NYT: Ready to Bet on Alternative Energy? Well, Think Again

[DeepModem Mom]

INVESTING
Ready to Bet on Alternative Energy? Well, Think Again
By CONRAD DE AENLLE

Published: August 22, 2004


WHEN oil prices rise, public interest in alternative energy often does, too. Tapping into renewable sources of power like wind, solar power and hydrogen, which are inexhaustible but far from inexpensive, seems to make more commercial sense when crude oil costs $47 a barrel.

But the logic is evidently escaping Wall Street. Many companies involved in alternative energy have missed out on the rally that has lifted shares of oil and gas companies.

Some investors, particularly advocates of what is known as socially responsible investing, expect the cost gap to narrow. They say that producing energy from renewable sources is becoming cheaper, while fossil fuels will become more expensive as supplies dwindle, long after the current pressures that have been pushing prices higher have receded.

Those advocates also say that concerns about pollution and climate change make alternative energy more politically palatable than energy from conventional sources. In many countries, they say, that should help producers benefit from government subsidies and ambitious production targets.

But skeptics closer to the investment mainstream argue that renewable energy will not become commercially viable for many years. In the meantime, they warn, these industries will have to depend on continual new financing and, as a result, are best avoided....


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/22/business/yourmoney/22alte.html

[Toots]

1. Some people have vision and some do not

:shrug: Oil is not the future it is the present and soon to be a diminishing resource.

[sandnsea]

2. ugh, stocks

Wind companies make money. Oil still gets huge govt tax breaks and subsidies. Stock prices aren't the end all to the financial performance of a business, especially when lies are being told about the government's role in energy overall, making wind seem like a riskier investment than it is.

[Dover]

3. Which is why huge corporations like GE and the oil industry are so

heavily invested in these alternatives.....either to squash them or to at least control their advancement in the market. Look at the auto industry for an example......pushing gas guzzlers, creating (not responding to) demand.

[DBoon]

4. The *American* auto industry, that is

Note that the only serious efforts made towards high mileage hybrids was done by Japanese auto makers, leaving US companies to play catch-up.

[mahina]

8. hope is on the way!

I remember a tiny column in the back of the financial pages a couple of years ago with the chairman of G.M. quoted as saying of their new hydrogen platform "this represents the end of the era of the internal combustion engine. Withing a decade fuel cell vehicles will have replaced them on the road". or words to that effect.
I heard Amory Lovins, fouder of the Rocky Mountain Institute, speak here. He developed the technology to make a safe hydgrogen car and GAVE it to all major auto mfrs, focring them to compete. There are prototypes on the road from BMW, Toyota, GM and those are just the ones I know about...
His big idea that seemed so amazing to me is to consider the cars on the road as small electric plants. Rather than burn oil or coal for electricity at a 1-25% effeciency, plug your hypercar into your house when you get home and it powers your home! http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid386.php
Kerry's energy ideas are the best hope for a victory in 04. People want to hear about it and * is so discredited in this area already there is a great context for Kerry's leadership on this important subject.

[DBoon]

13. AFTER GM pulled the plug on the ev1

American auto makers respond to someone else's initiatives. They don't seem to innovate of their own.That and I'm sure they have cultural blinders against innovations like hybrid or alternate fuel cars. Just goes against their idea of what cars are about.

That and they have very good access to regulatory agencies, so any inconvenient initiatives can easily be squelched.

[mahina]

19. just checking

I have to head out but will check on the GM hydrogen platform's status and Ford's Hybrid SUV.
I'm certainly not arguing that they are suddenly now green, but arguing against the automatic response that lots have learned that it can't happen- that renewables are too expensive (no longer true) or that mfrs won't allow new technology (also not the case as I understand it.)
I could certainly be w-wr-wr-wr-wrong but it would be a big 180 for Ford and GM for sure.
Interesting about the death of the EV1....

[Gregorian]

5. The politics of energy

It's well known that "they" stop new ideas. I know of people who've literally had the fbi give them trouble for inventing things that threatened the automotive industry.
That's how they stay in business. Just like Republicans.

Furthermore, Bush cut funding to alternative energy programs.

[gottaB]

6. hmm

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=2y&s=FPL&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=eslr%2Cgmp%2Cxom%2Ccvx

[loftycity]

7. We are going to need oil to build renewable energy

The way we are going it will be so scarce that no one will fund the manufacturer of the load of equipment and how to build the outlets for the new energy.
Just building a new grid to handle the new energy will be monumental.
I hope we understand what this is going to take and get to task on it now.

[mahina]

10. Distributed generation

Not disagreeing with you overall that conversion is a huge task with major interests opposed, but the solution to the problem you posed is distribted generation. If you make your energy where you are you don't have to transport it anywhere.
For supplemental energy the existing grid will be fine. Supplement what's coming in now with pv solar, maybe even microturbines for wind power, sell back the extra energy to the utility.
Do your utilities let you sell back extra energy you make to them?

[loftycity]

12. Not here in Minnesota

They just take your energy and sell it. Plus the Engery companies are not going to give in to the last drop is sold.

[mahina]

15. Here the utility is a monopoly, and the PUC seems to work for them.

The PUC fails completely to regulate the utility.
We pay the most in the whole country for electricity, with a guaranteed % profit to the util for using oil.
Can you believe that? Here in the perfect place for solar and wind?
Change is coming!! People are starting to wake up and not wait for 'them' to make a change, but to demand and create change ourselves.
Our utility said publicly they were in favor of purchase power agreements and then in the legislature worked hard and suceeded in getting it down to- get this
.1% of the consumers.
.1%
Shameful!!!
While grandstanding about how green they are!
Asshats!

[loftycity]

18. Well just remember our engery was public funded and built by

the public(our taxes) and then we sold out to private industry. Now the public will have to buy it back. At a big price and we will be getting a used, slummed down system that was never brought up to standard or fixed an any significant way. We are screwed.
Slumlords win..in the short term and we pay in the long term.

[Jack Rabbit]

9. The advantages of capitalism

I thought innovation spurred by competition was supposed to be an advantage of capitalism.

Perhaps this is wrong?

[thebigidea]

11. well, obviously.

Once the oil runs out, then the big companies will plunge into alternative energy sources - which they'll charge EVEN MORE for.

[loftycity]

14. Bush has sold Stillwater Mining to a Russian billionaire

Stillwater was the largest producer of Platinum and Palladium in the US. We need this for Hydrogen and any new fusion developments.
Big article in Mother Jones July issue.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2004/05/04_406.html

[mahina]

16. WOW

Thank you for the link and the info.

[loftycity]

17. Good article--go see

Michael Ruppert's site. www.FromtheWilderness.com
And go to articles about Peak Oil.
Read his Bio and see if Mike is someone you can digest.
33 members of congress get his newsletter and 50 Universites subscribe.

[Radius]

20. Bio-Fuel

Interestingly a large portion of the US Commercial fleet as well as some oil fired furnaces can run on B20 or greater blends of natural oils and #2 diesel. Massive reduction in greenhouse emissions and particulates are gained. This is the quickest way to make a big impact. Requiring this be phased in over 5 years would create an economy of scale for the base oil. That oil will run in most diesels with no petro blend. A few catches for climate, etc but a good direction for the commercial fleet.

In my area large plants are coming online that produce the base oil for this fuel. Farmers use castor beans to rotate their fields. This was previously trash, now it can be turned into B100 and cash.

I run it in my diesel and works well.

BTW First post, hello everyone.

[DeepModem Mom]

22. Hi, Radius! Welcome to DU, and keep your informative posts coming!

On edit -- I'm no longer new, and I constantly post inadvertently to the last message. Happens to all of us -- :)

[newyawker99]

26. Hi Radius!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Radius]

21. OOps

Learning new format, my response was to original topic, not the last message..

[loftycity]

24. Welcome Radius ! and interesting post

[Zorra]

23. All my electricity comes from solar panels.

And I have not paid an electric bill for 4 almost years. I live in a fairly sunny area. I regulate my electricity usage and am never without power.

For less than a $2,000 investment, I am almost totally energy self sufficient.

Commercially viable? It is for me.

Huge oil and power companies know that sustainable, non polluting alternative energy sources will cut their profits considerably if used en masse. Wall St. is certainly never going to promote alternative energy until the world runs out of oil.

[Radius]

25. 23 Correct

Thanks lofty.

I agree the mainstream will not promote these technologies. But as individuals we can.

Farmers figured out that they can make money growing components of bio-fuel. The twin cities as well as our local DOT runs b20 in all its trucks and snow plows. I think the air force has started using it in their non combat equipment. Hopefully their increased demand will lower the price of B100. I know a lot of people who would do and run the fuel just to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

I considered making it my self but is costs a few cents more than regular diesel and the work is smelly and expensive. But people do buy non tax diesel and cooking grease (peanut oil) from restaurants and then filter and blend. If you get caught it costs but it is quite common.