Tensions Escalate Between Israel, Iran

[katusha]

By JOSEF FEDERMAN, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Iran threatened this week to attack Israel's nuclear facilities. Israel ominously warned that it "knows how to defend itself." Tensions between the two arch enemies have suddenly escalated, underlining the other great enmity that has been bubbling on the sidelines of the Arab-Israeli conflict for more than two decades.
....more

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040820/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_iran_1

[tlcandie]

1. OMG.. I love the GQ front with Dems new Look!!!

Well, this would certainly take all this about * and SBV off the front page and news, eh?

EDIT:

Even IF all of this is nothing more than posturing by both sides, wouldn't the US military have to put troops into place or mechanics just in case to protect the Israelis? So, wouldn't that mean that all those supposedly on their way home or scheduled could be secretly deployed around Iran or whatever?

[katusha]

2. yes it would

and also an excuse to go after iran without all that messy "WMD" stuff. could get messy.

[tlcandie]

4. So, what would make it a TRIFECTA?

damned!

[katusha]

8. i think a better term would be

HELL ON EARTH!!

:-)

[tlcandie]

12. I totally agree, but you know how this crazy regime loves TRIFECTAS! eom

[katusha]

15. and just like tic-tac-toe

three in a row.

[jus_the_facts]

3. WTF?

Israel is widely believed to have nuclear weapons, but never formally confirms or denies it has them. :wtf:

WE GAVE THEM NUKES...I thought everybody knew this? :crazy:

[katusha]

6. we know but...

we don't know, wink, wink, wouldn't want to get in trouble with that non-proliferation treaty now would we???

[Wright Patman]

11. Believe it or not, the French

had a lot more to do with Israel's acquisition of nuclear weapons than did the U.S.

Also, since Jewish scientists from Einstein to Oppenheimer literally invented the bomb, I don't think Israel really needed anyone's help except in terms of logistics such as coming up with uranium and the like. I think South Africa used to help them with the latter raw materials problem.

An interesting read on this topic is a book published in 1991, IIRC, by Seymour Hersh called THE SAMSON OPTION.

[Leilani]

5. The PNAC wants another war...against Iran

I say keep us out of it.

I am sick of expending blood & treasure in the Mideast.

Let them ALL blow themselves to smithereens!

[IranianDemocrat]

7. Fuck Israel...

If the terrorist state of Israel can have nukes then why can't the terrorist state of Iran have nukes?

[katusha]

9. i love nukes

god how i miss the fear and the nightmares i used to have in the good ol' days of the cold war. thank god bush is trying to turn back the clock to the reagan years. now if putin would just reinstall communist rule....

[Matilda]

28. You just might get your wish.

Putin's getting more authoritarian by the week. And free speech is
slowly but surely being stifled on his watch.

Not surprising, considering his KGB background - a case of the
leopard never really changing its spots.

[tlcandie]

30. Just making sure you knew Kat was being sarcastic...?

:hi: I figure you did, but just making sure!

[tarheelprogressive]

16. Israel

Let's hope Israel is victorious against Iran. They are our ally. Fuck Iran.

[ilovenicepeople]

17. Howdy tarheelprogressive

I would say welcome to DU,but you smell funny.Nothing like the reek of violent intention's.:puke:

[SOS]

22. If Iran has acquired

a nuclear warhead, both nations would cease to exist. Not much of a victory.

[Matilda]

29. Oh yes, and let's start WWIII while we're at it.

Of course, that's what some nutters want. I suspect you're one of
them.

[0007]

31. It will be a Mexican stand-off anyway you look at it -

[Gyre]

36. Some fucking ally.

Fuck Israel. 67 UN resolutions condemning Israel can't be wrong. Every country on the planet signed off on those with the US exercising it's veto to protect the most obnoxious country on the face of the earth.

Gyre

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

50. You're Wrong!

America is the most obnoxious country on the face of the earth...well, for the last four years anyway. ;)

[Big_AJ]

57. Obnoxious but ....

not terroristic, expansionist and human rights denying.

AJ

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

61. Obnoxious and...

terroristic

School of the Americas, Haiti, Venezuela, the rest of South America

expansionist

Afghanistan, Iraq

human rights denying

Guantánamo Bay, Abu Ghraib

[Big_AJ]

58. Some questions --

In what country do Arabs have freedoom of speech?  Free &
fair elections?  Opposition political parties?

AJ

[VirginiaDem]

19. How about for starters

Because the Terrorist State of Iran is also, more or less, the Crazy Whacked Out State of Iran. Their leaders from the A. Khomeini on have regularly expounded all of the following:
The Holocaust did not happen.
The Jews kill non Jewish babies and drain their blood to mix into holiday cookies.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is the truth.
The first Muslim state to get the bomb is religiously bound to use it on Israel.
The Jews are descendants of monkeys and pigs.

Since there is reason to believe that they actually believe this horseshit, there is great reason to believe they would in fact use a nuke on Israel (either directly on indirectly by farming it/them out to the nearest nutcase).

There is no evidence whatsoever that Israeli feelings toward Iran are equivalent.

[mitchtv]

23. the first muslim state is Pakistan

and they have'm aimed east

[VirginiaDem]

25. you're right about that

I was feeling a little sloppy about my research so I found an exact quote from Rafsanjani (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=SP32502):

Nuclear Weapons Can Solve the Israel Problem
Rafsanjani said that Muslims must surround colonialism and force them to see whether Israel is beneficial to them or not. If one day, he said, the world of Islam comes to possess the weapons currently in Israel's possession - on that day this method of global arrogance would come to a dead end. This, he said, is because the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam.

(Which doesn't affect your point)

[number6]

26. I don't think so ....

"There is no evidence whatsoever that Israeli feelings toward Iran are equivalent"

[VirginiaDem]

27. You have evidence then...

that Israeli leaders believe that Iranians have a succesful, secret millenia-old plot to run the world? And that an Israeli PM or ex-PM has stated publicly that Iran and its inhabitants should be eliminated? Or that Iran has no right to exist (not the present government or the leaders or a budding nuke factory but the nation itself)? Or that Israeli leaders believe that Iranians kill non-Iranian children, grind up their bodies, and use the blood for Iranian religious celebrations? Or that the evidence for the abuses of the Shah are fabricated by a worldwide conspiracy? For any of these?

These are the feelings/beliefs that I am claiming are not equivalent.

[PsychoDad]

34. Could you share some Iranian sources...

"Their leaders from the A. Khomeini on have regularly expounded all of the following:
The Holocaust did not happen.
The Jews kill non Jewish babies and drain their blood to mix into holiday cookies.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is the truth.
The first Muslim state to get the bomb is religiously bound to use it on Israel.
The Jews are descendants of monkeys and pigs."

I for one would like to see a Iranian, or at the least a shia source for your statements.

And BTW- An "Islamic" dictatorship already has the bomb.

[VirginiaDem]

Sure thing

The ADL and MEMRI are both in the translation business.Here's what the ADL has to say:

http://www.adl.org/css/proto-iran.asp?&MSHiC=1252&L=10&W=Iran+IRANS+&Pre=%3CFONT+STYLE%3D%22color%3A+%23000000%3B+background%2Dcolor%3A+%23FFFF00%22%3E&Post=%3C%2FFONT%3E

and

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/as_arabmedia_10_03/asam_iran_10_03.asp?&MSHiC=1252&L=10&W=Iran+IRANS+&Pre=%3CFONT+STYLE%3D%22color%3A+%23000000%3B+background%2Dcolor%3A+%23FFFF00%22%3E&Post=%3C%2FFONT%3E
Here's a page from Memri.org:
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=SP9800

Here's another site:
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/4_04/as_iran.htm

That should be enough to get you started but if you're truly curious about the subject of antisemitism in the Islamic world then I recommend the following books (many of which contain chapters on the Islamic world, including some info on Iran):

A Rumor About the Jews by Stephen Eric Bronner
Antisemitism in the Contemporary World by Michael Curtis (ed)
The New Anti-Semitism by Forster and Epstein
The Return of Anti-Semitism by Shoenfeld
The New Anti-Semitism by Chesler
Why the Jews? by Prager and Telushkin
Chapter 20 of Anti-Semitism: A History by Dan Cohn-Sherbok
Never Again? by Abe Foxman

If you're just trying to trip me up because what's really important to you is arguing with someone who doesn't immediately buy the party line on everything, then shame on you. The Iranian leadership is extremely anti-semitic. This is not, for anyone even vaguely familiar with modern Iranian history, remotely controversial.

[Lithos]

39. Much of that material is now dated

Iran is not the same place nor does it issue rhetoric like it did when Khomeini first took over. More importance needs to be placed on today, not yesterday.

L-

[VirginiaDem]

40. not really

unless by "dated" you mean just a couple years ago. Khomeini was much more antisemitic than the current leadership, this is true, but that's not saying much. I have seen no evidence whatsoever (and I have been looking) that there has been any kind of move toward reducing antisemitism. The only change is that the Iranian leadership has de-spiced some of its public rhetoric in order to appease Washington. But this has consisted almost entirely of being careful to talk only of the "zionist regime" or Israelis as opposed to Jews generally. This public change has not been accompanied by a softening of the regime's antisemitism. The Protocols are still widely available; the state newspapers still publish various myths and antisemitic cartoons. Unless you've got some evidence otherwise, in which case please inform as I'm not nearly as mule-headed as I may appear :-)

[VirginiaDem]

41. Did you read the links?

Sorry, needed another post to cover this. Did you read the links or did you just assume? The only remotely dated subject is the full-text publication of the Protocols. The last version published was in 1998 (which isn't THAT long ago). Excerpts are still published in the state media and there has, not surprisingly, been absolutely no campaign to denounce the Protocols. All of the other links include info from 2000-2004.

[Lithos]

53. an examination

The ADL article talks about the publication of the Protocols of Zion, a particularly detestable and disgusting tract. Specifically it talked about the publications in 1978, 1985 and 1994. The last being privately funded. The first two admittedly while under the direct auspicies of the Khomeini revolution.

As an aside, the US also has several organizations privately publishing the PoZ. The "Passion of Christ" is also based from publications of known Anti-Semites.

The Memri article while written in 2000 spends a good deal of it's time talking about quotations of Imam Khomeini. Khomeini died in 1989 so any comment attributable to him is before that. Iran, btw, has undergone some severe changes internally since that time. And while the last article does talk about the current Imam Khamanei making speeches against Judaism and Zionism, most of his comments in that light are usually part of a broader and more sustained series of attacks against the US.

Personally, I view the sustained dialogue against Israel as a way for Iran to puff itself up militarily without directly referencing the US, the reason for the buildup. Israel is nothing more than a surrogate for the US. Khamanei knows to attack Israel will invite a complete and total US response.

Think about it, Bush declared Iran one of the axis of evil in 2001. Khamanei started making increased Anti-Zionist remarks in 2002 right before Gulf War II. Shortly afterwards, Iran found the US military presence surrounding almost the entirety of it's periphery capped with a vast number of troops now in Iraq. At this time Iran has responded with increased rhetoric against the US and Israel as well as dramatic new displays highlighting it's missile and other technological military capabilities.

L-

[VirginiaDem]

55. Good points...

That's a plausible enough explanation for what Iran is doing. My worry is that we are not allowing ourselves to see the thoughts of the Iranian leadership for what they are. Regardless of what the Iranians are saying publicly, there remains no convincing evidence that these beliefs have lessened. There could be cognitive dissonance--because we've been trained to think that leaders of nation states are rational actors and because, except for a streetcorner nutcase here or there, we don't believe things like Jews drain the blood of children for religious reasons, we have a difficulty acknowledging such beliefs in others. Once a leader does believe this (and his citizenry has been encouraged to believe the same thing), how do we know the leader wouldn't go nuclear? I would not expect Iran to unleash a nuke at Israel but passing it off to someone else outside of the borders seems perfectly internally logical, given what I am arguing about the beliefs of the leadership.

Does this make any sense or am I rambling?

[The Magistrate]

48. Doubtless, Mr. Lithos, That Is So

But if yesterday were not the focus, the Middle East would not be what it is today....

"A man ought to have more to talk about than what he did in high school."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Lithos]

54. Which part of history?

That is what I found funny, the selective remembrance. I also remember the 60's and early 70's when Iran was Israel's main friend in the ME region and who also supplied the majority of its oil.

L-

[VirginiaDem]

56. I was selective for a reason...

I am not trying to argue that there is something about Iranian/Persian culture that is inherently antisemitic. My argument was selective for a reason--I am trying to show that the Islamic Republic of Iran is antisemitic. My argument has nothing to do with the 60s or 70s. The fact that Iran was at one point Israel's best friend in the ME is encouraging indeed. The regime has been in power for 25 years. They have been propogating antisemitism for 25 years. It is certainly possible, as you seem to be arguing above, that the current leadership is not so deeply antisemitic. I'm not so optimistic--you've explained well above why the regime might tone down rhetoric but that doesn't make me comfortable. I just don't see any evidence that the antisemitism has gone away.

[Lithos]

59. I was arguing for something quite different

There has been a rash of comments throughout the press that Iran is going to attack Israel. The primary reason cited is that Iran is anti-Semitic, is about to obtain nuclear weapons, and is an imminent threat to Israel. I believe people are misinterpreting the rhetoric and are doing so in a way which is ignoring the bigger problem.

Personally I do think that the leadership is anti-semitic. They are also anti-Zoroastrian and a few other anti-'s as well. However, I also think their motives contain a bit more craftiness(see 1) and self-preservation behind it that is driven more by the existing situation than not.

Basically Israel is not the goal of their foreign policy, but rather a scapegoat/symbol of a greater issue against the US. which is where I feel they feel threatened. In what you would term a classic sense of anti-semitism, they are threatening Israel (a small country) as it will make their people feel emboldened. Pure bravado to help rally their people as to go against the US right now directly invites a confrontation with Bush who is in the same position now as Saddam was back in the 80's and likely to launch a war that would be very bloody and very costly to both sides.

To me the symbology that is being used bears a strong resemblance to that of the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war. The US's response looks similar as well. In some cases the Iranian response is good as they critique the US problems with Abu-Ghraib, but as above the rhetoric is bad. Both are striving for "moral" high ground with their various people. Unfortunantly, like then, this has the effect of driving the beat of the war drums to an even greater frenzy.

So, to me, nothing has changed vis-a-vis their position with Israel. Their rhetoric is really aimed towards us, not Israel. We should be very careful at this stage as our butt is very much extended in Iraq and our options are few.


1) I was going to use the word rationality, but I do not wish to imply that anti-Semitism or any other bigotry is a rational and logical thought. Craftiness is not right either, but it's closer.

[VirginiaDem]

60. Okay...

I get it. That's an interesting argument. Hell, it could be true. And I agree wholeheartedly with the extended-in-Iraq bit.

[PsychoDad]

46. Thanks, but what I was looking for

Was an "offical" Iranian site, or lacking that, a shia site that propagated such things, not ADL sites reporting it second hand.

I'm sure there is anti-semitism in Iran, just as there is in many parts of the world,including here in america, where Jerry Falwell, a man with close connections to american leaders, and a staunch "ally" of Israel states, "God does not listen to the prayers of a Jew".

And as Jerry is an "American Christian", does that mean that he echos the "offical" position of America, or of "Christians" for that matter? I should hope not - although he does echo the sentiments of an all too large a segment of the american population which he panders to.

And lets not forget that the "Elders of Zion" have been translated into a number of languages, not just persian, and read by many others, not just muslims. Ignorance, it seems, is multicultural and transcends creed.

What does concern me with the ADL site you have provided is the equating of Anti-zionism, the opposition to Israeli political and military policies with anti-semitism, a hatred of all Jews. The two are not equitable, and I'd dare say one would be hard pressed to find a pro-zionist state anywhere in the ME, except for Israel.

[VirginiaDem]

47. Mistake-by-mistake

1: Jerry Falwell is a televangelist that has run for a few elections and lost them all badly. My argument, for which I have supplied much evidence, is that the Iranian government is antisemitic. They control the newspapers, media and bookstores. Falwell is powerful and frightening but this is an entirely different level.
2: The Elders of Zion has indeed been published in many countries and languages. Iran, however, is one of the few places where the government has officially sanctioned them.
3:There very well may be places on the ADL site that equate disagreement with Israeli policy with antisemitism. If this is so, I disagree with them. I'm sure there are a number of issues I would disagree with the ADL on. If you're referring to this link:
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/as_arabmedia_10_03/asam_iran_10_03.asp?&MSHiC=1252&L=10&W=Iran+IRANS+&Pre=%3CFONT+STYLE%3D%22color%3A+%23000000%3B+background%2Dcolor%3A+%23FFFF00%22%3E&Post=%3C%2FFONT%3E
then you've misread the page. ADL is arguing that the Israeli policy the Iranian article is talking about is a myth. That crosses the line into antisemitic territory.
4: I don't read Farsi. If you read Farsi, go find it yourself. If you don't, stop being disingenious--it's tacky. But while you're at it, please find some evidence supporting your implied assertion that the translations at ADL and MEMRI can't be believed. I have no reason to believe that the ADL and MEMRI translators are inaccurate.
5: I agree that there are no pro-zionist states in the ME other than Israel. That doesn't affect my argument in any way.

[rustydad]

43. I have a friend....

.....who is Iranian. He lives mostly here in the USA and France. He says things are harsh in Iran, mostly economic. He does indeed hate Israel but mostly for it's politics, not it's existance. The Arab world is far better informed on the doings of the Zionist gevernment of Israel than us here in the US. If we knew what they know we likely would not support the government of Israel either. Bob

[VirginiaDem]

45. The fact that you've got an Iranian

friend who claims he hates the Israeli government, not the Jews themselves, does not erase the simple fact that the Iranian leadership is extremely antisemitic. The government has, for its entire history, propounded antisemitic theories (as well as argued against the actions of the Israeli government). We don't know what effects this has on the population. What percentage of Iranians believe the antisemitic myths that have been forced down their throats by the government for so long? Who knows?

[Sugarbleus]

32. Why does Israel matter to anyone outside of the Palestinian's

struggle? Why is it any other nation's business what goes on in Israel except for the Palestinians. I don't get it. Is this an ethnic thing with everyone in the Middle East pissed off at Israel? OR...

Is this a religious war afterall? Outside of the land issues, the whole conflict in that region with all the neighboring "states" all in a twist over what Israel does is very odd. Just Curious.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. just my opinion...I have lots of them! :)

Many nations are involved because of their hatred of Jews. They refuse to acknowledge a "Jewish" state. So, religion does play a part in the issues. Despite what many think, it is not just Muslims that have issue with a "Jewish" state. The land issue, I feel sometimes, is just a red herring. Don't get me wrong, it is very important, but I feel it is very naive to think that if a Palestinian state is established, that all the problems will melt away; they won't!

In short, there are many factors in play. Because of the volatile nature of the situation, many nations involve themselves in the politics of Israel.

Brightest Blessings!

[lordwhorfin]

10. Good God!

Doesn't the author of this story understand that Iran is NOT an Arab nation? AAAAAAAGH. Fools.

[TrogL]

13. Dubya would love a nuclear war to break out

He would love to push the button and bring on Armageddon.

[Hornito]

14. No doubt Bush and Sharon are planning something to take the

heat off their recent (and upcoming) misfortunes. I have no doubt whatsoever that Sharon, working in concert with his White House moles (Abrams, Wolfowitz, Perle, et al) are planning something before the election.

Stay tuned. The PNAC bunch of neonazicons and Likudniks, aren't going down without a fight, even if it means blowing up the world.

[tlcandie]

18. If you are looking to get this thread shut down keep up the negative

remarks about F*ing the two I's, etc. Unless that IS your intention?

:spank:

[number6]

24. I think that is their intention

..

[tlcandie]

20. Well, katusha

looks like a perfectly good thread is going to get shut down because some people can't speak about the story instead of venting emotions. So sorry!

Thanks ahead of time for posting this!

[katusha]

21. NP bedtime anyway tommorrow is another day

[Voltaire99]

33. Iranian generals: "doctrine of pre-emption 'not limited to Americans'"

Well, of course not. It's available to stupid people everywhere.

This is but one consequence of opening Pandora's box. And never forget that 80% of the American public were eager to pry it open.

It doesn't matter that Israel could destroy Iran. A regional war in the Middle East would send oil prices into the Twilight Zone, lead to massive death and suffering, and imperil US soldiers now on the ground in Iraq. Given the stakes, it could easily trigger WW III.

A moral nation would be seeking to defuse this situation. Are we such a nation?

[Behind the Aegis]

35. the race is back on

There seem to be many misconceptions in this thread. First, as someone stated, Iranians are not Arabs, but they are (mostly) Muslims. Seems often that people interchange the two. Second, someone posted about the "teachings" of Iranians to children. To my knowledge, those examples were from Palestinian classrooms. It is not to say it is not widespread in other Muslim nations. That list actually comes from reports from Arab and Islamic newspapers. And, third, I have yet to see any Israeli connections in the White House (Wolfwitz, etc.). This only feeds that anti-Jewish sentiment that Jews run (or try to run) the world.

Personally, I do not want to see either nation to engage the other. The ramifications will be felt worldwide. So to say, FUCK ISRAEL or FUCK IRAN, is the same as saying FUCK THE WORLD! IMO!

Brightest Blessings!

[VirginiaDem]

42. You're wrong

and to find out why this time you'll actually have to click on the links and read the material. Try it. They are specifically about Iran, every one of them, even though a couple of the links look like they aren't. The types of antisemitism found in Palestinian textbooks are found throughout the Islamic world in newspapers, in madrassahs, on TV and in the bookstores. This is well documented. Don't take my word for it, read the books suggested above. Read through the ADL and MEMRI sites. I believe that nobody on this thread has made the mistake of calling Iranians "Arabs". There was a mistake in the article itself but please find the post that does so. We know that Iranians aren't Arabs.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. we are on the same side...I think

I was not aware of some of the sources your provided. As I said, in my post before yours, it was "possible" that other nations were using tainted textbooks, I had just never heard it. I did say that the misinformation was being spread throughout the Arab/Muslim world via newspapers! I appreciate your links because it reaffirmed that this crap is being spread all over. As for my assertion about the Arab vs. Muslim usage, I was directing it at the article, but I was also just coming from another thread where the two terms were being used interchangeably and got confused (thinking it was posters here), so that is my bad! Thanks for the links!

[VirginiaDem]

52. I'm sure we're on the same side

and thanks for your post. And you're right--you did refer to the misinformation in the Arab/Muslim world. My bad on that.

[DU GrovelBot]

37. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our third quarter 2004 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
on donations from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for
your support.

[truthisfreedom]

38. remember to donate! rethuglicans... untie!

[leesa]

44. Gotta get Israel's war on.

We created the pre-emption climate and one side or the other will use it. Israel has threatened to blow up Iran's power sources and they feel they need to pre-empt this disaster, here we go...

[SOS]

49. And as nuclear brinksmanship

threatens to annihilate millions of people, Bush is on vacation. As usual.

[Radius]

63. Sad Situation

This is a depressing situation all around.

Iran's defense minister has stated they intend to build the bomb for use against Israel. He stated that Iran could absorb the counter strike if it lead to the destruction of Israel.

The UN has found weapons grade uranium on two devices in different places and the Europeans are upset than Iran will not abide by the terms of its adoption of the NPT. Europe is within the range of Iran's ballistic missile umbrella. Iran is an energy exporter, it has no need to run reactors for power.

Iran has probably located its weapons facilities in Tehran so any attack would cause a radiological disaster.

No one will win here, in the event of a launch by Iran Israel would pick up the launch and counter strike. Millions of innocent people would die.

Another nuclear state in the Mideast increases the chance of war between each other, Pakistan\India etc. Nuclear proliferation is not in anyones best interest here or elsewhere.