Debate on Kerry's Military Record Rages

[wicket]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040826/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_swift_boat_strategy_3

Democrat John Kerry on Thursday lashed out at "the lie that's been put out there" about his Vietnam War service as Republicans and Democrats fiercely debated his military record, sensing a political advantage in keeping the issue alive.

The debate started when a group of critics, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, raised questions about the Democratic presidential candidate's command during the Vietnam War. It has escalated into a tit-for-tat advertising war amid accusations from each campaign that the other side is improperly using independent groups to front their attacks.

Responding to a question at a forum, Kerry said, "All the guys who were with me on my boat, all the guys who were with me in the specific action where they could see it and do it, absolutely document what I said. And as you've seen in the last few days, you're now learning about the lie that's been put out there and how it's been put out there.'

Kerry pointed out that the Navy documented his actions 35 years ago, compared to the recollections of veterans decades later. "Those documents stand, and I am absolutely telling you the God's honest truth about what happened and what took place over there. And so are the other people who've laid it out correctly over the last couple days," he said.

[Democat]

1. Bush is now attacking Kerry directly over Vietnam

The Bush-Cheney campaign hit back at Kerry in a sharply worded letter that criticized Kerry's actions after he returned from war, including his testimony before Congress that U.S. soldiers were committing atrocities in Vietnam.

"You accused your fellow veterans of terrible atrocities and, to this day, you have never apologized," said the letter, drafted by the campaign and signed by several veterans. "Even last night, you claimed to be proud of your postwar condemnation of our actions."

Notice how the Bush campaing is just "hitting back" at Kerry - as if Kerry started this?

Bush, who dodged service in Vietnam is now attacking Kerry over his service.

Will this force Kerry to stop trying to take the "high road" and go on the fucking attack for the rest of the campaign?

Kerry cannot win this on the defensive.

[joefree1]

2. Max Cleland at the Bush ranch was a good move

Bring it on.


Download the free poster/sign here:
http://ediablo.com/eDiabloGallery.html

[bobbieinok]

3. note MAJOR denial that American military did any atrocities

this may play with those who supported the war when it was going on, with today's RW, and maybe with those too young to remember

as a grad student in CA I read at least every week news stories of soldiers cutting off ears to support 'body counts', rapes with pop bottles, etc

anyone who thinks there were no American military atrocities in VN just doesn't want to do the research

[barb162]

interesting subject, isn't it

wait til the GOP starts playing ads soon on Kerry testifying before Congress and they will have him looking like "a traitor" to all the military. And guess how many people will be buying it.

I remember my cousin who was in Vietnam asking me in a letter if I wanted an ear. I wrote back kidding what the heck are you talking about? And he wrote back again asking the same thing, that there were Vietcong ears if I wanted one. When he came back he denied the whole thing. TOTAL DENIAL. I never kept the letters. These guys changed when they were there; savage environment. When they came back they just wanted to go back to normal life and not be spat on by protesters.

It is quite clear the ex-military guys don't want to be reminded of Lt. Calley and the rest of the atrocities that have been documented. Kerry reminds them of those things and thus many hate him.

[Booster]

31. I recently asked a Viet Nam vet if the reason

vets don't talk about Nam is because of things that they did to the enemy and to each other and he "sure, that's the reason." I can't honestly blame any vet for what they did in a war because I'm not so sure I wouldn't be one of them, but this Kerry smear is becoming just ridiculous, and yet not one anchorperson questions the fact that Bush's military records were conveniently "destroyed." Bush, when asked where he was during the disputed time of his service, said he doesn't remember. Hell, ask Laura or Babs or Jeb or Poppy. Can't anyone in this family remember where he was????

[AZCat]

34. I don't know if that's all the reason...

My dad was a doc in Vietnam, and refused to carry a gun. He didn't do anything bad to anyone (quite the contrary) but it's still a topic he doesn't discuss much.

I should ask him about it but it's tough to bring up, especially since we live a ways apart and don't get a lot of time together.

[barb162]

36. War is a psychotic situation

for anyone and for young men it is probably even worse. There you are 19 years old or so and you're supposed to kill people that never did anything to you. Primal scream.

Kerry and the whole Dem campaign need to attack and stop being on the defensive with the Bush campaign charges. Kerry has to start attacking Bush right away from ALL angles; the Bush national guard no show act, joblessness, the promises for 4 years the economy is turning around, etc. He has to stop playing defense and start playng offense. For example, answer a swift-slug question, any question, with Did Bush bleed at any time in Alabama or can you provide any proof Bush was in Alabama?

As you suggest in your last paragraph the Bush record is so ripe for the picking, it is hard to figure why Kerry is not using this ammo...it is sitting there waiting to be used and Bush has just about handed it to Kerry.

[lottie244]

20. We all know that our troops committed atrocities, just ask many of them

It doesn't mean they all did but it's the damn truth that some of them did. The ones in my family admit to it.

[wicket]

22. My family too...

[RhodaGrits]

5. Why are we not talking about the atrocities that have occurred in Iraq?

We've all been horrified by some of the things done by our soldiers in Iraq yet this group keeps insisting Kerry apologize for saying there were atrocities in Vietnam??? As if that couldn't possibly have happened - I just don't get it.

[Born Free]

18. There can be no discussion of Iraq

Some are missing the point, if democrats can't smoke the coward bush out from hiding behind these smear campaigns on his "character" there will be no use for discussions of any issues, as the "character issue" will drown everything out - remember how Al Gore tried to take the high road? If you have a spider on your arm and he bites you then crawls up and bites you again, you don't just sit there and put band-aids on the sores, you stop the spider first. Democrats must do all they can to smoke the bush coward out of hiding, the bush coward must come clean with America, he must be forced to discuss it all, including what he did during these years. Every damn Democrat out there must demand this, we must not let this "character assassination " continues.

[leesa]

33. The POINT of the smears is to distract from their crimes...9-11, Iraq,

Afghanistan, looting the treasury, putting us out of work, destroying our environment, destroying our medical system.
Kerry should not play along with this any longer. He has nothing to defend. He did what was right back then.

[gratuitous]

8. Hold it

If the Bush-Cheney campaign drafted a letter demanding that Kerry apologize, why did Stupidhead have a bunch of veterans sign the letter, as the article states?

This either means that Stupidhead is once again hiding behind someone else to carry out his smear and doesn't have the spine to sign his own letter; or further evidence of coordination and collusion between the Bush campaign and a 527 organization.

[progressivebydesign]

16. Bush counts on the voters being too lazy to look that up!

Kerry's remarks concerned the soldiers that have, themselves, admitted to THOSE atrocities!!!! I'm having a really, really bad fucking day with GOP leaning polls, more Kerry attacks, and other right-wing BS in the media today.. and these people are making it worse. I hate them.. I wish they'd crawl back under their rock and take the voters stupid enough to believe them, with them.

[Inland]

25. Wait, who apologizes?

"You accused your fellow veterans of terrible atrocities and, to this day, you have never apologized," said the letter, drafted by the campaign and signed by several veterans. "Even last night, you claimed to be proud of your postwar condemnation of our actions."

It sounds as if these guys are admitting to terrible atrocities. Or is it saying that Kerry committed atrocities? Shouldn't the people who comitted the atrocities apologize?

[leesa]

30. He should apologize for telling the truth? I know truth is foreign to

these vile creatures, but this is ridiculous. Spin spin spin...never mind the hopeless quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan. Never mind the dozens of serious, treasonous crimes including assisting with 9-11.

[jayfish]

4. "sensing a political advantage in keeping the issue alive. "

There it is. The only reason anyone is talking about this is John Kerry.:eyes: I wonder if he told the AP to publish this story?

Jay

[rocktivity]

6. A wash? I don't think so

The current stage of the battle may have negated any advantage accrued by either side, Republican pollster Neil Newhouse said.

Newhouse said Bush had the advantage when the debate centered on Kerry's actions in Vietnam because the questions raised doubts about Kerry's credibility. Now that the debate has shifted to questions about campaign tactics and political insiders, Newhouse said, Bush lost his advantage.

"Bush gained early, now it's a wash," he said.

Not quite, Newhouse--It may be a wash statistically, but Kerry now has a HUGE psychological advantage. The Bush camp HAD to "shift the debate" because the Smear-Boaters been caught in a lie (leaving Kerry's credibility intact), AND because they had ties to the Bush campaign. And thanks to that commercial showing McCain dissing Bush for smearing him, the public now knows that a) there is no depth to which Bush will not stoop, and b) that McCain is either a flip-flopper du tutti flip-floppers, or the very nut case that Bush had implied that he was. No wonder McCain asked Kerry to stop running it!

Coming out against 527 groups in general isn't the answer. Unless Bush comes out against the Smear-Boaters, the Kerry camp has carte blanche to play up his ties to them, and more important, to take a good hard look at HIS military record.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Inland]

26. Its the victory that keeps on giving

because the Bush tactics have been uncovered. Every attack now will be linked to Bush, every attack will be doubted.

[yardwork]

7. Why isn't Shrub's Vietnam service under debate???

And more importantly, why aren't we discussing Iraq?

The complicity of the media in this stupidity just makes me furious.

[barb162]

9. yep

every time the Democrats answer the stupid lies and charges of the swiftyliars, we are automatically on the defensive. We should be making charges against Bush and his glorious military career and let the Bush campaign team answer charges on Bush. Have 50 or 100 shows like that of these GOP guys trying to figure out where Bush was those years. Put them on the defensive.

[skip fox]

10. Our own resource (reference work with hot links) against Swifties:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=774345&mesg_id=779184

Please support by sending links to relevant stories and by using yourself.

[Window]

23. WOW!

What great material. Thank you.

[smirkymonkey]

11. Fuck this Military Bullshit!

Bottom Line Meme:

"Kerry served his country, Bush* was AWOL" - get it, freepers?!!!

[MoreDemThanMost]

12. How does Kerry deal with Steve Gardner

Gardner was on Kerry's boat and has been disputing Kerry's accounts of their time on the boat together. What is Kerry going to about Gardner? It makes it hard to use the phrase "All the guys who were with me on my boat...absolutely document what I said".

Has Kerry tried to get Gardner on his team and with the Elect Kerry program?

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. Offer to buy him some cheap hooch and a $5 hooker

And he would probably say whatever you wanted him to. That sorry piece of shit can't get his story straight. He would love for us to believe he was actually on the boat where all of this happened, however, he wasn't. The sad immobile pile of shit (is he in a wheelchair or just too fat to move his body?) sits pathetically at these rw "interviews" holding up a fake document claiming that it is somekind of half assed proof for his rant. His latest rant was along the lines that Kerry wrote up and approved his own medals, a charge that was immediately shown to be untrue.

Kerry wouldn't bother to dignify the likes of this turd by giving him any attention.

[The_Casual_Observer]

13. It has taken them quite a while to hoist the flag about the V V A T W

You knew it was coming, just a matter of how & for what reason. chimp has nothing left but to attempt a rewrite of Vietnam history in a few short weeks. It will be quite an undertaking, but they have plenty of resources and apparently a docile public. I expect that they will pull out all the stops on the V V angle from now until November. We haven't begun to see what ugly is yet. Getting rid of the chimp could only be likened to an exorcism or perhaps non medical wart removal.

[wicket]

14. "non medical wart removal"

I like that, heh :)

[erafastball]

17. More Lies

The Bushies have their thugs out their claiming that Kerry has admitted that he wasn't in Cambodia and that he wounded himself for his first purple heart. How can they get away with this? Has anyone seen these quotes?

[skip fox]

19. When you find them, please let me know:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=774345&mesg_id=779184

[Zynx]

21. This controversy is over as far as I'm concerned.

The facts have all stacked up on our side. We should simply, but forcefully, declare that everything they have said to try to question Kerry's record has been proven false on every count by every investigation that has been conducted and all the non-biased sources(even a Kerry basher in Lambert). This is just a sack of lies.

[nagbacalan]

24. Strongly disagree.

Don't take solace from LAT-type editorials vindicating Kerry on a core character matter. Few people read such items. Refute the charges again and again in simple terms. Never forget that a majority of the public still believes Saddam had WMD or active WMD programs. A goodly number also believe in Saddam-Al Qaeda complicity. No quarter! The Guard years should be on the table, and hopefully Kerry re-thinks his stand on the Iraq war knowing what we know now.

[Inland]

27. Its over when we say its over

and I say its not over until Bush condemns the ad's content, not just its funding source.

[wicket]

28. Amen to that

[GOPAgainstGW]

29. Bush-Cheney Doesn't Know How Bad SmearGate Killed Their Re-election!!!

Bush-Cheney have no idea how bad Smeargate kills their chance for re-election. Just a massive fraud and Bush-GOP-SBVT didn't even try to hide it!

Wait till Oct 1, when this massive fraud is exposed and Bush-Cheney get carpet bombed over this deal.
Trust me, you watch. Everyone in the know is just keeping their powder dry until Oct 1.

-------------
* Beltway and Texas Republicans Against Bush-Cheney ’04, Inc. *
------------

[Nancy Waterman]

35. I think Kerry should suggest that Bush's Veitnam record

should get as much scrutiny. In fact, lets look at Bush's medals and examine where they came from and what they mean. Where is his Band of Brothers from Alabama? Why don't we reexamine his insider trading while we are at it.

[mondo joe]

32. It's a Quagmire

Kerry has to do something decisive.

This is a political problem, not an historic one.

Kerry needs to strike fast, hard and without wavering.