turn on the whole damned thing! Tell us that what he said was a lie? Hell no it wasn't a lie! The sin was that he, as a veteran, spoke the truth?

That was the most honorable and heartfelt speech I've heard in quite some time!

Let the audience hear the applause at the end. Let the audience hear the person who would not allow them to cut him off!

BRING IT ON!

EDIT: They better watch out of they might just rile up Jane Fonda and she will kick their nutz till the sun don't shine!

[sattahipdeep]

5. You can say that again

Hi tlcandie :bounce:

[tlcandie]

8. ello sattahipdeep!!!

That's a mouthful!! :hi: :hug:

Welcome to DU!

[Beacho]

18. Have some fun

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth P.O. Box 26184 Alexandria, Virginia 22313 United States Registered through: GoDaddy.com (http://www.godaddy.com) Domain Name: SWIFTVETS.COM Created on: 14-Apr-04 Expires on: 14-Apr-05 Last Updated on: 22-Jul-04 Administrative Contact: Symmes, Weymouth [e-mail] Swift Boat Veterans for Truth P.O. Box 26184 Alexandria, Virginia 22313 United States 4067210875 Technical Contact: Symmes, Weymouth [e-mail] Swift Boat Veterans for Truth P.O. Box 26184 Alexandria, Virginia 22313 United States 4067210875 Domain servers in listed order: NS1.HE.NET NS2.HE.NET NS3.HE.NET

[Jacobin]

2. As someone who lived through those times

I appreciate Kerry doing his part to end the war and telling the public about the atrocities. If he and other veterans hadn't spoken out against that war we would still be in Vietnam.

Younger folks who hear this and can't understand the context will be put off by those comments.

Of course, at the same time Kerry was fighting in Vietnam and then protesting against it, Smirk was screwing around in the TANG, getting drunk and knocking up women who then got abortions....not to mention his little nose candy problem.

So sad that this country is so ignorant and so easily misled.

[jeff30997]

7. Well, sir, I would qualify as a Younger folk but ...

I am not an idiot and i read a lot of books so i think i can understand a little bit of the context (i agree that i only understand a very LITTLE bit about that Hera,i was not there so...).So those comments have a powerfully effect on me.

[MichiganVote]

34. Well you better grow up junior because we won't all be

around forever to hold your hand through every moment when critical thinking is called for.

Anyone who lived through the Nam era knows that this smear vet bs is just that, bs. You are advised to inhale it deeply and then reject it soundly else'you'll be living it for the next 4 years.

[Mizmoon]

3. He was traumatized

I forgive him. But how understanding are the undecideds?

[tlcandie]

10. Sorry .. forgive him for what? speaking the truth ?

:shrug:

[sattahipdeep]

13. He wasn't Traumatized...He was a hero then and

He's A Hero now.

[Mizmoon]

16. Now come on

Even he says his comments were overzealous.

[yardwork]

38. I don't think his remarks were overzealous

I'll never forget seeing those photos of My Lai. Kerry was proven right about the atrocities in Vietnam.

Don't forget Abu Ghraib. Atrocities come with wars, especially nasty sneaky illegal wars like the one we launched in March 2003.

[Mizmoon]

40. Kerry says they were overzealous

and he was there.

I'm not denying that Americans did heinous things there. I'm saying that Kerry himself says the comments were overboard.

[MichiganVote]

33. Oh give it up. How the hell would you know?

[leesa]

53. Forgive him for what? Wising up?

[KittyWampus]

4. Kerry "Recounted Stories He Had Heard"

in other words, he gave voice to those not in a position to be heard.

Bless him!

[jeff30997]

6. "They personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads ... "

What am i missing here ? Now it's a bad thing to denounce atrocities?

[yardwork]

39. Exactly. Same reaction to the photos of Abu Ghraib

If Kerry was a traitor for speaking the truth about Vietnam, then CBS is a traitor for showing photos of Abu Ghraib. I know which side I'm on.

[smirkymonkey]

46. Apparently. What a sick fucking world we live in!

I would consider someone denouncing that a hero for exposing the truth. But no, in the minds of these idiots he's a traitor for exposing thier evil deeds.

Are there any honorable men left in the world today?

[Tight_rope]

9. Good...Let them ....they will hang Bush/Cheney...Bush is a stupid ass!

[volosong]

29. LETTER TARGETING VETERANS

GEORGE BUSH & THE POLITICS OF TREASON & DECEIT

It is well-recognized that the first characteristic of any dictatorship is subversion of the mass media followed by infringement of individual civil rights. Anyone scrutinizing performance of the news media has got to be worried and will readily smell that there is something "rotten in Denmark."

The news media revel in replaying propaganda of the Smearboat Liars; now more accurately designated Sieveboat Liars for the holes punched in their stories. Similarly, the news media pander to Bush's ploy of focusing national attention on events of more than 3 decades ago instead of scrutinizing current issues, Administration policy failures and unkept promises.

Our national security has been severely weakened on all levels by sophomoric blunders; and a failure to employ both wisdom and "sensitivity" are two reasons why Iraq has become a persistent hemorrhoid. To compensate for military weakness and most importantly to secure votes, Bush is redeploying tens of thousands of US troops. But don't be reassured, there is a high probability that without new leadership the draft will again be inflicted upon America.

Veterans unable to deal with Kerry's Vietnam dissent forget that true patriots never attack the personal sacrifices and views of another (decorated) veteran. This is particularly true for those lip flapping heroes like Scott O'Grady; and disturbing "antiheroes" like John O'Neill. If John Kerry is guilty of "treason" then so are the majority of Americans who have over the decades have either overtly or tacitly embraced similar views on the Johnson-Nixon conduct of the Vietnam War.

The real tragedy is that veterans who dislike Kerry are supporting George aWol Bush, a devious coward who has repeatedly ignored or shortchanged us. Clearly their unhealed emotional scars are subverting reason and good judgment. The refusal of all loyal citizens including the news media to condemn Bush's unprecedented slanderous campaign of maggot-mouthed politics, back-stabbing, intimidation, and negativity is shameful and un-American

[Neshanic]

11. File another complaint Kerry. That will teach em good.

[tlcandie]

12. I say let them see and hear him in his speech....

split screen...

kerry in speech with audience clapping .. and the person who would not let them cut him off from making his plea/speech

other screen.. bush doing drugs, missing in action, drunk, picking his nose..

Works for me!

[54anickel]

15. All this talk of Viet Nam, brings back lots of memories in song

"Alice's Restaurant" (I was just sittin here on the group W bench...)
"John Prine's "Sam Stone" (There's a hole in Daddy's arm, where all the money goes...)
"War" (Ug, good god lord, what is it good for, absolutely nuttin, say it again....)

[CBHagman]

14. Is this a generational thing?

I'm a baby boomer, and while I'm no expert on the Vietnam war, any mention of war crimes or alleged war crimes during that period doesn't surprise me in the least -- and not because I think war crimes were more likely then, but because of the nature of that particular war. The accusations of massacres, rapes, massive destruction aren't new. What I had always heard was that there were such atrocities, that there was a guerrilla war going on, and that it was not always possible to identify an ally or an enemy.

But I heard my younger colleague going on about this, and I rather wish I had spoken to him about how different that war may look to an older person.

[wishlist]

25. I have talked to several Vietnam vets who were involved in atrocities

I have known several Vietnam vets over the past 30 years who have talked at length about the horrible things they did in Vietnam and how much they hated the Vietnamese. Their attitude and accounts of their behavior against Vietnamese people reminds me of the perpetrators and defenders of the Abu Ghraid prisoner torture.

[ColdWarZoomie]

17. Time to Release the Child Rape Tape

Yeah - it's tinfoil hat stuff, but notice how Abu Ghraib is slowly making its way back into the media?

Wishful thinking is that someone has been holding out on releasing the rape tape right before the RNC convention. Now they're priming the pump for a full onslaught.

These Swiftboat people will drop off the RADAR screen in milliseconds.

On edit: original last line sounded heartless. I would be pleased to see these swiftboat dumbasses gone, and the truth out.

[Beacho]

20. Saw a piece on BBC news

That medics, doctors, and other medical personnell were complicit the mistreatment of prisoners.

But it was just an 'solated incident' :mad:

[LauraK]

19. IMO this ad will be damaging but it follows the tainted ads.

Allot of swing voters are uninformed emotional Jane Fonda haters. It's up to our campagn to address these carefully. Might be time for John Edwards to step up and defend Kerry while Kerry sticks to the issues. I have a feeling after this week, Kerry should stick to coming up with thoughful promises and honest predictions of what he will be able to accomplish.

[robcon]

21. I don't understand why he makes Viet Nam central to his campaign.

This ad is devastating. There are very few Americans who believe Kerry was reporting the truth. I don't.

[Karenina]

23. YOU

probably weren't even born when the events in question took place, nor close to anyone who survived unable to speak of the horrors for DECADES and quite obviously were not there. Just like those assholes to whom you choose to give credence. :eyes:

[Longhorn79]

26. not to split hairs, but these swiftvet guys were there.

That's why the message is damaging. nobody would give a rat's ass if they hadn't been there.

[Karenina]

31. Ah, yet another shining example of

the abject failure of the American educational system on all levels. :eyes: I think you might do well to READ a bit more and check the sources of your information.

"nobody would give a rat's ass if they hadn't been there." Here is where you schluck repug SAMENFLÜSSIGKEIT. Schmeckt das? :shrug:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Longhorn79]

49. By the way, my American educated ass smoked all the Europeans

on the PhD qual exams, so there goes your theory.

[Bridget Burke]

50. Ah, an educated young fellow.

In what field, please?

[Longhorn79]

52. mechanical engineering

[MichiganVote]

35. Reality

John O'Neill wasn't even in VietNam at the same time. The rest did not serve on his boat. The military gave John Kerry the medals. Those are the facts. The rest is speculation.

[robcon]

30. I was not only born during the time. I was in college.

I marched against the war, and had several friends who served there, one of whom was wounded.

This has nothing to do with being anti-war. This is about defaming Viet Nam veterans.

[Karenina]

32. Heh?

Why are there THOUSANDS of Viet Nam vets STILL on the streets. WHO has had the power to help them but instead has chosen to create more of the same devastation while cutting benefits to the NEW walking wounded? WHO is DEFAMING WHOM??? Just wondering what your actual point of reference is.

[annabanana]

27. I do..

Those poor kids that we sent over there then are in the same spot as the kids we send over there are ...You can't tell who's the enemy, no one wants you there, The difference now is that we're catching it earlier, before so many died, or were stressed to the point that humanity breaks down.

[annabanana]

28. It's not news, kid...

We all know this, so catch up!

http://www.vvaw.org/commentary/?id=404

[yardwork]

41. I strongly disagree. Most Americans who were alive during the 1970s

know that what Kerry said was the absolute truth. We saw it with our own eyes in Life magazine. We heard it from our friends and family members around the kitchen table.

And for those who aren't old enough to remember, what do you think Abu Ghraib was? An abberration? I suggest you read some books about the Nazis and Stalin purges. Or maybe some books about the middle ages.

Atrocities and war go hand in hand. Americans are not immune.

[Lizzie Borden]

56. thank-you

for that post.

[bobbieinok]

59. see this DU discussion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2246367#2246435

#4,9,11,5,7,

#4

. Can someone help me find James Kane of Philadelphia, PA??


I need him to verify that he was with me when an "intelligence officer" offered each of us $2000 for each ear of man, woman, or child of Vietnamese origin. We were both short-timers and the offer was made if we stayed for another tour in 'Nam....Why did he make offer to us?? We were both in a support unit (59th Field Service) out of Cam Ranh Bay but we did "get around"...It was around the village of So Chin or Ba Ngoi along the coast...

I assumed this was a common practice and I heard stories of men wearing the ears as a necklace. Somewhere in Viet Nam, incidents were happening every day that could be called "atrocities". Every day occurrences are not isolated incidents, in my opinion. Jim, if you are there and are still alive, get back to me.

and #7

I was a nurse in Vietnam and remember well the photos of the guys with strings of ears. Usually the guys didn't sleep at night and they would tell all kinds of stories of things they did. They all couldn't have been made up.

[MODemocrat]

44. They're doing this because of Bush's absence from Vietnam

If they can make John Kerry the scapegoat, then Bush will be forgiven because he went AWOL. That's my opinion at least.
:spank: :spank: :thumbsdown:

[Career Prole]

55. I made this post just for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x648580

[maxsolomon]

22. no one asks the VVAW to comment

they're tax exempt so they can't endorse, but a spokesman can sure as hell comment if asked.

get on it "liberal media".

[Nambe]

24. VVAW has a good peice on the Swift Boad mess.

http://www.vvaw.org/content/?id=449

A rw vet group refused to post it so VVAW gave it a front page spot.

[featherman]

Have I stepped through the looking glass?

War time atrocities by members of the US forces during the ten year war in Viet Nam are a simple fact. It was a nasty and brutal conflict against an indigenous force that gave no quarter and expected none. It brutalized and traumatized a generation. Extremely cruel and violent things happened with regularity. This is simple, documented fact. I thought that was settled and accepted long ago.
I guess I thought it had also been settled long ago that the whole Viet Nam adventure had been an extremely misguided, self destructive mistake. Is the RW position now that the Viet Nam War was a noble cause fought on a sterile chessboard with no villages burned or plundered, no children killed or maimed, no Vietnamese mutilated, tortured or executed? Is THIS the rewriting of history that is being done now? Have I stepped through the looking glass?

[yardwork]

42. You tell it, Featherman! I can't believe what I am reading here tonight!

[minkyboodle]

54. its really quite surreal

I keep waiting for someone to slap me awake when I see all of this press coverage... strange days indeed

[brentspeak]

36. And yet, there might BE some truth to Kerry's comments

That, or O'Neill has contradicted himself mightily.

Back in 1971, O'Neill doubted Kerry's claim that he had personally been involved in war crimes of any sort. Today, O'Neill is saying that he now believes Kerry's earlier claim of participating in some of the things that he mentioned during his testimony.

If indeed this is true, that Kerry participated in war crimes, and that 200+ Vietnam vets who served in different parts of Vietnam that Kerry met up with told him that THEY also participated in such crimes, then that kind of blows "the average American soldier did not take part in or witness such atrocities" out of the water. At the very least, under such personal circumstances, Kerry can hardly be blamed for truly believing that war crimes occured on such a wide scale in Vietnam.

My personal opinion is that the war crimes were not as prevalent as Kerry said they were, nor was the war anywhere close to the sanitized "gentlemen's war" that O'Neill has claimed it was.

[yardwork]

43. Nobody has ever suggested that Vietnam was a "sanitized Gentleman's war."

I've never heard that before in my life.

[brentspeak]

45. That's the impression that O'Neill has always tried to convey

He has said repeatedly that he himself never participated in nor witnessed any unsoldierly conduct towards the VC or the Vietnamese people. He has said that except for a couple of incidents, such as My Lai, hardly any war crimes on the part of American soldiers ever took place. If that isn't sanitizing the war's history, my name is Larry Thurlow.

[Lizzie Borden]

57. huh???

:wtf:

[DU GrovelBot]

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[latebloomer]

47. Atrocities were widespread in Vietnam

and there were many factors involved-- the relative youth and immaturity of the soldiers,the traumatic nature of the losses they suffered, the fact that the enemy could be anyone-- man, woman or child. Kerry spoke the truth when he returned and is backpedalling now. Anyone who denies it is rewriting history.

[TabulaRasa]

51. Kerry's Testimony

I agree with the defenses of Kerry. As to the issue of Kerry backing off his statements, that's not entirely true. He said the language he used was harsh and angry and he wouldn't use it in hindsight... that's different from claiming that anything he said was false. More to the point, Kerry said this because he's a spineless politician who thinks if he avoids saying anything that might offend anyone, he'll squeak by. The fact that he doesn't have the guts to stand by what he said doesn't make it any less true. And apart from that, it's politically inept, seeing as how now, people are using his backpedaling to suggest that what he said was indeed a horrible slander ... or in the extreme case, as some idiot from the Boston Globe said on Real Time two weeks ago, to suggest that he was deliberately lying at the time to score political points by slandering veterans. (She actually suggested that he had admitted to that ridiculous charge.)
The fact of the matter is that John Kerry was speaking as a representative of VVAW, which had just conducted an investigation called the Winter Soldier Investigation, in which hundreds of soldiers reported witnessing and participating in atrocities with the high-level knowledge of the military establishment ... JUST AS HE REPORTED. He was a representative ... it would have been completely ridiculous for him not to have reported what he had seen and heard in Detroit. More to the point, he never accused anyone of anything; he repeated what he had heard, as was his obligation. Also, I don't see how anyone with a functional brain could possibly see his testimony and think that he was indicting the military. The civilian leadership was the focus of his anger, both for perpetrating atrocities and for putting young kids into an environment where they were more prone to commit atrocities themselves.
Sadly, for all the talk Kerry has made about "bring it on", "I'm a fighter" and whatnot, he's done very little fighting back. In fact, he barely seems able to defend himself, let alone bring the fight to the Republicans. We'd probably be in a lot better shape if that 27-year-old would make a return appearance.

[Disturbed]

58. War Crimes.

J. Kerry participated in the "Free Fire Zones" actions. He stated that in the O'Neil vs J. Kerry, Dick Cavett debate. I watched it twice recently. This is the crux of the vehement attack on J. Kerry. Many Viet Vets are still real angry at him for making the accusations. They felt that this was the time for payback and the Neo Fascists financed them to come out now to lash out.

This debate does get the core of this campaign. Some have said it distracts from real present issues which is true but it gets to a core issue. Who is more qualified to be the next Pres.? On the one hand is a person who went AWOL during his Air Gaurd stint that he opted for, checking the "No foreign duty" box. On the other we have a person that volunteered for active duty, was on a ship for a year then volunteered for dangerous duty in a real dangerous area of Vietnam.

[despairing optimist]

60. Hear, hear! Finally, some sense in this thread

I'd gladly vote for the unreformed, unrepentant Kerry who wasn't afraid to take a stand and lead.

Does anyone know where he went? All I see now is someone bending over backwards so as not to offend anyone, even if they deserve to be offended and are offending lots of other people by trying to rewrite history and get everyone to believe them. Why should I vote for someone who's helping them do it? I'd call that betrayal, not what Kerry testified to in the Senate 33 years ago.

It looks like this is a loser of an issue for him. The best way out may well be to dredge up B's own questionable (some might say execrable) military record, complete with missing documents, mysterious absences, and nonexistent eyewitnesses. Fight Rove with Rove, sideshow with sideshow, as the economy slumps into recession, Iraq into chaos, and liberty into control and surveillance. If history is bunk, why not throw in the future too for good measure?

Wake me up when it's morning in America for real this time.